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Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley
|
ALL of the stairs. I had a high school student with just low enough vision to get around, with the exception of black stairs (with black tactile edges) in a lower light stairwell. He could not see any of the steps and would slip.?
Julie Henry
O&M Specialist
411 W. Front | Tyler, TX | 75702
O: 903.590.4356
?
?
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Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last
stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley
|
Hi, My experience has been as such: Fluorescent floor paint has worked best. Tape tends to peel up, and can become a trip hazard. It can be personal preference based on the environmental lighting, configuration of the stairs, etc. But I think that top stair and bottom stair of each stair grouping/flight is preferable to every single stair, as that can become visually overwhelming, and harder to visually mark the bottom step.?
Thanks, Ruth
Ruth Weinrib, MA, M.Ed., COMS
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On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:00, Erin Buckley <Ebuckley@...> wrote:
?Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley
|
I agree with Julie, All the stairs!? Eileen
On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 11:12?AM Julie Henry < jhenry@...> wrote:
ALL of the stairs. I had a high school student with just low enough vision to get around, with the exception of black stairs (with black tactile edges) in a lower light stairwell. He could not see any of the steps and would slip.?
Julie Henry
O&M Specialist
411 W. Front | Tyler, TX | 75702
O: 903.590.4356
?
?
Caution, external email.
Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last
stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley
-- Eileen K. Dashnaw, OTR/L, COMS
42 Priest Road Salem, New York 12865 phone: (518) 260-6186 fax: (518) 854-9540 ? LEGAL NOTICE
This e-mail transmission, with accompanying records, is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged information belonging to the sender, including individually identifiable health information subject to the privacy and security provisions of HIPAA. This information may be protected by pertinent privilege(s), e.g., attorney-client, doctor-patient, HIPAA etc., which will be enforced to the fullest extent of the law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any examination, analysis, disclosure, copying, dissemination, distribution, sharing, or use of the information in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message and associated documents in error, please notify the sender immediately for instructions. If this message was received by e-mail, please delete the original message.
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Eileen K Dashnaw
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So far, you have received two differing views from Julie and Ruth. I notice that both views are expressed based on what might happen with a particular student. Julie is writing from her actual experience with a specific student. What this points out to me is that it is impossible to standardize what works best for low vision and legally blind people overall. To a certain extent, the ADAAG gives guidance on percent of contrast, and what colors work best, but when adapting an environment largely for the accommodation of a specific person, I think it is always best to ask the person what she or he thinks will work best for them. I know many low vision people who would answer this question one way, and many others who would answer the other way. More frequently, however, I have found that marking every stair is preferred by a larger cross section of low vision people. This would include myself as a person who is legally blind as well as being a COMS. ? Now I want to comment on the advisability of marking steps to accommodate low vision at all. In my opinion, and in an ideal world, any person who is sufficiently low vision so as to request stair markings should really be using a cane. ?Marking the stairs that they will use most often may accommodate them for routes using those particular stairs, but then that is restricting them to perhaps only attempt to travel safely and independently on the routes that have been ideally marked. Proper use of the long, white cane, or of a dog guide, can allow them to travel independently and be aware of steps anywhere that they want to go. ? While I sincerely believe that travel skills taught to people who are totally blind? can also work very well for people who have low vision, I do support stair markings with high contrast., particularly upon request from a visually impaired person who feels that they need them for a specific, frequently traveled route or area. I would also agree with Julie that iridescent paint is more durable than tape and runs less of a tripping hazard. This is not, after all, an ideal world. Many low vision people prefer to use visual skills even when some additional environmental adaptation is necessary for them to do so independently. Therefore, I have certainly done my share of stair markings. Michael Byington, Certified Orientation and Mobility Specialist President of Kansas Association for the Blind and Visually Impaired, Inc. Membership Coordinator for Friends In Art of the American Council of the Blind 712 S. Kansas Avenue Suite 414D-F Topeka, Kansas 66603 (785) 221-7111 ByingtonCOMS@... ? ? . ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Erin Buckley Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2023 10:01 AM To: [email protected]Subject: [OandM] Stair markings ? Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley
|
There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the Public Right-of-Way The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities)
Paint works better than tape. ?Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair. ?I don’t think that there is any. ?Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception?
