// ? ? ?5.? Were you surprised at the new Pope? I was hoping a candidate from one of the three unrepresented continents would be named - but was amazed than an American was chosen?? ? //
It may have been largely because Francis had made him a cardinal and had put him in charge of an office that had to deal with lots of other cardinals. ?Thus, since a lot of cardinals were new, having also been made cardinals by Francis, they may have gotten to know him better than they did many if not most if the other papal possibles. ?Since the papal electors were, like all good bureaucrats, eager to get back to their offices to keep the world running, they chose him in just two days. ?In his attitude toward things political, he looks like Francis. ?Anti-Trump, for example. ?Theologically, he's probably also pretty similar to Francis. ?Continuity in mediocrity. ?Same old.
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Show quoted text
On May 9, 2025, at 19:50, mrvnchpmn via groups.io <Chapman@...> wrote:
?
?
1.? Is race a genetic or cultural phenomena?
I see it as more of a cultural than genetic.? Melanesian Pacific Islanders and a lot of Subcontinental Indians are darker skinned than the average American Black but they are not considered Blacks.? I am of the opinion that culture drives behavior more than genetics.
2.? Will the war between Pakistan and India go nuclear?
Hasn't for the last forty years - hopefully they will continue the good work.
3.? Are you?optimistic about the remainder of tis year?
Fairly so - I am going to my 58th High School reunion this year - the sponsor told me she didn't think enough people would survive to 60 to have a reunion.
4.? Should Alcatraz be reopened as a federal supermax prison?
An interesting idea - certailnly escapes are extremely unlikely
5.? Were you surprised at the new Pope?
I was hoping a candidate from one of the three unrepresented continents would be named - but was amazed than an American was chosen
?
|
?
1.? Is race a genetic or cultural phenomena?
I see it as more of a cultural than genetic.? Melanesian Pacific Islanders and a lot of Subcontinental Indians are darker skinned than the average American Black but they are not considered Blacks.? I am of the opinion that culture drives behavior more than genetics.
2.? Will the war between Pakistan and India go nuclear?
Hasn't for the last forty years - hopefully they will continue the good work.
3.? Are you?optimistic about the remainder of tis year?
Fairly so - I am going to my 58th High School reunion this year - the sponsor told me she didn't think enough people would survive to 60 to have a reunion.
4.? Should Alcatraz be reopened as a federal supermax prison?
An interesting idea - certailnly escapes are extremely unlikely
5.? Were you surprised at the new Pope?
I was hoping a candidate from one of the three unrepresented continents would be named - but was amazed than an American was chosen
?
|
Re: [PhilosophicalM] Friday Five May 9
1.? Is race a genetic or cultural phenomena?
Everything we define or discuss is a mental phenomenon. A symbol, a story. The word race is a symbol that can, by definition, reflect either cultural, genetic or social characteristics. Since applying all of those depend upon the user's definitions and preferences, the symbol?"race" ius basically whatever the user says it is.
2.? Will the war between Pakistan and India go nuclear?
Possibly, especially?if it becomes existential for one of the contestants. After all, who wants to live subjected?to an Evil Enemy?
Of course, a related question might be: Will any of the current or likely conflicts around the globe possibly descend into nuclear confrontations or is the thought of nuclear war too unthinkable?
Don't be silly! People are insane.
3.? Are you?optimistic about the remainder of this year?
Sure. My workout is back on track, I am enjoying?online gaming and I have beer in the fridge.
4.? Should Alcatraz be reopened as a federal supermax prison?
I understand it is unusually expensive to operate, so I wonder if I might vote?for a new, less logistically?expensive location...?
5.? Were you surprised at the new Pope?
I actually?did not pay much attention, nor did I have any preconceptions?about him or the other contenders, so nope!
|
?
Thanks - I was hjaving rouble posting to extra recipients.
Marvin
?
?
?
1.? Is race a genetic or cultural phenomena?
2.? Will the war between Pakistan and India go nuclear?
3.? Are you?optimistic about the remainder of tis year?
4.? Should Alcatraz be reopened as a federal supermax prison?
5.? Were you surprised at the new Pope?
?
|
1.? Is
race a genetic or cultural phenomena?
Race is an artificial construct based on culture. There are no
subspecies of homo sapiens.
2.? Will
the war between Pakistan and India go nuclear?
Unlikely
3.? Are
you?optimistic about the remainder of tis year?
Not for the United States. A recession is looking more likely as the
current administration keeps making mistakes.
4.?
Should Alcatraz be reopened as a federal supermax
prison?
No. First of all, the U.S. does not need another federal supermax
prison. Also, Alcatraz is relatively small and would be too
expensive to repair and operate.
5.? Were
you surprised at the new Pope?
Not really. With the U.S. declining globally in power and influence
it's the right time for a Pope from the U.S.
Aloha,
Celeste Rogers
|
?
1.? Is
race a genetic or cultural phenomena?
2.? Will the war between Pakistan and India go nuclear?
3.? Are you?optimistic about the remainder of tis year?
4.? Should Alcatraz be reopened as a federal supermax
prison?
5.? Were you surprised at the new Pope?
|
Re: [PhilosophicalM] Friday Five May 9
?
On Fri, 09 May 2025 01:44:11 -0400, "mrvnchpmn via groups.io" <Chapman@...> wrote:
?
?
?
?
?
1.? Is race a genetic or cultural phenomena?
2.? Will the war between Pakistan and India go nuclear?
3.? Are you?optimistic about the remainder of tis year?
4.? Should Alcatraz be reopened as a federal supermax prison?
5.? Were you surprised at the new Poope?
|
?
I haven't heard of any in the last two weeks - but news coverage is very flaky.? The situation I was speaking of is with regard to previous actions - not future ones.? Though enforcement of laws and norms does a lot to make society work better.
Marvin
On Sat, 3 May 2025 16:04:19 -1000, "a1thighmaster" <thighmaster@...> wrote:
Marvin,
I remember the Kent State protests in 1970. I lived in Ohio, so I was a lot closer to them than you were. The May 4 Massacre was a tragedy that didn't need to happen. Gunfire just wasn't necessary. I can't imagine why schools in California were shut down when schools in Ohio weren't. In any case, I hope we never again see unarmed students being gunned down by military.
Your examples for current disruption show that there's currently no significant disruption.
