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2 matches in block tree but no big y matches


 

Is this a quirk of the system if not where would this match be?

Theirs an option an $99 to download this data.??

Is their any benefit to this and where else can it be uploaded.

Jason


 

Jason,
when you open your block tree page you should see all of your matches! You will not see them in your Big Y match list as they are probably over the 30 YSNP threshold for FTDNA two test matches.?



On Monday, June 17, 2024 at 07:21:43 AM UTC, jason jordan <jasonmjordan76@...> wrote:


Is this a quirk of the system if not where would this match be?

Theirs an option an $99 to download this data.??

Is their any benefit to this and where else can it be uploaded.

Jason


 

Jason,
when you open your block tree page you should see all of your distant and recent matches! You will not see them in your Big Y match list if they are? over the 30 YSNP threshold for FTDNA two testers.?


On Monday, June 17, 2024 at 07:21:43 AM UTC, jason jordan <jasonmjordan76@...> wrote:


Is this a quirk of the system if not where would this match be?

Theirs an option an $99 to download this data.??

Is their any benefit to this and where else can it be uploaded.

Jason


 

On thr block tree for my terminal group it shows 2 but theirs no big y matches at all.

That was expected from iains response is their any benefit to downloading and where can these results be uploaded.


On Mon, 17 Jun 2024, 22:43 C.B. via , <irishZ156=[email protected]> wrote:
Jason,
when you open your block tree page you should see all of your distant and recent matches! You will not see them in your Big Y match list if they are? over the 30 YSNP threshold for FTDNA two testers.?


On Monday, June 17, 2024 at 07:21:43 AM UTC, jason jordan <jasonmjordan76@...> wrote:


Is this a quirk of the system if not where would this match be?

Theirs an option an $99 to download this data.??

Is their any benefit to this and where else can it be uploaded.

Jason


 




On Tue, 18 Jun 2024, 07:19 jason jordan via , <jasonmjordan76=[email protected]> wrote:

On thr block tree for my terminal group it shows 2 but theirs no big y matches at all.

That was expected from iains response is their any benefit to downloading and where can these results be uploaded.


On Mon, 17 Jun 2024, 22:43 C.B. via , <irishZ156=[email protected]> wrote:
Jason,
when you open your block tree page you should see all of your distant and recent matches! You will not see them in your Big Y match list if they are? over the 30 YSNP threshold for FTDNA two testers.?


On Monday, June 17, 2024 at 07:21:43 AM UTC, jason jordan <jasonmjordan76@...> wrote:


Is this a quirk of the system if not where would this match be?

Theirs an option an $99 to download this data.??

Is their any benefit to this and where else can it be uploaded.

Jason


 

Jason,

The Block Tree is designed to display not only Big Y matches (it appears you don't have any) but also certain Y-STR matches who have taken the Big Y test. ?I suspect this is what you are seeing.

If you look among your Y111, Y67, and Y37 matches these two men should appear there.

Most people will receive absolutely no benefit from uploading their raw Big Y results to 3rd party sites, and I generally don't recommend that people worry about it.

Vince


 

The benefit of using 3rd party sites is that comparisons can occur against individuals who have done whole genome instead of BigY.? 3rd party sites also utilize institutionally standard software packages which occasionally may identify variants which FTDNA's processing and reporting settings do not identify.? ?One does need to have "close" matches with data in those system in order to get value out of the results and understand where FTDNA reporting may be incomplete or inaccurate.

- Wayne

On Tuesday, June 18, 2024 at 07:52:16 AM EDT, vineviz <vincent@...> wrote:


Jason,

The Block Tree is designed to display not only Big Y matches (it appears you don't have any) but also certain Y-STR matches who have taken the Big Y test. ?I suspect this is what you are seeing.

If you look among your Y111, Y67, and Y37 matches these two men should appear there.

Most people will receive absolutely no benefit from uploading their raw Big Y results to 3rd party sites, and I generally don't recommend that people worry about it.

Vince


 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I agree with Wayne on this. I can tell you that I personally and other McMillans and McCallums under FGC11674 have benefitted from 3rd party analysis. Mainly from other uploading results from elsewhere, and also from variants it has helped us to identify.?

We have a few participants who¡¯s closest match has tested elsewhere and were found through 3rd party analysis.?

Robert McMillan?



