On Nov 30, 2023, at 2:39?PM, Meg Robertson via groups.io <mobilitymeg@...> wrote:

There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the Public Right-of-Way

The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.^]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities)

Paint works better than tape. ?Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair. ?I don’t think that there is any. ?Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception?

On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley <Ebuckley@...> wrote:

Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley

?

Michael, since they took away accessiblity from the intersections, I would first contact the Traffic Engineer & ADA Coordinator of the City to file a complaint, with in the city’s process and then begin an ADA complaint process with the DOJ. (Mention to the City officials that this is a lawsuit waiting to happen and you are trying to have the City avoid a lawsuit, they will lose.) ?There was no reason they couldn’t have added accessiblity options to the new signals. ?This is new construction, there is no reason for removing accessiblity. ?Did they not know that removing accessiblity is against the ?ADA? ?I just don’t think they understood what was done to accessiblity vs what they are trying to do with the roads for traffic vs the needs of all pedestrians.

On Dec 5, 2023, at 9:41?AM, Michael Byington <ByingtonCOMS@...> wrote:

This seems to be a good thread to plug this information into. I want to tell you all about a related advocacy issue we have going on in my hometown of Topeka, and about some of the barriers we have already faced down in filing a complaint. I will keep this list informed on our progress, although I do not expect things to move very fast, so there may be no updates for a while.?

?

The City of Topeka, Kansas has removed a significant number of red-green push button mid-block crossing signals throughout the City, and replaced them with inaccessible rapidly repeating flashing beacons (RRFB)s, with no accessibility features. These, of course, even assuming the user can find the button, do not offer the degree of pedestrian protection offered by even otherwise inaccessible red-green push button crosswalk signals. ?They have also converted some always on coo-coo-tweet signals to push button activation only. ?The push button signals do not have locator tones, and are not properly placed. That generally negates the functionality of the audible signals because blind pedestrians can not find the buttons to activate them. These are signals that have been audible for over 30 years, so local blind pedestrians are accustomed to them. ?Further, They have removed a fully accessible signal, under current standards, located at an intersection at which both City Hall and the County Courthouse are located, and replaced it with one RRFB, only controlling one leg of the plus style intersection. It is in their plans to remove another fully accessible signal, under current standards and replace it also with an RRFB; this one is located at a corner directly adjoining the City Metro Bus Transfer area. ?

?

I am not sure why there has been no objections raised to the replacement of the red-green crosswalk signals throughout the City with inaccessible RRFBs up until now, but as to the modification of the crosswalk signals where push buttons have been installed without locator tones, and the removal of completely accessible signals at ?intersections at which major public accommodations are located., these things are impacting the accessibility of the built environment throughout the City. As a COMS who teaches a lot in downtown Topeka, it has certainly been very noticeable to me and the clients with whom I work.?

?

In a recent meeting, which some blind pedestrians and I requested with the City ADA Coordinator. And three officials from the City traffic Department, The traffic officials agreed to have a second RRFB placed at the intersection in front of the City building and Courthouse, put locator tones on the new RRFBs being installed, and on the signals that have been altered from their always-on status. They would not agree to putting back the fully accessible signal that had been removed. They would not agree to halt plans to remove the accessible signal in front of the bus transfer center. ?They just laughed at us when I suggested that all of the red-green midblock crosswalks that have been converted to RRFBs should be put back to their red-green status, with locator tones. The reason that they said that they were taking these positions was that they alleged that the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices, hereafter referred to as “the Manual” REQUIRED that they take all of the actions which had been taken and are planned. They said that they had done traffic studies that documented that the fully accessible signals are not necessary or required where the changes are being made.?

?

I am familiar with the Manual, although I do not own a current copy. I do not believe, however, that it supports making the built environment less accessible, which is what the changes noted here in Topeka are doing. ?

?

The Topeka Association of the Blind and Visually Impaired (TABVI), and affiliate of the American Council of the Blind (ACB) agreed with me when I presented a report concerning the above described access issues at one of their meetings. They agreed to join me ?in any complaint processes that would be filed concerning these issues.?

?

I have filed a number of ADA complaints sense the adoption of this law, and on behalf of a number of persons with disabilities, and entities representing them. I have been successful with several of these. I was thus aware that this complaint would ultimately be handled within the US Department of Transportation, but I was not sure about the direct filing processes. I contacted the Access Board concerning obtaining this information. I was assured that they would email it to me. Two follow up contacts when I did not receive it still did not result in my doing so. So I went ahead and filed it through the US Department of Justice Civil Rights Complaint Clearing office. I have indeed received notice of the complaint being forwarded to the proper authorities in the Department of Transportation, but so far, I have been unable to reach a live person to discuss it further.?

?

We will not let this drop. I know how to advocate through Congressional offices, etc. to place additional attention on the issues. I certainly would welcome assistance, however, from anyone who has been involved with similar situations, has greater knowledge of the Manual,?

Or can assist us in rattling some cages concerning these issues.?

Michael Byington, Certified Orientation and Mobility Specialist

President of Kansas Association for the Blind and Visually Impaired, Inc.

Membership Coordinator for Friends In Art of the American Council of the Blind

712 S. Kansas Avenue

Suite 414D-F

Topeka, Kansas 66603

(785) 221-7111

ByingtonCOMS@...

?

?

From:?[email protected]?<[email protected]>?On Behalf Of?Meg Robertson via?
Sent:?Sunday, December 3, 2023 2:50 PM
To:?[email protected]
Cc:?Robert T. Sirvage <robert.sirvage@...>
Subject:?Re: [OandM] Chicken or egg - good architectural design, or good strategies that transcend design?

?

Thanks Dona, for the below comments. ?In this discussion, I would add that when I began in the professional over 35 years ago, our course work was mainly based on working with totally blind individuals. ?Now a majority of our students (all ages) have vision loss vs total blindness. ?Use of a mobility device will assist one in locating drop offs but marking the stairs will help not just those with vision loss but others with depth perception issues and/or older individuals without legal blindness vision loss. As an older sighted person, I find unmarked stairs some times very frustrating in traveling down. ?As Dona stated, at one time there was always a work around for most environmental access issues impacting a traveler with vision loss/blindness but that is no longer the case. ?As professionals we need to help advocate for changes to improve access to the built environmental to be sure travelers with vision loss/bllndness are not impacted negatively when ?‘improvements’ are made. (complex intersections & wayfinding, placement of curb cuts, lighting in buildings, etc.)?

?

Great discussion.?

?

Meg Robertson COMS

Chair AER O&M Environmental Access Committee

?

?

On Dec 2, 2023, at 9:40?PM, Dona Sauerburger <dona@...> wrote:

?