?
On 5/3/2025 10:55 AM, mrvnchpmn via groups.io wrote:
?The people at Cal Poly Humboldt who couldn't go to class because of the protests - as well as the janitor who got locked in a building with them.
I lived through the Kent State riots in 1970 - every public school in CA was shut down Wednesday afternoon for the rest of the week.? I was in an elective math class where the professor looked up at the announcement and simply said he wasnt' going to leave and would continue the lecture but nothing for the rest of the hour would be on a test - anyone who wanted to leave could but anyone who wanted to stay was welcome.? The entire class stayed.
Celeste wrote:
2.? Do you support students on college campuses disrupting classes protesting for political causes?
Who says they're disrupting classes?
?
|
Marvin,
I remember the Kent State protests in 1970. I lived in Ohio, so I
was a lot closer to them than you were. The May 4 Massacre was a
tragedy that didn't need to happen. Gunfire just wasn't necessary. I
can't imagine why schools in California were shut down when schools
in Ohio weren't. In any case, I hope we never again see unarmed
students being gunned down by military.
Your examples for current disruption show that there's currently no
significant disruption.
On 5/3/2025 10:55 AM, mrvnchpmn via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?The
people at Cal Poly Humboldt who couldn't go to class because of
the protests - as well as the janitor who got locked in a
building with them.
I lived through the Kent State riots in 1970 - every public
school in CA was shut down Wednesday afternoon for the rest of
the week.? I was in an elective math class where the professor
looked up at the announcement and simply said he wasnt' going to
leave and would continue the lecture but nothing for the rest of
the hour would be on a test - anyone who wanted to leave could
but anyone who wanted to stay was welcome.? The entire class
stayed.
Celeste wrote:
2.? Do you
support students on college campuses disrupting classes
protesting for political causes?
Who says they're disrupting classes?
|
?
?
1.? Did the signing of an agreement between Ukraine and the US for mineral resources surprise you?
A little, but not a lot.
?
2.? Do you support students on college campuses disrupting classes protesting for political causes?
Who says they're disrupting classes?
The people at Cal Poly Humboldt who couldn't go to class because of the protests - as well as the janitor who got locked in a building with them.
I lived through the Kent State riots in 1970 - every public school in CA was shut down Wednesday afternoon for the rest of the week.? I was in an elective math class where the professor looked up at the announcement and simply said he wasnt' going to leave and would continue the lecture but nothing for the rest of the hour would be on a test - anyone who wanted to leave could but anyone who wanted to stay was welcome.? The entire class stayed.
?
3.? Should students on visas have to comply with all lawful orders of authoirities or face loss of their visa status?
Loss of their visas doesn't have to be the only alternative.
No but it would tend to get the attention of other individuals considering the same thign,.
?
4.? Do you think the US is going into a recession - the first quarter of this year showed a 0.3% decrease in GDP
It's possible given the likely effects of the tariff war.
?
5.? Why is power inertia important?
Well, it's a fundamental concept in physics. Other than that it depends on the context.
Aloha,
Celeste Rogers
?
|
1.? Did
the signing of an agreement between Ukraine and the US for
mineral resources surprise you?
A little, but not a lot.
2.? Do you support students on college campuses disrupting
classes protesting for political causes?
Who says they're disrupting classes?
3.? Should students on visas have to comply with all lawful
orders of authoirities or face loss of their visa status?
Loss of their visas doesn't have to be the only alternative.
4.? Do you think the US is going into a recession - the
first quarter of this year showed a 0.3% decrease in GDP
It's possible given the likely effects of the tariff war.
5.? Why is power inertia important?
Well, it's a fundamental concept in physics. Other than that it
depends on the context.
Aloha,
Celeste Rogers
|
?
?
?
?
1.? Did the signing of an agreement between Ukraine and the US for mineral resources surprise you?
Not really - lately nothing surprises me.
2.? Do you support students on college campuses disrupting classes protesting for political causes?
Absolutely not.? If they want to raise hell - let? them join the army.
3.? Should students on visas have to comply with all lawful orders of authoirities or face loss of their visa status?
Emphatically yes.? Behaviour such as has been seen at Columbia lately would get those students shot in a lot of countries.
4.? Do you think the US is going into a recession - the first quarter of this year showed a 0.3% decrease in GDP
I don't think so - I heard yesterday a comment that importers loaded up on import ahead of the tariffs and that is why GDP dropped. The prediction is that the trend will reverse in the next couple of months.
Incidentally right now I have work coming out my ears to the point I am not able to get to new jobs for a week - which is nearly a personal record for me over the last thirty five years.
5.? Why is power inertia important?
Basically because electrical power doesn't do well with quick changes in supply or demand.? Strange things like loss of frequency control can happen which can damage all kinds of things.? This is essentially what happened in Spain and Portugal this week - which shut off electrical power to about 1/3 of the customers in the Iberian peninsula.
If such a thing happened in the US it would be well beyond catastrophic.
|
1.? Did the signing of an agreement between Ukraine and the US for mineral resources surprise you?
Yes. I thought Ukraine was going to dawdle forever. I know they are in existential?mode, but since politics has merged with business practices lately, I expected deals would be more assertive and pursued with more vigor. Now I am of the opinion the international?political mess will be more resistant to wrangling than I had previously?thought.?
I did expect?Ukraine to pact with either the EU or the US eventually. The latter has evolved a new perspective on foreign aid that is based on payment. The former has never been as charitable as the US. Either partner was going to require something in return.
2.? Do you support students on college campuses disrupting classes protesting for political causes?
No. Youth is all about idealism, energy?and change. This is good. Such need tempering with social cooperation and obligation, though, and that side of the teaching may have been neglected in recent decades.
3.? Should students on visas have to comply with all lawful orders of authorities or face loss of their visa status?
Yes. There is a US young lady overseas who is serving a year for touching a security guard. Without commenting on the culture or the severity of the penalty, I am still of the opinion that if I am a guest I am bound by the host's rules. Getting booted from the premises is an expected and sometimes lenient result of?being a disrespectful guest.
Having said that, mediation is sometimes appropriate, especially if the student has the potential to offer value to the host in the future.
4.? Do you think the US is going into a recession - the first quarter of this year showed a 0.3% decrease in GDP
Too soon to tell for me, although I am far from an expert. I expect a good deal of turnabout and then more again as things are in upheaval.
