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On Oct 28, 2021, at 12:20 pm, G3SPL <leepd60@...> wrote:
Mains cable to the shed? Yes, good idea, but to be legal it would need to be installed or at least inspected by a qualified electrician. Even without that G3 call sign, Peter, I’d suspect you were in the UK. Why? Because at the regulatory level the British seem to fear electricity far more that we Americans do. We require inspections only for new construction or a major rebuild. Home improvement stores will sell anyone the buried cable to run to a shed. Of course one reason for that is that your main supply is 230 volts while ours is a safer 115. But there are other surprises. I recently watched a UK video that discussed the special plugs used for 5 amp residential circuits. Why bother, I thought, to wire for such a piddling amount? Make all your circuits at least 15 amps and you’ll worry less about blown fuses and tripped breakers. This Wikipedia article leaves me stunned. Why three different-sized plugs for 15, 5 and 2 amps? The purpose seems to be to make it almost impossible to draw more from a circuit than its capacity. But why worry about that, thinks this American. If you draw too much, the breaker will simply trip and no harm will be done. And why the clumsiness of putting the fuse in the plug, as with the huge BS 1363 plug? It’s bigger than many modern devices. Fuse a circuit at the breaker box. The 15 ampere (A) sockets were generally given a dedicated 15 A circuit. Multiple 5 A sockets might be on a 15 A circuit, or each on a dedicated 5 A circuit. Lighting circuits fused at 5 A were generally used to feed the 2 A sockets. Adaptors were available from 15 A down to 5 A and from 5 A down to 2 A so in practice it was possible for an appliance with the smallest size of flex to be protected only by a 15 A fuse. This is a similar level of protection to that seen for portable appliances in other countries, but less than the protection offered by the BS 1363 fused plug.
All that seems needlessly complex to us across the water. Except for high-demand circuits such as clothing dryers, we have one type of plug with either two or three compatible pins and don’t see that as a danger. What little danger there was, particularly in bathrooms and kitchens, has been eliminated by GFCIs. And yeah, I am aware that many Brits are sensitive about their electrical plugs and have fond memories of when they were taught in school how to wire a device for one of the many different plugs. We’re never taught that because everything electrical running on 115 volts has the same plug and comes from the store that way. No wiring required. For a spirited defense of British plugs as the best in the world, go here: As I believe Winston Churchill said that the British and Americans are two people separated by a common language. We’re also separated by uncommon electrical plugs. —Mike Perry, WA4MP
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Next up, the Tubes versus Valves discussion -)
73 de Lee KX4TT
On Thursday, 28 October 2021, 02:29:23 pm GMT-4, Mike Perry, WA4MP <editor@...> wrote:
> On Oct 28, 2021, at 12:20 pm, G3SPL <leepd60@...> wrote:
>
> Mains cable to the shed?? Yes, good idea, but to be legal it would need to be installed or at least inspected by a qualified electrician.?
Even without that G3 call sign, Peter, I’d suspect you were in the UK.
—Mike Perry, WA4MP
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We're not afraid, we're prudent: 240v/250V bites a lot harder than 110v. You can guess for yourself how I know ;-)
The plugs aren't different sizes: they are fused specifically to protect the appliance wiring.
Our system is safer than the US system, with completely separate circuits for lighting and power, appliance wiring and connectors that don't get dangerously hot, and switched outlets as standard.
Not that I'm biased, or anything... ;-)
--
Julian, N4JO.
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Not worried about our sturdy
plugs.
The main risk comes from heater switches manufactured far far
away...
Michael UK
On 28/10/2021 19:45, va3rr via
groups.io wrote:
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Here in the USA (conus) 24V AC is typically used for landscape?
lighting and uses direct bury cable.? The requirements to do that
are trivial no electrician required.? Good care (fusing) is easy as
low voltages so not require special hardware.
I've used that to deliver power to the shed for LED lighting and
also rectified regulated to run gear out there.? Its poer limite to
about 100W as the transformer is small (100VA).
Since I can choke the leads at both ends noise is not an issue.
Allison
-------------------------------
Please reply on list so we can share.
