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QDX transmit troubleshooting advice¡
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John et Al This is the 160m Class E using a T80-6 as output transformer. Good Class E drain waveforms and 44.9V out on 11.4V DC in (a 3 cell LiPol not fully charged. As you see DC peak on BS170 is 44V so it¡¯s ok. Just for info on what can be done. However, 2nd harmonic is higher than wanted due to balance on t¡¯former and not identical Drain peaks. To be worked on! 73 Ross Sent from my iPhone 6 |
Good looking traces! JZ On Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 1:49 AM Afghan Kabulldust via <kabulldust=[email protected]> wrote:
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John,
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You could always use either a 0.5mm lead pad or scrunched ip Alu foil. As silicon does have heat resistance and we don¡¯t need electrical isolation! 73 Ross Sent from my iPhone 6 On 17 Sep 2023, at 04:38, John Z <jdzbrozek@...> wrote: |
Ross, Yes either could work.? I think I will stick to suggesting/using compliant non-conductor Thermal Interface Materials though...just an irrational concern about short circuits, which would probably never happen anyway! ?Hans is right when he suggests I worry too much! "How might this fail?" I have been known to mutter that in my sleep. ;-) JZ On Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 5:30 AM Afghan Kabulldust via <kabulldust=[email protected]> wrote: John, |
I read the theory on the RF choke's flyback voltage blowing MOSFETs with interest. I was interested in the efficacy and potential penalty of having a Zener to protect from high VSWR load, but anyway... I am not sure what kind of inductance model was used for L14 in simulation. It's an inductor on lossy #43 ferrite. Well, that loss in magnetic circuit may have only a small impact on the transient spike. One thing to remember is that the drain impedance of these transistors is very low, like on the order of 5 - 20 ohm depending on the winding ratio of T1, supply voltage and the output power squeezed out from the amp (just draw the load line). So, L14 does not have to have a huge reactance at the lowest operating frequency. Also, there is little penalty in adding a parallel resistor to L14 as long as the R is well larger than the drain impedance. Say R is 470 ohm or something, and that value should be enough to keep the flyback voltage very low, if that is indeed a problem (I'm not really sold on that theory). Same thing can be done across the primary windings of T1. In fact, resistors are often added to the output transformers when using modern LDMOS transistors (to increase stability). I also think mechanical stress on TO-92 can be a source of unreliability. I would prefer to use DFN or PLD-1.5W LDMOS transistors mounted on the board. SOT-89 is ok, too. If I had no choice other than TO-92, I would insert the transistors, with a tiny amount of thermally conductive silicone adhesive between the transistor and the copper, bolt the washer down carefully and lightly, wait for the adhesive to fully cure, loosen the bolt and solder the leads. However, replacing the transistors will be a lot of work when they blow. Simulating high voltage from poorly matched load is a bit tricky. Hams use SWR routinely but that measure is totally inadequate for this discussion. What matters is the magnitude and angle of the return power. Short or open load is not exactly the harshest condition. There is a combination of mag and angle, or a point somewhere on the Smith chart that generates high voltage on the drain but that depends a lot on what goes in between. Generally speaking, LDMOS is a lot tougher than bipolar or regular MOSFET in this scenario. Incidentally, I have a Youkits EK1A 5W transceiver, and I thought blew the final. The kit came with a counterfeit 2SC2078 anyway, which I did not like. So I changed it with real Sanyo chip pulled from a junk CB rig but still didn't put out any power. So I did a bit of troubleshooting and quickly found out that the Zener diode for high SWR protection failed in short mode, and that burnt the tiny pathetic RFC winding. I removed the failed Zener, wound a real RFC on a stack of four FB43-101's with 28 AWG wire (3t) and it pushed out 40dBm! I was driving a counterfeit CB final transistor at double the rated power for maybe 500 CW QSOs and I thought the transistor flied, but it was the stupid Zener (looks like 3W-rated based on the size, about 5mm long and 2.5mm diameter) and RFC. I thought to do some research whether to put in a 5W Zener or leave it out, and found this thread. |
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýIf I understand, the point of L14 is to limit current transients as current switches from one side of the push-pull to the other. This transition will happen at twice the operating frequency... I think having current flowing in both sides of the output transformer would be a Bad Thing, for many values of Bad! Putting a resistor across L14, or adding a decoupling capacitor from the center tap to ground, defeats L14's purpose, doesn't it? Some people have put a diode across L14 to catch the turn-off spike, but that reduces output power, suggesting it (the diode) is doing more than just catching the spike when drive is removed from the PA... (Haven't heard how adding those 47 volt zeners affect operation. If they keep the BS170's from blowing, even if they self-sacrifice in the process-- I don't think they will, there's not that much power in the spikes-- isn't that a net win?) I also think mechanical stress on TO-92 can be a source of
unreliability. Agree, and would probably show as a thermal problem. Paul -- AI7JR On 9/18/23 21:29, Ryuji Suzuki AB1WX
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I ran more simulations on the model I have from work with John Z.? I also adjusted the BV (breakdown) value of the BS170 model to be 1,000 volts instead of 60.? The model results were supported by bench tests of a Rev 1 QDX built for 12 volts.