5.? Why is power inertia important?
Because we are used to it and have developed our engineering around it. Were this a reality in which such were uncommon rather than a fundamental?part of physics, it would be unimportant as our entire technology and the entire shape of reality would be unimaginably alien but perfectly happy with itself.
In this reality, it is nice that automotive?braking is predictable?and even nicer that we do not fall into the sun.?
|
1.? Did the signing of an agreement between Ukraine and the US for mineral resources surprise you?
No, it was in the cards and is only symbolic anyway.
2.? Do you support students on college campuses disrupting classes protesting for political causes?
No, but I support nonviolent, nondisruptive student protests, even when the subject is controversial.? They are part of American life.
3.? Should students on visas have to comply with all lawful orders of authoirities or face loss of their visa status?
Not all orders should result in deportation.? Otherwise the system is subject to abuse.
4.? Do you think the US is going into a recession - the first quarter of this year showed a 0.3% decrease in GDP
No, but a 15% correction (euphemism of drop) in the stock market is overdue.
5.? Why is power inertia important?
As I understand it, "power inertia" means keeping frequency consistent.? Electricity suppliers work to keep voltage, amperage, and frequency within limits because electeric things don't otherwise? work right.? Low voltage leads to high amperage, which caused light bulbs, wiring and devices to overheat and burn out, low amperage causes a power loss,many devices likewise don't work properly under low frequency. ? The reason low frequency could be a problem in the past was that clocks would run slower, but I don't know what home appliances.? Motors may run slower, and this can damage things like pumps, but in the past, low frequency was not a problem because power companies would prioritize keeping frequency consistent.? I don't know enough about wind turbines or solar cells to know how feasible that is with those electricity sources.
?
1.? Did the signing of an agreement between Ukraine and the US for mineral resources surprise you?
2.? Do you support students on college campuses disrupting classes protesting for political causes?
3.? Should students on visas have to comply with all lawful orders of authoirities or face loss of their visa status?
4.? Do you think the US is going into a recession - the first quarter of this year showed a 0.3% decrease in GDP
5.? Why is power inertia important?
|
?
1.? Did the signing of an agreement between Ukraine and the US for mineral resources surprise you?
2.? Do you support students on college campuses disrupting classes protesting for political causes?
3.? Should students on visas have to comply with all lawful orders of authoirities or face loss of their visa status?
4.? Do you think the US is going into a recession - the first quarter of this year showed a 0.3% decrease in GDP
5.? Why is power inertia important?
|
Ah, David. By "educated" I am referring?to mindfulness practice. Medication and introspection. The human mind does not come with an owner's manual, yet it is more complex than a supercomputer (last I read about such things!) We do not naturally stand back a ways from our thoughts, watching them objectively?as we might mechanical systems. Instead, we immerse?in them, buying into the narratives as reality even though they?are only personal interpretations of what is experienced. Bad person, good person, hopeful situation, hopeless disaster: all interpretations. Grief, anger, prejudice, joy, us, them. All of it. Learning this and studying our own mind as an observer would relieve a lot of personal distress!
The mind does not--cannot--work in the now. It works only with past memories or stories and with future projections. Yet these are useful in passing along wisdom, avoiding problems, building social relationships and so many other things. If we were to treat our own minds as tools to create rather than as stories to live within, I think we might move more effectively into the future.
The nuclear family and all its variations is a great way to pass along wisdom. Or rather, it could be if it were not managed in such a lackadaisical fashion. Yet that results (I believe) from "uneducated" lifestyles. We scramble for short-term gratification due to short-term perspectives, as you suggest below, and never question effectively the why of all this busywork. Generation?after generation, solid families or not, we breed, eat, reproduce and die just like those bacteria, growing our colonies and mostly failing to research and create that missing user's manual. To graduate from eternal kindergarten, we need a widespread curriculum focused on educating each human to understand his own mind.
D
// ? ? ?David said: "People instinctively want peace and order and civility."
And Darrell agreed: Yes, the human mind is basically a tool to extrapolate future possibilities?from past learning?in pursuit of extending survival. Since this does not involve a true oracle but rather a best guess, having things neat and orderly best supports prediction. We strive mightily to organize the world so the next moment will not catch us off guard.?? ? ?//
I imagine that most people just want living arrangements to work well enough now.? Planning for the distant future is for professional thinkers, who seem seldom to appreciate the high degree to which their perfect systems are merely fantasies peopled by imaginary creatures.? We real people live from day to day, with the people with whom we need to associate amicably enough now, not forever.
By the way, consider Ukraine.? Politicians and diplomats are focused on their fantasies of perfectly fair and balanced solutions, whereas Ukrainians on the ground are suffering and being maimed and slaughtered?now.
// ? ??Mindfulness and similar tools can allow one to see the distinction. In this scenario, we use social standards constructively to bridge cultures without the desperate need to cram success into every attempt. We recognize individual differences and find gentle ways to account for such.? ? ? ?//
Yep, the here and now, the tangible, what works now, not might work or should work for a generation or forever.
// ? ??if I had had the wisdom?at 19 that I have at 66, I would have used this approach to secure?my then nuclear family and so prevented a lot of pain my children?experienced during?these intervening?years? ? ?//
If we didn't make poor judgements we wouldn't have them to learn from.? Pass the wisdom on to your children.? If they respect you, some of it will stick and guide them.? To return to my hobby horse, I'd imagine that passing wisdom along is more likely to be fruitful if there is a traditional home life in which to do it, an environment in which people are accustomed to talking and listening to one another at length rather than grabbing a snack and running away.
// ? ??I agree that people will suffer from "No standards = chaos without end" and yet I submit that it is the?uneducated?striving for order that has gotten the species into the current mess. If folks were trained to look more critically? ? ? //
Boy, do I hate that word "educated", almost as much as I hate "trained".
Another hobby horse.? Sigh.
? David said: "People instinctively want peace and order and civility."
And Darrell agreed: Yes, the human mind is basically a tool to extrapolate future possibilities?from past learning?in pursuit of extending survival. Since this does not involve a true oracle but rather a best guess, having things neat and orderly best supports prediction. We strive mightily to organize the world so the next moment will not catch us off guard. When it works, it is a more miraculous survival trait than long fangs, horrifying claws or deadly neurotoxins. It is unfortunate that we have also the habit of applying it inappropriately to...well, pretty much everything.