Sending again after fixing some typos (this response is based on my 54 years in O&M):

?

Omigosh, Robert, you’ve raised SUCH a profound question!!! ?

?

For the first 30 or 40 years of our profession, we focused only on strategies to deal with the environment as it was. ? It never occurred to us to ask or even advocate for environments that could make travel easy and safe for blind people – we (O&M’s and blind people) prided ourselves in the ability to figure out how to get around without vision, no matter what was thrown at us.

?

I think the first time we started realizing that we needed to have some input on the development of our world was when traffic signals became too complicated to figure out without access to the pedestrian signal, and it was no longer possible to rely on the strategy of “cross when quiet” at uncontrolled crossings.?

?

At about the same time, curb cuts that made crossings possible for people in wheelchairs removed reliable non-visual information about the location of the street, which put blind people at great risk.

?

That is when we started seriously collaborating with traffic engineers and architects and designers to advocate for consistency and predictability and access to non-visual information that are neededfor safe travel.

?

So I guess a quick answer (based on just a few minutes of thought) is that we continue to advocate for environments that are easy to navigate with limited or no vision, while at the same time developing and teaching strategies for blind people to deal with the environment as it exists.

?

— Dona

—————————

Dona Sauerburger, COMS

Certified Orientation and Mobility Specialist for the blind

On Dec 2, 2023, at 11:15 PM, Robert T. Sirvage <robert.sirvage@...> wrote:

?

Robert -?

?

Thanks for sharing this chi tai walk..? It is cool to see a for a type of navigational procession.? Will definitely dig on that.?

?

Dona, I am glad that you are throwing caution to your students that not all rail start or end with first/last steps.? That is true as I can personally vouch that I have came across to some of that.??

Now it brings me to ask some very interesting questions about O & M as field.??

?

Now, my background involved working with architects and designers.? And my study often delves back to studying the way people navigate and occupy space.? ?

?

Now..? ?For me..? I see these?rails that do not extend alongside with the length of stairs fully is an example of bad design.? ? ?As bad as having a door knob placed 6 feet high on the door.? ?To me, good design means all architectural features are being synthesized?in way it work with our bodies and even becomes reliable enough to act as third person.? Having a built environment?allows our body to become part of the place.??

?

Now..? As I am glad that as orientation & mobility instructor, I am glad that you are cautioning about reliability? of some architectural features out there.??

However, as I understand that field of O&M focuses on practice.? ? How to use our body,? for most cases, re-learning our body in a way that allows us to meet the needs for safety, independence, and to have the ability to create new meanings within our daily lives.? ? ?Those questions about practices,? and it seem that it often naturally led people from the field to think and talk alot about f consideration about various designs.? ?And even take up the role as an advocate within discussion on what good design means or made substantial?contribution to development of standard and codes.?

?

So here is what could appear to be a hen-egg question..??

Should we advocate design be something that enable or even promote bad practices, such as one with low vision sprinting up and down with their poor vision affix downward to watch pattern of bright color stripes without utilizing senses that they already have such as tactile or being allowed to be conscious of one's own kinesethicity???

?

Or as OM, we should focus on best practice.. The one that allows blinds to maintain personal safety, and independence in a way that they can create meanings in their life?? And let these to inform us about what good design mean and advocate for that design?? ?So that in turn, design would promote and advocate best practice???

?

Please see this as a theoretical question coming from one of oldest questions that architects and designers asks - which come first?? Function or forms..? Should function be shaped by form.. Or Form shaping functions.? ?In this case..? ?Which -? best practice shapes the idea on what?does good design mean or design taking on all kinds of practices, even bad one?? ? I already know that doing jumpjack in the middle of the stairway is not a good idea..? Smiles.??

?

In the meantime,? yes, it should be noted to students that not all designs out there are good or even sensible that need?correcting.? And yes, there is a fine line between understanding what ideal is? and the need to work with reality?just?as it is at the time.??

?

?

?

?

?

On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 7:12?PM Dona Sauerburger <dona@...> wrote:

HI there Robert!? I love your insights about using your foot to find the end of the stairway.? That can indeed be very effective!? I had to smile as it reminded me of walking in total darkness in China along one of the narrow ledges that are on each side of a muddy, yucky road.? I used the "tai chi walk" I had just learned the day? before, keeping my weight on my back leg until I could be sure I hadn't reached the end of the ledge (described at?).?

??

Meanwhile, I stress to my students that the railing is great for providing support, but they should never use it to determine where the end of the stairway is.? There are too many instances where the railing ends one or more steps?before?the end.? I have pictures of some of the examples I've seen at??- one is inside one of our congressional buildings in Washington, DC and one is at Gallaudet University, and my friend let me take a picture of her descending a stairway at a restaurant where we were having dinner with my son Stephan.?

??

So it's important that we teach our students NOT to use the railing for anything but support.?

??

-- Dona Sauerburger?

??

On 12/02/2023 7:13 PM EST Robert T. Sirvage <robert.sirvage@...> wrote:?

??

??

Hello all,,???

??

This is my first submission to this forum after having been following different threads quietly.???

One thing that interests?me is the process of developing standards and codification.? ?And this thread caught my attention as it started with question about there should be visual marking on each steps or just the first and last one?? ?And I appreciate the way discussions have turned out here..???

??
I have gotten involved in a few projects that would contribute to formulation?of standard sand codes.? ? And I do operate from a theoretical?framework which insist real-world experience as a starting point.? ? Before I throw some weights on either approach, I want to make a comment on the scope of this discussion.???

??

Like the way codes and standards documents are being structured,? I think we need to step back to consider the scope of this discussion which seems to be limited to vision alone.??

??

Some personal disclosure here..? I am one with a kind of vision condition, at the moment retaining some residual vision.. Am able to discern colours, distance, and understand depth with vision alone.???

??

When all of you are discussing.? ?I find myself reflecting on my experience of walking down stairs and up.? ??

??

1. When I have?arrived?at the end of the stairway (or landing as they call it).? I would touch the rail..? Not necessarily grasping it..? Just touching to retain something that would inform me that there would be more steps ahead (Either way).? ???

??

2. While I am in touch with rail as a reliable cue that would inform me that there is more step ahead and that I am approaching to the?last step as it usually?happen when I get sense that I have reached the end of rail.? Then....? My kinesthetic memory would kick in.? As I understand that the height of each step is pretty much standardized.? ?Ranging between 4 to 7 inches.? ?Even through I can clearly see those visual markers as they sometimes?grab my attention but visual cue alone does nothing to inform about?the height of each step..? So usually, while being in contact with the rail,? either tip of my shoe would lightly feel up the first step (If going up).? Conversely,? My heel would descend slowly before landing top of second step (If going down0. n way my kinesthetic capability can take note of how deep it..? After that first step..? My body will know how much I need to raise or lower my legs for each steps front of me.? ? ???

