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Is your EKA information accurate?
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Dear all, ? I've begun to look again in earnest at the phylogeography of R-U106. To begin that, I've started some ground-work. A details the current status of phylogeography and assesses the availability of information. Family matters will likely keep me from this for a while over Christmas, but I have almost completed an analysis of ancient DNA and how it charts the spread of R-U106 as well that I will append to it when I can. ? The take-home message from this document is to make sure your earliest-known ancestor information is up to date. To find this, log into your account, go to your name in the top right, and choose Account Settings. Click on the "Genealogy" tab, then the "Earliest known ancestors" tab below it. You should have a series of text boxes for your paternal ancestor with three pieces of information: a name and birth/death date, a country of origin, and a location. ? R-U106 has 70,626 modern descendants. Of those, 9126 (13%) are in our project (though many of the rest are recent Family Finder additions). Of these, 5805 have stated that their ancestry comes from a specific European country. Of these, 4696 have also given either a identified origin along with the name of their ancestor or a latitude/longitude. Of these, 41% do not match each other. In most cases, this is testers given an earliest-known ancestor in America and a country of origin in the British Isles. This means that we only have complete and fully correct data for 20% of our members. So: ?
The situation is not dire - we can still make reasonable predictions from the 20% of correct data and reasonable assumptions about the 29% of mis-matching data. However, it would be really helpful to have more of this information believable, self-consistent and complete. By doing this, you will be able to improve our estimates of where our ancestors came from. If you speak to your matches, or if you run another project, please also encourage those testers to do the same. ? Best wishes, ? Iain. |
开云体育Dear Iain ? I am very pleased you continue to give this whole area your considered expertise. ? Whilst I have considerable empathy with your desires here, I do think there has to be a quiet revolution in not just thinking and emailing about all this, but in changing access privileges to make much of this far more feasible and easy to perform.? Working experience says that if you are successful with Y-DNA projects – then you push such earliest-known ancestors back in time.? It is the principal goal in doing all this project work. ? Right now, we have about 50 Kits in one project we could action this. ? I wish there was some way that FTDNA could delegate to Project Administrators to make these particular changes on behalf of the members.? Otherwise, it is a fair amount of hassle in each case to change ‘Limited’ access to ‘Advanced’ access. I understand why FTDNA feel they have to do it, but it is a real pain in the arse to do the work-rounds.? Perhaps it could all be spelt out in better detail when people actually join projects – like having screens they have to actively work on and around in order to proceed. ? I don’t know if you have access to recent Guild of One-Name Studies Journals.? There was an article in there recently by Susan Meates discussing this very subject.? She would argue everyone’s Kit should be set to ‘Advanced’.? I would prefer the default option to be ‘Advanced’ with the opt out option to be set to ‘Limited’. ? If you haven’t seen this Guild article – I can dig out a PDF copy for you.? This type of request for more and better information on ‘Most Distant Known Ancestors’ has been going on since at least 2006. ? Brian ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Iain via groups.io
Sent: 14 December 2024 13:35 To: [email protected] Subject: [R1b-U106] Is your EKA information accurate? ? Dear all I've begun to look again in earnest at the phylogeography of R-U106. To begin that, I've started some ground-work. A details the current status of phylogeography and assesses the availability of information. Family matters will likely keep me from this for a while over Christmas, but I have almost completed an analysis of ancient DNA and how it charts the spread of R-U106 as well that I will append to it when I can. The take-home message from this document is to make sure your earliest-known ancestor information is up to date. To find this, log into your account, go to your name in the top right, and choose Account Settings. Click on the "Genealogy" tab, then the "Earliest known ancestors" tab below it. You should have a series of text boxes for your paternal ancestor with three pieces of information: a name and birth/death date, a country of origin, and a location. R-U106 has 70,626 modern descendants. Of those, 9126 (13%) are in our project (though many of the rest are recent Family Finder additions). Of these, 5805 have stated that their ancestry comes from a specific European country. Of these, 4696 have also given either a identified origin along with the name of their ancestor or a latitude/longitude. Of these, 41% do not match each other. In most cases, this is testers given an earliest-known ancestor in America and a country of origin in the British Isles. This means that we only have complete and fully correct data for 20% of our members. So:
The situation is not dire - we can still make reasonable predictions from the 20% of correct data and reasonable assumptions about the 29% of mis-matching data. However, it would be really helpful to have more of this information believable, self-consistent and complete. By doing this, you will be able to improve our estimates of where our ancestors came from. If you speak to your matches, or if you run another project, please also encourage those testers to do the same. Best wishes Iain |
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Iain,
What would you rather have, what a paper trail says definitely or what your DNA matches tell you.? My paper trail goes back to Plymouth, England but my DNA matches are with men with known ancestry in Wiltshire and BigY says we are all one family..
