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Roger's tree has some interesting relatives and cousin marriages going back to Battle Axe McLean. I think his kit# on the L513 Haplogroup Results page is IN88022 where he claims? " | Maclean | Clan MacLean chiefs through the House of Drimnin
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" ?His tree needs some obvious work with dates. I got the 3 screenshots below -- in order from top to bottom -- from Roger Gordon Mclean's Geni? public posting here:
Bottom line: All men descending from the Z17814/Z17815 equivalent block are descendants of the McLean Clan going back to at least Battle Axe McLean -- for sure in my mind -- and this is clearly revealed in the L513 Classic Results page where no McLeans (to date) in our BY207 Son? SNP of the L193 Haplogroup are found outside of the Z17815/Z17814 block.
My? bottom-up dating of the birth of the Z17815/Z17814 block is ~1090 CE, and the TMRCA of that block is ~1350 CE? which is the averaged birth date for the Son SNPs of the Z17814/Z17815 block, like A1067.? I suspect all of these Son SNPs -- which are at least 5 -- would have been born within the 1200 to 1400 CE timeframe. Unlike statistical programs, I error more to an older date than a younger date, as SNP dating has always been found to be erroneously young with each new dating method. I'm not a mathematician though -- just a generalist who tries to look at the big picture all at once.?
Using a top-down dating system I believe the 9 equivalent SNPs in the L193 block had their first SNP born ~3100 CE, with a TMRCA -- or averaged birthdate of L193's 4 Son SNPs at ~30 CE with a leeway of +/- 1.5 SNPs at 130 years/SNP -- or 165 BCE to 225 CE.?
Once various datings from various sources of SNP Births and TMRCAs are averaged with averaged dates of same for L193, DF13, L21, etc. -- in order to properly fit bottoms-up/top-down averaged dates -- I believe my above approximate dates to be sound. Well sound for a non-mathematician who can't write an algorithm to account for all the known variables. ;-)? It is, after all, a somewhat subjective process.?
A new FTDNA SNP dating tool called Discover is interesting, but I'm sure is very confusing to most people. For example the birth date of a SNP is often younger than the formed date. I suspect "formed" is actually the birth date and their "born" dates are actually the TMRCA. However, their maximum birth date for A1067 and Z17815 are both 700 years, and the maximum formed date for A1067 is also 700 years ago. Z17815 and A1069's formed dates are only 50 years apart at 950 and 1000 years respectively. To me this is obvious work of a flawed algorithm, and something I've witnessed for many years -- even by people with much better math skills than myself, but who unfortunately don't check the algorithm's results to "make it all fit".? My analysis and dating methods continue to remain flexible. Just Google "Discover FTDNA" and plug in the desired SNP on the FTDNA Discover page. Then click on the red links for ancestor or descendant SNPs.
All thoughts and comments accepted.?
Daryl Martin,? #181420, L193+ tested, and A1067 by confirmed Martin paternal cousin #44265.? Hmm, FTDNA's sale prices look very tempting.?
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Great post Daryl. What do you know about Roger and his tree? Has it been verified by genealogists or the Lord Lyon, etc.? There are also origination questions. For instance, how do you square the Highlands identity with McLean's found among the Border Marches? When do you suspect the surname might have become Martin/McLean? Wiki has the following:? " The founder of the clan was a Scottish warlord descended from the royal??named??.?The stories of Gillean being descended from the??are fictitious, as the FitzGeralds are of??descent and the Macleans are of Gaelic descent, having been in Scotland since the??from northeastern??in the earlier centuries C.E. Gillean's great-grandfather was Old Dugald of?, born ca. 1050 during the reign of??of the?, the principal royal line of the Cenél Loairn. He was a Judex (judge) and Councillor to King David of Scots.?Gillean fought at the??in 1263 during the Scottish-Norwegian War where the Scottish were victorious.
Gillean's son??(from the Gaelic Maoliosa "Servant of Jesus") was thought by some to have taken the name Gillemor in 1263 and is also said to have led his followers at the Battle of Largs in 1263.?He wrote his name as "Gillemor Mcilyn?("son of Gillean"), County of Perth" on the third??of 1296,?swearing fealty to?.
