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Losmandy G11G and Gemini2 with SGP

 

Hello,

I¡¯ve been using SGP for a couple years now and just completed my automated observatory. I¡¯ve been having some trouble getting to that 100% automation mark because I have the following issue with my Losmandy G11G with Gemini2:

My mount will not do a meridian flip through SGP unless I manually do a model (east and west) through the hand controller. So every time I image I have to go out the observatory and manually go through the hand controller to make the model. I don¡¯t actually look through the telescope, but I still have to set it up. If I don¡¯t make this model SGP will fail to perform a meridian flip and error out.

In addition, if I have already made a model through Gemini 2 and parked the telescope previously through SGP (meridian flips work at this point) and then unpark, SGP fails to perform a meridian flip with the telescope. I have to make a new model again.

Any help is greatly appreciated - I¡¯m sure I¡¯m making some simple mistake here.

Thanks,
Fritz
 

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Hi Fritz

?

Are you plate solving in SGP?

?

I use SGP with my G11/Gemini 2 and do meridian flips pretty much every night.

?

I never build a model on the gemini, I just plate solve

?

?

?

?

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fritz
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 3:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Losmandy_users_io] Losmandy G11G and Gemini2 with SGP

?

Hello,


I¡¯ve been using SGP for a couple years now and just completed my automated observatory. I¡¯ve been having some trouble getting to that 100% automation mark because I have the following issue with my Losmandy G11G with Gemini2:

My mount will not do a meridian flip through SGP unless I manually do a model (east and west) through the hand controller. So every time I image I have to go out the observatory and manually go through the hand controller to make the model. I don¡¯t actually look through the telescope, but I still have to set it up. If I don¡¯t make this model SGP will fail to perform a meridian flip and error out.

In addition, if I have already made a model through Gemini 2 and parked the telescope previously through SGP (meridian flips work at this point) and then unpark, SGP fails to perform a meridian flip with the telescope. I have to make a new model again.

Any help is greatly appreciated - I¡¯m sure I¡¯m making some simple mistake here.

Thanks,
Fritz
 

I think many users are getting issues with meridian flips not occurring as the mount is still tracking sidereal ?rate. You have to perform a stop tracking command prior to executing a meridian flip.?


it rejects meridian flip command if the system is currently tracking.?
--
Brendan
 

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the input. I do plate solve with SGP and that bit works like a charm. If I do not make a model, the mount and SGP will plate solve just fine on the target, begin imaging, etc., but when the time comes to perform a meridian flip it will not perform it and crashes SGP. If I try to issue a meridian flip on the controller it also will not perform a meridian flip unless I have a model.

Would it be possible for you to take a screenshot of your specific Gemini 2 settings?

Thanks!
Fritz
 

Brendan - is there a setting in SGP where this is an input? I could not find anything like that int he settings for the meridian flip in SGP.

Thanks,
Fritz
 

Hi Fritz

here are my settings via screen caps

if you need something else, happy to help




Brian


On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 2:24 PM Fritz <fritzlaun1@...> wrote:
Hi Brian,

Thanks for the input. I do plate solve with SGP and that bit works like a charm. If I do not make a model, the mount and SGP will plate solve just fine on the target, begin imaging, etc., but when the time comes to perform a meridian flip it will not perform it and crashes SGP. If I try to issue a meridian flip on the controller it also will not perform a meridian flip unless I have a model.

Would it be possible for you to take a screenshot of your specific Gemini 2 settings?

Thanks!
Fritz



--
Brian?



Brian Valente
portfolio

 

Hi Fritz,

Have also had some issues with meridian flips though re-inputing the model was not the solution. Some nights all would go well and other nights things would stall. Either the scope would not start slewing to the flip position, or after the flip the scope would not move. No setting changes were made between these events.

My suspicions were there was something going on with the safety limits. Between two targets, the difference would be the declination and perhaps this would affect the exact time of when the mount encounters the limit value ?

In one case the flip was delayed a few minutes as SGP was in the middle of of long exposure frame so it got past the limit with the warning beeps going off. At that point the mount would not slew itself out of this position. In another case I think the mount may have been thinking the flip side is past the safety limit and just won't go there (no beeping).

I was using the MI-250 safety limits of 92 Eastern, 95 Western and 0 Western GoTo; now I use 98, 95, and 2.5 respectively. My flip issues have not occurred in quite a while now.?