Joe
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开云体育The “EKA” should be always be someone whose specific identity you can verify with documentary evidence.Vince
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Joe, ?? To second what Vince said, you are inferring that your ancestry goes back to Wiltshire, but you only know that it goes back to Plymouth (if you have suitable DNA matches with roots there). In science, we have to distinguish between established theory and new hypotheses, however likely the hypothesis may be. If everyone gives well established facts, then we will all be able to make better inferences.
On Saturday, December 14, 2024 at 02:55:58 PM PST, vineviz via groups.io <vincent@...> wrote:
The “EKA” should be always be someone whose specific identity you can verify with documentary evidence. Vince
Iain,
What would you rather have, what a paper trail says definitely or what your DNA matches tell you.? My paper trail goes back to Plymouth, England but my DNA matches are with men with known ancestry in Wiltshire and BigY says we are all one family..
Joe
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You need a complete paper trail, with no gaps, back to your Earliest Known Ancestor. Your DNA might show you are a match with a known individual (like King Robert II of Scotland, for example) but if you don't know how you descend from him the knowledge is useless. Belinda
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Hi folks, ? Thanks for the input. ? Brian - you'll remember that many of these changes were done in response to GDPR. Sadly, legal fears always trump reasonable requests, since a few bad actors always have a disproportionate effect and spoil things for the rest of us. Some kind of researcher-level access to anonymised data might be possible, but I don't know how the EKA information would factor into that. Meanwhile, all we can do is progress with these kinds of encouragements. ? Bruce - thanks for catching my typo. The 5 and 8 are close on the keypad! ? Joe - as others have mentioned, the EKA information is primary data. We need this to be genealogical information, free of interference by ideas generated from DNA. This lets us put our own spin on what the DNA tells us. ? Cheers, ? Iain. |
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I would not call establishing a solid genetic descendant relationship without a corresponding paper trail as "useless."? ?From a purist paper trail genealogical perspective useless may be appropriate.? For the majority of the genealogists who have significant paper documentation gaps [ like some of mine were burned during the American Civil War] knowing that there are genealogically related branches of the family tree present remains an important fact. Some of the existing paper gaps have the potential to be genetically resolved when whole genome long read results reach a lower price point.?? And yes, I stated whole genome results.? There are other inherited trait and genetic information present across the chromosomes which one should be able to combine with Y specific data. As genealogy transitions to include heritable traits in the genealogical information pool understanding the traits present in the unlinked branches becomes relevant to investigations as to when they may have been introduced into the tree. Wayne?
On Sunday, December 15, 2024 at 02:38:20 AM EST, Belinda Dettmann <belindadettmann@...> wrote:
You need a complete paper trail, with no gaps, back to your Earliest Known Ancestor. Your DNA might show you are a match with a known individual (like King Robert II of Scotland, for example) but if you don't know how you descend from him the knowledge is useless. Belinda
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Wayne, I agree—-your DNA fills the paper gap- it is who we are. ? Pervis? On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 6:27?AM Wayne via <dna_wayne=[email protected]> wrote:
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Hi Iain,
If I am reading your pdf correctly, the number of R-U106 people in Ireland is greatly overstated at 1.55M. The population of Ireland is 5.262 M. Presuming half male, then the male population is 2.631 M. I looked through the results of all Big Y testers on the Y DNA Ireland project. I was able to identify 2,004 non R-U106 results and 136 R-U106 results. This gives a 6.4% for R-U106 in Ireland or 168,000 males.?