Gillean's great-great-grandson was Iain Dhu Maclean who settled on the?.?One of his sons was Lachainn Lubanach (Lachlan) who was the progenitor of the Macleans of Duart and the other son was Eachainn Reafanach (Hector) who was the progenitor of the?.?The Macleans of Duart married into the family of??(chief of?).?By the end of the 15th century the Macleans owned the isles?,?,?,?,??as well as??in Argyll and??in mainland Scotland.
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Hi Leake, and others:
Thanks for your email Leake. Despite checking my previous posting several times for errors I found one later in '3100 CE' which should have been '3100 ybp', which would put the birth of the first equivalent SNP in the L193 block at around 1100 BCE.? I still believe that A3, the brother SNP of BY207, is the mostly likely branch that resulted in the first Kings of Scotland through the Alpin dynasty and their presumed 5th century Cunedda Clan ancestors with origins in the Clackmanashire region (Manaw Gododdin).? ?When the Alpins daughtered out I suspect the Duncan dynasty, who took over, were M222. As we already know, M222, L193, A3, BY207 SNP men all descend from L21 and DF13 SNP men, the latter? being the SNP which the former 4 SNPs all share a common ancestor with roughly somewhere around 2400 BCE -- which is around the same time the archeologically famous gravesites of the Amesbury Archer and his Companion (L21+ only) were dated.?
Duncan McLean, the administrator for the FTDNA McLean surname group, along with his co-administrators, would be the group to ask about McLean lineages.? They know much more about McLean history than I?do, which is not much at all. Duncan McLean, a scotsman, lives in Britain and his most distant paternal McLean ancestor is from Campbeltown where my cousin, Angus Martin still lives, and where my paternal grandfather was born to Captain Duncan Martin in 1891. Angus is a poet, writer, and historian, and acts as editor for the? Kintyre Antiquarian and Natural History Society.?
I have a copy of one of their Kintyre Magazine booklets somewhere. Angus published a small DNA article I wrote in the Kintyre Magazine in 2011. There's also an unaffiliated website online that has printed their material. I never saw any genealogical trees in either one though.
My feeling is that due to what I wrote in my last posting, and with more than one McLean under A1067 claiming chiefly lineage,? it's strong enough circumstantial evidence for me to believe our BY207 SNP lineage produced the McLean Clan. Genealogies, like Roger's show that they intermarried daughters of Carrick in lower Scotland -- a mere skip and jump by boat from the Hebrides.? Since mainland Scotland is only about 300 miles (~500 kms) in length, travelling anywhere in Scotland was of little problem for people of means.
While writing this I came across a pdf per link below.? He gives oldstyle lineages for McLeans back to the first ones and up into the 20th century, which could be invaluable for some trying to find recent McLean ancestors, including possibilities for my Martin roots.? I'll give it a good read -- someday.? Where our/my McLean ancestors became our/my Martins is still a mystery.?
Also, while writing this, I got a reply from Duncan McLean, administrator of the McLean surname group.? Here's what he said:
"Within the MacLean/MacLaine DNA project we were made aware of Roger McLean’s belief that he was descended from the House of Drimnin two years ago and I spent some time investigating his claim using recent family information that he provided to us and clan histories. My conclusion was that his claim was credible and we were happy then to declare that we believed him to be descended from the early chiefs of our clan. We now have seven such project members descended through different clan branches - all bar one being members of haplogroup R-Z17815."