Then David stated based on Darrell's musings about lost ancestral wisdom and chaotic growth: "That's mindless, Darrell.? It's not human.? Humans *will* make order for themselves."
Darrell then rambled?on: This topic, and the human mind in general, fascinates me. I agree that humans will try to frame their world into orderly patterns with predictable consequences. I think this is an almost inevitable behavior because it is necessary to the operation of our survival computer, the human mind. I hope that there is a third?choice, however, aside from "machine order" or spastic chaos. It is possible to use the mind without immersing the operator. Mindfulness and similar tools can allow one to see the distinction. In this scenario, we use social standards constructively to bridge cultures without the desperate need to cram success into every attempt. We recognize individual differences and find gentle ways to account for such.
Referring back to the start of this thread, we could recognize that trying to block or deny the biologically embedded reproductive drives of youth is a doomed effort. We are truthful and we apply teaching from a preadolescent age to acknowledge to the child in advance that when puberty arrives, he will feel a hormonal maelstrom that will push sex and romance to the forefront of his attention. We explain consequences matter-of-factly and evolve a partnership with our children that endures throughout their journey to adulthood. I suppose this sounds like a pipe dream, but if I had had the wisdom?at 19 that I have at 66, I would have used this approach to secure?my then nuclear family and so prevented a lot of pain my children?experienced during?these intervening?years.
My focus during my active Nursing career was on coaching change for clients and patients. I consider this a proactive approach to nurturing intrinsic?motivation to approach constructive?behaviors in a manner that opens the eyes a little more each day. I agree that people will suffer from "No standards = chaos without end" and yet I submit that it is the uneducated striving for order that has gotten the species into the current mess. If folks were trained to look more critically at their own thoughts and emotions rather than buying into the inner narrative as some magical?Me, they would automatically gravitate?toward those constructive?behaviors and so the adoption of more enduring social standards.
D
// ? ??I feel there are too many people for this diversity to ever coalesce into anything that resembles a single?culture. It is a closely packed sea of colonies and I expect it to continue in the manner that bacterial colonies do: unchecked chaotic?growth until some external factor limits expansion. At that point, the colonies stagnate?and mutate, cannibalize, or simply whither as resources are exhausted. Life is not clean and neat, including cultural growth.? ? ? ?//
Yep, that is where we are.? Standards make life workable.? No standards = chaos without end.? Standards make nothing "clean and neat", Darrell, only workable.? With no standards, you have the wild west.? That didn't last long.? People instinctively want peace and order and civility.? Constant chaos is very hard on the brain and the body.? Humans are not bacteria.? We have minds and we *will* use them.? The human mind longs for and strives for order.
// ? ??Future?generations will not be orderly extensions of ancestral wisdom and values. Life breeds wildly, feeds on nearby life and inevitably changes the host.? ? ? ?//
That's mindless, Darrell.? It's not human.? Humans *will* make order for themselves.? But the order that will be chosen by default is machine order, I'm afraid.? We can do much better, but the current, lazy movement is to follow the technology.? That will give us Brave New World.? I wonder if, once we've got there, we can ever escape.? We may well be killed and eaten by our own tools.
? Okay, I think I see some of it. It may well be that we are viewing the question from different cultural perspectives. My father's sire died when he was young and his mother while?I was very young. My mother's parents divorced before I was born and I only met the original husband when I was a toddler. My maternal grandmother was the most stable link to the previous generations and even through her I know very little of them. My baby sister is fascinated by the family history and has spearheaded an effort to compile it into an organized format. I find it interesting, but not influential to me at all.
I do not see myself as strongly attached to the past, although I do see where such a perspective might lead to social stability. It is true that my family (using them as a personal example) has many parents in each generation, often with maternal household stability linking differing paternal presences. I have attributed this to the rural trend of youthful pregnancies leading to marriages at ages way too young, these leading to divorce or abandonment when the parents finally approach adulthood around 30. I have simply thought of this as the country curse wherein entrenched?Christian mores insist that deflowering of the maiden be quickly patched with "doing the right thing" no matter the well-known future pain it will bring.
Broadened to a wider perspective, I also see U.S. society as a network of many diverse cultures, each with stories and values in a manner similar to mine. The inner city, the Latino population, the Asian neighborhoods, the rural areas, the Native centers and reservations, Suburbia, Ultra-rich Suburbuia, and so on. I feel there are too many people for this diversity to ever coalesce into anything that resembles a single?culture. It is a closely packed sea of colonies and I expect it to continue in the manner that bacterial colonies do: unchecked chaotic?growth until some external factor limits expansion. At that point, the colonies stagnate?and mutate, cannibalize, or simply whither as resources are exhausted. Life is not clean and neat, including cultural growth.
It seems to me that the "social standards" of these human infections will also follow this natural pathway. I had not looked at this until you brought?it up, but I find myself neither surprised nor concerned. Future?generations will not be orderly extensions of ancestral wisdom and values. Life breeds wildly, feeds on nearby life and inevitably changes the host. I do often think back to America's Golden Ages, like the suburban 50's with their Happy Days wholesome nuclear families, wondering if we lost some wholesomeness there. I think we did, but I also believe it was as unavoidable as aging and death (currently are.) Youth seeks change and while maturity?may temper that, adulthood grows from the seeds planted in younger years.
In the end, however, it does not matter as we will continue to colonize our host with riotous change until?some factor sets an effective boundary. Then we will either adapt and grow in a different direction or we will succumb and become extinct. This is not just a physical, biological analogy?but also a social and cultural one.?
D
Lots of kids without ancestors, no?? Multiple fathers and multiple mothers don't make clear lines of succession.? It sounds to me very messy, Darrell.? I suppose it seems fine and normal to you, and that's sort of my point:? it *is* perfectly normal.? The culture is floundering, flopping around, directionless.? In fact, there is no longer a single national culture.? My family includes a couple of gay guys who may or may not be married but have succeeded in buying a child perfectly legally.? And on it goes, with everyone doing his own thing, with commitments always provisional, with all avenues always open, no stop signs.? I know how easy it is to divorce and start over - I'm divorced.? Nothing to it.? Not a bit of social opprobrium.? There are no longer any obstacles to doing anything anyone wants to do.? When's the last time you heard the phrase "social standards"?
