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This is a book review from the?Critic. ?On starting to read it, I was struck by the first two paragraphs, which are a nice example of an always timely reminder that what we’re often inclined to think of as an incontrovertible judgement about a public figure - indeed, about anyone - is very likely to be distorted by the narrow context in which we fashion it.
I’ve copied the entire article here because I couldn’t find the text on the website.
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The mobs have done the same in regard to Columbus.? Just read an excellent book based on the extensive writings by Columbus and others of his journeys to the new land.? He made several as did others.? Contrary to the claims of the mob Columbus did not abuse the natives but went to great lengths to try and prevent their abuse.? They were abused by others who Columbus had no choice but to leave behind when he returned.? Those others disobeyed Columbus's orders.? It is true some natives were treated very poorly and there were rapes.? Can't excuse it but it was the way things were done by many back then but Columbus was not part of it and tried to stop it.?
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Yes, it’s chilling how easily and wholeheartedly people give themselves to thinking with crowds.
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On Jan 17, 2021, at 02:00, jimntempe via groups.io <jimntempe@...> wrote:
?The mobs have done the same in regard to Columbus.? Just read an excellent book based on the extensive writings by Columbus and others of his journeys to the new land.? He made several as did others.? Contrary to the claims of the mob Columbus did not abuse the natives but went to great lengths to try and prevent their abuse.? They were abused by others who Columbus had no choice but to leave behind when he returned.? Those others disobeyed Columbus's orders.? It is true some natives were treated very poorly and there were rapes.? Can't excuse it but it was the way things were done by many back then but Columbus was not part of it and tried to stop it.?
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What book was that?? There’s a similar book that describes Columbus’s voyages, and how the islands had a wide breadth of cultures.? It’s hard to tell whether those were allegorical or exaggerated.? You’d think that they would all be about the same, though accounts about Cortez in Mexico describe Aztecs were a lot more brutal than the neighboring tribes. Ed
On Saturday, January 16, 2021, jimntempe via <jimntempe= [email protected]> wrote: The mobs have done the same in regard to Columbus.? Just read an excellent book based on the extensive writings by Columbus and others of his journeys to the new land.? He made several as did others.? Contrary to the claims of the mob Columbus did not abuse the natives but went to great lengths to try and prevent their abuse.? They were abused by others who Columbus had no choice but to leave behind when he returned.? Those others disobeyed Columbus's orders.? It is true some natives were treated very poorly and there were rapes.? Can't excuse it but it was the way things were done by many back then but Columbus was not part of it and tried to stop it.?
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?Nice try , but? not what happened. The native population was enslaved? by Columbus? in order to extract gold. The slaves were abused horribly with mutilations and executions common. So your attempts at minimizing Columbus's cruelty and culpability is simply false.? It was to the point that the Spanish revoked his governorship and recalled him to Spain for trial. Sorry , it is just reality.?
On Sunday, January 17, 2021, 01:00:38 AM CST, jimntempe via groups.io <jimntempe@...> wrote:
The mobs have done the same in regard to Columbus.? Just read an excellent book based on the extensive writings by Columbus and others of his journeys to the new land.? He made several as did others.? Contrary to the claims of the mob Columbus did not abuse the natives but went to great lengths to try and prevent their abuse.? They were abused by others who Columbus had no choice but to leave behind when he returned.? Those others disobeyed Columbus's orders.? It is true some natives were treated very poorly and there were rapes.? Can't excuse it but it was the way things were done by many back then but Columbus was not part of it and tried to stop it.?