I'll have to ask him about that one clan branch that he says is non Z17815.? Maybe I've misinterpreted Duncan's words. If they're not Z17815 I have my doubts about their McLean clan lineage Duncan! ;-) lol. I'm not mocking Duncan here. He and I have shared many a good laugh.? I hope he enlightens me/us soon. ;-) After all, the Z17814/Z17815 Haplogroup seems only to have started roughly around 1090 CE. As far as I know, everyone tested is both Z17814 and Z17815, or they're neither one. Old Dougal is presumed to be born around 1050 CE. This means, if my dates are close to actuality, this apparent McLean lineage would need to have been no more than Old Dougal's great, or great great, grandson and doesn't descend from Battle Axe McLean ( the apparent beginning of McLean name) -- who was likely born in the early 1200s CE -- but some other old McLean lineage that nobody knows about yet.? Per my previous post: I don't think any descendants of Z17814/15 were likely born before 1200 CE. It's quite possible that Battle Axe McLean himself wasn't born with any surviving SNPs descending from Z17815/14. Oh my, I just lengthened an already long post! ;-)
Surnames in Scotland were highly influenced by Christianity which was brought to them by the Irish around the 5th century, with the most significant being 6th century Columba. Malcolm means 'servant of Columba through 'Maol' meaning 'servant of' and 'colm' for Columba. Coombs surname also refers to Columba. Even the Picts adopted non Pictish names like (St) Constantine before they became the first kings of Scotland through the Alpin dynasty.? McLean derives from MacGilleon or like derivatives and means 'mac' for 'son of', 'gille' for 'servant of', 'eon' for John, specifically St. John. So 'Son of the servant of St. John' = McLean. Martin derives from St. Martin. I'm sure 'maol' and 'gille' have separate origins, but mean the same thing as far as I know.
Pinkerton, an 18th century historian, makes a very convincing argument in his book, now online, that the Irish, who were intially called Scots, were not the powerhouse force that defeated the Picts. He claims the Picts royal lineages passed through the females. This forced the brothers of their appointed kings to carve out their own kingdoms, which they did, and by the mid 8th (or 9th?) century all of Argyll, Lorn, and Kintyre were living peacefully which according to Pinkerton would never happen if they weren't all controlled by the Picts.? Since Columba and subsequent priests/Abbot's were so revered by common and royal people alike, it's easy to understand why the Irish language and customs were adopted in Alba, today's Scotland.
The Martin name may have become more prevalent in the western Isles of Scotland through a McDonald man called 'Angus of the Wind' who named one of his son's Martin Martin. Yes, forename and surname both. Martins, McDonalds, and McLeans all lived close together, so NPEs (Non Paternal/Parental Events) were natural occurances as well as sons being given their unwed mother's surname. 'Kil' would also mean 'servant of' so you end up with a place called Kilmartin in mainland Scotland. On the small island of Tiree there is the township of Balemartin. There is/was also, a Knockmartin on Isle of Mull.? Angus of the Wind didn't like his McDonald chief's McLean wife and became somewhat famous for the nasty poems he wrote about her.?
On the Isle of Iona, where Columba first settled with his 12 desciples in the 6th century, there are the St. Martin's Cross ( built 9th century) and St John's cross both still at the Iona Abbey.?
To answer Leake's question more directly, since our Martins are A1067 with our oldest known presumed to have been born around 1765 CE, that leaves us looking back to A1067 origins around 1350 CE for our surname changing from McLean to Martin.?
If the McLeans in the Border Marches are Z17815/14 then they can descend from highlanders and lowlanders alike.? Elevation has no bearing on genetics, especially considering the short distance between the two. They're both descendants of Battle Axe McLean in my opinion.? ;-)
Best,
Daryl Martin?
Great post Daryl. What do you know about Roger and his tree? Has it been verified by genealogists or the Lord Lyon, etc.?
There are also origination questions. For instance, how do you square the Highlands identity with McLean's found among the Border Marches? When do you suspect the surname might have become Martin/McLean?
Wiki has the following:? "The founder of the clan was a Scottish warlord descended from the royal??named??.?The stories of Gillean being descended from the??are fictitious, as the FitzGeralds are of??descent and the Macleans are of Gaelic descent, having been in Scotland since the??from northeastern??in the earlier centuries C.E. Gillean's great-grandfather was Old Dugald of?, born ca. 1050 during the reign of??of the?, the principal royal line of the Cenél Loairn. He was a Judex (judge) and Councillor to King David of Scots.?Gillean fought at the??in 1263 during the Scottish-Norwegian War where the Scottish were victorious.