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On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley <Ebuckley@...> wrote:
Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley
|
Just as a side note to Michael’s addition of ADAAG, I believe there are different guidance that exist in different states. Like many things, states can go above and beyond a federal standard but must meet the federal minimum. I cannot recall off the top of my head which state was recommending all steps but believe there are some that have building codes that require just the first and last, and others that advise for all steps.
Suffice it to say, it is best to explore building codes adopted in your own state as they may differ, just as many states have their own adoptions of MUTCD.
— Christopher J. Tabb, M.A., COMS chris@...Mobile: ?512.660.2750
 Image: ACVREP Digital Badge for COMS
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On Nov 30, 2023, at 1:50?PM, Michael Byington <ByingtonCOMS@...> wrote:
So far, you have received two differing views from Julie and Ruth. I notice that both views are expressed based on what might happen with a particular student. Julie is writing from her actual experience with a specific student. What this points out to me is that it is impossible to standardize what works best for low vision and legally blind people overall. To a certain extent, the ADAAG gives guidance on percent of contrast, and what colors work best, but when adapting an environment largely for the accommodation of a specific person, I think it is always best to ask the person what she or he thinks will work best for them. I know many low vision people who would answer this question one way, and many others who would answer the other way. More frequently, however, I have found that marking every stair is preferred by a larger cross section of low vision people. This would include myself as a person who is legally blind as well as being a COMS. ? Now I want to comment on the advisability of marking steps to accommodate low vision at all. In my opinion, and in an ideal world, any person who is sufficiently low vision so as to request stair markings should really be using a cane. ?Marking the stairs that they will use most often may accommodate them for routes using those particular stairs, but then that is restricting them to perhaps only attempt to travel safely and independently on the routes that have been ideally marked. Proper use of the long, white cane, or of a dog guide, can allow them to travel independently and be aware of steps anywhere that they want to go. ? While I sincerely believe that travel skills taught to people who are totally blind? can also work very well for people who have low vision, I do support stair markings with high contrast., particularly upon request from a visually impaired person who feels that they need them for a specific, frequently traveled route or area. I would also agree with Julie that iridescent paint is more durable than tape and runs less of a tripping hazard. This is not, after all, an ideal world. Many low vision people prefer to use visual skills even when some additional environmental adaptation is necessary for them to do so independently. Therefore, I have certainly done my share of stair markings. Michael Byington, Certified Orientation and Mobility Specialist President of Kansas Association for the Blind and Visually Impaired, Inc. Membership Coordinator for Friends In Art of the American Council of the Blind 712 S. Kansas Avenue Suite 414D-F Topeka, Kansas 66603 (785) 221-7111 ByingtonCOMS@... ? ? . ? ? Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley
|
Hooray Meg!
— Christopher J. Tabb, M.A., COMS chris@...Mobile: ?512.660.2750
 Image: ACVREP Digital Badge for COMS
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On Nov 30, 2023, at 2:39?PM, Meg Robertson via groups.io <mobilitymeg@...> wrote:
There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the Public Right-of-Way The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities)
Paint works better than tape. ?Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair. ?I don’t think that there is any. ?Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception? On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley <Ebuckley@...> wrote:
Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley
|
Thanks Meg! This has been an interesting back and forth.? Lots of interesting commentary.? Ruth Weinrib, M.Ed., MA, COMS R.Weinrib.COMS@... 617.877.9595
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On Nov 30, 2023, at 4:39?PM, Meg Robertson via groups.io <mobilitymeg@...> wrote:
? There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the Public Right-of-Way The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities)
Paint works better than tape. ?Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair. ?I don’t think that there is any. ?Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception? On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley <Ebuckley@...> wrote:
Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley
|
Thanks, Meg, for listing the guidelines!!
I’d agree -on all stairs. ?Only had one student request the top step only.
If you are in a school district, they most likely have an ADA compliance staff person and departments that?make modifications.? In our school district, we make a request through the principal and then someone comes out to view the situation according to your
request. They usually paint the stairs. However, one of my recent requests may turn into a stair replacement because the school stairs are so old.?