> On Apr 27, 2025, at 00:09, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I guess my confusion is that I do not see that families are no longer breeding generation after generation. Or I am misunderstanding. I had two children with my first wife. My present wife has two from her first marriage. Almost everyone in our combined families has children. Many of the children are having children. Most of our friends do as well, and I see hordes of children in the communities I pass through.
|
// ? ? ?David said: "People instinctively want peace and order and civility."
And Darrell agreed: Yes, the human mind is basically a tool to extrapolate future possibilities?from past learning?in pursuit of extending survival. Since this does not involve a true oracle but rather a best guess, having things neat and orderly best supports prediction. We strive mightily to organize the world so the next moment will not catch us off guard.?? ? ?//
I imagine that most people just want living arrangements to work well enough now. ?Planning for the distant future is for professional thinkers, who seem seldom to appreciate the high degree to which their perfect systems are merely fantasies peopled by imaginary creatures. ?We real people live from day to day, with the people with whom we need to associate amicably enough now, not forever.
By the way, consider Ukraine. ?Politicians and diplomats are focused on their fantasies of perfectly fair and balanced solutions, whereas Ukrainians on the ground are suffering and being maimed and slaughtered?now.
// ? ??Mindfulness and similar tools can allow one to see the distinction. In this scenario, we use social standards constructively to bridge cultures without the desperate need to cram success into every attempt. We recognize individual differences and find gentle ways to account for such.? ? ? ?//
Yep, the here and now, the tangible, what works now, not might work or should work for a generation or forever.
// ? ??if I had had the wisdom?at 19 that I have at 66, I would have used this approach to secure?my then nuclear family and so prevented a lot of pain my children?experienced during?these intervening?years? ? ?//
If we didn't make poor judgements we wouldn't have them to learn from. ?Pass the wisdom on to your children. ?If they respect you, some of it will stick and guide them. ?To return to my hobby horse, I'd imagine that passing wisdom along is more likely to be fruitful if there is a traditional home life in which to do it, an environment in which people are accustomed to talking and listening to one another at length rather than grabbing a snack and running away.
// ? ??I agree that people will suffer from "No standards = chaos without end" and yet I submit that it is the?uneducated?striving for order that has gotten the species into the current mess. If folks were trained to look more critically? ? ? //
Boy, do I hate that word "educated", almost as much as I hate "trained".
Another hobby horse. ?Sigh.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Apr 28, 2025, at 13:25, Darrell King via groups.io <DarrellGKing@...> wrote:
? David said: "People instinctively want peace and order and civility."
And Darrell agreed: Yes, the human mind is basically a tool to extrapolate future possibilities?from past learning?in pursuit of extending survival. Since this does not involve a true oracle but rather a best guess, having things neat and orderly best supports prediction. We strive mightily to organize the world so the next moment will not catch us off guard. When it works, it is a more miraculous survival trait than long fangs, horrifying claws or deadly neurotoxins. It is unfortunate that we have also the habit of applying it inappropriately to...well, pretty much everything.
Then David stated based on Darrell's musings about lost ancestral wisdom and chaotic growth: "That's mindless, Darrell.? It's not human.? Humans *will* make order for themselves."
Darrell then rambled?on: This topic, and the human mind in general, fascinates me. I agree that humans will try to frame their world into orderly patterns with predictable consequences. I think this is an almost inevitable behavior because it is necessary to the operation of our survival computer, the human mind. I hope that there is a third?choice, however, aside from "machine order" or spastic chaos. It is possible to use the mind without immersing the operator. Mindfulness and similar tools can allow one to see the distinction. In this scenario, we use social standards constructively to bridge cultures without the desperate need to cram success into every attempt. We recognize individual differences and find gentle ways to account for such.
Referring back to the start of this thread, we could recognize that trying to block or deny the biologically embedded reproductive drives of youth is a doomed effort. We are truthful and we apply teaching from a preadolescent age to acknowledge to the child in advance that when puberty arrives, he will feel a hormonal maelstrom that will push sex and romance to the forefront of his attention. We explain consequences matter-of-factly and evolve a partnership with our children that endures throughout their journey to adulthood. I suppose this sounds like a pipe dream, but if I had had the wisdom?at 19 that I have at 66, I would have used this approach to secure?my then nuclear family and so prevented a lot of pain my children?experienced during?these intervening?years.
My focus during my active Nursing career was on coaching change for clients and patients. I consider this a proactive approach to nurturing intrinsic?motivation to approach constructive?behaviors in a manner that opens the eyes a little more each day. I agree that people will suffer from "No standards = chaos without end" and yet I submit that it is the uneducated striving for order that has gotten the species into the current mess. If folks were trained to look more critically at their own thoughts and emotions rather than buying into the inner narrative as some magical?Me, they would automatically gravitate?toward those constructive?behaviors and so the adoption of more enduring social standards.
D
// ? ??I feel there are too many people for this diversity to ever coalesce into anything that resembles a single?culture. It is a closely packed sea of colonies and I expect it to continue in the manner that bacterial colonies do: unchecked chaotic?growth until some external factor limits expansion. At that point, the colonies stagnate?and mutate, cannibalize, or simply whither as resources are exhausted. Life is not clean and neat, including cultural growth.? ? ? ?//
Yep, that is where we are.? Standards make life workable.? No standards = chaos without end.? Standards make nothing "clean and neat", Darrell, only workable.? With no standards, you have the wild west.? That didn't last long.? People instinctively want peace and order and civility.? Constant chaos is very hard on the brain and the body.? Humans are not bacteria.? We have minds and we *will* use them.? The human mind longs for and strives for order.
// ? ??Future?generations will not be orderly extensions of ancestral wisdom and values. Life breeds wildly, feeds on nearby life and inevitably changes the host.? ? ? ?//
That's mindless, Darrell.? It's not human.? Humans *will* make order for themselves.? But the order that will be chosen by default is machine order, I'm afraid.? We can do much better, but the current, lazy movement is to follow the technology.? That will give us Brave New World.? I wonder if, once we've got there, we can ever escape.? We may well be killed and eaten by our own tools.