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To Jim Twist. No, that is not what happened in terms of who did what.? Columbus did not enslave the natives.? What many fail to realize is that it wasn't just Columbus who went over there and it wasn't always Columbus who was in charge.? There were many trips and many people who went back and forth.? For the things Columbus was in charge of he had great respect for the Natives and when he left to return to Europe he left some of his people behind.? Those people often did not follow his orders and some of them appear to have been quite despicable.? I can't recap an entire book in a couple sentences.? As to the Trial, yes, due to the actions of the bad folks he got a bum rap but was never, if I'm recalling the story correctly, actually convicted of anything meaningful.? Again, I can't recap an entire book with all the nuance.? I can say that your claim is without nuance or context and it almost entirely false in all meaningful particulars.? No, I don't' think my saying that will make the slightest difference in what you think.? If you are actually interested in the full story I recommend "Columbus and the Quest for Jerusalem: How Religion Drove the Voyages that Led to America Paperback – July 17, 2012"? It relies on first hand historical documents, not retellings of retellings or mindreading.? After reading it I was shocked at how poorly what passes for the teaching of History on this subject captures the actual events of the time.? And I'm not speaking just in terms of accuracy but in the larger view of putting things in FULL context with complete background.? The usual history simply rolls up the actions and motives of everyone and ascribes it all to Columbus with the only significant "goal" being "finding the new world".? There were many people, many motives and many stories. “One of the 100 best books of the year.” —The Times Literary SupplementChristopher Columbus is reevaluated as a man of deep passion, patience, and religious conviction—on a mission to save Jerusalem from Islam.Five hundred years after he set sail, Columbus is still a controversial figure in history. Debates portray him either as the hero in the great drama of discovery or as an avaricious glory hunter and ruthless destroyer of indigenous cultures. In?Columbus and the Quest for Jerusalem, Carol Delaney offers a radically new interpretation of the man and his mission, claiming that the true motivation for his voyages is still widely unknown.Delaney argues that Columbus was inspired to find a western route to the Orient?not only?to obtain vast sums of gold for the Spanish Crown?but primarily?to fund a new crusade to take Jerusalem from the Muslims before the end of the world—a goal that sustained him until the day he died. Drawing from oft-ignored sources, some from Columbus’s own hand, Delaney depicts her subject as a thoughtful interpreter of the native cultures that he and his men encountered, and tells the tragic story of how his initial attempts to establish good relations with the natives turned badly sour. Showing Columbus in the context of his times rather than through the prism of present-day perspectives on colonial conquests reveals a man who was neither a greedy imperialist nor a quixotic adventurer, but a man driven by an abiding religious passion.?Columbus and the Quest for Jerusalem?is not an apologist’s take, but a clear-eyed, thought-provoking, and timely reappraisal of the man and his legacy.
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Fine , genocide and enslavement was a group effort. Columbus was a full participant and the poster boy, any revisionist nonsense to the contrary is just that nonsense. as I point out to my Italian American friends, and I have many just because of the part of Chicago from which I originate, there are far better people to honor, far better representatives? of Italian heritage.?
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-That can be said of almost all "great" historical figures.
Marvin Fine , genocide and enslavement was a group effort. Columbus was a full participant and the poster boy, any revisionist nonsense to the contrary is just that nonsense. as I point out to my Italian American friends, and I have many just because of the part of Chicago from which I originate, there are far better people to honor, far better representatives? of Italian heritage.?
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Jim Twist.? Your response was exactly as would be expected.
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Perhaps because it reflects reality??
On Tuesday, January 19, 2021, 01:16:45 PM CST, jimntempe via groups.io <jimntempe@...> wrote:
Jim Twist.? Your response was exactly as would be expected.
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Mr. J. Twist..
?You say Trump's "relationship with Russia is a major concern, in regards to his personal business interests and his policies that go all out to benefit Russia."? Please list those personal business interests that amount to anything more than chump change and which occurred while he was President.? And please tell us which of his many policies go "all out to benefit Russia".? Why don't you tell us how he's helping Russia get their Gas Pipeline built.
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Some of the highlights of what benefitted Russia : the trade war, harming the American ac business , benefitting the Russian ag business. 2 Turning his back on the Kurds making them run for their lives 3 withdrawing support for NATO? 4 Holding aid back from the Ukraine 5 backing out of the Iran deal 6 backing out of the Paris accord 7 straining our relations with China , Germany France and everyone else ............................. As to his personal dealings? his debts to Deutche Bank? , backed by Russian oligarchs? , Trump tower Moscow ....that enough ??
