开云体育

Using the rail to determine end of stairway (was Stair markings)

Dona Sauerburger All Messages By This Member #1718 HI there Robert!? I love your insights about using your foot to find the end of the stairway.? That can indeed be very effective!? I had to smile as it reminded me of walking in total darkness in China along one of the narrow ledges that are on each side of a muddy, yucky road.? I used the "tai chi walk" I had just learned the day? before, keeping my weight on my back leg until I could be sure I hadn't reached the end of the ledge (described at ). ? Meanwhile, I stress to my students that the railing is great for providing support, but they should never use it to determine where the end of the stairway is.? There are too many instances where the railing ends one or more steps before the end.? I have pictures of some of the examples I've seen at? - one is inside one of our congressional buildings in Washington, DC and one is at Gallaudet University, and my friend let me take a picture of her descending a stairway at a restaurant where we were having dinner with my son Stephan. ? So it's important that we teach our students NOT to use the railing for anything but support. ? -- Dona Sauerburger ? toggle quoted message Show quoted text On 12/02/2023 7:13 PM EST Robert T. Sirvage <robert.sirvage@...> wrote: ? ? Hello all,,?? ? This is my first submission to this forum after having been following different threads quietly.?? One thing that interests?me is the process of developing standards and codification.? ?And this thread caught my attention as it started with question about there should be visual marking on each steps or just the first and last one?? ?And I appreciate the way discussions have turned out here..?? ? I have gotten involved in a few projects that would contribute to formulation?of standard sand codes.? ? And I do operate from a theoretical?framework which insist real-world experience as a starting point.? ? Before I throw some weights on either approach, I want to make a comment on the scope of this discussion.?? ? Like the way codes and standards documents are being structured,? I think we need to step back to consider the scope of this discussion which seems to be limited to vision alone.? ? Some personal disclosure here..? I am one with a kind of vision condition, at the moment retaining some residual vision.. Am able to discern colours, distance, and understand depth with vision alone.?? ? When all of you are discussing.? ?I find myself reflecting on my experience of walking down stairs and up.? ? ? 1. When I have?arrived?at the end of the stairway (or landing as they call it).? I would touch the rail..? Not necessarily grasping it..? Just touching to retain something that would inform me that there would be more steps ahead (Either way).? ?? ? 2. While I am in touch with rail as a reliable cue that would inform me that there is more step ahead and that I am approaching to the?last step as it usually?happen when I get sense that I have reached the end of rail.? Then....? My kinesthetic memory would kick in.? As I understand that the height of each step is pretty much standardized.? ?Ranging between 4 to 7 inches.? ?Even through I can clearly see those visual markers as they sometimes?grab my attention but visual cue alone does nothing to inform about?the height of each step..? So usually, while being in contact with the rail,? either tip of my shoe would lightly feel up the first step (If going up).? Conversely,? My heel would descend slowly before landing top of second step (If going down0. n way my kinesthetic capability can take note of how deep it..? After that first step..? My body will know how much I need to raise or lower my legs for each steps front of me.? ? ?? ? So my sharing of the experience of walking down and up stairs is a demonstration of practice. using senses which often escape the discussion scope when talking about visual markers for steps.? ?And it seem that the vision being first identified as being a problem but tries to limit solution?in visual cue.? ? Without consideration for senses that are being available and already have been in use.? ?Make sense?? ? That's my general peeves when reading documents that offer guidance on standard and codes.? Yes.. clearly as some have pointed out that this is intended for those with 'low vision'.? Not Blind.? ?So I will mention some merit for those visual marker.? ? 1.? It can inform someone that there is a stairway from a distance.? ? ? 