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Kevin Terry |
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Sorry. Useless is the wrong word. Less useful than a complete record would be more exact. I am admin of the Stewart DNA Project, where we are lucky enough to be able to define royal Stewart descendants from their Y-DNA signature and their SNPs. The project holds 275 royal Stewarts at present, and these are known to descend from Walter Stewart, Third High Steward of Scotland, R-L746, d 1246.? However we have just 8 testers who can trace their lineage back to him through every generation, and these have proved crucial to our research, as they represent 8 different named ancestral lines, who can be recognised through specific SNPs. If we didn't know the exact lineages we couldn't identify which line was which. I think the testers in those lineages represent about half of our total royal Stewarts, though I haven't counted them lately, so we have plenty of room for improvement. At one stage testers with the Y67 signature started naming their EKA as Alexander 4th High Steward, or his ancestor, Alan Fitz Flaad, but we discouraged that practice as the intermediate links were unknown and it was not helpful in identifying lineages within the family. It was far more useful to identify the EKA with a known pedigree.
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Belinda
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That is a fascinating project, Belinda, and demonstrates what can be accomplished with a few motivated participants. I am curious to know what your thoughts are on the discrepancy between the Globetrekker account of the migration of L745, where S552 lands in Kent ca. 2500 BCE, and the accepted historical narrative of Alan Fitz Flaad the Breton knight. Globetrekker puts S775 in Shropshire by 1750 BCE. Has anyone considered that the lineage might have sojourned in Cornwall before migrating to Brittany? Cheers, Roy On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 at 14:56, Belinda Dettmann <belindadettmann@...> wrote:
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After reading? the many comments to my post, I am inclined to agree with Brian that project administrators should be able to interpret a matching group's Y-DNA results and assign the common ancestor 's location. I can do this with my own results since I administer the Fox Project. I am 100% sure of the Wiltshire location and 95% sure he was Henrie Fox born about 1550 in Devizes, Wiltshire. There are other Foxes matching me with a much earlier ancestor but I don't yet know the location except that it was in England.? This is what project administrators are doing all the time with their matching groups but we don't interfere with an individual's own EKA assignment.? I think that Iain should be interested in these group location assignments but don't see how to convey the information properly.
Joe Fox
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开云体育Let me give a further comment on this issue – as it is important and will continue to swirl around for the foreseeable future. ? At the bottom of any individual’s STR results is this disclaimer posted by FTDNA: ? Read before you download:?We are committed to protecting the privacy of our customers. By downloading any raw data or reports, you hereby indicate that you are the owner of that data or have permission to download the data, and you further indicate your understanding that FamilyTreeDNA cannot in any way guarantee the security or privacy of your downloaded data. Furthermore, you understand that by uploading your raw data to a third party application and linking it to your name, FamilyTreeDNA kit number, email address, or any other identifying information, the security of your raw data and record is further put at risk and may lead to the violation of FamilyTreeDNA Privacy Policy. By downloading your raw data, you assume the liability for any breach of privacy and release FamilyTreeDNA from any privacy violation that results either directly or indirectly from the downloaded raw data and/or upload to a third party application. ? ---------------- ? On the other hand, we are faced with the practical problem of how you run a Y-DNA surname project.? I run the Swann/Swan DNA Project in an Excel Spreadsheet.? This is a common enough surname and too large you can never run it as a One-Name project. You can add extra information in a Spreadsheet in terms of columns.? If people spend money on a DNA test – especially a BigY-700 test – they want to see how their DNA results fit in to a wider picture. ? At the top of this Spreadsheet, I have placed the following wording: ? PLEASE NOTE: THIS SPREADSHEET IS INTENDED FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY AND SHOULD NOT BE UPLIFTED TO ANY WEBSITE. IT CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL PERSONAL INFORMATION ON LIVING PEOPLE. FAILURE TO HEED THIS REQUEST MAY LEAD TO AN INDIVIDUAL BEING HELD IN BREACH OF THE GENERAL DATA PROTECTION REGULATIONS (GDPR) WHICH APPLY ACROSS EUROPE, EVEN TO EXTERNAL PARTIES. ? Personally, I would have no problem in signing something like this as a Surname Project Administrator if it would allow me to make changes to the EKA information about male testers in this surname project.? Otherwise, why are we doing all this except to make such progress.? I just want the minimal amount of hassle to be able to do this quickly, and the current ‘Advanced’ versus ‘Limited’ system is anything but. ? There is also the separate argument that disclosing Y-STR or Y-SNP data to anyone, has low biomedical implications, in my opinion. What criminals want are the personal names, addresses and associated email addresses. ? ---------- ? How you manage autosomal DNA results is a separate set of questions – and is why I have run the Swan(n) Surname Project as a ‘Closed’ DNA Project – you cannot join without saying why you want to