On Tuesday, January 19, 2021, 07:58:00 PM CST, jimntempe via groups.io <jimntempe@...> wrote:
Mr. J. Twist..
?You say Trump's "relationship with Russia is a major concern, in regards to his personal business interests and his policies that go all out to benefit Russia."? Please list those personal business interests that amount to anything more than chump change and which occurred while he was President.? And please tell us which of his many policies go "all out to benefit Russia".? Why don't you tell us how he's helping Russia get their Gas Pipeline built.
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Russia is not the USSR.? Trump imposed additional sanctions on Russia, compounding their economic problems.? The civil war in Syria was lost.? NATO now includes members of the former Soviet Bloc.? The Iran deal was a fiasco, and not in our interest, since Iran continued to cause trouble after it was signed, so Trump reimposed sanctions on them. Deutsche Bank is a large multinational bank headquartered in Frankfurt.? There are Trump Towers scattered around the world, but none are in Moscow or anywhere else in Russia. Ed?
On Tuesday, January 19, 2021, jim twist via <jimtwist2004= [email protected]> wrote:
Some of the highlights of what benefitted Russia : the trade war, harming the American ac business , benefitting the Russian ag business. 2 Turning his back on the Kurds making them run for their lives 3 withdrawing support for NATO? 4 Holding aid back from the Ukraine 5 backing out of the Iran deal 6 backing out of the Paris accord 7 straining our relations with China , Germany France and everyone else ............................. As to his personal dealings? his debts to Deutche Bank? , backed by Russian oligarchs? , Trump tower Moscow ....that enough ??
On Tuesday, January 19, 2021, 07:58:00 PM CST, jimntempe via <jimntempe= [email protected]> wrote:
Mr. J. Twist..
?You say Trump's "relationship with Russia is a major concern, in regards to his personal business interests and his policies that go all out to benefit Russia."? Please list those personal business interests that amount to anything more than chump change and which occurred while he was President.? And please tell us which of his many policies go "all out to benefit Russia".? Why don't you tell us how he's helping Russia get their Gas Pipeline built.
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I am fully aware that there is no longer a USSR , though I dont understand? why you bring that up or think that is relevant. I am fully aware that the plans for a Trump tower in Moscow were put on hold , due to the optics of such a plan. The Kurds were sold out the same minute that Trump tower Istanbul was? approved.? The former Soviet states such as the Ukraine having freed themselves of the USSR are? very much what nNATO is about and need to be a part of it .?
On Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 09:09:47 AM CST, Ed Lomas <relomas2@...> wrote:
Russia is not the USSR.? Trump imposed additional sanctions on Russia, compounding their economic problems.? The civil war in Syria was lost.? NATO now includes members of the former Soviet Bloc.? The Iran deal was a fiasco, and not in our interest, since Iran continued to cause trouble after it was signed, so Trump reimposed sanctions on them. Deutsche Bank is a large multinational bank headquartered in Frankfurt.? There are Trump Towers scattered around the world, but none are in Moscow or anywhere else in Russia. Ed?
On Tuesday, January 19, 2021, jim twist via <jimtwist2004= [email protected]> wrote:
Some of the highlights of what benefitted Russia : the trade war, harming the American ac business , benefitting the Russian ag business. 2 Turning his back on the Kurds making them run for their lives 3 withdrawing support for NATO? 4 Holding aid back from the Ukraine 5 backing out of the Iran deal 6 backing out of the Paris accord 7 straining our relations with China , Germany France and everyone else ............................. As to his personal dealings? his debts to Deutche Bank? , backed by Russian oligarchs? , Trump tower Moscow ....that enough ??
On Tuesday, January 19, 2021, 07:58:00 PM CST, jimntempe via <jimntempe= [email protected] > wrote:
Mr. J. Twist..
?You say Trump's "relationship with Russia is a major concern, in regards to his personal business interests and his policies that go all out to benefit Russia."? Please list those personal business interests that amount to anything more than chump change and which occurred while he was President.? And please tell us which of his many policies go "all out to benefit Russia".? Why don't you tell us how he's helping Russia get their Gas Pipeline built.