??

So my sharing of the experience of walking down and up stairs is a demonstration of practice. using senses which often escape the discussion scope when talking about visual markers for steps.? ?And it seem that the vision being first identified as being a problem but tries to limit solution?in visual cue.? ? Without consideration for senses that are being available and already have been in use.? ?Make sense?? ? That's my general peeves when reading documents that offer guidance on standard and codes.??

Yes.. clearly as some have pointed out that this is intended for those with 'low vision'.? Not Blind.? ?So I will mention some merit for those visual marker.??

??

1.? It can inform someone that there is a stairway from a distance.? ? ??

2. It can inform sighted who have full range vision when one reaches last step.? ?Sighted as someone who have full vision range.. as in being able to pick these cues from periphery field without having to tilt one's head downward too much.???

??

That's it..? ?It does not help much with the process of walking along the stairway..? Nor can it offer important cues as to how tall each step are..? ?It is not possible.???

??

As?O&M trainer..? I would cringe at the existence of visual markers on each step because they have?misled and continue to mislead numbers of Blind and low vision people, especially those with low vision that these are there to prevent them from falling or tripping as long as they use their residual vision to catch each of them from start to end.? ? I would like this person to understand that there are more reliable and safe ways of going up and down stair - such as retaining architectural cues such as maintaining contact with rail and train to how to do kinesthetic scan (To pick up the information about steps) and kinesthetic?memory. (muscle memory) to go along each step?with ease.? ??

??

With it being said..? ? Now we are leave to consider the usefulness of having steps marked for each steps??

I think that from a cognitive-processing?perspective -? ? This is a question?about our general expectation for architecture as? being third person..? ? Third person as something that could be retained as cues that offer support or sustain..? ? ??

Imagine the question about which - first. and last marker or each?steps?could be translated as message that achtitectural as third person would communicate to you as you inhabit or move through space.???

??

"Start, Re-calibrate?then carry on until next as being the last one then again re-calibrate".??

OR?

?"HERE, here, here, Hopping between each one until there is no more as the pattern?ends".??

??

I think we know which offers the sublimity that one needs to fully utilize one's body.? ?As former seem to be focussing on the process as being transitional in essence.? Which is consistent with the essence of stairway - a transition.? Message should be about transition.? ? While latter one is making it being about the steps itself., drawing one's attention to it without really offeringw anything essential for one to get through the process.??

??

Now.? One things i would like to discuss about in order to expand that line of thinking is -? ?landing area..? and space that lead to stairway..? I think it is the area that is worth conversation.? ?These landing areas would inform one that one is approaching the stairway.? ? ?And how these features offer more sublime transition and consistency.? ?How the texture of flooring facilitates one to move the body in way it naturally makes contact with features that run in parallel with stairways such as rails.? Does they feel nice?? ?Often not..? It is often steel and hold..? ?And there is hygienic concern about grasing rail completely..? (That's why I said contact, not grasp completely earlier).? Could rail itself be re-conceptualized?? ???

??

??

??

??

??

??

??

??

??

??

?

On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 10:40?PM Kelly Phillips <saipantvi@...> wrote:?

Meg,??

This is very helpful. It would be good if this could be universally recommended on O&M reports.??

??

Best,?

Kelly?

??

?

On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 4:39?PM Meg Robertson via??<mobilitymeg=[email protected]> wrote:?

There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the?Public Right-of-Way

The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.^]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities)

?

Paint works better than tape.? Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair.? I don’t think that there is any.? Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception?

On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley <Ebuckley@...> wrote:?

?

Hello,??
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.??
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either???
Thanks in advance!?
Erin Buckley?

?

?

?

?

??

--?

Robert T. Sirvage?

?

--?

Robert T. Sirvage

?

?

Thanks Dona, for the below comments. ?In this discussion, I would add that when I began in the professional over 35 years ago, our course work was mainly based on working with totally blind individuals. ?Now a majority of our students (all ages) have vision loss vs total blindness. ?Use of a mobility device will assist one in locating drop offs but marking the stairs will help not just those with vision loss but others with depth perception issues and/or older individuals without legal blindness vision loss. As an older sighted person, I find unmarked stairs some times very frustrating in traveling down. ?As Dona stated, at one time there was always a work around for most environmental access issues impacting a traveler with vision loss/blindness but that is no longer the case. ?As professionals we need to help advocate for changes to improve access to the built environmental to be sure travelers with vision loss/bllndness are not impacted negatively when ?‘improvements’ are made. (complex intersections & wayfinding, placement of curb cuts, lighting in buildings, etc.)?

On Dec 2, 2023, at 9:40?PM, Dona Sauerburger <dona@...> wrote:

Sending again after fixing some typos (this response is based on my 54 years in O&M):

Omigosh, Robert, you’ve raised SUCH a profound question!!! ?

For the first 30 or 40 years of our profession, we focused only on strategies to deal with the environment as it was. ? It never occurred to us to ask or even advocate for environments that could make travel easy and safe for blind people – we (O&M’s and blind people) prided ourselves in the ability to figure out how to get around without vision, no matter what was thrown at us.

I think the first time we started realizing that we needed to have some input on the development of our world was when traffic signals became too complicated to figure out without access to the pedestrian signal, and it was no longer possible to rely on the strategy of “cross when quiet” at uncontrolled crossings.?

At about the same time, curb cuts that made crossings possible for people in wheelchairs removed reliable non-visual information about the location of the street, which put blind people at great risk.

That is when we started seriously collaborating with traffic engineers and architects and designers to advocate for consistency and predictability and access to non-visual information that are neededfor safe travel.

So I guess a quick answer (based on just a few minutes of thought) is that we continue to advocate for environments that are easy to navigate with limited or no vision, while at the same time developing and teaching strategies for blind people to deal with the environment as it exists.

— Dona

—————————

Dona Sauerburger, COMS

Certified Orientation and Mobility Specialist for the blind

www.sauerburger.org

On Dec 2, 2023, at 11:15 PM, Robert T. Sirvage <robert.sirvage@...> wrote:

?

Robert -?

Thanks for sharing this chi tai walk..? It is cool to see a for a type of navigational procession.? Will definitely dig on that.?

Dona, I am glad that you are throwing caution to your students that not all rail start or end with first/last steps.? That is true as I can personally vouch that I have came across to some of that.??

Now it brings me to ask some very interesting questions about O & M as field.??