2. It can inform sighted who have full range vision when one reaches last step.? ?Sighted as someone who have full vision range.. as in being able to pick these cues from periphery field without having to tilt one's head downward too much.?? ? That's it..? ?It does not help much with the process of walking along the stairway..? Nor can it offer important cues as to how tall each step are..? ?It is not possible.?? ? As?O&M trainer..? I would cringe at the existence of visual markers on each step because they have?misled and continue to mislead numbers of Blind and low vision people, especially those with low vision that these are there to prevent them from falling or tripping as long as they use their residual vision to catch each of them from start to end.? ? I would like this person to understand that there are more reliable and safe ways of going up and down stair - such as retaining architectural cues such as maintaining contact with rail and train to how to do kinesthetic scan (To pick up the information about steps) and kinesthetic?memory. (muscle memory) to go along each step?with ease.? ? ? With it being said..? ? Now we are leave to consider the usefulness of having steps marked for each steps? I think that from a cognitive-processing?perspective -? ? This is a question?about our general expectation for architecture as? being third person..? ? Third person as something that could be retained as cues that offer support or sustain..? ? ? Imagine the question about which - first. and last marker or each?steps?could be translated as message that achtitectural as third person would communicate to you as you inhabit or move through space.?? ? "Start, Re-calibrate?then carry on until next as being the last one then again re-calibrate".? OR ?"HERE, here, here, Hopping between each one until there is no more as the pattern?ends".? ? I think we know which offers the sublimity that one needs to fully utilize one's body.? ?As former seem to be focussing on the process as being transitional in essence.? Which is consistent with the essence of stairway - a transition.? Message should be about transition.? ? While latter one is making it being about the steps itself., drawing one's attention to it without really offeringw anything essential for one to get through the process.? ? Now.? One things i would like to discuss about in order to expand that line of thinking is -? ?landing area..? and space that lead to stairway..? I think it is the area that is worth conversation.? ?These landing areas would inform one that one is approaching the stairway.? ? ?And how these features offer more sublime transition and consistency.? ?How the texture of flooring facilitates one to move the body in way it naturally makes contact with features that run in parallel with stairways such as rails.? Does they feel nice?? ?Often not..? It is often steel and hold..? ?And there is hygienic concern about grasing rail completely..? (That's why I said contact, not grasp completely earlier).? Could rail itself be re-conceptualized?? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 10:40?PM Kelly Phillips <saipantvi@...> wrote: Meg,? This is very helpful. It would be good if this could be universally recommended on O&M reports.? ? Best, Kelly ? On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 4:39?PM Meg Robertson via <mobilitymeg=[email protected]> wrote: There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the Public Right-of-Way The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.^]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities) ? Paint works better than tape.? Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair.? I don’t think that there is any.? Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception? On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley <Ebuckley@...> wrote: Hello,? I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.? What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either?? Thanks in advance! Erin Buckley ? ? ? ? ? -- Robert T. Sirvage
Robert T. Sirvage All Messages By This Member #1720 Robert -? Thanks for sharing this chi tai walk..? It is cool to see a for a type of navigational procession.? Will definitely dig on that.? Dona, I am glad that you are throwing caution to your students that not all rail start or end with first/last steps.? That is true as I can personally vouch that I have came across to some of that.?? Now it brings me to ask some very interesting questions about O & M as field.?? Now, my background involved working with architects and designers.? And my study often delves back to studying the way people navigate and occupy space.? ? Now..? ?For me..? I see these?rails that do not extend alongside with the length of stairs fully is an example of bad design.? ? ?As bad as having a door knob placed 6 feet high on the door.? ?To me, good design means all architectural features are being synthesized?in way it work with our bodies and even becomes reliable enough to act as third person.? Having a built environment?allows our body to become part of the place.?? Now..? As I am glad that as orientation & mobility instructor, I am glad that you are cautioning about reliability? of some architectural features out there.?? However, as I understand that field of O&M focuses on practice.? ? How to use our body,? for most cases, re-learning our body in a way that allows us to meet the needs for safety, independence, and to have the ability to create new meanings within our daily lives.? ? ?Those questions about practices,? and it seem that it often naturally led people from the field to think and talk alot about f consideration about various