Gillean's son??(from the Gaelic Maoliosa "Servant of Jesus") was thought by some to have taken the name Gillemor in 1263 and is also said to have led his followers at the Battle of Largs in 1263.?He wrote his name as "Gillemor Mcilyn?("son of Gillean"), County of Perth" on the third??of 1296,?swearing fealty to?.
Gillean's great-great-grandson was Iain Dhu Maclean who settled on the?.?One of his sons was Lachainn Lubanach (Lachlan) who was the progenitor of the Macleans of Duart and the other son was Eachainn Reafanach (Hector) who was the progenitor of the?.?The Macleans of Duart married into the family of??(chief of?).?By the end of the 15th century the Macleans owned the isles?,?,?,?,??as well as??in Argyll and??in mainland Scotland.
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Here are were some of the related testers fit on the Y Classic results project page. It is subgrouped by tree branch.
13077. L513>S5668>A7>Z17623>S5979>S5982>BY207>Z17816>Z17813>FGC32127>FGC39760>A1069>Z17815>A1067>BY53200>BY13857
Angus Martin b.c1805,Argyll,Scotland d. 1845-51
13078. L513>S5668>A7>Z17623>S5979>S5982>BY207>Z17816>Z17813>FGC32127>FGC39760>A1069>Z17815>A1067>BY53200>BY13857>BY115286
Clan MacLean chiefs through the House of Drimnin
13080. L513>S5668>A7>Z17623>S5979>S5982>BY207>Z17816>Z17813>FGC32127>FGC39760>A1069>Z17815>A1067>BY53200>BY192241
Clan MacLean chiefs through the House of Ross
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13156. L513>S5668>A7>Z17623>S5979>S5982>BY207>Z17816>Z17813>FGC32127>FGC39760>A1069>Z17815>FT285970>FT385642
MacLean Chiefs/House of Hynish, Tiree
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L513?iframe=yresults
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Great stuff overall! I'd not seen a deep dive on the McLean cluster under L193 previously. Has anyone else heard the legend that Kennedy (Carrick, etc.) had been derived from Cunneda ("ugly head")?
The earlier dates are intriguing overall. We see L513 reliably underneath L21 but the period of L193 into the genetic clusters that eventually adopted surnames (Little, Kennedy, McLean, Duncan, etc.) is not so well interpreted. A number of folks have used the Irish etc. genealogies to try to name known progenitors of these clusters but there could be a 1000 years between the formation of the cluster we see under L193 to the earliest "genealogical period" in 1200. Then there's another significant historical gap until we get closer to the 16th century. Timescales are funny things - they are mostly defined by patterns, not absolutes.
The other issue from the Roman occupation to the medieval period is which tribe became what genetic cluster - or that there is no one-to-one correspondence between the two. We don't know what we don't know.
I've learned of another source of early data (in addition to "Men of the North") by Chadwick [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Early_Scotland/xNcKzZwHmnYC?hl=en]. His summary of these early celtic tribes and their transformations into Strathclyde, Alba and finally Scotland is interesting.
What I'm dancing around is that we still don't have solid clues whether L193 was early Briton, Pict or Dal Riada-related (Irish Pict). Enough time passed that all of these tribes, kingdoms, etc. dissolved and new arrangements emerged - similar to the multi-ethnic Normans, Norse, continental Celts, etc. If what happened from 500 CE to 1200 CE is that all of these populations got scrambled then the life histories of every cluster beneath L193 will be different.
McLeans may have traveled a great deal. Littles may have sheltered in place for a thousand years, etc. The patterns of SNP branching, founder effects, etc. tell a more poignant story than legendary ancestors from a population biology perspective. The surviving lines of descent we see genetically may have been the 'bastards' of their day who survived for instance. We just don't know until we test many more ancient remains.
leake
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A nice summary of the murky post-Roman history is "The Faded Map - the Lost Kingdoms of Scotland" by Alistair Moffat, who regularly writes on Border material. He has also written a book covering the same period and area summarising major DNA results, but that may have dated since 2019: "Britain’s DNA Journey - our Remarkable Genetic Story".
Both have quite good indexes.
HTH, Chris
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Hi Chris:
Could you give an outline of the content of these books in including your thoughts about them?
