Keyboard Shortcuts
Likes
Search
R-L21>>>>A11001 man found in Britain per Roberta Estes 'DNAeXplained' email
Sample:?I2611 (Male) Location:? Age:?3092-2905 calBCE Y-DNA:? mtDNA:? I've never sent anybody a copy of Roberta's? DNA newsletter emails before, but I'll make an exception now because of the content she reveals. The entire sample list of British Isles ancient burial sites was sent to me by Roberta but is not included here as Gmail automatically truncated it. I've enclosed the file with hundreds of mtdna and yDNA that Roberta mentioned plus many more from continental Europe. If you could get her original email you could click on the blue highlighted "location" and it would take you directly there via Maps. The file I've enclosed gives the coordinates for each location.? It also gives the age as "3092-2905 calBCE"? for sample I2611 man above but it is actually 4400 years BP in the file after the radiocarbon "calibrated" years are adjusted. The above L21 man is row #1785 in the file. It also mentions "questionable" which I think may be referring to the terminal SNP of R-A11001 which Alex W's Big Tree chart ages as about 2800 years old (click on the brown block -- on Alex's chart --above the block with A11001 to get it's age, shown at the bottom of the page that comes up. The TMRCA of any block is actually the exact age of the SNP, or block of? equivalent SNPs, immediately below it). So, 2800 ybp? for A11001 per Alex's chart is right, or the bones they tested actually are 4400 ybp but the A11001 SNP call is actually incorrect. If it is incorrect, the L21 call is probably correct. I also noticed a L513 man found:? Sample:?I13730 (Male) Location:? Age:?390-202 calBCE Y-DNA:? mtDNA:? This S5668 man age is 2240 years BP in the file and is found on row 2066. Row 1797 lists a Canada Farm, UK, 3900 ybp L21 beaker EEF man Row 2051, a 2260 ybp DF1(L513) man from Orkney For those of you interested, have fun looking through the file. Best, Daryl ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: DNAeXplained - Genetic Genealogy <donotreply@...> Date: Tue, Feb 1, 2022, 1:11 PM Subject: [New post] DNA from 459 Ancient British Isles Burials Reveals Relationships – Does Yours Match? To: <class1driver@...>
|
||||||||||
Darrel, This is serendipity at it's weirdest!? At some point last night I woke up with the oddest dream recollection about Y DNA re-classification in the R1b world!! And then your email is the first thing I see this morning!!!!? Thanks for this, It IS fascinating...even though it really doesn't nail anything down in my particular case other than reassessing SNP aging and our general timeline, which is cool all by itself. Cheers Brad Brad McGuire Lt. Commander, USN (Ret) CVMA Member "Bone" ISOGG mbr FTDNA # 143742 YFull # YF06716/YF68660 ???? Fir Manach Mag Uidhir ???????????? of the ??????????? Menapii On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 6:28 AM Class1 Driver <class1driver@...> wrote:
|
||||||||||
Daryl - thanks for putting Roberta's take on these findings into the mix. The key portion of her reporting for me is this:
"?haplogroup R-L21/M529 went from 0% in the Neolithic era (3950-2450 BCE,) or about 5950-4450 years ago) in Britain to 90% in all of Britain in the Early Bronze Era (2450-1550 BCE or 4450-3550 years ago), then dropped slowly to about 70% in the Iron Age in Western England and Wales, then 50% in western Britain and Wales and 20% in Central and Eastern Britain in the Modern Era." That event (when 90% of Britons were DF13) happened after the DF1/L513 'starburst' and subsequent out-migrations. These movements were likely caused by the?"4.2 Kiloyear" global climate event.? The individual kits found in the sw of the British Isle were more affected by subsequent late Bronze and Iron age incursions by later Celt tribes and trade with Galicia, Brittany, etc. along the Atlantic coast prior to the Romans and as reported on by others. This is when the Veneti might have participated however there is the period 1500 BCE when the precursors of the tribes the Roman found among the Borders might better account for our haplogroup history. In other words, the L21 displacement was not as great in the North because it was already full of L513 descendant clusters. And they were not similarly displaced as much as the ancient peoples in the sw of the Isle due to their relative isolation in the north. Later still was the Dal Riata movement into the north highlands. But there is no reason to believe that every L513 cluster was Dal Riata if any was. The precursor societies since the middle bronze age (Norse, Normans, Bretons, Gaul, etc.) were all multi-ethnic, etc. And that might be the major message of the emergence of Bell Beaker folks generally - that tribal ethnicity identities were much reduced in favor of cultural identies (multi-ethnic). Language, worship and burial practices were 'learned and appropriated' in cohesion with living practices. It's possible that not every L513 cluster followed these same cultural transformations. In fact, it's equally likely that a continental migration from Europe to the British Isle happened before Bell Beaker culture blossomed. And that p-celtic language adoption came after they were already isolated geographically. I'm attaching the timeline I use as a reference tool. It recognizes YFull SNP ages and calculations exclusively for uniformity purposes. |
||||||||||
Hi Leake, and others: A short note to let you know that I am mentally engaged in these topics, but feel woefully inadequate in responding in an intelligently learned fashion -- probably because I m not very learned. ;-)? But I do find it all very interesting. My slow brain, and other problems, slow down my response time considerably, but I do have lots of unfinished 'drafts' in my email account.? I'd like to hear what others have to say in the meantime. 