designs.? ?And even take up the role as an advocate within discussion on what good design means or made substantial?contribution to development of standard and codes.? So here is what could appear to be a hen-egg question..?? Should we advocate design be something that enable or even promote bad practices, such as one with low vision sprinting up and down with their poor vision affix downward to watch pattern of bright color stripes without utilizing senses that they already have such as tactile or being allowed to be conscious of one's own kinesethicity??? Or as OM, we should focus on best practice.. The one that allows blinds to maintain personal safety, and independence in a way that they can create meanings in their life?? And let these to inform us about what good design mean and advocate for that design?? ?So that in turn, design would promote and advocate best practice??? Please see this as a theoretical question coming from one of oldest questions that architects and designers asks - which come first?? Function or forms..? Should function be shaped by form.. Or Form shaping functions.? ?In this case..? ?Which -? best practice shapes the idea on what?does good design mean or design taking on all kinds of practices, even bad one?? ? I already know that doing jumpjack in the middle of the stairway is not a good idea..? Smiles.?? In the meantime,? yes, it should be noted to students that not all designs out there are good or even sensible that need?correcting.? And yes, there is a fine line between understanding what ideal is? and the need to work with reality?just?as it is at the time.?? ? ? toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 7:12?PM Dona Sauerburger <dona@...> wrote: HI there Robert!? I love your insights about using your foot to find the end of the stairway.? That can indeed be very effective!? I had to smile as it reminded me of walking in total darkness in China along one of the narrow ledges that are on each side of a muddy, yucky road.? I used the "tai chi walk" I had just learned the day? before, keeping my weight on my back leg until I could be sure I hadn't reached the end of the ledge (described at ). ? Meanwhile, I stress to my students that the railing is great for providing support, but they should never use it to determine where the end of the stairway is.? There are too many instances where the railing ends one or more steps before the end.? I have pictures of some of the examples I've seen at? - one is inside one of our congressional buildings in Washington, DC and one is at Gallaudet University, and my friend let me take a picture of her descending a stairway at a restaurant where we were having dinner with my son Stephan. ? So it's important that we teach our students NOT to use the railing for anything but support. ? -- Dona Sauerburger ? On 12/02/2023 7:13 PM EST Robert T. Sirvage <robert.sirvage@...> wrote: ? ? Hello all,,?? ? This is my first submission to this forum after having been following different threads quietly.?? One thing that interests?me is the process of developing standards and codification.? ?And this thread caught my attention as it started with question about there should be visual marking on each steps or just the first and last one?? ?And I appreciate the way discussions have turned out here..?? ? I have gotten involved in a few projects that would contribute to formulation?of standard sand codes.? ? And I do operate from a theoretical?framework which insist real-world experience as a starting point.? ? Before I throw some weights on either approach, I want to make a comment on the scope of this discussion.?? ? Like the way codes and standards documents are being structured,? I think we need to step back to consider the scope of this discussion which seems to be limited to vision alone.? ? Some personal disclosure here..? I am one with a kind of vision condition, at the moment retaining some residual vision.. Am able to discern colours, distance, and understand depth with vision alone.?? ? When all of you are discussing.? ?I find myself reflecting on my experience of walking down stairs and up.? ? ? 1. When I have?arrived?at the end of the stairway (or landing as they call it).? I would touch the rail..? Not necessarily grasping it..? Just touching to retain something that would inform me that there would be more steps ahead (Either way).? ?? ? 