No private email, it goes to a bit bucket due to address harvesting
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Neat!
Would that be coger in the UK?
Michael UK
On 28/10/2021 20:35, ajparent1/KB1GMX
wrote:
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Here in the USA (conus) 24V AC is typically used for landscape?
lighting and uses direct bury cable...
I've used that to
deliver power to the shed for LED lighting and
also rectified regulated to run gear out there.? Its poer limite
to
about 100W as the transformer is small (100VA).
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Probably: the electrons just flow on the other side of the wire...
--
Julian, N4JO.
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Hello!? One thing I do for long distance power needs is to use as Allison states, "low voltage landscape wiring".? I use that to keep a large Ah battery charged and on float.? As long as you don't plan on spending a lot of time there and depleting the battery, you can have all the power you need.? When your gone it has all day to charge back up.? Use as large a battery as necessary for your project.? Steve KY4GX.
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Mike Perry,
There are two different 120vac receptacles with different ampere ratings:
?
One is rated for 15amps, the other for 20amps.? The fact that the receptacle rated for 20 amps has a perpendicular opening is to allow for the corresponding 20amp rated plug to be inserted where the 15amp receptacle will not allow the plug to be inserted.? You will find the 20amp receptacle in most kitchens, and the 15amp in the remaining parts of the house.? One should not install a 15amp receptacle in a 20amp circuit, and vis versa.?
With the above notes, it is not as simple as you portray.? You should also note that "Electrical failures or malfunctions?were the second leading cause of U.S. home fires in 2012-2016?" per an NFPA report.?
Please be careful and employ professional help if you are not aware of the dangers involved.
Respectfully,
Evan
AC9TU
40+ years of Industrial Electrical Engineering.
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Hi Evan. What are the ratings, please?
73
Roger
8P6RX
Get
Mike Perry,
There are two different 120vac receptacles with different ampere ratings:
?
One is rated for 15amps, the other for 20amps.? The fact that the receptacle rated for 20 amps has a perpendicular opening is to allow for the corresponding 20amp rated plug to be inserted where the 15amp receptacle will not allow the plug to be inserted.? You will find the 20amp receptacle in most kitchens, and the 15amp in the remaining parts of the house.? One should not install a 15amp receptacle in a 20amp circuit, and vis versa.?
With the above notes, it is not as simple as you portray.? You should also note that "
Electrical failures or malfunctions
?were the second leading cause of U.S. home fires in 2012-2016?" per an NFPA report.?
Please be careful and employ professional help if you are not aware of the dangers involved.
Respectfully,
Evan
AC9TU
40+ years of Industrial Electrical Engineering.
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We need to discuss which side of the road is safer to drive on, too.
Phil, K3UT
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We can probably all agree the topside.
Dan
--
Daniel Holmes, danielh@...
"Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
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On Oct 28, 2021, at 3:02 PM, PHILIP GRAITCER via groups.io <pgraitc@...> wrote:
We need to discuss which side of the road is safer to drive on, too.
Phil, K3UT
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We DIY 240V/60Hz all the time here in the US.? Most places allow it but still do inspections.? In Iowa, at least the county that Cedar Rapids is in, they require a homeowner to pass the journeyman's test.? Still fairly easy for people who build radios for fun.
That is a real anomaly though and most people there don't bother with permits and the test, honestly because of that.? I had to because I was building a new house.? ?But in 99% of the US you can do your own work with only the government slug doing inspections, even on 240V and be completely legal.? No issues doing that here in Arizona with a hot tub.? Even got a compliment from the inspector.?
I actually fixed stuff the electrician did wrong on my pool at the same?time. (at least one code violation) It's not rocket?science.?
On Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 2:05 PM Daniel Holmes < danielh@...> wrote: We can probably all agree the topside.
Dan
--
Daniel Holmes, danielh@...
"Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
> On Oct 28, 2021, at 3:02 PM, PHILIP GRAITCER via <pgraitc=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> We need to discuss which side of the road is safer to drive on, too.