'Meanwhile' my myopic brain focuses on dates of SNP births even though I agree that cultural influences affect human behaviour more than anything else. Your research and organizational skills are impressive Leake. Thank you for what you do. I have to accept that I'm not very good at research or organizing -- but I really like to quote other people's work. Keep it coming. Here comes some quick rambles. I don't much like Yfull dating, and even some others' dating, even though I'm not very mathematical. Unfortunately it all comes down to what is a good SNP and what kind of testing took place. Definitely complicated stuff. But I do know of at least one other person who agrees with my belief that L21 man was probably born about 5200 years ago. So far? the Bell Beaker arrival in the British Isles seems to coincide closely with the arrival of L21 man there -- around the same time as the Amesbury Archer and 'Companion' (who tested L21) arrived/died around 2400 bce. I know Mike W has much more indepth knowledge about it than me, as I never really studied it like he has. I do find it very interesting to trace human movements through yDNA. If someone has found L21? bones in the "Isles" before 2500-2600 BCE I'd be very interested in knowing about it. Another 'wild' statement coming.? Even though I think Ian McDonald's SNP TMRCA for DF13 is likely accurate, I question? most everything else he dates. Why? I don't think he uses enough data, unless he's changed recently. Similar to Yfull I think his choices of acceptable SNPs are too rigid, and his data population may also be too small. If he could do a recent indepth analysis of SNP ageing I would eagerly analyse it, as he is no doubt has good skills. Meanwhile I'll hold to my L21 age belief, as well as my L193 age belief that's close to around 1000 BCE with a TMRCA that's close to 50-100 CE, but could easily be swayed to? a 100 or so BCE date. My brain is already beginning to hurt, as well as my eyes. ;-) I hope others will jump into this format and let us know what they think. Best, Daryl On Sun, Feb 6, 2022, 1:27 PM Leake Little <leakelittle@...> wrote: Daryl - thanks for putting Roberta's take on these findings into the mix. The key portion of her reporting for me is this: |
||||||||||
Thanks for sharing.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Monday, February 7, 2022, 3:43 AM, Class1 Driver <class1driver@...> wrote:
|
||||||||||
Leake, is there any particular reason you have "Formation of L193 (aka S5982) on British Isle"?? Back at 1600 BC we don't know where L513 or S5668 people were. We just know we have the Iron Age people (skeletons) for R-S5668 at Kent and R-Z16400 in the Orkney Islands.? Both face the North Sea. Apparently L513 was good at sea travel. I definitely could see an L193 origination on the Isles but I don't have any evidence.? We know this paper concludes there was a large influx from the continent about 800 BC. The paper supports the theory that P Celtic/Brythonic came in or developed on Great Britain in this timeframe.. There is a chance we could have come with this Late Bronze Age immigration. |
||||||||||
Lactase tolerance on the Isle and the data we have that it's not found in ancient graves anywhere else. It's an informed hypothesis at this stage. But it's also the simplest explanation for what we see among the population data we have. The historical interpretations don't fit the data and are not definitive in any case. There's no historical line to any of the celebrated Norman or Breton lord's and no historical accounts of just regular life. Marvin Harris and his research into cultural materialism informs this opinion as much as the population biology models of species diffusion across time and space. This is not a legal case. It's a preponderance of the evidence. Certainly not beyond a reasonable doubt. Thoughts? On Mon, Feb 7, 2022, 7:57 AM Tiger Mike <mwwdna@...> wrote:
|
||||||||||
I apologize. I didn’t mean to sound like I needed a legal ?case. I just haven’t seen anything that indicates a Scottish origin except the modern distribution. I do think there was a lot of movement so I discount that a little.?
I will look a little more at the milk tolerance.? -- For R1b Y DNA questions please post on one of the two forums: R1b Y DNA Project Facebook Group -? R1b All Subclades Project Activity Feed - |
||||||||||
Oh no don't apologize I'm just trying to communicate clearly. These ideas are presented to be commented upon or debated. I expect to answer some questions and be present.
I was near the end of my first reply when I mistakenly closed the tab without sending. I'm not relying on the present distribution as I really don't have precise data on that. But there is a study from CTS for NatGeo demonstrating that ancient populations (4500 ybp) can be 'placed' with primary research:?? What I really wish to open up is a discussion about earlier dates, earlier migrations, and the use of population biology/natural science tools and methods to explore surname development along the Borders. We don't have any exacting location data but we have observable gaps in time, known clusters, lines below clusters, etc. The general story on lactase tolerance appears to be that it was an essential mutation of the Yamna - and that those people carried herd animals with them. The diffusion of the lactase-tolerant gene was not uniform. In fact it shows up in southern Europe earlier than elsewhere. It arrives on the British Isle before it emerges in central Europe later (closer to 980BCE). We also seem to have 'starburst' SNP formation events with multiple surviving lines in some cases (L21, L513, L193, Z17296, etc.) vs. linear, cascading mutations without defining clusters over the same time period. These patterns point to differing life histories among the lines themselves. Some are long and lean, others are more bushy over the same period, etc. These patterns suggest different aspects of these histories - food/climate population events, endogamy, active/sedentary, etc. even before we find ancient skeletons. Here are links to the discussion about lactase tolerance gene mutations and their spread (locations, dates) for background: |
||||||||||
The article on the Battle of Tollense, circa 1200 BC, says "It appears that by simply possessing this one genetic change, past
European individuals with the ability to digest lactose had a six
percent greater chance of producing children than those who could not.
This is the strongest evidence we have for positive natural selection in
humans."
My interpretation is that people who maintained livestock and used their milk had advantages in access to nutrients and drinking liquids. In those societies, the lucky people who were able to digest lactose well were healthier and had more children that were healthier. I'm not sure how to use that information but we might want to try to trace the spread of dairy practices. ? On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 2:02 PM Leake Little <leakelittle@...> wrote:
-- For R1b Y DNA questions please post on one of the two forums: R1b Y DNA Project Facebook Group -? R1b All Subclades Project Activity Feed - |