 

Is the standard vcf download sufficient or is it required to pay the $99 for the bam file from ftdna


On Tue, 18 Jun 2024, 19:00 Robert McMillan via , <tensawmac=[email protected]> wrote:
I agree with Wayne on this. I can tell you that I personally and other McMillans and McCallums under FGC11674 have benefitted from 3rd party analysis. Mainly from other uploading results from elsewhere, and also from variants it has helped us to identify.?

We have a few participants who¡¯s closest match has tested elsewhere and were found through 3rd party analysis.?

Robert McMillan?



 

You need the BAM file.? It contains the "raw data" sequences.? The VCF file represents the analyzed results from the analysis pipeline.


On Wednesday, June 19, 2024 at 02:18:36 AM EDT, jason jordan <jasonmjordan76@...> wrote:


Is the standard vcf download sufficient or is it required to pay the $99 for the bam file from ftdna


On Tue, 18 Jun 2024, 19:00 Robert McMillan via , <tensawmac=[email protected]> wrote:
I agree with Wayne on this. I can tell you that I personally and other McMillans and McCallums under FGC11674 have benefitted from 3rd party analysis. Mainly from other uploading results from elsewhere, and also from variants it has helped us to identify.?

We have a few participants who¡¯s closest match has tested elsewhere and were found through 3rd party analysis.?

Robert McMillan?



 

Hi Jason,


Should you spend the $99 to get the BAM file? That depends on what use you're going to make of it.


First, let's understand the different classes of files. Put simply, FASTQ is the set of reads that come out of the DNA sequencer - strings of As, Gs, Cs and Ts (with information about the confidence in those reads) that represent the chopped up bits of DNA that have been read. The BAM format is what you get when you align those reads to a particular reference sequence - normally this is hg38, but it could be realigned to one of the new T2T sequences. The VCF format is what you get when you run through the BAM file to look for differences from that reference sequence - this is what you see in your FTDNA account and what you can download for free; it's very useful for people like me to check the details of variants and whether specific locations are covered.


Now let's consider what you can do with a BAM file that you can't do with a VCF file. Primarily, you can either read it yourself (which most people aren't going to do, because it's fairly technically involved), or you can pay more money to upload it to a third-party comparison site like YFull (€45) or Full Genomes Corp. ($50). You also then have a copy of your DNA results in case of a company-ending calamity at Family Tree DNA.


What do you gain by using these third-party sites? As Wayne points out, you can have your results compared to Y-DNA testers from other companies. This can be really useful for people who have tested outside FTDNA, but FTDNA makes up such a huge proportion of the Y-DNA testing market that you're unlikely to find a close match - however, there's nothing stopping you loading up their phylogenic tree and having a look to see if one exists in your haplogroup already. These sites also give you a "second opinion" on the SNP calls in your test results, including a realignment of your DNA to more up-to-date reference sequences like T2T.


Is that worth it for you, and worth the ~$150 it's going to cost you? It's worth remembering what your goals are. Many people are fixated on a Pokemon-like "got to get them all" attitude towards finding new SNPs. While finding more SNPs can be useful, they are only as useful as the information you can get out of them and the relationships they trace. That means these kind of third-party analyses aren't worth it for most testers, except those who fall into one of a few categories. Some of the most common are:
(1) You have an addiction to cool tools to analyse your DNA, in which case I'd like $100k for a research project. :)
(2) You have checked your haplogroup at YFull and found that you have a haplogroup member outside FTDNA that you really want to be compared to.
(3) You really care about specific STR results in your own test for some reason.


There are all sorts of intangible ramifications from using these third-party tools. The negatives include increasing the exposure of your DNA to malign groups; the positives include making your haplogroup more visible, encouraging competition among DNA-testing companies, etc. All of these are complex in their own right and these kind of BAM downloads / third-party uploads may not be the best way to address any of them. However, historically, when there's been a third-party service that Family Tree DNA have found useful, they've adopted that technology into their own system. We've seen this with Alex Williamson's tree interface (which became the Block Tree), YFull and my TMRCA estimates (which seeded the Discover platform), Dave Vance and Hunter Provyn's SNP Tracker and Phylogeography tools (which, despite the algorithmic limitations, have become co-opted into Globetrekker). Arguably the release of Y-DNA haplogroups from Family Finder tests comes out of tools like MorleyDNA's too. If you think these kind of third-party tools will be useful, then giving them support can eventually make them available to everyone.

?