This is just partial theory and not a hard answer to what might be causing the issues for you (or me). I can just tell you after making the limit changes the flip issue seems the have been solved, or at least for the moment.?

So hopefully I'm sending some clues on something to try.

Regards,

John
 

Hi John, et al.

Your comment about the safety limits might be right as to totally preventing a flip command from executing.
But the safety limits should not cause the flip from going to the wrong place. That has to be some mis-calculation in the Gemini (no one outside Losmandy has the source code to know), or something mechanical...

I suppose that the mechanical issue could be the Cone Angle adjustment that could cause the flipped scope from being at the right sky location.
That's why the guidance in the Gemini (1) manual says to do an ALIGN (not a Synch!) to 3 stars on one side of meridian (say West) then 3 more stars on the other side of the meridian (say East).??

Do you folks adjust your?scopes rings height in the dovetail/saddle for Cone Angle???
It is recommended but I seldom bother... and this laziness is probably my own trouble!

Anyway, in case you cannot get a Meridian Flip command to execute at all, it is likely the Limit settings. Here is a PDF on how to get to those settings in the Gemini.net applet.??

Best of luck,
Michael



On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 8:37 AM John Kmetz <jjkmetz54@...> wrote:
Hi Fritz,

Have also had some issues with meridian flips though re-inputing the model was not the solution. Some nights all would go well and other nights things would stall. Either the scope would not start slewing to the flip position, or after the flip the scope would not move. No setting changes were made between these events.

My suspicions were there was something going on with the safety limits. Between two targets, the difference would be the declination and perhaps this would affect the exact time of when the mount encounters the limit value ?

In one case the flip was delayed a few minutes as SGP was in the middle of of long exposure frame so it got past the limit with the warning beeps going off. At that point the mount would not slew itself out of this position. In another case I think the mount may have been thinking the flip side is past the safety limit and just won't go there (no beeping).

I was using the MI-250 safety limits of 92 Eastern, 95 Western and 0 Western GoTo; now I use 98, 95, and 2.5 respectively. My flip issues have not occurred in quite a while now.?

This is just partial theory and not a hard answer to what might be causing the issues for you (or me). I can just tell you after making the limit changes the flip issue seems the have been solved, or at least for the moment.?

So hopefully I'm sending some clues on something to try.

Regards,

John



--
Michael Herman
mobile: 408 421-1239
email: mherman346@...
 

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your input.

Haven't really done much with cone angle other the trying to closely align both main scope and guide scope, but not with regard to the mount. I do have the two-piece RA extension kit but don't use any blocks under the rings. Clearance is fine with my 100mm refractor, but things get a little more close to the pier when using the much wider C925 which just sits in the dovetail clamp.

The big unknown to me is how the limit settings influence the behaviour of SGP. Sometimes the Gemini and SGP apps don't interact well, and that's all in the coding which I have no aptitude with.

So some of this may amount to trial and error which may give Fritz his solution.

Regards,

John
 

Brian,

are you able to add an image of your Gemini Modeling parameters/results and also your Western Go-To Limit?

Guys - I too an having problems with Gemini and SGP and had almost given up. So very interested in this thread.

Thanks,
Paul
 

Hi Paul

yes i uploaded a link to those already

just scroll up a few messages on the web interface to this thread

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 1:40 PM <pabyron66@...> wrote:
Brian,

are you able to add an image of your Gemini Modeling parameters/results and also your Western Go-To Limit?

Guys - I too an having problems with Gemini and SGP and had almost given up. So very interested in this thread.

Thanks,
Paul



--
Brian?



Brian Valente
portfolio

 

I've had problems with? Meridian Flips. Well I've never got a? meridian flip without moving back to cwd and then moving back to the object.
I've used SGP ,and tried it with only ascom by turning off tracking and pushing meridian flip with it past meridian no avail. I'm thinking it won't do a flip, or I'm doing something wrong which? I'm hoping. I know one thing I saw was I have never made a model I've only used plate solve. I've gone to a bright star, sync and plate solved. Does it need to have model made to do a flip?
Glen
?
 

HI Glen

you do not need to do a geminibased model. if you plate solve, that eliminates the need for model building.?

meridian flip works for me, though I wish the mechanisms are more obvious to me so I can say do this: 1, 2, 3 etc.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 9:59 AM glnth <IDEAL18@...> wrote:
I've had problems with? Meridian Flips. Well I've never got a? meridian flip without moving back to cwd and then moving back to the object.
I've used SGP ,and tried it with only ascom by turning off tracking and pushing meridian flip with it past meridian no avail. I'm thinking it won't do a flip, or I'm doing something wrong which? I'm hoping. I know one thing I saw was I have never made a model I've only used plate solve. I've gone to a bright star, sync and plate solved. Does it need to have model made to do a flip?
Glen
?