1 - The voltage spike on the model is 202 volts.? This is confirmed by bench testing that the spike can be over 100 volts.? Variations in the actual breakdown voltage of a real transistor would give different results with different BS170s. 2 - The commutating diode and the Zener option reduce the spike to Zener levels or less with the commutating diode.? This was also confirmed by bench testing 3 - The power delivered to the load was reduced by about 1/4 watt for only the commutating diode.? This was validated with bench testing to be higher at approximately 1/2 watt.? No change in power was measured with the Zeners. 4 - I ran harmonic scans on my QDX for both solutions and found no difference from an unmodified QDX. I did not do efficiency models like Hans, but I agree that the commutating diode solution impacts efficiency and power out.? Both seem to protect the BS170s from excessive voltage. I have a theory that L14 is acting as a storage device that pumps the current each cycle until equilibrium is reached.? This is shown on the model as a gradual buildup of the voltage and power output and on the drains of the BS170s.? This is supported by an article in which John Z pointed me to current fed push-pull DC-DC converters.? I lost the link, but you can look up similar articles online. Based on the above, I am using the Zeners to limit the potential voltage damage of the BS170s. 73 Evan AC9TU |
Thanks for describing your simulation and bench tests. Would you be able to run a simulation with a parallel R on the RFC when you have a chance? Say 100 to 1k or something of that order, though it could be varied to find the range where it doesn't affect the Pout/eta while keeping the spike voltage low enough. |
Hi JZ This thermal mismatch problem manifests itself as the transistors heat This thread contains many interesting possibilities. But I'd still hesitate to elevate them to the level of "problem" or any kind of certainty. There's an issue of statistical significance with such a small sample size. There's a causal link issue too.? The relatively larger number of Q11 failures, originated largely from one particular QMX, where Q11 kept being replaced, alone. It's quite possible that the particular batch specifications of the replacement transistors were different, causing the new Q11 to take more load than the others, making it more likely to fail again. It's possible also that Q9 had failed and the constructor didn't realize it because it looked less obviously fried. Which would then mean the replacement Q11 would take twice as much load as it should. It's hard to know what happened.? I'd also suspect that has the samples count shown an apparent preference for Q9 failure when we might be having the conversation differently; in that case we might be saying well, Q11 has a lot of vias under it connecting it to the groudplane on the other side, which conducts heat away and keeps it cooler; Q9 has some traces on the other side, so less vias, and less heat transfer away.? In neither case to we really have enough data or a causal link; I'd put it more as interesting observations which we should certainly keep an eye on, to see if more evidence builds up.? Silicone pads also have a thermal resistance (relatively small), so not only a beneficial impact.? There could also be other factors, the particular trace layout, since exact symmetry is impossible on a 2-dimensional layout, necessarily leads to some small inductance variations due to length variations of the traces between the different transistor drains and the transformer. And indeed gates/driver. These could also be a contributing cause. My impression is that the characteristics of modern real branded semiconductors appear to be remarkably similar within the same batch, often surprisingly so. That would correspond to it being more likely that if pushed, other small differences could make it more likely for one transistor to fail than another.? 73 Hans G0UPL |
Ryuji,
The advantage of simulation is that it is easy to do what-if analysis.? Here are the results you requested: RL14p=OPEN ? ? ?PW=3.75 watts ? ? ?VDp=202 volts RL14p=100 ohms ? ? ?PW=3.6 watts ? ? ?VDp=39 volts RL14p=200 ohms ? ? ?PW=3.65 Watts ? ? ?VDp=57 Volts RL14p=225 ohms ? ? ?PW=3.7 Watts ? ? ?VDp=60 Volts RL14p=300 ohms ? ? ?PW=3.7 Watts ? ? ?VDp=71 Volts RL14p=500 ohms ? ? ?PW=3.73 Watts ? ? ?VDp=95 Volts RL14p=1,000 Ohms ? ? ?PW=3.73 watts ? ? ?VDp=136 volts RL14p is the value of the resistor parallel to L14 PW is the power measured at the load VDp is the peak drain voltage of the BS170s Remember, this simulation is not guaranteed to be the exact results in the real world.? You would need to do bench testing to verify the results. Based on the results, around 200 to 250 ohms would be needed to keep the spike below 60 volts.? There is still a power and efficiency detriment not seen with the Zeners. 73 Evan AC9TU |
Thanks again - I'll only guestimate from similar spec'ed zeners then. Zeners of course have much larger capacitance when the reverse voltage is near zero, but that's when the transistor is conducting, so that's not where the problem is. In my view, the biggest negative of Zener is short failure mode, which could burn the board pattern. |
Hans, I am quite happy to let the users review the data, such as it is, then contemplate the physics in the proposed explanation, and draw their own conclusions. JZ On Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 11:15 AM Hans Summers <hans.summers@...> wrote:
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Hello John ?
Prima facie you are completely correct. However, I think it is not necessarily so straightforward; the words of learned respected persons such as yourself, or my opinion as the designer, have considerable weight on this forum. We also have 7,500 people here, of various different experiences, knowledge and backgrounds; not all are physicists or electronic engineers, and many rely on us to provide interpretations?and recommendations based on the data.? 73 Hans G0UPL |