>
> Phil, K3UT
>
>
>
>
>
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Two things. I did all the electrical work in my home renovation - everything was solid and the inspector said he wished all the jobs were like that.. his work would be easier. Having seen some of the shortcuts (some) tradesmen did on some things I could not due (that my father in law as supervisor caught them out on...) I am not surprised. Guys would use as few nails as possible in framing...etc.
When its your house, you do better. I installed more outlets than the code calls for and I have them closer together than the 12 foot spacing called for, and put in quad outlets some places to allow of lots of stuff without power bars, as well as lots of circuits to be quite a bit lower on my loads overall with no issues of how many devices are used in the room.?
(I also became a great drywall screw setter.... many hours sinking the screws below the drywall using a ratchet driver so the mudder/taper did not have to do it and cost me that much more labour).
Anyhow, the other thing of interest re. foreign (ie, not USA or Canada) electrics is what I saw in New Zealand. Their electrical outlets (220v) have a little on/off switch next each individual socket.. so if you want your juice when you plug in you have to flip the switch. Even more safe I guess. I just looked and it appears Australia does the same thing.
Brian VE3HI Toronto?
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Oh, I like the landscaping circuit option for outbuilding, small loads...
For small IT loads, you could also consider PoE , particularly if we're taking a RaspPi node (with PoE hat)...
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-------- Original message -------- From: ajparent1/KB1GMX <kb1gmx@...> Date: 2021-10-28 15:36 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [QRPLabs] British electrical plugs
Here in the USA (conus) 24V AC is typically used for landscape? lighting and uses direct bury cable.? The requirements to do that are trivial no electrician required.? Good care (fusing) is easy as low voltages so not require special hardware. I've used that to deliver power to the shed for LED lighting and also rectified regulated to run gear out there.? Its poer limite to about 100W as the transformer is small (100VA). Since I can choke the leads at both ends noise is not an issue. Allison ------------------------------- Please reply on list so we can share. No private email, it goes to a bit bucket due to address harvesting
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The breaker in the consumer unit protects the wiring to the household sockets, the fuse in the plug protects the item being powered. If the wiring was overloaded by a ring main for example there could be a fire in the partition wall.
230 V is an RMS value, so peak voltage achieved is about 330 V briefly, enough to ruin your day.
I know little about the argument regarding 110/230, but presumably for a given power consumption wiring at 110 V carried twice the current so has to have a larger cross section area, copper is not cheap these days.
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"Volts jolts, mills kills."
In a domestic home, here in Blighty, you would only encounter one type of plug and socket.
The 13 Amp type. Its fed by a 30 Amp ring main.
Also in every domestic home here in this great tea-drinking nation, is an amazing feat of engineering called an "Electric Kettle". I kid you not!?
Must get on, I have a cup of tea to drink.
Tally ho!
Trystan G0KAY
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Technically, the fuse in the plug is required to protect the cable
between the plug and the appliance. Protecting the appliance
itself is another matter.
73, Stay Safe,
Robin, G8DQX (about to brew up)
PS: This arrangement, due to sockets being supplied from a high
current ring circuit, made sense in a historical context, rather
like SRBP mains plugs & sockets.
On 29/10/2021 07:44, Ian MM0GYX wrote:
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The breaker in the consumer unit protects the wiring to the
household sockets, the fuse in the plug protects the item being
powered. ?stuff deleted?
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Without tea the whole of the UK would grind to a halt.
Some years ago the MOD building in Whitehall was refurbished. 150
electric kettles were found.
Jim?? G4EQX
On 29/10/2021 11:33, G8DQX list wrote:
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Technically, the fuse in the plug is required to protect the cable
between the plug and the appliance. Protecting the appliance
itself is another matter.
73, Stay Safe,
Robin, G8DQX (about to brew up)
PS: This arrangement, due to sockets being supplied from a high
current ring circuit, made sense in a historical context, rather
like SRBP mains plugs & sockets.
On 29/10/2021 07:44, Ian MM0GYX
wrote:
The breaker in the consumer unit protects the wiring to the
household sockets, the fuse in the plug protects the item being
powered. ?stuff deleted?
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Mike Perry, WA4MP
Lee
Julian N4JO
va3rr
Fred Spinner
Wayde VA3NCA/AD2GX
Trystan G0KAY