--
Brian?



Brian Valente
portfolio

 

?
Brian,
Do you do the flip in ascom or with the hand controller?

Glen
 

i have automated flip via SGP, so ASCOM



On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 11:47 AM glnth <IDEAL18@...> wrote:
?
Brian,
Do you do the flip in ascom or with the hand controller?

Glen



--
Brian?



Brian Valente
portfolio

 

Brian,

I've looked at the images you've provided, but they don't answer the specific questions I'm after, so I'll pose them here:

  1. In your Gemini Modeling parameters, are all the values zero or have you initially created some sort of pointing model?
  2. Do you start with a East and West point model before you then start up SGP?
  3. In the SGP Plate Solving setting, what is your "Scope Centering ¡­. until error is less than xx pixels" set to??
  4. Your Western and Eastern?Limits are set to 123 and 114 respectively, but what is your Western Go-To Limit from CWD set to?
  5. I note in your Gemini settings, you don't have the "Gemini expects J2000 co-ordinates" ticked yet I thought as?SGP only works?with J2000 Gemini would have to be set the same way. This is interesting as I've never unticked the J2000 checkbox in Gemini so I might have to try that - any comments?. ?
  6. In SGP in your Autoguiding Parameters, do you pause guiding between subs to effectively stop tracking to allow SGP to trigger a Flip? Else how do you stop tracking to allow a flip to proceed?

Sorry for all the questions, but you've reigned my?desire to get this sorted.

Paul?
 

HI Paul

sure - answers inline below



On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 1:42 PM <pabyron66@...> wrote:
Brian,

I've looked at the images you've provided, but they don't answer the specific questions I'm after, so I'll pose them here:

  1. In your Gemini Modeling parameters, are all the values zero or have you initially created some sort of pointing model?

i don't do any modeling with Gemini. I cold start (or warm start if nothing has changed from previous night) and plate solve only.
?
  1. Do you start with a East and West point model before you then start up SGP?

see above - no pointing model created or used. Plate solve only?
  1. In the SGP Plate Solving setting, what is your "Scope Centering ¡­. until error is less than xx pixels" set to??
probably default - 50 px?
  1. Your Western and Eastern?Limits are set to 123 and 114 respectively, but what is your Western Go-To Limit from CWD set to?
I don't know, i can check, but I'm fairly sure that only relates to meridian flips done manually via hand controller. i'll have to research that one a bit (or maybe someone else knows for sure)
?
  1. I note in your Gemini settings, you don't have the "Gemini expects J2000 co-ordinates" ticked yet I thought as?SGP only works?with J2000 Gemini would have to be set the same way. This is interesting as I've never unticked the J2000 checkbox in Gemini so I might have to try that - any comments?. ?

Can't say? i have only used defaults here, i haven't purposefully changed anything?
  1. In SGP in your Autoguiding Parameters, do you pause guiding between subs to effectively stop tracking to allow SGP to trigger a Flip? Else how do you stop tracking to allow a flip to proceed?

i do not. I believe SGP automatically stops tracking and does the flip. I do know it stops guiding for the flip, but i can look through my SGP logs and see if it gives any additional hints
?

Sorry for all the questions, but you've reigned my?desire to get this sorted.


cool! hopefully you can get it running

honestly I don't think i've done much other than the defaults.?
?

Paul?



--
Brian?



Brian Valente
portfolio

 

Thank you everyone for the incredible response! Just like Paul, this has been something of an issue for years and now with a permanent setup is a big problem.

In order to avoid safety limit issues I have had the SGP settings set to:

- Minutes Past Meridian to Flip: 0
- Wait for Meridian (checked)

I'm going to try the new safety limit settings but here is more details on what has been failing for me if I do not make a model:

1) turn mount ON
2) connect mount via Gemini PC controller as CWD
3) connect mount in SGP along with other devices
*at this point SGP shows the correct time to meridian flip?
4) run sequence
5) plate solves perfectly
6) imaging begins, guiding, etc. just fine
* predicted time to meridian flip in SGP is still correct.?
7) time for meridian flip - SGP begins the command and opens the window for the automatic meridian flip and freezes when trying to issue the command after nothing happens. SGP then completely force closes
 

Fritz it's worth grabbing your SGP log next time it works or doesn't work

here's some excerpts from my SGP log from last night, perhaps we can compare yours vs. what a successful flip looks like and figure out where it's not doing what it's supposed to.