Best,
Daryl
I'll try to respond soon to Leake's posting
A nice summary of the murky post-Roman history is "The Faded Map - the Lost Kingdoms of Scotland" by Alistair Moffat, who regularly writes on Border material. He has also written a book covering the same period and area summarising major DNA results, but that may have dated since 2019: "Britain’s DNA Journey - our Remarkable Genetic Story".
Both have quite good indexes.
HTH, Chris
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Is there a .PDF version of this book available?
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Hi Tiger (Mike):
Thanks. However Martin is #13070 on the L513 Results page. Pelkey is 13077 there and is BY53200>BY13857 like 13078 below him on the Results page. Martin, 44265, is A1067* along with? MacLeans 213216 and IN48416 on Alex W's Big Tree chart. However, as we know Alex is not actively updating his Tree anymore, but the variants for Martin and the two MacLeans above? were last updated this July on Alex's Tree -- presumably automatically.? On the L513 Results page I see 213216's terminal SNP is A5867,? which is not in his private SNPs on Alex's Tree, so that tells me he is no longer A1067* like Martin 44265 who has FGC40129 in his private SNPs on Alex's Tree. The other MacLean, IN48416 is still A1067* on the Results, and he has done BigY3, but he is listed there with two others who may have only taken single or SNP Pack tests.? To help separate IN48416 from the others should one of his private SNPs on Alex's Tree be used as a terminal SNP on the Results page like Martin's FGC40129 is?? Now that Alex is no longer manually updating his Tree, it would help greatly if all the BigY testees on the Results page were separated from those who haven't taken Big Y. Yes? No??
Best,
Daryl?
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022, 6:38 AM Tiger Mike < mwwdna@...> wrote: Here are were some of the related testers fit on the Y Classic results project page. It is subgrouped by tree branch.
13077. L513>S5668>A7>Z17623>S5979>S5982>BY207>Z17816>Z17813>FGC32127>FGC39760>A1069>Z17815>A1067>BY53200>BY13857
Angus Martin b.c1805,Argyll,Scotland d. 1845-51
13078. L513>S5668>A7>Z17623>S5979>S5982>BY207>Z17816>Z17813>FGC32127>FGC39760>A1069>Z17815>A1067>BY53200>BY13857>BY115286
Clan MacLean chiefs through the House of Drimnin
13080. L513>S5668>A7>Z17623>S5979>S5982>BY207>Z17816>Z17813>FGC32127>FGC39760>A1069>Z17815>A1067>BY53200>BY192241
Clan MacLean chiefs through the House of Ross
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13156. L513>S5668>A7>Z17623>S5979>S5982>BY207>Z17816>Z17813>FGC32127>FGC39760>A1069>Z17815>FT285970>FT385642
MacLean Chiefs/House of Hynish, Tiree
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Let me catch up.? I don't if this is a new result or not but I just noticed Pelkey has a R-FTA42330 result now. I have to revise the subgrouping.?
Generally speaking i lean towards yours thought "t would help greatly if all the BigY testees on the Results page were separated from those who haven't taken Big Y".?? I try to give value to the fixed/target singleton or pack/panel testers by placing them approximately in the right place but as more Big Y700 results roll in the old targeted SNP test results become obsolete. This is why I quite recommending SNP Pack tests a couple of years ago.?
I will revise Pelkey's position and respond again.
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Great discussion all!!!
Whenever this group speaks, I learn something.? My little group of A2 guys are beginning to see light around the edges too!
I concur with the BigY (or equivalent NGS test) "line in the sand"!!? STR patterns are just that... patterns.? SNPs are unique... sometimes unique to a group but still single events.
I think I personally, have busted through the brick wall of Patrick McGuire d in 1853. Verbal from Enniskillen but no idea except to say SW Ulster somewhere around Lough Erne.? Funny enough, pretty sure the wall fell due to an autosomal match contact!!??
Y DNA is still more rewarding in my opinion.
Brad?
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022, 19:22 Tiger Mike < mwwdna@...> wrote: Let me catch up.? I don't if this is a new result or not but I just noticed Pelkey has a R-FTA42330 result now. I have to revise the subgrouping.?
