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Starting out with EM172

[email protected]
 

Hi there


I'm pleased to be a part of this group. ?I have built my first microphones following Tom Benedict's excellent instructions??and they work very well for nature/ambient recording


I want to build something with the EM172s that works with 20-30m cable runs - I understand Simple P48 isn't suitable for this. ?My mind is a bit blown with all the variants of Alice/Schoeps in the files section - what's the best one to try?


Is it also possible to mount the capsules in metal bodies without the copper tape shielding and multiple layers of heatshrink? ?How does this work eg in the Clippy or capsules mounted in Rean phono bodies?


thanks


Leon
 

Welcome to the EM172 enthusiast group.

I have some experience with EM172. Worse with the theory ;-).
My suggestions:

1. SimpleP48 - very simple and very good indeed - should work with cables up to 10 or even 20 meters; you should tune R resitance, R value depends on performance of your phantom voltage source, read carefuly Tom Benedict page; apparently the best results are for R matched so that the voltage on the capsule is 7.5-9V; I am focused at 8V.

2. Basic Alice/Schoeps scheme - more complicated, but not very much, and very good - see my file:

myZenerLessAlice_v00.png

located here:?

Files > EM172, EM173 capsule and XLR??

I keep 8V on capsules with the help of R3 potentiometer.
?
Values of R5 and R6: at my scheme both are 5k1, at my final solution I use 10 k - output signal is a bit higher, I do not know what about distortions and other subtleties but the results satisfy me, listen to my recording samples.
Later, thanks to the suggestion of one of the forum members, I modified the scheme - I used 'Sziklai pairs' instead of transistors Q1, Q2 - but for my needs this solution is probably redundant.

Regarding metal bodies and capsule - there is voltage on the EM172 capsule housing, so capsule must be isolated from the outer metal body protecting the microphone, which protects mechanically and against radio and other interferences.

For EM172 isolation I used double-sided adhesive tape, not very comfortable.
For EM173 isolation I used rubber rings instead of a heat-shrinkable sleeve. (EM173 does not have to be isolated from the outer metal body.)
?
Isolation - my solution:

Album 'EM173 in the flashlight casing'.

?I realize that the solution I'm using is not perfect, but it's simple and most importantly very well fulfills my requirements in recording voices of nature with EM172 and EM173.

Good luck!

Andrzej



On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 00:36, lostlonelylondon@... [micbuilders] <micbuilders@...> wrote:
?

Hi there


I'm pleased to be a part of this group.? I have built my first microphones following Tom Benedict's excellent instructions??and they work very well for nature/ambient recording


I want to build something with the EM172s that works with 20-30m cable runs - I understand Simple P48 isn't suitable for this.? My mind is a bit blown with all the variants of Alice/Schoeps in the files section - what's the best one to try?


Is it also possible to mount the capsules in metal bodies without the copper tape shielding and multiple layers of heatshrink?? How does this work eg in the Clippy or capsules mounted in Rean phono bodies?


thanks


Leon
 

>>>SimpleP48RCA?<<<<? and EM172:
converting EM172 .....from 2-wire to 3-wire ?- question:?

do you mean to cut?paths connecting point 1 (GND of EM172) with an original capsule aluminum case and connect the point HOT (Drain) to capsule case?
If yes, I'm not for this solution. Only to get an additional 10 meters and slightly larger SPL at the expense of reducing sensitivity in comparison with? SimpleP48basic ?


On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 11:35, Richard Lee ricardo@... [micbuilders] <micbuilders@...> wrote:
?

> I have built my first microphones following Tom Benedict's excellent
instructions

e-and-xlr-plug/

There are a couple of mistakes & misunderstandings in his otherwise
excellent blog. I hope I've clarified most of them in my latest version of
SimpleP48.pdf in Files/Ricardo/SimpleP48

> I want to build something with the EM172s that works with 20-30m cable
runs

SimpleP48basic with EM172 is good for 20m cable.

SimpleP48RCA should do 30m.

> My mind is a bit blown with all the variants of Alice/Schoeps in the
files section - what's the best one to try?

My vote goes to Zapnsparks detailed & complete Schoeps versions in our
Files.

> Is it also possible to mount the capsules in metal bodies without the
copper tape shielding and multiple layers of heatshrink?

Your metal bodies must take the place of the Cu tape and be connected to
the shield of the cable. The bodies must be insulated from the capsules ..
which is the purpose of the 1st layer of heatshrink.

Have a look at Casey Connor's pics in SimpleP48.pdf and try to understand
what he is trying to do. The final piece of heatshrink is just to tidy
things up.
 

