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Some 12 years ago, when I and some friends first started discussing this stuff down the pub, and then started getting ourselves tested - first with National Geographic (said I'm Danish and mum's German - she was unimpressed, understandbly), then with Britain's DNA, Ancestry, Living DNA and so on, before those left standing just focused on our Y, with FTDNA and FGC.....?
I recall that the thinking at the time was that about 2/3 of English males were supposedly decendents of the Iberian refuge folk who came north when the ice melted ~10k years back, and the other 3rd arrived during the Angle, Saxon etc ?migration period and as 'Viking' settlers and some Normans (who, if identified, are required to sit at a separate table).?
Does anyone know if these proportions for indigenous Isles males are borne out by the current state of knowledge?
Cheers,
Al
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Al,
??? I'd be happy to sit at the separate table, if I could establish Norman ancestry. Barring more useful archaic DNA, I don't see any way to distinguish between Norman, Anglo-Saxon, or some poorly understood earlier migration. A lot of groups seem have to come from the same general northern Germanic area.
Bruce
On Friday, February 21, 2025 at 12:16:59 PM PST, Al via groups.io <alholdcroft@...> wrote:
Some 12 years ago, when I and some friends first started discussing this stuff down the pub, and then started getting ourselves tested - first with National Geographic (said I'm Danish and mum's German - she was unimpressed, understandbly), then with Britain's DNA, Ancestry, Living DNA and so on, before those left standing just focused on our Y, with FTDNA and FGC.....?
I recall that the thinking at the time was that about 2/3 of English males were supposedly decendents of the Iberian refuge folk who came north when the ice melted ~10k years back, and the other 3rd arrived during the Angle, Saxon etc ?migration period and as 'Viking' settlers and some Normans (who, if identified, are required to sit at a separate table).?
Does anyone know if these proportions for indigenous Isles males are borne out by the current state of knowledge?
Cheers,
Al
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So it's a separate table for me then. I think.
Some 12 years ago, when I and some friends first started discussing this stuff down the pub, and then started getting ourselves tested - first with National Geographic (said I'm Danish and mum's German - she was unimpressed, understandbly), then with Britain's DNA, Ancestry, Living DNA and so on, before those left standing just focused on our Y, with FTDNA and FGC.....?
I recall that the thinking at the time was that about 2/3 of English males were supposedly decendents of the Iberian refuge folk who came north when the ice melted ~10k years back, and the other 3rd arrived during the Angle, Saxon etc ?migration period and as 'Viking' settlers and some Normans (who, if identified, are required to sit at a separate table).?
Does anyone know if these proportions for indigenous Isles males are borne out by the current state of knowledge?
Cheers,
Al
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Not separate, just below the salt.
On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 at 16:42, Piero Sinclair via <pierosinclair= [email protected]> wrote: So it's a separate table for me then. I think.
Some 12 years ago, when I and some friends first started discussing this stuff down the pub, and then started getting ourselves tested - first with National Geographic (said I'm Danish and mum's German - she was unimpressed, understandbly), then with Britain's DNA, Ancestry, Living DNA and so on, before those left standing just focused on our Y, with FTDNA and FGC.....?
I recall that the thinking at the time was that about 2/3 of English males were supposedly decendents of the Iberian refuge folk who came north when the ice melted ~10k years back, and the other 3rd arrived during the Angle, Saxon etc ?migration period and as 'Viking' settlers and some Normans (who, if identified, are required to sit at a separate table).?
Does anyone know if these proportions for indigenous Isles males are borne out by the current state of knowledge?
Cheers,
Al
|
Al,
?
Rather than thinking in terms of proportion of ?males I prefer to think in terms of proportion of y-chromosomes because that is less ambiguous.?
I also find it easier to talk about what haplogroups might have been in a particular place at a particular point in time, and I suspect that only about 10% of the Y-DNA haplogroups in the UK today descend from Y-chromosomes that were in Franco-Cantabria during the LGM.
?
