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[R1b-L513 Project] R1b-L513 Descendant Tree update

 

Mike:

Your Descendant Tree chart has Galbraith and McIntyre descending from Z17816, but they should descend from Z17813.

Do you know how these two men came to share/test the same SNP in BY34838?? Very interesting. Is this an example of where Alex's chart has fallen behind?? I suspected this McIntyre was different from the other L193 McIntyres, especially since he (347690) and another McIntyre (57594) share the 640=13 STR and the latter does not share the very slow moving 434=10 which the other group of McIntyres (BY2634 suspected) share.

The 434=10 STR? has been seen in L193-only men who have tested positive for BY2634, including Wood, Mcintyre, Ferguson, and Wilson. It seems apparent that 434=10 is a predictor marker for BY2634 amongst L193 men.

Recommendation for McIntyres: Those with 434=10 should test for BY2634, and possibly for some of the 7 private SNPs held by #676804 McIntyre. Click on the surname on Alex's chart to access private SNPs?

#57594 Mcintyre should test for the BY34838 SNP held by #347690 Mcintyre.

For the 7 McIntyres I've bcc'd with this email, please feel free to contact me for any clarifications. I match you all at 67 STR markers, and you are all at least L193/S5982, as I am: Darrel, George, William, Fred, Scot, Albert, Ted.? See our public L513 Haplogroup Project pages here?
There are two types of Y-DNA mutations: STRs, and SNPs.? STRs are what are used on our personal Matches pages. SNPs, often referred to as Haplogroups, are the only mutations we can use to build our paternal trees.? See the left side blue background of the Descendant Tree Chart on the above link to our Background page for men descending from L193 man. L193 man was likely born around 2900 years ago, but all L193 men share a common paternal ancestor born approximately around 200 AD (my personal calculation).



Best,

Daryl?


On Feb 6, 2018 9:29 PM, "mwwdna@... [R1b-L513-Project]" <R1b-L513-Project@...> wrote:
?

I've updated the R1b-L513 Descendant Tree.? A PNG graphics version is on the R-L513 project About pages.



A PDF version is here.



There are quite a few changes so please review them!

This should align very closely with the R-L513 project Y Classic and Colorized reports as well as the actual FTDNA haplotree for L513.



FTDNA has been more responsive in reviewing new Big Y results and automatically naming SNPs and adding branches.? Still, some branches can and have fallen through the cracks so we need to watch closely as new Big Y and Pack results come in.

There seems to been some benefit to the conversion to Hg38 as I've noticed some people that were re-assigned haplogroup labels to be more detailed and a few more branches were identified. I think this is because the Hg38 reference model is improved so FTDNA was able to make more confident variant (SNP) calls.

The only misfortune is that now the Big Tree has fallen behind. It is the best view of the tree, in my opinion, because it shows phylogenetic equivalent SNPs without having to click on pop-up buttons, etc.? However, I don't see how it can keep pace at this point. It will still be important and we still need to submit our VCF raw results files to the Y DNA Data Warehouse, but I don't think we can assume the Big Tree is the most current or correct tree since it is a mix of the old Hg19 VCF files and new Hg38 VCF files and has to make assumptions in some cases because it does not use the BAM file data like YFull or FTDNA do.

Mike W

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Thanks Mike:

I've corrected my error with 6 McIntyres (7th is unreachable).

All:

It is a momentous time in FTDNA history!? I never suspected that FTDNA would get ahead of the citizen scientists in regards to the Haplotree -- but they have, as Alex's NGS Chart? doesn't yet reflect the 8 SNPs shared by Galbraith and Mcintyre. Interestingly, I count 8 good SNPs in Galbraith's private SNPs page (click on the surname).? I suspect that Mcintyre will have more than 8 private good SNPs.

I continue to get Matches, almost daily, especially at 25 markers.? I notice I have a couple of McIntire matches at 2 and 3 GDS at 37 markers, so they are likely L193 also. But that's not a guarantee as I have other 3 and 4 GD matches at 37 markers who are S9294 and FGC34929, so we don't share a common ancestor for at least 4600 years (my estimate of the age of L513).

For those interested, here's a link to McDonald's TMRCA ages.? I'm puzzled by some of his calculations (he has approximately 200 BC for TMRCA of L193, and I calculate it at about 200 AD), but you can look up the above mentioned SNPs? at his site here?

McDonald has DF13 TMRCA at around 4600 years, so L513's birth age should be about the same. For L513 men I use 127 years/SNP.? 36 average SNPs X 127 = 4572 ybp.? For the L193 TMRCA I calculate 1778 ybp, or 127 X 14 SNPs. That works out to 1960-1777= 183 AD approximately. To get the approximate birth age of L193 I add the 9 equivalent SNPs to the previous 14 SNPs for a total of 23 SNPs to the birth of L193 man.? So 23 X 127 = 2921 ybp, or about 961 BC (1960- 2921= -961). I use 1960 AD as the average birth year of testees.

To summarize, according to my rough calculations, L193 man was likely born around 961 BC, but his descendants didn't really blossom until around 183 AD, the TMRCA of all living descendants of L193 man -- the point in time where all living L193 descendants share a common ancestor: Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor. This is essentially the average age of all the 4 living subclades (Sons) of L193.

Best,

Daryl


On Feb 9, 2018 12:24 PM, "mwwdna@... [R1b-L513-Project]" <R1b-L513-Project@...> wrote:
?

Daryl, please hold on recommending targeted (fixed) SNP testing or at least ask the folks to join here to discuss.

There are a number of SNPs in this branch. BY34838 is just the one FTDNA chose to lead with on the haplotree.? We don't have any idea about which SNP is oldest or youngest in this branch.

Big Y is always a good thing to do so, since you discover your own line of SNPs, and this should also cover the SNPs in this branch... which was discovered by Big Y. Of course, one should look for a price promotion.

I recognize that not all can afford Big Y but if we could get another McIntyre or two to do Big Y before recommending targeted SNP testing, we might have a better chance of selecting the right SNPs to target.? We should also fold that into a R1b-S5982(L193) Pack update.

Mike W

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