Generally speaking i lean towards yours thought "t would help greatly if all the BigY testees on the Results page were separated from those who haven't taken Big Y".?? I try to give value to the fixed/target singleton or pack/panel testers by placing them approximately in the right place but as more Big Y700 results roll in the old targeted SNP test results become obsolete. This is why I quite recommending SNP Pack tests a couple of years ago.?
I will revise Pelkey's position and respond again.
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Daryl, the two Martins should be positioned properly now. It appears the Martin surname sprang up twice amongst the early expansion of the McLean people.
Angus Martin b.c1805,Argyll,Scotland d. 1845-51??? Scotland??? R-Z17815>A1067>FGC40129
Niel Martin b1740,Angus b1765,John b 1790??? Scotland??? R-Z17815>A1067>FT120206>FGC39900
What are the kit numbers of the McLean testers that are SNP Pack/Singleton tested only that you think should be moved?? The challenge is to place them in a proper placement downstream when STRs do not provide a clear indication. This leaves you with the alternative of punting them back into the general A1M STR cluster/pool, which is lower resolution.? What are your recommendations?
I don't look at the Big Tree much anymore because it is so far behind and primarily based on VCF files rather than BAM raw data.
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not yet Tiger - its still $50 for 200+ pages...? but some of it is controversial in light of what we see genetically, at least among the names we're discussing. Nothing revolutionary, just makes one wonder whether these genealogies are simply more of a recent creation than a picture of true identities. the cultural dimensions are the hardest to imagine. for instance, if L513 migration was a series of events over time then different Pict or Briton identities would later have emerged (even if they migrated in small groups). Chadwick's discussion of prehistoric Irish Picts migrating back to western Scotland is easily possible.
leake
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Thanks Mike:
439106 is right below IN48416, with A1067 like all of them in that group.? But he is only 1 step away from IN48416 at 111, as I see it. In my mind it would be a shame to separate them.? I have many matches at 111, and the format ftdna uses on my personal Matches page is not conducive for easy comparisons for mobile phone use.? ?I'm not so much concerned -- in retrospect of above -- about who hasn't taken the Big Y, but rather who has. You may have answered this question before, but is there no easy way to mark a person as Big Y without moving close STR non-Big Y matches away from them? If so, that would be better.?
I was just perusing through my Matches that have done BigY 5/700, and surprisingly, like IN48416, more than a few have stalled out at Z17815* with at least one each at A1075* and A1067*(IN48416). I had thought that the increased BigY testing wouldn't result in that, but it seems apparent that since the Son SNPs of Z17815 were born they have branched out and away from each other.
I'm still sad about Alex's Tree becoming somewhat obselete and out of sync with FTDNA's SNP Tree, but it has big advantages still.? I think one can still send their BigY results to them and automatically get added to the Tree. Private SNPs can be seen in case someone wants to single test them. Also, it shows equivalent SNPs so that block ageing and TMRCA's can be roughly calculated.? The Big Tree is close to a one stop store for me -- in the past. Now, however, as more people don't use it, it's getting difficult to look at everything all at once.
Yes, the other Martin is interesting. I'm way past due in working with them. It looks like we broke away from each other at the birth of A1067 Son SNPs.
I'd like to respond to everyone that posted today, but it'll have to wait, as my brain works very slow especially if I'm writing a post.? ;-)
Best,
Daryl?
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022, 7:46 PM Tiger Mike < mwwdna@...> wrote: Daryl, the two Martins should be positioned properly now. It appears the Martin surname sprang up twice amongst the early expansion of the McLean people.
Angus Martin b.c1805,Argyll,Scotland d. 1845-51??? Scotland??? R-Z17815>A1067>FGC40129
Niel Martin b1740,Angus b1765,John b 1790??? Scotland??? R-Z17815>A1067>FT120206>FGC39900
What are the kit numbers of the McLean testers that are SNP Pack/Singleton tested only that you think should be moved?? The challenge is to place them in a proper placement downstream when STRs do not provide a clear indication. This leaves you with the alternative of punting them back into the general A1M STR cluster/pool, which is lower resolution.? What are your recommendations?