? Okay, I think I see some of it. It may well be that we are viewing the question from different cultural perspectives. My father's sire died when he was young and his mother while?I was very young. My mother's parents divorced before I was born and I only met the original husband when I was a toddler. My maternal grandmother was the most stable link to the previous generations and even through her I know very little of them. My baby sister is fascinated by the family history and has spearheaded an effort to compile it into an organized format. I find it interesting, but not influential to me at all.
I do not see myself as strongly attached to the past, although I do see where such a perspective might lead to social stability. It is true that my family (using them as a personal example) has many parents in each generation, often with maternal household stability linking differing paternal presences. I have attributed this to the rural trend of youthful pregnancies leading to marriages at ages way too young, these leading to divorce or abandonment when the parents finally approach adulthood around 30. I have simply thought of this as the country curse wherein entrenched?Christian mores insist that deflowering of the maiden be quickly patched with "doing the right thing" no matter the well-known future pain it will bring.
Broadened to a wider perspective, I also see U.S. society as a network of many diverse cultures, each with stories and values in a manner similar to mine. The inner city, the Latino population, the Asian neighborhoods, the rural areas, the Native centers and reservations, Suburbia, Ultra-rich Suburbuia, and so on. I feel there are too many people for this diversity to ever coalesce into anything that resembles a single?culture. It is a closely packed sea of colonies and I expect it to continue in the manner that bacterial colonies do: unchecked chaotic?growth until some external factor limits expansion. At that point, the colonies stagnate?and mutate, cannibalize, or simply whither as resources are exhausted. Life is not clean and neat, including cultural growth.
It seems to me that the "social standards" of these human infections will also follow this natural pathway. I had not looked at this until you brought?it up, but I find myself neither surprised nor concerned. Future?generations will not be orderly extensions of ancestral wisdom and values. Life breeds wildly, feeds on nearby life and inevitably changes the host. I do often think back to America's Golden Ages, like the suburban 50's with their Happy Days wholesome nuclear families, wondering if we lost some wholesomeness there. I think we did, but I also believe it was as unavoidable as aging and death (currently are.) Youth seeks change and while maturity?may temper that, adulthood grows from the seeds planted in younger years.
In the end, however, it does not matter as we will continue to colonize our host with riotous change until?some factor sets an effective boundary. Then we will either adapt and grow in a different direction or we will succumb and become extinct. This is not just a physical, biological analogy?but also a social and cultural one.?
D
Lots of kids without ancestors, no?? Multiple fathers and multiple mothers don't make clear lines of succession.? It sounds to me very messy, Darrell.? I suppose it seems fine and normal to you, and that's sort of my point:? it *is* perfectly normal.? The culture is floundering, flopping around, directionless.? In fact, there is no longer a single national culture.? My family includes a couple of gay guys who may or may not be married but have succeeded in buying a child perfectly legally.? And on it goes, with everyone doing his own thing, with commitments always provisional, with all avenues always open, no stop signs.? I know how easy it is to divorce and start over - I'm divorced.? Nothing to it.? Not a bit of social opprobrium.? There are no longer any obstacles to doing anything anyone wants to do.? When's the last time you heard the phrase "social standards"?
> On Apr 27, 2025, at 00:09, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I guess my confusion is that I do not see that families are no longer breeding generation after generation. Or I am misunderstanding. I had two children with my first wife. My present wife has two from her first marriage. Almost everyone in our combined families has children. Many of the children are having children. Most of our friends do as well, and I see hordes of children in the communities I pass through.
|
David said: "People instinctively want peace and order and civility."
And Darrell agreed: Yes, the human mind is basically a tool to extrapolate future possibilities?from past learning?in pursuit of extending survival. Since this does not involve a true oracle but rather a best guess, having things neat and orderly best supports prediction. We strive mightily to organize the world so the next moment will not catch us off guard. When it works, it is a more miraculous survival trait than long fangs, horrifying claws or deadly neurotoxins. It is unfortunate that we have also the habit of applying it inappropriately to...well, pretty much everything.
Then David stated based on Darrell's musings about lost ancestral wisdom and chaotic growth: "That's mindless, Darrell.? It's not human.? Humans *will* make order for themselves."
Darrell then rambled?on: This topic, and the human mind in general, fascinates me. I agree that humans will try to frame their world into orderly patterns with predictable consequences. I think this is an almost inevitable behavior because it is necessary to the operation of our survival computer, the human mind. I hope that there is a third?choice, however, aside from "machine order" or spastic chaos. It is possible to use the mind without immersing the operator. Mindfulness and similar tools can allow one to see the distinction. In this scenario, we use social standards constructively to bridge cultures without the desperate need to cram success into every attempt. We recognize individual differences and find gentle ways to account for such.
Referring back to the start of this thread, we could recognize that trying to block or deny the biologically embedded reproductive drives of youth is a doomed effort. We are truthful and we apply teaching from a preadolescent age to acknowledge to the child in advance that when puberty arrives, he will feel a hormonal maelstrom that will push sex and romance to the forefront of his attention. We explain consequences matter-of-factly and evolve a partnership with our children that endures throughout their journey to adulthood. I suppose this sounds like a pipe dream, but if I had had the wisdom?at 19 that I have at 66, I would have used this approach to secure?my then nuclear family and so prevented a lot of pain my children?experienced during?these intervening?years.
My focus during my active Nursing career was on coaching change for clients and patients. I consider this a proactive approach to nurturing intrinsic?motivation to approach constructive?behaviors in a manner that opens the eyes a little more each day. I agree that people will suffer from "No standards = chaos without end" and yet I submit that it is the uneducated striving for order that has gotten the species into the current mess. If folks were trained to look more critically at their own thoughts and emotions rather than buying into the inner narrative as some magical?Me, they would automatically gravitate?toward those constructive?behaviors and so the adoption of more enduring social standards.
D
// ? ??I feel there are too many people for this diversity to ever coalesce into anything that resembles a single?culture. It is a closely packed sea of colonies and I expect it to continue in the manner that bacterial colonies do: unchecked chaotic?growth until some external factor limits expansion. At that point, the colonies stagnate?and mutate, cannibalize, or simply whither as resources are exhausted. Life is not clean and neat, including cultural growth.? ? ? ?//
Yep, that is where we are.? Standards make life workable.? No standards = chaos without end.? Standards make nothing "clean and neat", Darrell, only workable.? With no standards, you have the wild west.? That didn't last long.? People instinctively want peace and order and civility.? Constant chaos is very hard on the brain and the body.? Humans are not bacteria.? We have minds and we *will* use them.? The human mind longs for and strives for order.