Now, my background involved working with architects and designers.? And my study often delves back to studying the way people navigate and occupy space.? ?

Now..? ?For me..? I see these?rails that do not extend alongside with the length of stairs fully is an example of bad design.? ? ?As bad as having a door knob placed 6 feet high on the door.? ?To me, good design means all architectural features are being synthesized?in way it work with our bodies and even becomes reliable enough to act as third person.? Having a built environment?allows our body to become part of the place.??

Now..? As I am glad that as orientation & mobility instructor, I am glad that you are cautioning about reliability? of some architectural features out there.??

However, as I understand that field of O&M focuses on practice.? ? How to use our body,? for most cases, re-learning our body in a way that allows us to meet the needs for safety, independence, and to have the ability to create new meanings within our daily lives.? ? ?Those questions about practices,? and it seem that it often naturally led people from the field to think and talk alot about f consideration about various designs.? ?And even take up the role as an advocate within discussion on what good design means or made substantial?contribution to development of standard and codes.?

So here is what could appear to be a hen-egg question..??

Should we advocate design be something that enable or even promote bad practices, such as one with low vision sprinting up and down with their poor vision affix downward to watch pattern of bright color stripes without utilizing senses that they already have such as tactile or being allowed to be conscious of one's own kinesethicity???

Or as OM, we should focus on best practice.. The one that allows blinds to maintain personal safety, and independence in a way that they can create meanings in their life?? And let these to inform us about what good design mean and advocate for that design?? ?So that in turn, design would promote and advocate best practice???

Please see this as a theoretical question coming from one of oldest questions that architects and designers asks - which come first?? Function or forms..? Should function be shaped by form.. Or Form shaping functions.? ?In this case..? ?Which -? best practice shapes the idea on what?does good design mean or design taking on all kinds of practices, even bad one?? ? I already know that doing jumpjack in the middle of the stairway is not a good idea..? Smiles.??

In the meantime,? yes, it should be noted to students that not all designs out there are good or even sensible that need?correcting.? And yes, there is a fine line between understanding what ideal is? and the need to work with reality?just?as it is at the time.??

?

?

On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 7:12?PM Dona Sauerburger <dona@...> wrote:

HI there Robert!? I love your insights about using your foot to find the end of the stairway.? That can indeed be very effective!? I had to smile as it reminded me of walking in total darkness in China along one of the narrow ledges that are on each side of a muddy, yucky road.? I used the "tai chi walk" I had just learned the day? before, keeping my weight on my back leg until I could be sure I hadn't reached the end of the ledge (described at ).

?

Meanwhile, I stress to my students that the railing is great for providing support, but they should never use it to determine where the end of the stairway is.? There are too many instances where the railing ends one or more steps before the end.? I have pictures of some of the examples I've seen at? - one is inside one of our congressional buildings in Washington, DC and one is at Gallaudet University, and my friend let me take a picture of her descending a stairway at a restaurant where we were having dinner with my son Stephan.

?

So it's important that we teach our students NOT to use the railing for anything but support.

?

-- Dona Sauerburger

?

On 12/02/2023 7:13 PM EST Robert T. Sirvage <robert.sirvage@...> wrote:

?

?

Hello all,,??

?

This is my first submission to this forum after having been following different threads quietly.??

One thing that interests?me is the process of developing standards and codification.? ?And this thread caught my attention as it started with question about there should be visual marking on each steps or just the first and last one?? ?And I appreciate the way discussions have turned out here..??

?
I have gotten involved in a few projects that would contribute to formulation?of standard sand codes.? ? And I do operate from a theoretical?framework which insist real-world experience as a starting point.? ? Before I throw some weights on either approach, I want to make a comment on the scope of this discussion.??

?

Like the way codes and standards documents are being structured,? I think we need to step back to consider the scope of this discussion which seems to be limited to vision alone.?

?

Some personal disclosure here..? I am one with a kind of vision condition, at the moment retaining some residual vision.. Am able to discern colours, distance, and understand depth with vision alone.??

?

When all of you are discussing.? ?I find myself reflecting on my experience of walking down stairs and up.? ?

?

1. When I have?arrived?at the end of the stairway (or landing as they call it).? I would touch the rail..? Not necessarily grasping it..? Just touching to retain something that would inform me that there would be more steps ahead (Either way).? ??

?

2. While I am in touch with rail as a reliable cue that would inform me that there is more step ahead and that I am approaching to the?last step as it usually?happen when I get sense that I have reached the end of rail.? Then....? My kinesthetic memory would kick in.? As I understand that the height of each step is pretty much standardized.? ?Ranging between 4 to 7 inches.? ?Even through I can clearly see those visual markers as they sometimes?grab my attention but visual cue alone does nothing to inform about?the height of each step..? So usually, while being in contact with the rail,? either tip of my shoe would lightly feel up the first step (If going up).? Conversely,? My heel would descend slowly before landing top of second step (If going down0. n way my kinesthetic capability can take note of how deep it..? After that first step..? My body will know how much I need to raise or lower my legs for each steps front of me.? ? ??

?

So my sharing of the experience of walking down and up stairs is a demonstration of practice. using senses which often escape the discussion scope when talking about visual markers for steps.? ?And it seem that the vision being first identified as being a problem but tries to limit solution?in visual cue.? ? Without consideration for senses that are being available and already have been in use.? ?Make sense?? ? That's my general peeves when reading documents that offer guidance on standard and codes.?

Yes.. clearly as some have pointed out that this is intended for those with 'low vision'.? Not Blind.? ?So I will mention some merit for those visual marker.?

?

1.? It can inform someone that there is a stairway from a distance.? ? ?

2. It can inform sighted who have full range vision when one reaches last step.? ?Sighted as someone who have full vision range.. as in being able to pick these cues from periphery field without having to tilt one's head downward too much.??

?

That's it..? ?It does not help much with the process of walking along the stairway..? Nor can it offer important cues as to how tall each step are..? ?It is not possible.??

?

As?O&M trainer..? I would cringe at the existence of visual markers on each step because they have?misled and continue to mislead numbers of Blind and low vision people, especially those with low vision that these are there to prevent them from falling or tripping as long as they use their residual vision to catch each of them from start to end.? ? I would like this person to understand that there are more reliable and safe ways of going up and down stair - such as retaining architectural cues such as maintaining contact with rail and train to how to do kinesthetic scan (To pick up the information about steps) and kinesthetic?memory. (muscle memory) to go along each step?with ease.? ?

?

With it being said..? ? Now we are leave to consider the usefulness of having steps marked for each steps?

