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I have been mostly using my month old G11G with NINA, but started trying the ASIAIR this week. Overall, going well and getting good subs. But there are quirks that I would fix if there is a way.

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1. moving the mount. I find that I need to power cycle the mount with the app running before the app thinks it can move the mount. not a big deal, just have to remember the order. Starting the app with the mount already up and running hasn't worked for me so far.

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2. GOTOs generally happen, but the behavior in the ASIAIR app's sky atlas isn't reliable. Sometimes it seems to wait for moves that the mount seems to have completed. I stop the slew and tap the goto button again and it figures it out.

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3. guiding is pretty good, last night running well below 0.4" but occasionally when I first start up guiding DEC will run a bit wide back and forth. About 10 minutes or so. Recalibrating and starting over tends to clear that up. I am not manipulating any settings. I also fuss over the DEC worm. I am using machine tools to measure how much back off the worm gets and try to reliably tension the spring holding it down.

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Anyway, things like that. If anyone has any tips on using this mount with the AIR I would love to hear them. I do prefer to use NINA, PHD2 etc. most of the time but sometimes a simple setup is nice.

One other issue I forgot to mention.

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Very early this morning a run of four hours was over and I had set up "autorun" to move the mount to home after. It did not move at all.

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Then I slew to another object to get a few shots and it slewed on obviously the wrong side of the pier. Even hitting the limit on that side. Which software makes this choice? The Gemini or the Air?

With my air, usually start the mount, do a Cold Start, and then start the air and connect.? I use USB, by the way.??

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As far as guiding. I have never got numbers that low so can't give you much advice.? I will say it's very sensitive to calibration, and the Air will sometimes accept a wonky calibration.? ?So youbsre on the right track by re calibrating when guiding is strange.?

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For the go-to, those last few arc minutes of slew happen slowly.? You may not think the mount is moving, but it's going very slow to center up.? Just wait a few 10s of seconds.? I think you can also adjust the speed of those moves in the hand controller.??

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For homing...did you set the home position via the hand control or web interface???

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Also, mine will never confirm back to the air that it reached home.? For that reason, if I am doing more than one target in a night I will go directly between them instead of home in between.? ?

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I don't know how to directly answer your last question.? But my understanding is that the Air uses its location and time settings for the sky atlas.? Sends coordinates of the target to the mount, which then uses its location time and understanding of its current pointing to calculate the move.? So if it's going to the wrong side of the sky or pointing at the ground that usually means the time or location is wrong somewhere, or a clutch slipped or something where the mount is not physically pointing where the controller thinks it is.?

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Brian

On Thu, Aug 22, 2024 at 12:13 PM, Ed Harp wrote:

Which software makes this choice?

The ASIAIR issues commands, such as the Go-To X sequence, to which the mount responds according to the user-defined Limits. Objects only reachable on the East and West necessitate a Meridian Flip during Go-To slewing if approached from the opposite side. However, for objects in proximity to the Meridian, the necessity of a flip may vary based on the user's specified Limits.

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The movement as described suggests a limited limit overlap with the OTA initiating the slew on the West Side. Due to these limits, the target is only accessible on the East Side, yet close to the West Limit. Consequently, the mount flips to the East Side and starts tracking towards the West Limit. Shortly thereafter, it encounters this limit. Should the ASIAIR be in Autorun or Plan mode at that time, it may execute, if set, a Meridian Flip process in this vicinity, ceasing tracking and waiting for the target to drift before flipping. Otherwise, it would continue tracking to the limit, triggering the Limit alarm.

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Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.

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Just watched the Losmandy video on meridian flips. I will take a good look at the related limit settings. I will also target something crossing the meridian and do an autorun and see if it works. Seems to me the ASI app and the mount need to agree on the need to flip, or the goto issued after crossing the meridian won't change anything. Last night I was well past 90 on the west side, when it should have been on the east side,

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I use USB as well.

So I have a better understanding of the limits setting in Gemini. It seems that I need to take the western limit, say 100 degrees and whatever the western goto limit is set to is subtracted from that to determine when a flip will occur. ?If for example want the flip to happen right at the meridian and the western limit is 100, I would set the western goto limit to 10. 100 - 10 = 90, or at the meridian.

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In the air app, you set the number of minutes past the meridian when the air will attempt a flip by issuing another goto on the target. This has failed for me because the default western limit was 123 and the default western goto limit was 2.5, which means the flip doesn't happen because the G11 doesn't flip until 123-2.5 = 120.5 or 30.5 degrees past the meridian.