// ? ??Future?generations will not be orderly extensions of ancestral wisdom and values. Life breeds wildly, feeds on nearby life and inevitably changes the host.? ? ? ?//
That's mindless, Darrell.? It's not human.? Humans *will* make order for themselves.? But the order that will be chosen by default is machine order, I'm afraid.? We can do much better, but the current, lazy movement is to follow the technology.? That will give us Brave New World.? I wonder if, once we've got there, we can ever escape.? We may well be killed and eaten by our own tools.
? Okay, I think I see some of it. It may well be that we are viewing the question from different cultural perspectives. My father's sire died when he was young and his mother while?I was very young. My mother's parents divorced before I was born and I only met the original husband when I was a toddler. My maternal grandmother was the most stable link to the previous generations and even through her I know very little of them. My baby sister is fascinated by the family history and has spearheaded an effort to compile it into an organized format. I find it interesting, but not influential to me at all.
I do not see myself as strongly attached to the past, although I do see where such a perspective might lead to social stability. It is true that my family (using them as a personal example) has many parents in each generation, often with maternal household stability linking differing paternal presences. I have attributed this to the rural trend of youthful pregnancies leading to marriages at ages way too young, these leading to divorce or abandonment when the parents finally approach adulthood around 30. I have simply thought of this as the country curse wherein entrenched?Christian mores insist that deflowering of the maiden be quickly patched with "doing the right thing" no matter the well-known future pain it will bring.
Broadened to a wider perspective, I also see U.S. society as a network of many diverse cultures, each with stories and values in a manner similar to mine. The inner city, the Latino population, the Asian neighborhoods, the rural areas, the Native centers and reservations, Suburbia, Ultra-rich Suburbuia, and so on. I feel there are too many people for this diversity to ever coalesce into anything that resembles a single?culture. It is a closely packed sea of colonies and I expect it to continue in the manner that bacterial colonies do: unchecked chaotic?growth until some external factor limits expansion. At that point, the colonies stagnate?and mutate, cannibalize, or simply whither as resources are exhausted. Life is not clean and neat, including cultural growth.
It seems to me that the "social standards" of these human infections will also follow this natural pathway. I had not looked at this until you brought?it up, but I find myself neither surprised nor concerned. Future?generations will not be orderly extensions of ancestral wisdom and values. Life breeds wildly, feeds on nearby life and inevitably changes the host. I do often think back to America's Golden Ages, like the suburban 50's with their Happy Days wholesome nuclear families, wondering if we lost some wholesomeness there. I think we did, but I also believe it was as unavoidable as aging and death (currently are.) Youth seeks change and while maturity?may temper that, adulthood grows from the seeds planted in younger years.
In the end, however, it does not matter as we will continue to colonize our host with riotous change until?some factor sets an effective boundary. Then we will either adapt and grow in a different direction or we will succumb and become extinct. This is not just a physical, biological analogy?but also a social and cultural one.?
D
Lots of kids without ancestors, no?? Multiple fathers and multiple mothers don't make clear lines of succession.? It sounds to me very messy, Darrell.? I suppose it seems fine and normal to you, and that's sort of my point:? it *is* perfectly normal.? The culture is floundering, flopping around, directionless.? In fact, there is no longer a single national culture.? My family includes a couple of gay guys who may or may not be married but have succeeded in buying a child perfectly legally.? And on it goes, with everyone doing his own thing, with commitments always provisional, with all avenues always open, no stop signs.? I know how easy it is to divorce and start over - I'm divorced.? Nothing to it.? Not a bit of social opprobrium.? There are no longer any obstacles to doing anything anyone wants to do.? When's the last time you heard the phrase "social standards"?
> On Apr 27, 2025, at 00:09, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I guess my confusion is that I do not see that families are no longer breeding generation after generation. Or I am misunderstanding. I had two children with my first wife. My present wife has two from her first marriage. Almost everyone in our combined families has children. Many of the children are having children. Most of our friends do as well, and I see hordes of children in the communities I pass through.
|
// ? ??I feel there are too many people for this diversity to ever coalesce into anything that resembles a single?culture. It is a closely packed sea of colonies and I expect it to continue in the manner that bacterial colonies do: unchecked chaotic?growth until some external factor limits expansion. At that point, the colonies stagnate?and mutate, cannibalize, or simply whither as resources are exhausted. Life is not clean and neat, including cultural growth.? ? ? ?//
Yep, that is where we are. ?Standards make life workable. ?No standards = chaos without end. ?Standards make nothing "clean and neat", Darrell, only workable. ?With no standards, you have the wild west. ?That didn't last long. ?People instinctively want peace and order and civility. ?Constant chaos is very hard on the brain and the body. ?Humans are not bacteria. ?We have minds and we *will* use them. ?The human mind longs for and strives for order.
// ? ??Future?generations will not be orderly extensions of ancestral wisdom and values. Life breeds wildly, feeds on nearby life and inevitably changes the host.? ? ? ?//
That's mindless, Darrell. ?It's not human. ?Humans *will* make order for themselves. ?But the order that will be chosen by default is machine order, I'm afraid. ?We can do much better, but the current, lazy movement is to follow the technology. ?That will give us Brave New World. ?I wonder if, once we've got there, we can ever escape. ?We may well be killed and eaten by our own tools.
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On Apr 27, 2025, at 13:18, Darrell King via groups.io <DarrellGKing@...> wrote:
? Okay, I think I see some of it. It may well be that we are viewing the question from different cultural perspectives. My father's sire died when he was young and his mother while?I was very young. My mother's parents divorced before I was born and I only met the original husband when I was a toddler. My maternal grandmother was the most stable link to the previous generations and even through her I know very little of them. My baby sister is fascinated by the family history and has spearheaded an effort to compile it into an organized format. I find it interesting, but not influential to me at all.
I do not see myself as strongly attached to the past, although I do see where such a perspective might lead to social stability. It is true that my family (using them as a personal example) has many parents in each generation, often with maternal household stability linking differing paternal presences. I have attributed this to the rural trend of youthful pregnancies leading to marriages at ages way too young, these leading to divorce or abandonment when the parents finally approach adulthood around 30. I have simply thought of this as the country curse wherein entrenched?Christian mores insist that deflowering of the maiden be quickly patched with "doing the right thing" no matter the well-known future pain it will bring.