join and why you are interested in the surname.? I try to make it clear that we will not be able to give them much practical help to such autosomal folk beyond pointing them towards videos and other information. ? There is a residual pool of old Kits, before my time as an administrator – which are essentially orbiting space junk. They date back to the early days of autosomal DNA testing. ? -------- ? What is likely to hit the headlines over here is if 23andMe goes bankrupt, and who will then curate its genetic data pool [?].? This company (Atlas Biomedical) - which I had never heard of before, caused national headlines a couple of months ago when it went bankrupt – but it does seem to have had links to Russia in its business model. ? . ? Someone has to be prepared to shoulder this risk about making changes to the EKA, whilst minimising the hassle involved in making such changes.? I am suggesting this is one way of making such information better than the current system.? But it all depends on FTDNA and what is involved practically in terms of computer programming in making something like this possible. ? Maybe David Vance could start to take this on in his new role [?]. ? Brian ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Joe Fox via groups.io
Sent: 16 December 2024 04:14 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] Is your EKA information accurate? ? After reading? the many comments to my post, I am inclined to agree with Brian that project administrators should be able to interpret a matching group's Y-DNA results and assign the common ancestor 's location. I can do this with my own results since I administer the Fox Project. I am 100% sure of the Wiltshire location and 95% sure he was Henrie Fox born about 1550 in Devizes, Wiltshire. There are other Foxes matching me with a much earlier ancestor but I don't yet know the location except that it was in England.? This is what project administrators are doing all the time with their matching groups but we don't interfere with an individual's own EKA assignment.? I think that Iain should be interested in these group location assignments but don't see how to convey the information properly. ? Joe Fox |
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Responses below. I've unexpectedly found myself a bit short of time for replies due to family misfortunes, so brief responses only I'm afraid. ? Kevin - thanks. Order of magnitude typo when copying. Should be 155k, not 1.55M. Will fix in next revision. ? Roy - Globetrekker is a nightmare for putting haplogroups in England when they should not be. This greatly affects R-U106 and is caused by poor treatment of sampling bias and the possibility of missing data in poorly-tested countries. ? Joe - I'm interested in group assignments. I'd like to take a root-and-branch trawl through R-U106 for this kind of thing. But not until at least after Christmas! ? Brian - your thoughts are always welcome and networking never ceases to amaze me. I'm not sure how to take all this forward right now, but I'll try to bear it in mind. ? Cheers, ? Iain. |
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Brian, Iain, Some notions that spring to mind with regard to propelling the project forward. I met Skoglund when I visited the Reich lab back in 2014, and Reich sat in on the discussion. Probably too long ago for them to remember but it could be an icebreaker should you wish to open a contact. I also had dinner with Martin Sikora of the Willerslev lab on the occasion of the 2018 conference in Vienna, as well as Kristian Kristiansen, with whom I had already had some correspondence. He is sort of the grand old man of Bronze age archaeology, and a dogged proponent of DNA integration. Also at the conference in Vienna and an earlier genetic genealogy conference in Dublin was Andrew Millard () who, although his work is not concerned directly with DNA, is nevertheless keen on the subject. In fact, he collaborated in the development of DNA Painter. With proper introduction any one of these individuals might be lured into a project to bridge the shrinking gap between genetic genealogy and archaeogenetics. In case anyone is interested in the state of ancient DNA back in 2018, the videos I made of some of the presentations at the Vienna conference are online at the link?. The playlist seems to have been dismantled but the search will take you there. On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 at 13:16, Iain via <gubbins=[email protected]> wrote:
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There is no "refusal to admit" anything, just an awareness of what the models they are using are capable of given the data that users provide.
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Vince
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On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 12:44 PM, <genesweetser@...> wrote:
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Roy, as a dedicated member of the R-U106 project (through my brother's test, with EKA in Germany) I am well aware of the problems Globetrekker has with testers from the continent which Globetrekker insists must have travelled to Britain before returning to the continent. These there-and-back paths don't only occur in R-U106 but in many other haplogroups as well, including R-L746, and there are frequent queries about these in other online discussion groups. In my opinion a there-and-back path should always raise suspicions as to the applicablity of the Globetrekker algorithm. These results come from the overwhelming bias of testers with British ancestry and Iain has drawn our attention to these problems in the past. In other words, I don't believe, on the basis of Globetrekker, that the ancient Stewarts were in Cornwall before they were in Brittany.
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Belinda
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Wayne
Kevin Terry