VV
On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 12:16 PM, Al wrote:
Some 12 years ago, when I and some friends first started discussing this stuff down the pub, and then started getting ourselves tested - first with National Geographic (said I'm Danish and mum's German - she was unimpressed, understandbly), then with Britain's DNA, Ancestry, Living DNA and so on, before those left standing just focused on our Y, with FTDNA and FGC.....?
I recall that the thinking at the time was that about 2/3 of English males were supposedly decendents of the Iberian refuge folk who came north when the ice melted ~10k years back, and the other 3rd arrived during the Angle, Saxon etc ?migration period and as 'Viking' settlers and some Normans (who, if identified, are required to sit at a separate table).?
Does anyone know if these proportions for indigenous Isles males are borne out by the current state of knowledge?
Cheers,
Al
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Here is an AI response to the question. I hope it allays any uncertainties. When in doubt, consult the references. The genetic history of the British Isles is complex, with multiple waves of migration and admixture contributing to the current population. Based on the available evidence, here's an overview of the Y chromosome ancestry in the British Isles:
Pre-Iron Age Ancestry
The majority of Y chromosome lineages in the British Isles can be traced back to three main sources:
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Western Hunter Gatherers: A small proportion, likely less than 10%.
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Near Eastern Farmers: Contributed significantly, but exact percentage is unclear.
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Bronze Age Yamnaya migrations: Dominant contribution, with R1b haplogroup becoming prevalent.
By the end of the Bronze Age, it's estimated that over 90% of British and Irish men carried the R1b-L21 Y chromosome, which is considered the quintessential Gaelic paternal lineage.
Later Migrations
The impact of subsequent migrations varied across regions:
Late Iron Age Celtic Migration
Roman Occupation
Anglo-Saxon Migrations
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Significant impact, particularly in eastern and southern England.
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Estimates of Anglo-Saxon contribution range from 10,000 to 200,000 individuals.
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In areas associated with the Danelaw and Danish-Viking settlement, about 60% of Y chromosomes are of Germanic origin.
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Some studies suggest a 50-100% contribution to the English gene pool.
Norman Conquest
Regional Variations
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Central English towns show genetic similarity and are statistically indistinguishable from Frisian samples.
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North Welsh towns differ significantly from Central English towns and from each other.
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Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and northwestern England are dominated by the R1b-L21 subclade, associated with Celtic populations.
It's important to note that these proportions can vary significantly between regions and that the genetic landscape of the British Isles is a result of complex historical processes, including both mass migrations and continuous gene flow over time. Citations:
Answer from Perplexity: pplx.ai/share
Al,
?
Rather than thinking in terms of proportion of ?males I prefer to think in terms of proportion of y-chromosomes because that is less ambiguous.?
I also find it easier to talk about what haplogroups might have been in a particular place at a particular point in time, and I suspect that only about 10% of the Y-DNA haplogroups in the UK today descend from Y-chromosomes that were in Franco-Cantabria during the LGM.
?
VV
On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 12:16 PM, Al wrote:
Some 12 years ago, when I and some friends first started discussing this stuff down the pub, and then started getting ourselves tested - first with National Geographic (said I'm Danish and mum's German - she was unimpressed, understandbly), then with Britain's DNA, Ancestry, Living DNA and so on, before those left standing just focused on our Y, with FTDNA and FGC.....?
I recall that the thinking at the time was that about 2/3 of English males were supposedly decendents of the Iberian refuge folk who came north when the ice melted ~10k years back, and the other 3rd arrived during the Angle, Saxon etc ?migration period and as 'Viking' settlers and some Normans (who, if identified, are required to sit at a separate table).?
Does anyone know if these proportions for indigenous Isles males are borne out by the current state of knowledge?