2. While I am in touch with rail as a reliable cue that would inform me that there is more step ahead and that I am approaching to the?last step as it usually?happen when I get sense that I have reached the end of rail.? Then....? My kinesthetic memory would kick in.? As I understand that the height of each step is pretty much standardized.? ?Ranging between 4 to 7 inches.? ?Even through I can clearly see those visual markers as they sometimes?grab my attention but visual cue alone does nothing to inform about?the height of each step..? So usually, while being in contact with the rail,? either tip of my shoe would lightly feel up the first step (If going up).? Conversely,? My heel would descend slowly before landing top of second step (If going down0. n way my kinesthetic capability can take note of how deep it..? After that first step..? My body will know how much I need to raise or lower my legs for each steps front of me.? ? ?? ? So my sharing of the experience of walking down and up stairs is a demonstration of practice. using senses which often escape the discussion scope when talking about visual markers for steps.? ?And it seem that the vision being first identified as being a problem but tries to limit solution?in visual cue.? ? Without consideration for senses that are being available and already have been in use.? ?Make sense?? ? That's my general peeves when reading documents that offer guidance on standard and codes.? Yes.. clearly as some have pointed out that this is intended for those with 'low vision'.? Not Blind.? ?So I will mention some merit for those visual marker.? ? 1.? It can inform someone that there is a stairway from a distance.? ? ? 2. It can inform sighted who have full range vision when one reaches last step.? ?Sighted as someone who have full vision range.. as in being able to pick these cues from periphery field without having to tilt one's head downward too much.?? ? That's it..? ?It does not help much with the process of walking along the stairway..? Nor can it offer important cues as to how tall each step are..? ?It is not possible.?? ? As?O&M trainer..? I would cringe at the existence of visual markers on each step because they have?misled and continue to mislead numbers of Blind and low vision people, especially those with low vision that these are there to prevent them from falling or tripping as long as they use their residual vision to catch each of them from start to end.? ? I would like this person to understand that there are more reliable and safe ways of going up and down stair - such as retaining architectural cues such as maintaining contact with rail and train to how to do kinesthetic scan (To pick up the information about steps) and kinesthetic?memory. (muscle memory) to go along each step?with ease.? ? ? With it being said..? ? Now we are leave to consider the usefulness of having steps marked for each steps? I think that from a cognitive-processing?perspective -? ? This is a question?about our general expectation for architecture as? being third person..? ? Third person as something that could be retained as cues that offer support or sustain..? ? ? Imagine the question about which - first. and last marker or each?steps?could be translated as message that achtitectural as third person would communicate to you as you inhabit or move through space.?? ? "Start, Re-calibrate?then carry on until next as being the last one then again re-calibrate".? OR ?"HERE, here, here, Hopping between each one until there is no more as the pattern?ends".? ? I think we know which offers the sublimity that one needs to fully utilize one's body.? ?As former seem to be focussing on the process as being transitional in essence.? Which is consistent with the essence of stairway - a transition.? Message should be about transition.? ? While latter one is making it being about the steps itself., drawing one's attention to it without really offeringw anything essential for one to get through the process.? ? Now.? One things i would like to discuss about in order to expand that line of thinking is -? ?landing area..? and space that lead to stairway..? I think it is the area that is worth conversation.? ?These landing areas would inform one that one is approaching the stairway.? ? ?And how these features offer more sublime transition and consistency.? ?How the texture of flooring facilitates one to move the body in way it naturally makes contact with features that run in parallel with stairways such as rails.? Does they feel nice?? ?Often not..? It is often steel and hold..? ?And there is hygienic concern about grasing rail completely..? (That's why I said contact, not grasp completely earlier).? Could rail itself be re-conceptualized?? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 10:40?PM Kelly Phillips <saipantvi@...> wrote: Meg,? This is very helpful. It would be good if this could be universally recommended on O&M reports.? ? Best, Kelly ? On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 4:39?PM Meg Robertson via <mobilitymeg=[email protected]> wrote: There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the Public Right-of-Way The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.^]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities) ? Paint works better than tape.? Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair.? I don’t think that there is any.? Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception? On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley <Ebuckley@...> wrote: Hello,? I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.? What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either?? Thanks in advance! Erin Buckley ? ? ? ? ? -- Robert T. Sirvage -- Robert T. Sirvage

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