If this is the process for your school district, TRY and be there when someone comes out to assess the needs because errors can be done. See attachment (of past modifications) where they just painted the whole riser and no contrast for going down the stairs-
that was a redo.? ?This was not what I expected at all, since usually it was a 1- 2 inch stripe on the top and riser. Another example, a PT taped the stairs- not bad but tape can peel and be a tripping hazard if stairs have heavy traffic.? The other picture
is a reconstruction on a school where they put in contrasting stairs- wonderful.??
If I have a school under construction, I go and inquire on the stairs they will be installing. One construction company cheaped out, not installing the stairs ordered despite the building supervisor telling them- that was a redo.
The ADA compliance staff and district painters have been great to work with in our district especially on modifications with staircases that offer slanted walls/overheads where our VI kids could walk into them and with piping in stairwells.?
Good Luck, and hope this is helpful
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I agree with Julie, All the stairs!?
Eileen
On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 11:12?AM Julie Henry < jhenry@...> wrote:
ALL of the stairs. I had a high school student with just low enough vision to get around, with the exception of black stairs (with black tactile edges) in a lower light stairwell. He could not see any of the steps and would slip.?
Julie Henry
O&M Specialist
411 W. Front | Tyler, TX | 75702
O:
903.590.4356
?
?
Caution, external email.
Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last
stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley
--
Eileen K. Dashnaw, OTR/L, COMS
42 Priest Road
Salem, New York 12865
?
LEGAL NOTICE
This e-mail transmission, with accompanying records, is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged information belonging to the sender, including individually identifiable health
information subject to the privacy and security provisions of HIPAA. This information may be protected by pertinent privilege(s), e.g., attorney-client, doctor-patient, HIPAA etc., which will be enforced to the fullest extent of the law. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any examination, analysis, disclosure, copying, dissemination, distribution, sharing, or use of the information in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message and associated documents
in error, please notify the sender immediately for instructions. If this message was received by e-mail, please delete the original message.
--
Eileen K Dashnaw
|
Meg,? This is very helpful. It would be good if this could be universally recommended on O&M reports.?
Best, Kelly
On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 4:39?PM Meg Robertson via <mobilitymeg= [email protected]> wrote: There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the Public Right-of-Way The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities)
Paint works better than tape.? Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair.? I don’t think that there is any.? Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception? On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley < Ebuckley@...> wrote:
Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley
|
Hello all,,??
This is my first submission to this forum after having been following different threads quietly.?? One thing that interests?me is the process of developing standards and codification.? ?And this thread caught my attention as it started with question about there should be visual marking on each steps or just the first and last one?? ?And I appreciate the way discussions have turned out here..?? ?
I have gotten involved in a few projects that would contribute to formulation?of standard sand codes.? ? And I do operate from a theoretical?framework which insist real-world experience as a starting point.? ? Before I throw some weights on either approach, I want to make a comment on the scope of this discussion.??
Like the way codes and standards documents are being structured,? I think we need to step back to consider the scope of this discussion which seems to be limited to vision alone.?
Some personal disclosure here..? I am one with a kind of vision condition, at the moment retaining some residual vision.. Am able to discern colours, distance, and understand depth with vision alone.??
When all of you are discussing.? ?I find myself reflecting on my experience of walking down stairs and up.? ?
1. When I have?arrived?at the end of the stairway (or landing as they call it).? I would touch the rail..? Not necessarily grasping it..? Just touching to retain something that would inform me that there would be more steps ahead (Either way).? ??
2. While I am in touch with rail as a reliable cue that would inform me that there is more step ahead and that I am approaching to the?last step as it usually?happen when I get sense that I have reached the end of rail.? Then....? My kinesthetic memory would kick in.? As I understand that the height of each step is pretty much standardized.? ?Ranging between 4 to 7 inches.? ?Even through I can clearly see those visual markers as they sometimes?grab my attention but visual cue alone does nothing to inform about?the height of each step..? So usually, while being in contact with the rail,? either tip of my shoe would lightly feel up the first step (If going up).? Conversely,? My heel would descend slowly before landing top of second step (If going down0. n way my kinesthetic capability can take note of how deep it..? After that first step..? My body will know how much I need to raise or lower my legs for each steps front of me.? ? ??