I have built my first microphones following Tom Benedict's excellent
instructions

e-and-xlr-plug/

There are a couple of mistakes & misunderstandings in his otherwise
excellent blog. I hope I've clarified most of them in my latest version of
SimpleP48.pdf in Files/Ricardo/SimpleP48

I want to build something with the EM172s that works with 20-30m cable
runs

SimpleP48basic with EM172 is good for 20m cable.

SimpleP48RCA should do 30m.

My mind is a bit blown with all the variants of Alice/Schoeps in the
files section - what's the best one to try?

My vote goes to Zapnsparks detailed & complete Schoeps versions in our
Files.

Is it also possible to mount the capsules in metal bodies without the
copper tape shielding and multiple layers of heatshrink?

Your metal bodies must take the place of the Cu tape and be connected to
the shield of the cable. The bodies must be insulated from the capsules ..
which is the purpose of the 1st layer of heatshrink.

Have a look at Casey Connor's pics in SimpleP48.pdf and try to understand
what he is trying to do. The final piece of heatshrink is just to tidy
things up.
 

> converting EM172 .....from 2-wire to 3-wire?- question:?

> do you mean to cut?paths connecting point 1 (GND of EM172) with an original capsule aluminum case and connect the point HOT (Drain) to capsule case?

Yes. ?If anyone has done this and has pics of EM172 (also PUI 5024) showing the best place to cut, please post.

> If yes, I'm not for this solution. Only to get an additional 10 meters and slightly larger SPL at the expense of reducing sensitivity in comparison with? SimpleP48basic?

Actually the acceptable line length goes up to 56m so an additional 36m improvement. :)

But if you don't have a SoundDevices and are just doing Nature Recording, SimpleP48basic is probably best.?

That's assuming the Primo FET is 2sk660
 

Woah, I hadn't expected such detailed and considered responses - thanks so much, both, for taking the time to write. ?

Richard, your document has been a revelation.? I'm moving from simply having followed instructions to properly understanding what's going on, and why. ?

And Andrzej: ?hearing the recordings you've made is exciting and inspiring.? Thank you for sharing!

It's good to see my post has triggered some further debate and exploration of shared knowledge, too. ? I've ordered some more heatshrink and will try out some of the mic body ideas over the next few days.

regards

leon


On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 10:36, Richard Lee ricardo@... [micbuilders] <micbuilders@...> wrote:
?

> I have built my first microphones following Tom Benedict's excellent
instructions

e-and-xlr-plug/

There are a couple of mistakes & misunderstandings in his otherwise
excellent blog. I hope I've clarified most of them in my latest version of
SimpleP48.pdf in Files/Ricardo/SimpleP48

> I want to build something with the EM172s that works with 20-30m cable
runs

SimpleP48basic with EM172 is good for 20m cable.

SimpleP48RCA should do 30m.

> My mind is a bit blown with all the variants of Alice/Schoeps in the
files section - what's the best one to try?

My vote goes to Zapnsparks detailed & complete Schoeps versions in our
Files.

> Is it also possible to mount the capsules in metal bodies without the
copper tape shielding and multiple layers of heatshrink?

Your metal bodies must take the place of the Cu tape and be connected to
the shield of the cable. The bodies must be insulated from the capsules ..
which is the purpose of the 1st layer of heatshrink.

Have a look at Casey Connor's pics in SimpleP48.pdf and try to understand
what he is trying to do. The final piece of heatshrink is just to tidy
things up.
 

Gareth / leon,

I'm glad that you like my recordings, thank you very much.
Next step for you: consider this:
My very first recordings I made a year ago. The stereo effects were not particularly clear when listening through headphones.. So I began to search how to position my pair of EM172. This way I found 'Jecklin Disk' as the best solution for omnidirectional mics. I know Tom Benedict is using another very interesting solution: SASS.

Andrzej

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 00:40, Gareth Jenkinson gareth.jenkinson@... [micbuilders] <micbuilders@...> wrote:
?

Woah, I hadn't expected such detailed and considered responses - thanks so much, both, for taking the time to write. ?

Richard, your document has been a revelation.? I'm moving from simply having followed instructions to properly understanding what's going on, and why. ?

And Andrzej: ?hearing the recordings you've made is exciting and inspiring.? Thank you for sharing!

It's good to see my post has triggered some further debate and exploration of shared knowledge, too. ? I've ordered some more heatshrink and will try out some of the mic body ideas over the next few days.

regards

leon

On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 10:36, Richard Lee ricardo@... [micbuilders] <micbuilders@...> wrote:
?

> I have built my first microphones following Tom Benedict's excellent
instructions

e-and-xlr-plug/

There are a couple of mistakes & misunderstandings in his otherwise
excellent blog. I hope I've clarified most of them in my latest version of
SimpleP48.pdf in Files/Ricardo/SimpleP48

> I want to build something with the EM172s that works with 20-30m cable
runs

SimpleP48basic with EM172 is good for 20m cable.