I think that from a cognitive-processing?perspective -? ? This is a question?about our general expectation for architecture as? being third person..? ? Third person as something that could be retained as cues that offer support or sustain..? ? ?

Imagine the question about which - first. and last marker or each?steps?could be translated as message that achtitectural as third person would communicate to you as you inhabit or move through space.??

?

"Start, Re-calibrate?then carry on until next as being the last one then again re-calibrate".?

OR

?"HERE, here, here, Hopping between each one until there is no more as the pattern?ends".?

?

I think we know which offers the sublimity that one needs to fully utilize one's body.? ?As former seem to be focussing on the process as being transitional in essence.? Which is consistent with the essence of stairway - a transition.? Message should be about transition.? ? While latter one is making it being about the steps itself., drawing one's attention to it without really offeringw anything essential for one to get through the process.?

?

Now.? One things i would like to discuss about in order to expand that line of thinking is -? ?landing area..? and space that lead to stairway..? I think it is the area that is worth conversation.? ?These landing areas would inform one that one is approaching the stairway.? ? ?And how these features offer more sublime transition and consistency.? ?How the texture of flooring facilitates one to move the body in way it naturally makes contact with features that run in parallel with stairways such as rails.? Does they feel nice?? ?Often not..? It is often steel and hold..? ?And there is hygienic concern about grasing rail completely..? (That's why I said contact, not grasp completely earlier).? Could rail itself be re-conceptualized?? ??

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 10:40?PM Kelly Phillips <saipantvi@...> wrote:

Meg,?

This is very helpful. It would be good if this could be universally recommended on O&M reports.?

?

Best,

Kelly

?

On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 4:39?PM Meg Robertson via <mobilitymeg=[email protected]> wrote:

There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the Public Right-of-Way

The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.^]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities)

?

Paint works better than tape.? Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair.? I don’t think that there is any.? Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception?

On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley <Ebuckley@...> wrote:

Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley

?

?

?

?

?

--

Robert T. Sirvage

--

Robert T. Sirvage

On Dec 2, 2023, at 11:15 PM, Robert T. Sirvage <robert.sirvage@...> wrote:

?

Robert -?

Thanks for sharing this chi tai walk..? It is cool to see a for a type of navigational procession.? Will definitely dig on that.?

Dona, I am glad that you are throwing caution to your students that not all rail start or end with first/last steps.? That is true as I can personally vouch that I have came across to some of that.??

Now it brings me to ask some very interesting questions about O & M as field.??

Now, my background involved working with architects and designers.? And my study often delves back to studying the way people navigate and occupy space.? ?

Now..? ?For me..? I see these?rails that do not extend alongside with the length of stairs fully is an example of bad design.? ? ?As bad as having a door knob placed 6 feet high on the door.? ?To me, good design means all architectural features are being synthesized?in way it work with our bodies and even becomes reliable enough to act as third person.? Having a built environment?allows our body to become part of the place.??

Now..? As I am glad that as orientation & mobility instructor, I am glad that you are cautioning about reliability? of some architectural features out there.??

However, as I understand that field of O&M focuses on practice.? ? How to use our body,? for most cases, re-learning our body in a way that allows us to meet the needs for safety, independence, and to have the ability to create new meanings within our daily lives.? ? ?Those questions about practices,? and it seem that it often naturally led people from the field to think and talk alot about f consideration about various designs.? ?And even take up the role as an advocate within discussion on what good design means or made substantial?contribution to development of standard and codes.?

So here is what could appear to be a hen-egg question..??

Should we advocate design be something that enable or even promote bad practices, such as one with low vision sprinting up and down with their poor vision affix downward to watch pattern of bright color stripes without utilizing senses that they already have such as tactile or being allowed to be conscious of one's own kinesethicity???

Or as OM, we should focus on best practice.. The one that allows blinds to maintain personal safety, and independence in a way that they can create meanings in their life?? And let these to inform us about what good design mean and advocate for that design?? ?So that in turn, design would promote and advocate best practice???

Please see this as a theoretical question coming from one of oldest questions that architects and designers asks - which come first?? Function or forms..? Should function be shaped by form.. Or Form shaping functions.? ?In this case..? ?Which -? best practice shapes the idea on what?does good design mean or design taking on all kinds of practices, even bad one?? ? I already know that doing jumpjack in the middle of the stairway is not a good idea..? Smiles.??

In the meantime,? yes, it should be noted to students that not all designs out there are good or even sensible that need?correcting.? And yes, there is a fine line between understanding what ideal is? and the need to work with reality?just?as it is at the time.??

?

?

On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 7:12?PM Dona Sauerburger <dona@...> wrote:

HI there Robert!? I love your insights about using your foot to find the end of the stairway.? That can indeed be very effective!? I had to smile as it reminded me of walking in total darkness in China along one of the narrow ledges that are on each side of a muddy, yucky road.? I used the "tai chi walk" I had just learned the day? before, keeping my weight on my back leg until I could be sure I hadn't reached the end of the ledge (described at ).

?

Meanwhile, I stress to my students that the railing is great for providing support, but they should never use it to determine where the end of the stairway is.? There are too many instances where the railing ends one or more steps before the end.? I have pictures of some of the examples I've seen at? - one is inside one of our congressional buildings in Washington, DC and one is at Gallaudet University, and my friend let me take a picture of her descending a stairway at a restaurant where we were having dinner with my son Stephan.

?

So it's important that we teach our students NOT to use the railing for anything but support.

?

-- Dona Sauerburger

?

On 12/02/2023 7:13 PM EST Robert T. Sirvage <robert.sirvage@...> wrote:

?

?

Hello all,,??

?

This is my first submission to this forum after having been following different threads quietly.??

One thing that interests?me is the process of developing standards and codification.? ?And this thread caught my attention as it started with question about there should be visual marking on each steps or just the first and last one?? ?And I appreciate the way discussions have turned out here..??

?
I have gotten involved in a few projects that would contribute to formulation?of standard sand codes.? ? And I do operate from a theoretical?framework which insist real-world experience as a starting point.? ? Before I throw some weights on either approach, I want to make a comment on the scope of this discussion.??

?

Like the way codes and standards documents are being structured,? I think we need to step back to consider the scope of this discussion which seems to be limited to vision alone.?

?

Some personal disclosure here..? I am one with a kind of vision condition, at the moment retaining some residual vision.. Am able to discern colours, distance, and understand depth with vision alone.??

?

When all of you are discussing.? ?I find myself reflecting on my experience of walking down stairs and up.? ?

?

1. When I have?arrived?at the end of the stairway (or landing as they call it).? I would touch the rail..? Not necessarily grasping it..? Just touching to retain something that would inform me that there would be more steps ahead (Either way).? ??