In summary, the benefit of paying for this download really depends on you having a case for needing it. Speaking personally, I downloaded my BAM file because I have older test and it was free, but I can't say I've made much use of it. I got FGC to analyse my file and report and name my novel variants back when that mattered, but that has less relevance now. There's nothing currently that these third-party sites have been able to offer me that is both of value to me and that I can't get from using a VCF file. Your case may be different, but I'd encourage you to identify an end goal before spending more money.


Cheers,


Iain.


 

Thanks iain.? I don't think theirs any benefit and my current y111 testers shared surname financially can't afford the upgrade and I said don't both as I believe we would all be the same anyway.

For us it appears lack of genealogical records to confirm our connection which this will not resolve.

I am in the uk and they are all in the states.

Jason


On Wed, 19 Jun 2024, 12:48 Iain via , <gubbins=[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Jason,


Should you spend the $99 to get the BAM file? That depends on what use you're going to make of it.


First, let's understand the different classes of files. Put simply, FASTQ is the set of reads that come out of the DNA sequencer - strings of As, Gs, Cs and Ts (with information about the confidence in those reads) that represent the chopped up bits of DNA that have been read. The BAM format is what you get when you align those reads to a particular reference sequence - normally this is hg38, but it could be realigned to one of the new T2T sequences. The VCF format is what you get when you run through the BAM file to look for differences from that reference sequence - this is what you see in your FTDNA account and what you can download for free; it's very useful for people like me to check the details of variants and whether specific locations are covered.


Now let's consider what you can do with a BAM file that you can't do with a VCF file. Primarily, you can either read it yourself (which most people aren't going to do, because it's fairly technically involved), or you can pay more money to upload it to a third-party comparison site like YFull (€45) or Full Genomes Corp. ($50). You also then have a copy of your DNA results in case of a company-ending calamity at Family Tree DNA.


What do you gain by using these third-party sites? As Wayne points out, you can have your results compared to Y-DNA testers from other companies. This can be really useful for people who have tested outside FTDNA, but FTDNA makes up such a huge proportion of the Y-DNA testing market that you're unlikely to find a close match - however, there's nothing stopping you loading up their phylogenic tree and having a look to see if one exists in your haplogroup already. These sites also give you a "second opinion" on the SNP calls in your test results, including a realignment of your DNA to more up-to-date reference sequences like T2T.


Is that worth it for you, and worth the ~$150 it's going to cost you? It's worth remembering what your goals are. Many people are fixated on a Pokemon-like "got to get them all" attitude towards finding new SNPs. While finding more SNPs can be useful, they are only as useful as the information you can get out of them and the relationships they trace. That means these kind of third-party analyses aren't worth it for most testers, except those who fall into one of a few categories. Some of the most common are:
(1) You have an addiction to cool tools to analyse your DNA, in which case I'd like $100k for a research project. :)
(2) You have checked your haplogroup at YFull and found that you have a haplogroup member outside FTDNA that you really want to be compared to.
(3) You really care about specific STR results in your own test for some reason.


There are all sorts of intangible ramifications from using these third-party tools. The negatives include increasing the exposure of your DNA to malign groups; the positives include making your haplogroup more visible, encouraging competition among DNA-testing companies, etc. All of these are complex in their own right and these kind of BAM downloads / third-party uploads may not be the best way to address any of them. However, historically, when there's been a third-party service that Family Tree DNA have found useful, they've adopted that technology into their own system. We've seen this with Alex Williamson's tree interface (which became the Block Tree), YFull and my TMRCA estimates (which seeded the Discover platform), Dave Vance and Hunter Provyn's SNP Tracker and Phylogeography tools (which, despite the algorithmic limitations, have become co-opted into Globetrekker). Arguably the release of Y-DNA haplogroups from Family Finder tests comes out of tools like MorleyDNA's too. If you think these kind of third-party tools will be useful, then giving them support can eventually make them available to everyone.

?

In summary, the benefit of paying for this download really depends on you having a case for needing it. Speaking personally, I downloaded my BAM file because I have older test and it was free, but I can't say I've made much use of it. I got FGC to analyse my file and report and name my novel variants back when that mattered, but that has less relevance now. There's nothing currently that these third-party sites have been able to offer me that is both of value to me and that I can't get from using a VCF file. Your case may be different, but I'd encourage you to identify an end goal before spending more money.


Cheers,


Iain.