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" I am fully aware that there is no longer a USSR , though I dont understand? why you bring that up or think that is relevant. I am fully aware that the plans for a Trump tower in Moscow were put on hold , due to the optics of such a plan. The Kurds were sold out the same minute that Trump tower Istanbul was? approved.? The former Soviet states such as the Ukraine having freed themselves of the USSR are? very much what nNATO is about and need to be a part of it ."jim
The reason I reminded you that Russia is not the USSR is that the Democrats seem to think that it is.? Russia has only 1/2 the people that were in the USSR before it broke up, and its current population is 3/4 that of Nigeria, and is dropping and aging fast.? In a few years, Mexico will have more people than Russia.? It's economy is smaller than Canada's or Italy's.? Do we worry about Mexico or Canada?? No.? They are too small, compared to the USA.? Should western Europe and the former Soviet Satellites worry about Russia?? Maybe the Ukraine and some of the weaker ones, but Russia is not the global threat that it was during the Cold War.
As for plans for a Trump Tower in Moscow, consider that there are Trump Towers in many countries, so I doubt that one building is going to make much of a difference. ?
I don't see the 101st Airborne going into the Ukraine to defend its borders as a part of NATO.? Would you like to see the USA go to a Iranian style quagmire defending former Soviet states from Russian incursions?? Do you think that Germany would be any more effective in stopping Russia in the Ukraine than the UK was when Poland was invaded by the Germans?
Yet we treat Russia like the superpower that it never was, and think of the Chinese as the allies that they never were, as we close down factories in the USA and throw Americans out of jobs because they won't work as cheaply as Chinese, whether they're Chinese civilians, Chinese military, or Chinese prisoners; it all seems all right to the Democrats because they feel that a strong China is a stable China and that maybe someday they won't behave badly on the world stage.
On Wednesday, January 20, 2021, jim twist via <jimtwist2004= [email protected]> wrote:
I am fully aware that there is no longer a USSR , though I dont understand? why you bring that up or think that is relevant. I am fully aware that the plans for a Trump tower in Moscow were put on hold , due to the optics of such a plan. The Kurds were sold out the same minute that Trump tower Istanbul was? approved.? The former Soviet states such as the Ukraine having freed themselves of the USSR are? very much what nNATO is about and need to be a part of it .?
On Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 09:09:47 AM CST, Ed Lomas < relomas2@...> wrote:
Russia is not the USSR.? Trump imposed additional sanctions on Russia, compounding their economic problems.? The civil war in Syria was lost.? NATO now includes members of the former Soviet Bloc.? The Iran deal was a fiasco, and not in our interest, since Iran continued to cause trouble after it was signed, so Trump reimposed sanctions on them. Deutsche Bank is a large multinational bank headquartered in Frankfurt.? There are Trump Towers scattered around the world, but none are in Moscow or anywhere else in Russia. Ed? On Tuesday, January 19, 2021, jim twist via <jimtwist2004= yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Some of the highlights of what benefitted Russia : the trade war, harming the American ac business , benefitting the Russian ag business. 2 Turning his back on the Kurds making them run for their lives 3 withdrawing support for NATO? 4 Holding aid back from the Ukraine 5 backing out of the Iran deal 6 backing out of the Paris accord 7 straining our relations with China , Germany France and everyone else ............................. As to his personal dealings? his debts to Deutche Bank? , backed by Russian oligarchs? , Trump tower Moscow ....that enough ??
On Tuesday, January 19, 2021, 07:58:00 PM CST, jimntempe via <jimntempe= [email protected] > wrote:
Mr. J. Twist..
?You say Trump's "relationship with Russia is a major concern, in regards to his personal business interests and his policies that go all out to benefit Russia."? Please list those personal business interests that amount to anything more than chump change and which occurred while he was President.? And please tell us which of his many policies go "all out to benefit Russia".? Why don't you tell us how he's helping Russia get their Gas Pipeline built.
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From Mr. Twist...