So my sharing of the experience of walking down and up stairs is a demonstration of practice. using senses which often escape the discussion scope when talking about visual markers for steps.? ?And it seem that the vision being first identified as being a problem but tries to limit solution?in visual cue.? ? Without consideration for senses that are being available and already have been in use.? ?Make sense?? ? That's my general peeves when reading documents that offer guidance on standard and codes.?
Yes.. clearly as some have pointed out that this is intended for those with 'low vision'.? Not Blind.? ?So I will mention some merit for those visual marker.?
1.? It can inform someone that there is a stairway from a distance.? ? ? 2. It can inform sighted who have full range vision when one reaches last step.? ?Sighted as someone who have full vision range.. as in being able to pick these cues from periphery field without having to tilt one's head downward too much.??
That's it..? ?It does not help much with the process of walking along the stairway..? Nor can it offer important cues as to how tall each step are..? ?It is not possible.??
As?O&M trainer..? I would cringe at the existence of visual markers on each step because they have?misled and continue to mislead numbers of Blind and low vision people, especially those with low vision that these are there to prevent them from falling or tripping as long as they use their residual vision to catch each of them from start to end.? ? I would like this person to understand that there are more reliable and safe ways of going up and down stair - such as retaining architectural cues such as maintaining contact with rail and train to how to do kinesthetic scan (To pick up the information about steps) and kinesthetic?memory. (muscle memory) to go along each step?with ease.? ?
With it being said..? ? Now we are leave to consider the usefulness of having steps marked for each steps? I think that from a cognitive-processing?perspective -? ? This is a question?about our general expectation for architecture as? being third person..? ? Third person as something that could be retained as cues that offer support or sustain..? ? ? Imagine the question about which - first. and last marker or each?steps?could be translated as message that achtitectural as third person would communicate to you as you inhabit or move through space.??
"Start, Re-calibrate?then carry on until next as being the last one then again re-calibrate".? OR ?"HERE, here, here, Hopping between each one until there is no more as the pattern?ends".?
I think we know which offers the sublimity that one needs to fully utilize one's body.? ?As former seem to be focussing on the process as being transitional in essence.? Which is consistent with the essence of stairway - a transition.? Message should be about transition.? ? While latter one is making it being about the steps itself., drawing one's attention to it without really offeringw anything essential for one to get through the process.?
Now.? One things i would like to discuss about in order to expand that line of thinking is -? ?landing area..? and space that lead to stairway..? I think it is the area that is worth conversation.? ?These landing areas would inform one that one is approaching the stairway.? ? ?And how these features offer more sublime transition and consistency.? ?How the texture of flooring facilitates one to move the body in way it naturally makes contact with features that run in parallel with stairways such as rails.? Does they feel nice?? ?Often not..? It is often steel and hold..? ?And there is hygienic concern about grasing rail completely..? (That's why I said contact, not grasp completely earlier).? Could rail itself be re-conceptualized?? ??
?
On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 10:40?PM Kelly Phillips < saipantvi@...> wrote: Meg,? This is very helpful. It would be good if this could be universally recommended on O&M reports.?