I don't look at the Big Tree much anymore because it is so far behind and primarily based on VCF files rather than BAM raw data.
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Hi Daryl, That’s a big ask as the books cover big complex topics.
The Faded Map seems to use a blend of the historical sources, recent archaeology and linguistic analysis to try to delineate the Celtic and Pictish tribes/realms (he calls them 'kindreds') in the British Isles and near Continent from the Iron Age up to the Normans. DNA does not feature. Written in 2014. He highlights where scholars disagree, and his credentials and reputation are sound.
The DNA book covers a wider region and period from post glacial, hunter-gatherers, Beakers, etc. and again using a blend of historical, archaeological and linguistic analyses to support his 'story'.
My thoughts: it would be hard to get a better synthesis and exposition unless you are prepared to do years (I typed ‘tears’!) of detailed scholarly reading. He has done it for the reader.
HTH, Chris
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On 16 Aug 2022, at 00:50, Class1 Driver <class1driver@...> wrote:
? Hi Chris:
Could you give an outline of the content of these books in including your thoughts about them?
Best,
Daryl
I'll try to respond soon to Leake's posting A nice summary of the murky post-Roman history is "The Faded Map - the Lost Kingdoms of Scotland" by Alistair Moffat, who regularly writes on Border material. He has also written a book covering the same period and area summarising major DNA results, but that may have dated since 2019: "Britain’s DNA Journey - our Remarkable Genetic Story".
Both have quite good indexes.
HTH, Chris
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Hi Tiger,?
No PDF that I know of, but the publisher, Birlinn, has the E-book at ~?7 ($10). I bought the paperbacks for ~?5 each, in the UK.
Chris
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Show quoted text
On 16 Aug 2022, at 02:47, Tiger Mike <mwwdna@...> wrote:
?Is there a .PDF version of this book available?
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Daryl, if you have access to a kit with Big Y results you can log in to their dashboard and look at the Big Y Block Tree.? It is modeled after the Big Tree. 
Thanks Mike:
439106 is right below IN48416, with A1067 like all of them in that group.? But he is only 1 step away from IN48416 at 111, as I see it. In my mind it would be a shame to separate them.? I have many matches at 111, and the format ftdna uses on my personal Matches page is not conducive for easy comparisons for mobile phone use.? ?I'm not so much concerned -- in retrospect of above -- about who hasn't taken the Big Y, but rather who has. You may have answered this question before, but is there no easy way to mark a person as Big Y without moving close STR non-Big Y matches away from them? If so, that would be better.?
I was just perusing through my Matches that have done BigY 5/700, and surprisingly, like IN48416, more than a few have stalled out at Z17815* with at least one each at A1075* and A1067*(IN48416). I had thought that the increased BigY testing wouldn't result in that, but it seems apparent that since the Son SNPs of Z17815 were born they have branched out and away from each other.
I'm still sad about Alex's Tree becoming somewhat obselete and out of sync with FTDNA's SNP Tree, but it has big advantages still.? I think one can still send their BigY results to them and automatically get added to the Tree. Private SNPs can be seen in case someone wants to single test them. Also, it shows equivalent SNPs so that block ageing and TMRCA's can be roughly calculated.? The Big Tree is close to a one stop store for me -- in the past. Now, however, as more people don't use it, it's getting difficult to look at everything all at once.
Yes, the other Martin is interesting. I'm way past due in working with them. It looks like we broke away from each other at the birth of A1067 Son SNPs.
I'd like to respond to everyone that posted today, but it'll have to wait, as my brain works very slow especially if I'm writing a post.? ;-)
Best,
Daryl? On Mon, Aug 15, 2022, 7:46 PM Tiger Mike < mwwdna@...> wrote: Daryl, the two Martins should be positioned properly now. It appears the Martin surname sprang up twice amongst the early expansion of the McLean people.