?

2. While I am in touch with rail as a reliable cue that would inform me that there is more step ahead and that I am approaching to the?last step as it usually?happen when I get sense that I have reached the end of rail.? Then....? My kinesthetic memory would kick in.? As I understand that the height of each step is pretty much standardized.? ?Ranging between 4 to 7 inches.? ?Even through I can clearly see those visual markers as they sometimes?grab my attention but visual cue alone does nothing to inform about?the height of each step..? So usually, while being in contact with the rail,? either tip of my shoe would lightly feel up the first step (If going up).? Conversely,? My heel would descend slowly before landing top of second step (If going down0. n way my kinesthetic capability can take note of how deep it..? After that first step..? My body will know how much I need to raise or lower my legs for each steps front of me.? ? ??

?

So my sharing of the experience of walking down and up stairs is a demonstration of practice. using senses which often escape the discussion scope when talking about visual markers for steps.? ?And it seem that the vision being first identified as being a problem but tries to limit solution?in visual cue.? ? Without consideration for senses that are being available and already have been in use.? ?Make sense?? ? That's my general peeves when reading documents that offer guidance on standard and codes.?

Yes.. clearly as some have pointed out that this is intended for those with 'low vision'.? Not Blind.? ?So I will mention some merit for those visual marker.?

?

1.? It can inform someone that there is a stairway from a distance.? ? ?

2. It can inform sighted who have full range vision when one reaches last step.? ?Sighted as someone who have full vision range.. as in being able to pick these cues from periphery field without having to tilt one's head downward too much.??

?

That's it..? ?It does not help much with the process of walking along the stairway..? Nor can it offer important cues as to how tall each step are..? ?It is not possible.??

?

As?O&M trainer..? I would cringe at the existence of visual markers on each step because they have?misled and continue to mislead numbers of Blind and low vision people, especially those with low vision that these are there to prevent them from falling or tripping as long as they use their residual vision to catch each of them from start to end.? ? I would like this person to understand that there are more reliable and safe ways of going up and down stair - such as retaining architectural cues such as maintaining contact with rail and train to how to do kinesthetic scan (To pick up the information about steps) and kinesthetic?memory. (muscle memory) to go along each step?with ease.? ?

?

With it being said..? ? Now we are leave to consider the usefulness of having steps marked for each steps?

I think that from a cognitive-processing?perspective -? ? This is a question?about our general expectation for architecture as? being third person..? ? Third person as something that could be retained as cues that offer support or sustain..? ? ?

Imagine the question about which - first. and last marker or each?steps?could be translated as message that achtitectural as third person would communicate to you as you inhabit or move through space.??

?

"Start, Re-calibrate?then carry on until next as being the last one then again re-calibrate".?

OR

?"HERE, here, here, Hopping between each one until there is no more as the pattern?ends".?

?

I think we know which offers the sublimity that one needs to fully utilize one's body.? ?As former seem to be focussing on the process as being transitional in essence.? Which is consistent with the essence of stairway - a transition.? Message should be about transition.? ? While latter one is making it being about the steps itself., drawing one's attention to it without really offeringw anything essential for one to get through the process.?

?

Now.? One things i would like to discuss about in order to expand that line of thinking is -? ?landing area..? and space that lead to stairway..? I think it is the area that is worth conversation.? ?These landing areas would inform one that one is approaching the stairway.? ? ?And how these features offer more sublime transition and consistency.? ?How the texture of flooring facilitates one to move the body in way it naturally makes contact with features that run in parallel with stairways such as rails.? Does they feel nice?? ?Often not..? It is often steel and hold..? ?And there is hygienic concern about grasing rail completely..? (That's why I said contact, not grasp completely earlier).? Could rail itself be re-conceptualized?? ??

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 10:40?PM Kelly Phillips <saipantvi@...> wrote:

Meg,?

This is very helpful. It would be good if this could be universally recommended on O&M reports.?

?

Best,

Kelly

?

On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 4:39?PM Meg Robertson via <mobilitymeg=[email protected]> wrote:

There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the Public Right-of-Way

The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.^]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities)

?

Paint works better than tape.? Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair.? I don’t think that there is any.? Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception?

On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley <Ebuckley@...> wrote:

Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley

?

?

?

?

?

--

Robert T. Sirvage

--

Robert T. Sirvage

On Dec 2, 2023, at 11:15 PM, Robert T. Sirvage <robert.sirvage@...> wrote:

?

Robert -?

Thanks for sharing this chi tai walk..? It is cool to see a for a type of navigational procession.? Will definitely dig on that.?

Dona, I am glad that you are throwing caution to your students that not all rail start or end with first/last steps.? That is true as I can personally vouch that I have came across to some of that.??

Now it brings me to ask some very interesting questions about O & M as field.??

Now, my background involved working with architects and designers.? And my study often delves back to studying the way people navigate and occupy space.? ?

Now..? ?For me..? I see these?rails that do not extend alongside with the length of stairs fully is an example of bad design.? ? ?As bad as having a door knob placed 6 feet high on the door.? ?To me, good design means all architectural features are being synthesized?in way it work with our bodies and even becomes reliable enough to act as third person.? Having a built environment?allows our body to become part of the place.??

Now..? As I am glad that as orientation & mobility instructor, I am glad that you are cautioning about reliability? of some architectural features out there.??

However, as I understand that field of O&M focuses on practice.? ? How to use our body,? for most cases, re-learning our body in a way that allows us to meet the needs for safety, independence, and to have the ability to create new meanings within our daily lives.? ? ?Those questions about practices,? and it seem that it often naturally led people from the field to think and talk alot about f consideration about various designs.? ?And even take up the role as an advocate within discussion on what good design means or made substantial?contribution to development of standard and codes.?

So here is what could appear to be a hen-egg question..??

Should we advocate design be something that enable or even promote bad practices, such as one with low vision sprinting up and down with their poor vision affix downward to watch pattern of bright color stripes without utilizing senses that they already have such as tactile or being allowed to be conscious of one's own kinesethicity???

Or as OM, we should focus on best practice.. The one that allows blinds to maintain personal safety, and independence in a way that they can create meanings in their life?? And let these to inform us about what good design mean and advocate for that design?? ?So that in turn, design would promote and advocate best practice???

Please see this as a theoretical question coming from one of oldest questions that architects and designers asks - which come first?? Function or forms..? Should function be shaped by form.. Or Form shaping functions.? ?In this case..? ?Which -? best practice shapes the idea on what?does good design mean or design taking on all kinds of practices, even bad one?? ? I already know that doing jumpjack in the middle of the stairway is not a good idea..? Smiles.??