Best, Kelly
On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 4:39?PM Meg Robertson via <mobilitymeg= [email protected]> wrote: There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the Public Right-of-Way The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities)
Paint works better than tape.? Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair.? I don’t think that there is any.? Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception? On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley < Ebuckley@...> wrote:
Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley
|
Hey Robert! John here: ? Wonderful thoughts here! ? I agree with you that a marker at the beginning and at the end of a mode is good, and that marking each step is not the message we want, nor does it offer anything. ? Now, I say this as someone who does love there to be redundancies.? I don’t think we should be so minimalist and include just ONE thing, because it then assumes that everyone is the same, everyone is equally alert, etc.? Which is never true.? And I don’t favor modes that demand us to be stretched thin.? I favor excess. ? However, marking every step is not that kind of excess and does not provide the strategic redundancy I have in mind.? It is just pointless. ? But the landings, now, yes, that’s where we can have fun developing multiple features that create the good kind of redundancy I mean. ? For example, I don’t always have my cane in front of me, or even with me.? it is often the case I like to go along in different ways.? Sometimes I just have my body, hands following along a wall, and letting my feet pick up what they may.? Or I am walking and talking with someone at the same time.? or I do indeed have my cane in front of me but my mind is preoccupied with something and I’m not that attuned. ? It has happened during any of those modes that I’d be surprised by a sudden drop—the first step down.? Or not surprised, because I’m aware on some level, a bit ahead of time, but not enough time for me to go down that first step gracefully.? LOY. ? As you know, in many places we PT folks do frequent, we tend to add a variety of cues to the landings.? This facilitates our movements and we never need our canes nor do we need to be alert.? Those robust cues allow us to do many things we wouldn’t otherwise be able to do quite as smoothly or with confidence.? For example, I wouldn’t carry something heavy with you on the other end if I also needed to prod and investigate to make sure not to drop down a step unexpectedly.? But with robust cues at the landing, sure, we can feel free to lug that heavy piece of furniture.? ? So robust cues in the right places and placed there for the right reasons do increase the range of possible activities we can engage in.? Without such robust cues, and if the environment demands that we be on high alert, it reduces the range of activities we feel invited to engage in. ? Landings are indeed one of the main sites where it is extremely worthwhile to invest in multiple kinds of cues—railing ends, balustrades, texture of the landing area, texture of wall spaces at the landings, etc. ? But each step?? No.? Not where this kind of redundancy is needed. ? Cheers, John ? ? ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Robert T. Sirvage Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 6:13 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [OandM] Stair markings ? This is my first submission to this forum after having been following different threads quietly.?? One thing that interests?me is the process of developing standards and codification.? ?And this thread caught my attention as it started with question about there should be visual marking on each steps or just the first and last one?? ?And I appreciate the way discussions have turned out here..?? ?
I have gotten involved in a few projects that would contribute to formulation?of standard sand codes.? ? And I do operate from a theoretical?framework which insist real-world experience as a starting point.? ? Before I throw some weights on either approach, I want to make a comment on the scope of this discussion.?? Like the way codes and standards documents are being structured,? I think we need to step back to consider the scope of this discussion which seems to be limited to vision alone.? Some personal disclosure here..? I am one with a kind of vision condition, at the moment retaining some residual vision.. Am able to discern colours, distance, and understand depth with vision alone.?? When all of you are discussing.? ?I find myself reflecting on my experience of walking down stairs and up.? ? 1. When I have?arrived?at the end of the stairway (or landing as they call it).? I would touch the rail..? Not necessarily grasping it..? Just touching to retain something that would inform me that there would be more steps ahead (Either way).? ?? 2. While I am in touch with rail as a reliable cue that would inform me that there is more step ahead and that I am approaching to the?last step as it usually?happen when I get sense that I have reached the end of rail.? Then....? My kinesthetic memory would kick in.? As I understand that the height of each step is pretty much standardized.? ?Ranging between 4 to 7 inches.? ?Even through I can clearly see those visual markers as they sometimes?grab my attention but visual cue alone does nothing to inform about?the height of each step..? So usually, while being in contact with the rail,? either tip of my shoe would lightly feel up the first step (If going up).? Conversely,? My heel would descend slowly before landing top of second step (If going down0. n way my kinesthetic capability can take note of how deep it..? After that first step..? My body will know how much I need to raise or lower my legs for each steps front of me.? ? ?? So my sharing of the experience of walking down and up stairs is a demonstration of practice. using senses which often escape the discussion scope when talking about visual markers for steps.? ?And it seem that the vision being first identified as being a problem but tries to limit solution?in visual cue.? ? Without consideration for senses that are being available and already have been in use.? ?Make sense?? ? That's my general peeves when reading documents that offer guidance on standard and codes.?
Yes.. clearly as some have pointed out that this is intended for those with 'low vision'.? Not Blind.? ?So I will mention some merit for those visual marker.?