Some of the highlights of what benefitted Russia : the trade war
-- If it did, which is hardly a proven fact, it was not the reason for doing it so that's a fail for you.
, harming the American ac business ,
-- even if true it is trivial, if that's the best you can come up with it's pathetic
benefitting the Russian ag business.
--? again, trivial, esp against the sanctions?Trump imposed and how his expansion of US energy productdion tanked the value of Russia's main money source, oil.? Another fail for you.
2 Turning his back on the Kurds making them run for their lives
- Overall the Kurds are doing?just fine thanks.? But even if not, his focus is US interests long term, not the Kurds short term interest.? Again, this is trivial?in the big picture of death and destruction and how many lives were not lost in the bigger picture. Another fail for you.
3 withdrawing support for NATO
- false, he didn't withdraw support for NATO, he made them get up off their asses, they are stronger for it.
? 4 Holding aid back from the Ukraine
- no one cares.
5 backing out of the Iran deal
- a plus.
6 backing out of the Paris accord
- another plus.? Nothing but the transfer of US money to the pockets of oligarchs in other countries.
7 straining our relations with China
- really comrade??
, Germany France and everyone else .............................
- a laughable concern.??
As to his personal dealings? his debts to Deutche Bank? , backed by Russian oligarchs? , Trump tower Moscow ....that enough ??
All trivial and meaningless crap.??
Is that?all you got?? That SOS from the?first days he was in office, the same nonsense.?
BTW, what's the address of Trump Tower Moscow.? When was it built?? When did it open?? It's as imaginary as the rest of your list.
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Also, why didn't Trump start a nuclear war, as Nancy Pelosi hinted at, or did the Joint Chiefs of Staff stop that after talking to Pelosi (which means that she saved humanity)? ? Who was he going to attack, if he loved Russia and North Korea as reported on the news? ??
Finally, why didn't Trump pardon himself, as the news predicted for months that he probably would?
Ed
On Wednesday, January 20, 2021, jimntempe via <jimntempe= [email protected]> wrote: From Mr. Twist...
Some of the highlights of what benefitted Russia : the trade war
-- If it did, which is hardly a proven fact, it was not the reason for doing it so that's a fail for you.
, harming the American ac business ,
-- even if true it is trivial, if that's the best you can come up with it's pathetic
benefitting the Russian ag business.
--? again, trivial, esp against the sanctions?Trump imposed and how his expansion of US energy productdion tanked the value of Russia's main money source, oil.? Another fail for you.
2 Turning his back on the Kurds making them run for their lives
- Overall the Kurds are doing?just fine thanks.? But even if not, his focus is US interests long term, not the Kurds short term interest.? Again, this is trivial?in the big picture of death and destruction and how many lives were not lost in the bigger picture. Another fail for you.
3 withdrawing support for NATO
- false, he didn't withdraw support for NATO, he made them get up off their asses, they are stronger for it.
? 4 Holding aid back from the Ukraine
- no one cares.
5 backing out of the Iran deal
- a plus.
6 backing out of the Paris accord
- another plus.? Nothing but the transfer of US money to the pockets of oligarchs in other countries.
7 straining our relations with China
- really comrade??
, Germany France and everyone else .............................
- a laughable concern.??
As to his personal dealings? his debts to Deutche Bank? , backed by Russian oligarchs? , Trump tower Moscow ....that enough ??
All trivial and meaningless crap.??
Is that?all you got?? That SOS from the?first days he was in office, the same nonsense.?
BTW, what's the address of Trump Tower Moscow.? When was it built?? When did it open?? It's as imaginary as the rest of your list.
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That wasnt a rebuttal , actually it was just heckling , which is not surprising it is what Trump supporters do. Of course there currently? no Trump tower in Moscow, the project was put on hold. I would rebut the rest if there was anything of substance? to rebut.?
On Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 05:04:01 PM CST, jimntempe via groups.io <jimntempe@...> wrote:
From Mr. Twist...
Some of the highlights of what benefitted Russia : the trade war
-- If it did, which is hardly a proven fact, it was not the reason for doing it so that's a fail for you.