Angus Martin b.c1805,Argyll,Scotland d. 1845-51??? Scotland??? R-Z17815>A1067>FGC40129
Niel Martin b1740,Angus b1765,John b 1790??? Scotland??? R-Z17815>A1067>FT120206>FGC39900
What are the kit numbers of the McLean testers that are SNP Pack/Singleton tested only that you think should be moved?? The challenge is to place them in a proper placement downstream when STRs do not provide a clear indication. This leaves you with the alternative of punting them back into the general A1M STR cluster/pool, which is lower resolution.? What are your recommendations?
I don't look at the Big Tree much anymore because it is so far behind and primarily based on VCF files rather than BAM raw data.
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R1b Y DNA Project Facebook Group -? R1b All Subclades Project Activity Feed -
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Mike, et al...
I ran a YFull search of my terminal SNP and found that YF is saying this guy lived 415 years ago.? That just so happens to be an iconic date in Irish lore.? 1607AD is the Flight of the Earls.? My progenitor didn't show up stateside for another 200 years....BUT WE'RE GETTIN' CLOSER!! Brad  Brad
Brad McGuire
Lt. Commander, USN (Ret)
CVMA Member "Bone"
ISOGG mbr
FTDNA # 143742
YFull # YF06716/YF68660
???? Fir Manach Mag Uidhir ???????????? of the ??????????? Menapii
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:06 AM Tiger Mike < mwwdna@...> wrote: Daryl, if you have access to a kit with Big Y results you can log in to their dashboard and look at the Big Y Block Tree.? It is modeled after the Big Tree. 
Thanks Mike:
439106 is right below IN48416, with A1067 like all of them in that group.? But he is only 1 step away from IN48416 at 111, as I see it. In my mind it would be a shame to separate them.? I have many matches at 111, and the format ftdna uses on my personal Matches page is not conducive for easy comparisons for mobile phone use.? ?I'm not so much concerned -- in retrospect of above -- about who hasn't taken the Big Y, but rather who has. You may have answered this question before, but is there no easy way to mark a person as Big Y without moving close STR non-Big Y matches away from them? If so, that would be better.?
I was just perusing through my Matches that have done BigY 5/700, and surprisingly, like IN48416, more than a few have stalled out at Z17815* with at least one each at A1075* and A1067*(IN48416). I had thought that the increased BigY testing wouldn't result in that, but it seems apparent that since the Son SNPs of Z17815 were born they have branched out and away from each other.
I'm still sad about Alex's Tree becoming somewhat obselete and out of sync with FTDNA's SNP Tree, but it has big advantages still.? I think one can still send their BigY results to them and automatically get added to the Tree. Private SNPs can be seen in case someone wants to single test them. Also, it shows equivalent SNPs so that block ageing and TMRCA's can be roughly calculated.? The Big Tree is close to a one stop store for me -- in the past. Now, however, as more people don't use it, it's getting difficult to look at everything all at once.
Yes, the other Martin is interesting. I'm way past due in working with them. It looks like we broke away from each other at the birth of A1067 Son SNPs.
I'd like to respond to everyone that posted today, but it'll have to wait, as my brain works very slow especially if I'm writing a post.? ;-)
Best,
Daryl? On Mon, Aug 15, 2022, 7:46 PM Tiger Mike < mwwdna@...> wrote: Daryl, the two Martins should be positioned properly now. It appears the Martin surname sprang up twice amongst the early expansion of the McLean people.
Angus Martin b.c1805,Argyll,Scotland d. 1845-51??? Scotland??? R-Z17815>A1067>FGC40129
Niel Martin b1740,Angus b1765,John b 1790??? Scotland??? R-Z17815>A1067>FT120206>FGC39900
What are the kit numbers of the McLean testers that are SNP Pack/Singleton tested only that you think should be moved?? The challenge is to place them in a proper placement downstream when STRs do not provide a clear indication. This leaves you with the alternative of punting them back into the general A1M STR cluster/pool, which is lower resolution.? What are your recommendations?
I don't look at the Big Tree much anymore because it is so far behind and primarily based on VCF files rather than BAM raw data.
--
For R1b Y DNA questions please post on one of the two forums:
R1b Y DNA Project Facebook Group -? R1b All Subclades Project Activity Feed -
|
Leake Little
MagUidhir6