1.? It can inform someone that there is a stairway from a distance.? ? ? 2. It can inform sighted who have full range vision when one reaches last step.? ?Sighted as someone who have full vision range.. as in being able to pick these cues from periphery field without having to tilt one's head downward too much.?? That's it..? ?It does not help much with the process of walking along the stairway..? Nor can it offer important cues as to how tall each step are..? ?It is not possible.?? As?O&M trainer..? I would cringe at the existence of visual markers on each step because they have?misled and continue to mislead numbers of Blind and low vision people, especially those with low vision that these are there to prevent them from falling or tripping as long as they use their residual vision to catch each of them from start to end.? ? I would like this person to understand that there are more reliable and safe ways of going up and down stair - such as retaining architectural cues such as maintaining contact with rail and train to how to do kinesthetic scan (To pick up the information about steps) and kinesthetic?memory. (muscle memory) to go along each step?with ease.? ? With it being said..? ? Now we are leave to consider the usefulness of having steps marked for each steps? I think that from a cognitive-processing?perspective -? ? This is a question?about our general expectation for architecture as? being third person..? ? Third person as something that could be retained as cues that offer support or sustain..? ? ? Imagine the question about which - first. and last marker or each?steps?could be translated as message that achtitectural as third person would communicate to you as you inhabit or move through space.?? "Start, Re-calibrate?then carry on until next as being the last one then again re-calibrate".? ?"HERE, here, here, Hopping between each one until there is no more as the pattern?ends".? I think we know which offers the sublimity that one needs to fully utilize one's body.? ?As former seem to be focussing on the process as being transitional in essence.? Which is consistent with the essence of stairway - a transition.? Message should be about transition.? ? While latter one is making it being about the steps itself., drawing one's attention to it without really offeringw anything essential for one to get through the process.? Now.? One things i would like to discuss about in order to expand that line of thinking is -? ?landing area..? and space that lead to stairway..? I think it is the area that is worth conversation.? ?These landing areas would inform one that one is approaching the stairway.? ? ?And how these features offer more sublime transition and consistency.? ?How the texture of flooring facilitates one to move the body in way it naturally makes contact with features that run in parallel with stairways such as rails.? Does they feel nice?? ?Often not..? It is often steel and hold..? ?And there is hygienic concern about grasing rail completely..? (That's why I said contact, not grasp completely earlier).? Could rail itself be re-conceptualized?? ?? ? On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 10:40?PM Kelly Phillips <saipantvi@...> wrote: Meg,? This is very helpful. It would be good if this could be universally recommended on O&M reports.? ? On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 4:39?PM Meg Robertson via <mobilitymeg=[email protected]> wrote: There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the Public Right-of-Way The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities) ? Paint works better than tape.? Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair.? I don’t think that there is any.? Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception?
On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley <Ebuckley@...> wrote: ? Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley
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Meg,
What happens when PROWAG indicates one condition and ADAAG indicates another?
It seems that ADAAG still has… Recommendation: ?Providing visual contrast (light-on-dark or dark-on-light) on the top and bottom steps that is approximately 2 inches wide and located either on nosings or at the leading edges of treads is helpful for people with low vision.
While the Final Rule for PROWAG states… The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1- inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on- light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.
—Christopher J. Tabb, M.A., COMSchris@...Mobile:??512.660.2750 Digital Badge ConfirmationImage: ACVREP Digital Badge for COMSConfidentiality Notice: This e-mail and?any attachments are intended only for the?individual or company to which it is?addressed and may contain proprietary?information which is intended only for?dissemination to its intended recipients. Further, this e-mail may also contain?Protected Health Information and related?materials whose usage & disclosure is?further governed by HIPAA//FERPA?and?other federal regulations. If you are not?the intended recipient, be advised that any?unauthorized use, disclosure, copying,?distribution, or the taking of any action in?reliance on the information contained?herein is strictly prohibited. If you have?received this e-mail and are not the?intended recipient, you are instructed to?notify the sender by reply e-mail and?destroy all copies of the original message.
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On Nov 30, 2023, at 2:39?PM, Meg Robertson via groups.io <mobilitymeg@...> wrote:
There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the Public Right-of-Way The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities)
Paint works better than tape. ?Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair. ?I don’t think that there is any. ?Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception? On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley <Ebuckley@...> wrote:
Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley
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Chris Tabb