, harming the American ac business ,
-- even if true it is trivial, if that's the best you can come up with it's pathetic
benefitting the Russian ag business.
--? again, trivial, esp against the sanctions?Trump imposed and how his expansion of US energy productdion tanked the value of Russia's main money source, oil.? Another fail for you.
2 Turning his back on the Kurds making them run for their lives
- Overall the Kurds are doing?just fine thanks.? But even if not, his focus is US interests long term, not the Kurds short term interest.? Again, this is trivial?in the big picture of death and destruction and how many lives were not lost in the bigger picture. Another fail for you.
3 withdrawing support for NATO
- false, he didn't withdraw support for NATO, he made them get up off their asses, they are stronger for it.
? 4 Holding aid back from the Ukraine
- no one cares.
5 backing out of the Iran deal
- a plus.
6 backing out of the Paris accord
- another plus.? Nothing but the transfer of US money to the pockets of oligarchs in other countries.
7 straining our relations with China
- really comrade??
, Germany France and everyone else .............................
- a laughable concern.??
As to his personal dealings? his debts to Deutche Bank? , backed by Russian oligarchs? , Trump tower Moscow ....that enough ??
All trivial and meaningless crap.??
Is that?all you got?? That SOS from the?first days he was in office, the same nonsense.?
BTW, what's the address of Trump Tower Moscow.? When was it built?? When did it open?? It's as imaginary as the rest of your list.
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<<Finally, why didn't Trump pardon himself, as the news predicted for months that he probably would?>>
I suspect he probably did. Little known fact, pardons do not have to be publicly announced or filed with the DOJ. Pardons can be issued privately (obviously if the person ever needed to use the pardon, then it would be publicly known.) Whether or not it is legal for a president to pardon himself is an open legal question, with no precedent…..but guilty or not, if I were Trump, I would have secretly given myself a pardon just in case, and I would be very surprised if he didn’t. I think it is also likely that he secretly pardoned his family members. ? Rhonda
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Ed Lomas Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2021 6:17 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [M-Powered] history - Edward Grey ? Also, why didn't Trump start a nuclear war, as Nancy Pelosi hinted at, or did the Joint Chiefs of Staff stop that after talking to Pelosi (which means that she saved humanity)? ? Who was he going to attack, if he loved Russia and North Korea as reported on the news? ?? Finally, why didn't Trump pardon himself, as the news predicted for months that he probably would? Ed
On Wednesday, January 20, 2021, jimntempe via <jimntempe=[email protected]> wrote: From Mr. Twist...
Some of the highlights of what benefitted Russia : the trade war
-- If it did, which is hardly a proven fact, it was not the reason for doing it so that's a fail for you.
, harming the American ac business ,
-- even if true it is trivial, if that's the best you can come up with it's pathetic
benefitting the Russian ag business.
--? again, trivial, esp against the sanctions?Trump imposed and how his expansion of US energy productdion tanked the value of Russia's main money source, oil.? Another fail for you.
2 Turning his back on the Kurds making them run for their lives
- Overall the Kurds are doing?just fine thanks.? But even if not, his focus is US interests long term, not the Kurds short term interest.? Again, this is trivial?in the big picture of death and destruction and how many lives were not lost in the bigger picture. Another fail for you.
3 withdrawing support for NATO
- false, he didn't withdraw support for NATO, he made them get up off their asses, they are stronger for it.
? 4 Holding aid back from the Ukraine
- no one cares.
5 backing out of the Iran deal
- a plus.
6 backing out of the Paris accord
- another plus.? Nothing but the transfer of US money to the pockets of oligarchs in other countries.
7 straining our relations with China
- really comrade??
, Germany France and everyone else .............................
- a laughable concern.??
As to his personal dealings? his debts to Deutche Bank? , backed by Russian oligarchs? , Trump tower Moscow ....that enough ??
All trivial and meaningless crap.??
Is that?all you got?? That SOS from the?first days he was in office, the same nonsense.?
BTW, what's the address of Trump Tower Moscow.? When was it built?? When did it open?? It's as imaginary as the rest of your list.
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