In the meantime,? yes, it should be noted to students that not all designs out there are good or even sensible that need?correcting.? And yes, there is a fine line between understanding what ideal is? and the need to work with reality?just?as it is at the time.??

?

?

On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 7:12?PM Dona Sauerburger <dona@...> wrote:

HI there Robert!? I love your insights about using your foot to find the end of the stairway.? That can indeed be very effective!? I had to smile as it reminded me of walking in total darkness in China along one of the narrow ledges that are on each side of a muddy, yucky road.? I used the "tai chi walk" I had just learned the day? before, keeping my weight on my back leg until I could be sure I hadn't reached the end of the ledge (described at ).

?

Meanwhile, I stress to my students that the railing is great for providing support, but they should never use it to determine where the end of the stairway is.? There are too many instances where the railing ends one or more steps before the end.? I have pictures of some of the examples I've seen at? - one is inside one of our congressional buildings in Washington, DC and one is at Gallaudet University, and my friend let me take a picture of her descending a stairway at a restaurant where we were having dinner with my son Stephan.

?

So it's important that we teach our students NOT to use the railing for anything but support.

?

-- Dona Sauerburger

?

On 12/02/2023 7:13 PM EST Robert T. Sirvage <robert.sirvage@...> wrote:

?

?

Hello all,,??

?

This is my first submission to this forum after having been following different threads quietly.??

One thing that interests?me is the process of developing standards and codification.? ?And this thread caught my attention as it started with question about there should be visual marking on each steps or just the first and last one?? ?And I appreciate the way discussions have turned out here..??

?
I have gotten involved in a few projects that would contribute to formulation?of standard sand codes.? ? And I do operate from a theoretical?framework which insist real-world experience as a starting point.? ? Before I throw some weights on either approach, I want to make a comment on the scope of this discussion.??

?

Like the way codes and standards documents are being structured,? I think we need to step back to consider the scope of this discussion which seems to be limited to vision alone.?

?

Some personal disclosure here..? I am one with a kind of vision condition, at the moment retaining some residual vision.. Am able to discern colours, distance, and understand depth with vision alone.??

?

When all of you are discussing.? ?I find myself reflecting on my experience of walking down stairs and up.? ?

?

1. When I have?arrived?at the end of the stairway (or landing as they call it).? I would touch the rail..? Not necessarily grasping it..? Just touching to retain something that would inform me that there would be more steps ahead (Either way).? ??

?

2. While I am in touch with rail as a reliable cue that would inform me that there is more step ahead and that I am approaching to the?last step as it usually?happen when I get sense that I have reached the end of rail.? Then....? My kinesthetic memory would kick in.? As I understand that the height of each step is pretty much standardized.? ?Ranging between 4 to 7 inches.? ?Even through I can clearly see those visual markers as they sometimes?grab my attention but visual cue alone does nothing to inform about?the height of each step..? So usually, while being in contact with the rail,? either tip of my shoe would lightly feel up the first step (If going up).? Conversely,? My heel would descend slowly before landing top of second step (If going down0. n way my kinesthetic capability can take note of how deep it..? After that first step..? My body will know how much I need to raise or lower my legs for each steps front of me.? ? ??

?

So my sharing of the experience of walking down and up stairs is a demonstration of practice. using senses which often escape the discussion scope when talking about visual markers for steps.? ?And it seem that the vision being first identified as being a problem but tries to limit solution?in visual cue.? ? Without consideration for senses that are being available and already have been in use.? ?Make sense?? ? That's my general peeves when reading documents that offer guidance on standard and codes.?

Yes.. clearly as some have pointed out that this is intended for those with 'low vision'.? Not Blind.? ?So I will mention some merit for those visual marker.?

?

1.? It can inform someone that there is a stairway from a distance.? ? ?

2. It can inform sighted who have full range vision when one reaches last step.? ?Sighted as someone who have full vision range.. as in being able to pick these cues from periphery field without having to tilt one's head downward too much.??

?

That's it..? ?It does not help much with the process of walking along the stairway..? Nor can it offer important cues as to how tall each step are..? ?It is not possible.??

?

As?O&M trainer..? I would cringe at the existence of visual markers on each step because they have?misled and continue to mislead numbers of Blind and low vision people, especially those with low vision that these are there to prevent them from falling or tripping as long as they use their residual vision to catch each of them from start to end.? ? I would like this person to understand that there are more reliable and safe ways of going up and down stair - such as retaining architectural cues such as maintaining contact with rail and train to how to do kinesthetic scan (To pick up the information about steps) and kinesthetic?memory. (muscle memory) to go along each step?with ease.? ?

?

With it being said..? ? Now we are leave to consider the usefulness of having steps marked for each steps?

I think that from a cognitive-processing?perspective -? ? This is a question?about our general expectation for architecture as? being third person..? ? Third person as something that could be retained as cues that offer support or sustain..? ? ?

Imagine the question about which - first. and last marker or each?steps?could be translated as message that achtitectural as third person would communicate to you as you inhabit or move through space.??

?

"Start, Re-calibrate?then carry on until next as being the last one then again re-calibrate".?

OR

?"HERE, here, here, Hopping between each one until there is no more as the pattern?ends".?

?

I think we know which offers the sublimity that one needs to fully utilize one's body.? ?As former seem to be focussing on the process as being transitional in essence.? Which is consistent with the essence of stairway - a transition.? Message should be about transition.? ? While latter one is making it being about the steps itself., drawing one's attention to it without really offeringw anything essential for one to get through the process.?

?

Now.? One things i would like to discuss about in order to expand that line of thinking is -? ?landing area..? and space that lead to stairway..? I think it is the area that is worth conversation.? ?These landing areas would inform one that one is approaching the stairway.? ? ?And how these features offer more sublime transition and consistency.? ?How the texture of flooring facilitates one to move the body in way it naturally makes contact with features that run in parallel with stairways such as rails.? Does they feel nice?? ?Often not..? It is often steel and hold..? ?And there is hygienic concern about grasing rail completely..? (That's why I said contact, not grasp completely earlier).? Could rail itself be re-conceptualized?? ??

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 10:40?PM Kelly Phillips <saipantvi@...> wrote:

Meg,?

This is very helpful. It would be good if this could be universally recommended on O&M reports.?

?

Best,

Kelly

?

On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 4:39?PM Meg Robertson via <mobilitymeg=[email protected]> wrote:

There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the Public Right-of-Way

The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.^]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities)

?

Paint works better than tape.? Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair.? I don’t think that there is any.? Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception?

On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley <Ebuckley@...> wrote:

Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley

?

?

?

?

?

--

Robert T. Sirvage

--

Robert T. Sirvage

?