Cheers,
Al
|
Hi Al, ? Roy's A.I.-generated answer seems roughly correct. Certainly it's picked up on Lara Cassidy's work, Martiniano (2016) plus a couple of older references that I've come across but wouldn't exactly consider cutting-edge any more. ? If we are talking solely about male-line descent, so that we can limit the discussion to Y chromosomes, then we can make some pretty gross simplifications to get an order-of-magnitude guess. Migrants out of the Ice Age refuges are traced by haplogroup I, the Anatolian farmers are traced by haplogroup G, while our haplogroup R traces Bronze Age migrations. England specifically divides very approximately into about 37% R-P312, 20% R-U106, about 2% G2a, about 15% I1 and about 15% I2 (these aren't exact numbers - I couldn't quickly find a representation for England overall). ? Much of the haplogroup I will have come via later migrations from Europe, mainly from the Anglo-Saxons to the Vikings, but probably some earlier migrations too (I'm not sufficiently expert to say). So the percentage of men whose male line has been in the British Isles since the Ice Age is probably closer to Vince's 10%. The Anatolian farmers added very little to this directly, as some of the haplogroup G results probably came from later migrations too. ? R-M269, instead, reflects a much later and almost total population replacement in the British Isles. There have been suggestions that the incoming (mostly) R-M269 migrants to the British Isles outnumbered the natives by up to 10:1, which would again fit with that 10% Ice Age population. ? Subsequent migrations have diluted this mix. Notably, there are strong gradients in both haplogroups I and R-U106 across the British Isles and even within England. It's hard to give numbers. The discussion is better summarised in the than anywhere else I've seen. However, it's clear that a lot of the gradients both west-east across Wales and England, and north-south between Scotland and England, can be traced to a combination of the Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Danelaw and Normans, with the Anglo-Saxons probably providing the dominant genetic contribution among these. ? Note, of course, that these are only the Y-chromosomal results. The autosomal results often show a very different picture (especially in the Anatolian farmers). This is a combination of the fickle nature of Y-chromosomal survival due to dying/daughtering out and the fact that women and men have often historically moved differently to each other. ? Cheers, ? Iain.
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I have found that the best way to narrow down ancestral possibilities is to latch onto what you believe is your most likely prospect. Then in due time you will be proven how wrong you were.
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On Feb 22, 2025, at 5:44 AM, Iain via groups.io <gubbins@...> wrote:
? Hi Al, ? Roy's A.I.-generated answer seems roughly correct. Certainly it's picked up on Lara Cassidy's work, Martiniano (2016) plus a couple of older references that I've come across but wouldn't exactly consider cutting-edge any more. ? If we are talking solely about male-line descent, so that we can limit the discussion to Y chromosomes, then we can make some pretty gross simplifications to get an order-of-magnitude guess. Migrants out of the Ice Age refuges are traced by haplogroup I, the Anatolian farmers are traced by haplogroup G, while our haplogroup R traces Bronze Age migrations. England specifically divides very approximately into about 37% R-P312, 20% R-U106, about 2% G2a, about 15% I1 and about 15% I2 (these aren't exact numbers - I couldn't quickly find a representation for England overall). ? Much of the haplogroup I will have come via later migrations from Europe, mainly from the Anglo-Saxons to the Vikings, but probably some earlier migrations too (I'm not sufficiently expert to say). So the percentage of men whose male line has been in the British Isles since the Ice Age is probably closer to Vince's 10%. The Anatolian farmers added very little to this directly, as some of the haplogroup G results probably came from later migrations too. ? R-M269, instead, reflects a much later and almost total population replacement in the British Isles. There have been suggestions that the incoming (mostly) R-M269 migrants to the British Isles outnumbered the natives by up to 10:1, which would again fit with that 10% Ice Age population. ? Subsequent migrations have diluted this mix. Notably, there are strong gradients in both haplogroups I and R-U106 across the British Isles and even within England. It's hard to give numbers. The discussion is better summarised in the than anywhere else I've seen. However, it's clear that a lot of the gradients both west-east across Wales and England, and north-south between Scotland and England, can be traced to a combination of the Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Danelaw and Normans, with the Anglo-Saxons probably providing the dominant genetic contribution among these. ? Note, of course, that these are only the Y-chromosomal results. The autosomal results often show a very different picture (especially in the Anatolian farmers). This is a combination of the fickle nature of Y-chromosomal survival due to dying/daughtering out and the fact that women and men have often historically moved differently to each other. ? Cheers, ? Iain.
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Al