First here's a couple typical entries showing it's checking for meridian flip criteria (these are pretty far apart, but look at the angle until flip)

[11/07/19 20:33:21.980][DEBUG] [Sequence Thread] Checking if Meridian Flip is needed
[11/07/19 20:33:21.984][DEBUG] [Sequence Thread] Telescope is on the West side of the mount
[11/07/19 20:33:21.984][DEBUG] [Sequence Thread] Meridian Flip not needed, Hour Angle < Degrees Past To Flip: -46.80174 < 0.25

and another one later in the night:

[11/07/19 21:25:21.966][DEBUG] [Sequence Thread] Checking if Meridian Flip is needed
[11/07/19 21:25:21.971][DEBUG] [Sequence Thread] Telescope is on the West side of the mount
[11/07/19 21:25:21.972][DEBUG] [Sequence Thread] Meridian Flip not needed, Hour Angle < Degrees Past To Flip: -33.866415 < 0.25




Here's when it actually flips, you can see it stops PHD, and flips via a sideofpier call, and then rolls into the auto center routine



[11/07/19 23:40:16.353][DEBUG] [Sequence Thread] Checking if Meridian Flip is needed
[11/07/19 23:40:16.358][DEBUG] [Sequence Thread] Telescope is on the West side of the mount
[11/07/19 23:40:16.359][DEBUG] [Sequence Thread] Meridian Flip needed, Hour Angle >= Degrees Past To Flip: 1.355655 >= 0.25
[11/07/19 23:40:16.359][DEBUG] [Sequence Thread] Running blocking meridian flip...
[11/07/19 23:40:16.359][DEBUG] [Main Thread] Adding sequence level notification: Running automatic pier flip...
[11/07/19 23:40:16.362][DEBUG] [Sequence Thread] Sending Notification: Status - Running automatic pier flip...
[11/07/19 23:40:16.433][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Meridian Flip: Starting Meridian Flip Procedure
[11/07/19 23:40:16.433][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Meridian flip: ?Skipped initial plate solve, use target as reference...
[11/07/19 23:40:16.435][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Meridian Flip: Stopping the Auto Guider
[11/07/19 23:40:16.435][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Attempting to stop PHD2 guiding...
[11/07/19 23:40:16.435][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Checking PHD2 state...
[11/07/19 23:40:16.435][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] PHD2 GetPhdStatus - Pre-Wait : Guiding
[11/07/19 23:40:16.435][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Sending to PHD2:
{"method": "get_app_state", "id": 1001}

[11/07/19 23:40:16.537][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] PHD2 GetPhdStatus - Post-Wait: Guiding
[11/07/19 23:40:16.537][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Sending to PHD2:
{"method": "stop_capture", "id": 1004}

[11/07/19 23:40:16.537][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Checking PHD2 state...
[11/07/19 23:40:16.537][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] PHD2 GetPhdStatus - Pre-Wait : Guiding
[11/07/19 23:40:16.537][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Sending to PHD2:
{"method": "get_app_state", "id": 1001}

[11/07/19 23:40:16.638][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] PHD2 GetPhdStatus - Post-Wait: Guiding
[11/07/19 23:40:17.639][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Checking PHD2 state...
[11/07/19 23:40:17.639][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] PHD2 GetPhdStatus - Pre-Wait : Guiding
[11/07/19 23:40:17.639][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Sending to PHD2:
{"method": "get_app_state", "id": 1001}