Broadened to a wider perspective, I also see U.S. society as a network of many diverse cultures, each with stories and values in a manner similar to mine. The inner city, the Latino population, the Asian neighborhoods, the rural areas, the Native centers and reservations, Suburbia, Ultra-rich Suburbuia, and so on. I feel there are too many people for this diversity to ever coalesce into anything that resembles a single?culture. It is a closely packed sea of colonies and I expect it to continue in the manner that bacterial colonies do: unchecked chaotic?growth until some external factor limits expansion. At that point, the colonies stagnate?and mutate, cannibalize, or simply whither as resources are exhausted. Life is not clean and neat, including cultural growth.
It seems to me that the "social standards" of these human infections will also follow this natural pathway. I had not looked at this until you brought?it up, but I find myself neither surprised nor concerned. Future?generations will not be orderly extensions of ancestral wisdom and values. Life breeds wildly, feeds on nearby life and inevitably changes the host. I do often think back to America's Golden Ages, like the suburban 50's with their Happy Days wholesome nuclear families, wondering if we lost some wholesomeness there. I think we did, but I also believe it was as unavoidable as aging and death (currently are.) Youth seeks change and while maturity?may temper that, adulthood grows from the seeds planted in younger years.
In the end, however, it does not matter as we will continue to colonize our host with riotous change until?some factor sets an effective boundary. Then we will either adapt and grow in a different direction or we will succumb and become extinct. This is not just a physical, biological analogy?but also a social and cultural one.?
D
Lots of kids without ancestors, no?? Multiple fathers and multiple mothers don't make clear lines of succession.? It sounds to me very messy, Darrell.? I suppose it seems fine and normal to you, and that's sort of my point:? it *is* perfectly normal.? The culture is floundering, flopping around, directionless.? In fact, there is no longer a single national culture.? My family includes a couple of gay guys who may or may not be married but have succeeded in buying a child perfectly legally.? And on it goes, with everyone doing his own thing, with commitments always provisional, with all avenues always open, no stop signs.? I know how easy it is to divorce and start over - I'm divorced.? Nothing to it.? Not a bit of social opprobrium.? There are no longer any obstacles to doing anything anyone wants to do.? When's the last time you heard the phrase "social standards"?
> On Apr 27, 2025, at 00:09, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I guess my confusion is that I do not see that families are no longer breeding generation after generation. Or I am misunderstanding. I had two children with my first wife. My present wife has two from her first marriage. Almost everyone in our combined families has children. Many of the children are having children. Most of our friends do as well, and I see hordes of children in the communities I pass through.
|
Okay, I think I see some of it. It may well be that we are viewing the question from different cultural perspectives. My father's sire died when he was young and his mother while?I was very young. My mother's parents divorced before I was born and I only met the original husband when I was a toddler. My maternal grandmother was the most stable link to the previous generations and even through her I know very little of them. My baby sister is fascinated by the family history and has spearheaded an effort to compile it into an organized format. I find it interesting, but not influential to me at all.
I do not see myself as strongly attached to the past, although I do see where such a perspective might lead to social stability. It is true that my family (using them as a personal example) has many parents in each generation, often with maternal household stability linking differing paternal presences. I have attributed this to the rural trend of youthful pregnancies leading to marriages at ages way too young, these leading to divorce or abandonment when the parents finally approach adulthood around 30. I have simply thought of this as the country curse wherein entrenched?Christian mores insist that deflowering of the maiden be quickly patched with "doing the right thing" no matter the well-known future pain it will bring.
Broadened to a wider perspective, I also see U.S. society as a network of many diverse cultures, each with stories and values in a manner similar to mine. The inner city, the Latino population, the Asian neighborhoods, the rural areas, the Native centers and reservations, Suburbia, Ultra-rich Suburbuia, and so on. I feel there are too many people for this diversity to ever coalesce into anything that resembles a single?culture. It is a closely packed sea of colonies and I expect it to continue in the manner that bacterial colonies do: unchecked chaotic?growth until some external factor limits expansion. At that point, the colonies stagnate?and mutate, cannibalize, or simply whither as resources are exhausted. Life is not clean and neat, including cultural growth.
It seems to me that the "social standards" of these human infections will also follow this natural pathway. I had not looked at this until you brought?it up, but I find myself neither surprised nor concerned. Future?generations will not be orderly extensions of ancestral wisdom and values. Life breeds wildly, feeds on nearby life and inevitably changes the host. I do often think back to America's Golden Ages, like the suburban 50's with their Happy Days wholesome nuclear families, wondering if we lost some wholesomeness there. I think we did, but I also believe it was as unavoidable as aging and death (currently are.) Youth seeks change and while maturity?may temper that, adulthood grows from the seeds planted in younger years.
In the end, however, it does not matter as we will continue to colonize our host with riotous change until?some factor sets an effective boundary. Then we will either adapt and grow in a different direction or we will succumb and become extinct. This is not just a physical, biological analogy?but also a social and cultural one.?
D
Lots of kids without ancestors, no?? Multiple fathers and multiple mothers don't make clear lines of succession.? It sounds to me very messy, Darrell.? I suppose it seems fine and normal to you, and that's sort of my point:? it *is* perfectly normal.? The culture is floundering, flopping around, directionless.? In fact, there is no longer a single national culture.? My family includes a couple of gay guys who may or may not be married but have succeeded in buying a child perfectly legally.? And on it goes, with everyone doing his own thing, with commitments always provisional, with all avenues always open, no stop signs.? I know how easy it is to divorce and start over - I'm divorced.? Nothing to it.? Not a bit of social opprobrium.? There are no longer any obstacles to doing anything anyone wants to do.? When's the last time you heard the phrase "social standards"?
> On Apr 27, 2025, at 00:09, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I guess my confusion is that I do not see that families are no longer breeding generation after generation. Or I am misunderstanding. I had two children with my first wife. My present wife has two from her first marriage. Almost everyone in our combined families has children. Many of the children are having children. Most of our friends do as well, and I see hordes of children in the communities I pass through.
|
David Smith