SimpleP48RCA should do 30m.

> My mind is a bit blown with all the variants of Alice/Schoeps in the
files section - what's the best one to try?

My vote goes to Zapnsparks detailed & complete Schoeps versions in our
Files.

> Is it also possible to mount the capsules in metal bodies without the
copper tape shielding and multiple layers of heatshrink?

Your metal bodies must take the place of the Cu tape and be connected to
the shield of the cable. The bodies must be insulated from the capsules ..
which is the purpose of the 1st layer of heatshrink.

Have a look at Casey Connor's pics in SimpleP48.pdf and try to understand
what he is trying to do. The final piece of heatshrink is just to tidy
things up.
[email protected]
 

I thought I'd give an update here as I've made good progress. ?Thanks to the advice in the thread I've been comfortably using long cable runs, entirely satisfactorily, with the Simple P48 circuit. ?

Faced with so much information available it was hard to concentrate on the idea that what I had already sounded amazing. ?I wanted to improve on the casing for the microphones so I rebuilt the heatshrink version onto a Rean phono/cinch shell (with the capsule back resting against the front edge of the shell and fixed in place with a layer of heatshrink) which feel a lot sturdier so I'm more confident with trying different mounting techniques.

Sadly I damaged one of the capsules when I converted it from the heatshrink only version. ?I was relieved to see on one of the EM172 construction blogs that someone well know to this list had also managed to fry one! I've now made a metal block with holes drilled in at the correct diameter (idea lifted from PUI 5042 data sheet) to act as a heatsink when soldering.

I've added a folder with a photo of the two different versions I've made so far if anyone's interested. ?

Next stop - making a Jecklin disk. ?Have bought some suitable foam: ?I've got the bug... ?Thanks for the support/encouragement.
 

About Jecklin disk...
First of all everything must be lightweight, add to that the weight of the tripod and photographic ball joint with quick coupling. All must be readily manipulated in a field.
My Jecklin disk is a complete improvisation, I used?thick cardboard, thin foams, polyester material (rug, bedspread). Double-sided self-adhesive tape as a glue, thermal adhesive.?I know that such a cardboard construction will not survive the heavy rain, but also microphones also need to be protected from water.
Look at my photos >>><<<??
?
Good luck!
Andrzej


On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 at 00:25, lostlonelylondon@... [micbuilders] <micbuilders@...> wrote:
?

I thought I'd give an update here as I've made good progress.? Thanks to the advice in the thread I've been comfortably using long cable runs, entirely satisfactorily, with the Simple P48 circuit. ?


Faced with so much information available it was hard to concentrate on the idea that what I had already sounded amazing.? I wanted to improve on the casing for the microphones so I rebuilt the heatshrink version onto a Rean phono/cinch shell (with the capsule back resting against the front edge of the shell and fixed in place with a layer of heatshrink) which feel a lot sturdier so I'm more confident with trying different mounting techniques.

Sadly I damaged one of the capsules when I converted it from the heatshrink only version.? I was relieved to see on one of the EM172 construction blogs that someone well know to this list had also managed to fry one! I've now made a metal block with holes drilled in at the correct diameter (idea lifted from PUI 5042 data sheet) to act as a heatsink when soldering.

I've added a folder with a photo of the two different versions I've made so far if anyone's interested. ?

Next stop - making a Jecklin disk.? Have bought some suitable foam: ?I've got the bug...? Thanks for the support/encouragement.
 

hi all -- sorry to bump a very old thread.? i am trying to do the build mentioned in the OP, but the capacitor listed is no longer manufactured.? does anyone know if any old `4.7uF 25v aluminum electrolytic capacitor` will work or is there something special about the Nichicon ones? it does say they are "Audio Grade" on the mouser link.

here's one that appears to match closely: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasonic/ECE-A1EKS4R7?qs=VKiIzvRVanmp9AcH9KuhBw%3D%3D
 

You don't need to be super picky on that or most of the other parts.? Go ahead and build your first mic before you worry too much - I'm pretty confident you'll be very happy with the results.

-Scott

On 6/16/24 14:50, biggearsale@... wrote:
hi all -- sorry to bump a very old thread.? i am trying to do the build mentioned in the OP, but the capacitor listed is no longer manufactured.? does anyone know if any old `4.7uF 25v aluminum electrolytic capacitor` will work or is there something special about the Nichicon ones? it does say they are "Audio Grade" on the mouser link.

here's one that appears to match closely:
--
---- Scott Helmke ---- scott@... ---- (734) 604-9340 ----
"I have ceased distinguishing between the religious and the secular,
for everything is holy" - Joe Henry
 

thanks scott!

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