[11/07/19 23:40:17.739][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] PHD2 GetPhdStatus - Post-Wait: Stopped
[11/07/19 23:40:17.739][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] PHD2: Successfully stopped PHD2...
[11/07/19 23:40:17.739][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Meridian Flip: Sending Telescope command to execute meridian flip
[11/07/19 23:40:17.757][DEBUG] [Telescope Thread] ASCOM Telescope: Pier side is West
[11/07/19 23:40:17.757][DEBUG] [Telescope Thread] ASCOM Telescope: attempting pier flip using sideOfPier
[11/07/19 23:40:17.813][DEBUG] [Telescope Thread] Setting Pier East
[11/07/19 23:41:11.771][DEBUG] [Main Thread] PopulateDataModel: ?Transferring view to the data model...
[11/07/19 23:41:11.811][DEBUG] [MF Update Thread] Performing serialize...
[11/07/19 23:41:12.269][DEBUG] [MF Update Thread] Serialization took 458 msec.
[11/07/19 23:41:17.727][DEBUG] [PHD2 Listener Thread] PHD2 - No messages received from PHD2 for 1 minute, checking socket with status...
[11/07/19 23:41:17.727][DEBUG] [PHD2 Listener Thread] Checking PHD2 state...
[11/07/19 23:41:17.727][DEBUG] [PHD2 Listener Thread] PHD2 GetPhdStatus - Pre-Wait : Stopped
[11/07/19 23:41:17.727][DEBUG] [PHD2 Listener Thread] Sending to PHD2:
{"method": "get_app_state", "id": 1001}

[11/07/19 23:41:17.727][DEBUG] [PHD2 Listener Thread] PHD2 GetPhdStatus - Post-Wait: Stopped
[11/07/19 23:41:20.652][DEBUG] [Telescope Thread] ASCOM Telescope: Waiting until pier side changes...
[11/07/19 23:41:21.656][DEBUG] [Telescope Thread] ASCOM Telescope: Side of pier changed, waiting for scope to report it's done slewing...
[11/07/19 23:41:21.768][DEBUG] [Telescope Thread] ASCOM Telescope: Scope to reports it's done slewing...
[11/07/19 23:41:21.768][DEBUG] [Telescope Thread] ASCOM Telescope: Settling scope 5 seconds...
[11/07/19 23:41:26.772][DEBUG] [Telescope Thread] ASCOM Telescope: Pier side is East
[11/07/19 23:41:27.817][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Meridian Flip: Telescope command to meridian flip has completed
[11/07/19 23:41:27.819][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Meridian Flip: Telescope has performed meridian flip
[11/07/19 23:41:27.819][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Meridian Flip: Flipping Auto Guider calibration data
[11/07/19 23:41:27.820][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Sending to PHD2:
{"method": "flip_calibration", "id": 1005}

[11/07/19 23:41:27.879][DEBUG] [PHD2 Listener Thread] Unknown object from PHD2: {"Event":"ConfigurationChange","Timestamp":1573198887.846,"Host":"INTEL-NUC","Inst":1}
[11/07/19 23:41:28.821][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Autoguider (PHD2) successfully flipped calibration data
[11/07/19 23:41:28.821][DEBUG] [Pier Flip Thread] Meridian Flip: Performing Auto Center


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 7:49 PM Fritz <fritzlaun1@...> wrote:
Thank you everyone for the incredible response! Just like Paul, this has been something of an issue for years and now with a permanent setup is a big problem.

In order to avoid safety limit issues I have had the SGP settings set to:

- Minutes Past Meridian to Flip: 0
- Wait for Meridian (checked)

I'm going to try the new safety limit settings but here is more details on what has been failing for me if I do not make a model:

1) turn mount ON
2) connect mount via Gemini PC controller as CWD
3) connect mount in SGP along with other devices
*at this point SGP shows the correct time to meridian flip?
4) run sequence
5) plate solves perfectly
6) imaging begins, guiding, etc. just fine
* predicted time to meridian flip in SGP is still correct.?
7) time for meridian flip - SGP begins the command and opens the window for the automatic meridian flip and freezes when trying to issue the command after nothing happens. SGP then completely force closes



--
Brian?



Brian Valente
portfolio

 

I tried the settings with ascom and sgp and this is what I got in the sgp log file.
and it was tracking on the east side but within 1hr to the meridian.

[11/09/19 15:07:47.095][DEBUG] [Sequence Thread] Checking if Meridian Flip is needed
[11/09/19 15:07:47.096][DEBUG] [Sequence Thread] Meridian flip not needed, telescope on Unknown side

On the bottom right side of sgp in the scope for the flip time it has NA. But when I double click on it the time to the flip it comes up, but when I look in control panel under telescope the use auto meridian flip is unchecked now. When I check it the time to flip goes to NA again? And it doesn't show in the log file of the changes. If it would I don't know.

How do you let it know what side of the pier it is on? I saw some where but I think it was in a fits header?

By the way
Thank You everyone for helping us with this problem! It is very much appreciated!? ?

Glen

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