?

--

On 12/02/2023 7:13 PM EST Robert T. Sirvage <robert.sirvage@...> wrote:

?

?

Hello all,,??

?

This is my first submission to this forum after having been following different threads quietly.??

One thing that interests?me is the process of developing standards and codification.? ?And this thread caught my attention as it started with question about there should be visual marking on each steps or just the first and last one?? ?And I appreciate the way discussions have turned out here..??

?
I have gotten involved in a few projects that would contribute to formulation?of standard sand codes.? ? And I do operate from a theoretical?framework which insist real-world experience as a starting point.? ? Before I throw some weights on either approach, I want to make a comment on the scope of this discussion.??

?

Like the way codes and standards documents are being structured,? I think we need to step back to consider the scope of this discussion which seems to be limited to vision alone.?

?

Some personal disclosure here..? I am one with a kind of vision condition, at the moment retaining some residual vision.. Am able to discern colours, distance, and understand depth with vision alone.??

?

When all of you are discussing.? ?I find myself reflecting on my experience of walking down stairs and up.? ?

?

1. When I have?arrived?at the end of the stairway (or landing as they call it).? I would touch the rail..? Not necessarily grasping it..? Just touching to retain something that would inform me that there would be more steps ahead (Either way).? ??

?

2. While I am in touch with rail as a reliable cue that would inform me that there is more step ahead and that I am approaching to the?last step as it usually?happen when I get sense that I have reached the end of rail.? Then....? My kinesthetic memory would kick in.? As I understand that the height of each step is pretty much standardized.? ?Ranging between 4 to 7 inches.? ?Even through I can clearly see those visual markers as they sometimes?grab my attention but visual cue alone does nothing to inform about?the height of each step..? So usually, while being in contact with the rail,? either tip of my shoe would lightly feel up the first step (If going up).? Conversely,? My heel would descend slowly before landing top of second step (If going down0. n way my kinesthetic capability can take note of how deep it..? After that first step..? My body will know how much I need to raise or lower my legs for each steps front of me.? ? ??

?

So my sharing of the experience of walking down and up stairs is a demonstration of practice. using senses which often escape the discussion scope when talking about visual markers for steps.? ?And it seem that the vision being first identified as being a problem but tries to limit solution?in visual cue.? ? Without consideration for senses that are being available and already have been in use.? ?Make sense?? ? That's my general peeves when reading documents that offer guidance on standard and codes.?

Yes.. clearly as some have pointed out that this is intended for those with 'low vision'.? Not Blind.? ?So I will mention some merit for those visual marker.?

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1.? It can inform someone that there is a stairway from a distance.? ? ?

2. It can inform sighted who have full range vision when one reaches last step.? ?Sighted as someone who have full vision range.. as in being able to pick these cues from periphery field without having to tilt one's head downward too much.??

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That's it..? ?It does not help much with the process of walking along the stairway..? Nor can it offer important cues as to how tall each step are..? ?It is not possible.??

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As?O&M trainer..? I would cringe at the existence of visual markers on each step because they have?misled and continue to mislead numbers of Blind and low vision people, especially those with low vision that these are there to prevent them from falling or tripping as long as they use their residual vision to catch each of them from start to end.? ? I would like this person to understand that there are more reliable and safe ways of going up and down stair - such as retaining architectural cues such as maintaining contact with rail and train to how to do kinesthetic scan (To pick up the information about steps) and kinesthetic?memory. (muscle memory) to go along each step?with ease.? ?

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With it being said..? ? Now we are leave to consider the usefulness of having steps marked for each steps?

I think that from a cognitive-processing?perspective -? ? This is a question?about our general expectation for architecture as? being third person..? ? Third person as something that could be retained as cues that offer support or sustain..? ? ?

Imagine the question about which - first. and last marker or each?steps?could be translated as message that achtitectural as third person would communicate to you as you inhabit or move through space.??

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"Start, Re-calibrate?then carry on until next as being the last one then again re-calibrate".?

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?"HERE, here, here, Hopping between each one until there is no more as the pattern?ends".?

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I think we know which offers the sublimity that one needs to fully utilize one's body.? ?As former seem to be focussing on the process as being transitional in essence.? Which is consistent with the essence of stairway - a transition.? Message should be about transition.? ? While latter one is making it being about the steps itself., drawing one's attention to it without really offeringw anything essential for one to get through the process.?

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Now.? One things i would like to discuss about in order to expand that line of thinking is -? ?landing area..? and space that lead to stairway..? I think it is the area that is worth conversation.? ?These landing areas would inform one that one is approaching the stairway.? ? ?And how these features offer more sublime transition and consistency.? ?How the texture of flooring facilitates one to move the body in way it naturally makes contact with features that run in parallel with stairways such as rails.? Does they feel nice?? ?Often not..? It is often steel and hold..? ?And there is hygienic concern about grasing rail completely..? (That's why I said contact, not grasp completely earlier).? Could rail itself be re-conceptualized?? ??

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On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 10:40?PM Kelly Phillips <saipantvi@...> wrote:

Meg,?

This is very helpful. It would be good if this could be universally recommended on O&M reports.?

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Best,

Kelly

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On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 4:39?PM Meg Robertson via <mobilitymeg=[email protected]> wrote:

There?is a new rule from the US Access Board which will require contrasted tread edges on stairs Final Rule: Accessibility Guidelines for Pedestrian Facilities in the Public Right-of-Way

The leading edge of each step tread and top landing must be marked by a 1-inch (25 mm) wide stripe (R408.6). The stripe must contrast visually with the rest of the step tread or circulation path surface, either light-on-dark or dark-on-light. In adopting a requirement for contrast striping, the Board notes that a 1- to 2-inch stripe of contrasting color (either dark-on-light or light-on dark) is required by American National Standard (ANSI) through adoption of international building codes (IBC) to help users distinguish each step.^]?(“Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities,” American National Standard (2009): 41, access from ANSI A117.1 (2009): Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities)

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Paint works better than tape.? Not sure what the Reseach shows about placing the contrast on the first and last stair.? I don’t think that there is any.? Having contrast on each stairs helps with depth perception?

On Nov 30, 2023, at 8:00?AM, Erin Buckley <Ebuckley@...> wrote:

Hello,?
I am a COMS on Boston's north shore. I am curious about what you usually recommend for stair markings in public schools. I have heard of 2 schools of thought: marking the edge of ALL stairs with high-contrast paint or tape, and marking only the first and last stair.?
What are your thoughts and reasons behind them? Do you have any positive and/or negative experiences with either??
Thanks in advance!
Erin Buckley

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Robert T. Sirvage