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Sound right? I will next try a western limit of 100 and a western goto limit of 9 or 1 degree past the meridian, then tell the air app to flip at 5 minutes past the meridian, which should be 1.25 degrees past the meridian, which should be far enough to trigger the G11 to flip.

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Confusing. A setting called "how far past the meridian do you want me to flip" would make a lot more sense.

On Fri, Aug 23, 2024 at 08:10 PM, Ed Harp wrote:

Sound right?

Indeed, another consideration is that ASIAIR calculates the meridian position using the model-adjusted clock, whereas Gemini-2 gauges the limit's midpoint via the spirit level's state. Maintaining minor model time adjustments in Right Ascension (RA) helps keep the Limit points precise. As the Go-To Slew must occur reliably within the WGL.? Narrowly setting limit points requires an accurate level state. And the mechanics of long OTAs don’t allow wide settings.?

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An example I use for a long refractor:

Gemini-2 Limits;? East 93:00, West 93:00, WGL 5:00

ASIAIR MF;? Before Meridian 0, After Meridian 0

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For a C11 I could use a slightly more forgiving set:

Gemini-2 Limits;? East 98:00, West 95:00, WGL 8:00

ASIAIR MF;? Before Meridian 0, After Meridian 0

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These favor a small exposure outage during flip routine.

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Yours depends on the Optical Tube Assembly (OTA) in use, the tolerable delays during the meridian flip, and the number of acceptable Go-To retries following plate verification.

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Asi Air sets only a minutes BEFORE meridian to pause imaging.? Minimum value is 0.? You can't make it go past the meridian before pausing.?

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You then need to set your Minutes After delay to make sure it clears your Gemini limits, so when the air commands a go to it does the thing you want it to.?

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Brian

On Sat, Aug 24, 2024 at 08:22 AM, WayBack wrote:

Indeed, another consideration is that ASIAIR calculates the meridian position using the model-adjusted clock, whereas Gemini-2 gauges the limit's midpoint via the spirit level's state. Maintaining minor model time adjustments in Right Ascension (RA) helps keep the Limit points precise. As the Go-To Slew must occur reliably within the WGL.? Narrowly setting limit points requires an accurate level state. And the mechanics of long OTAs don’t allow wide settings.?

I appreciate your help.?

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So by spirit level, I would guess you mean the "CWD" position the mount knows after a cold start. I've gotten to doing things this way: set up the mount and ota, balance then level the mount base spirit levels, then the two in the RA and dec, then cold start the mount. I think of this as "home" for this mount.

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I am happy this mount worked out. It was frustrating at first. I wanted something made in this way (here, small company) that I could use with the air sometimes and finally after a bit of fuss (maybe a bad motor) I get very good guiding and reliable results.

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I like the tripod attachment design enough to make it my standard for all of my mounts and have scared up adapters where needed and adapted a Berlebach tripod to this as well. I still use the heavy Losamandy tripod, but it's a beast. You can see a large black steel knob under the tripod top plate. The one flaw I see in the Losmandy tripod design is you cannot roughly rotate the mount. I am used to having this with other mounts. So the Losmandy base plate is attached to the Berlebach with a big 1/2" bolt so that I can rotate the mount a bit if find I am off by say 5 degrees when I go to polar align. Mechanically I am fairly certain it will be reliable.

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On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 10:04 AM, Ed Harp wrote:

by spirit level, I would guess you mean the "CWD"

Yes, just some best practice thoughts. ?Aligning the four G11 mount spirit levels sets the mount into a mechanical position that corresponds with the initial Gemini-2 encoder position. ?The starting physical orientation of CWD and the corresponding controller state, a Cold or Warm Start, are synchronized through the encoder values. ?The simplest method involves setting the mount to CWD while powered off, and once Gemini-2 is powered on and passes the Cold Start, tracking begins. Other startup sequences just need to consider the end goal. ASIAIR expects the mount to be operational, similar to other controlled hardware, upon APP connection. If the startup process includes parking the mount, unpark afterwards for ASIAIR. Should the mount require Asmuth rotation for Polar Alignment, it now remain level to maintain accuracy with the encoders. Eventually, the mount will slew to the first bright star for sky alignment, which relies on the precision of CWD. Any movement disrupting the CWD's alignment with the encoders necessitates a return to the leveling process.? It's documented but seems to get lost in the details at times.

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On the Meridian Filp, that was about a behavior you noted.? The type of OTA and mount set up influences the use.? Scott's enhancements enable the mount to track for hours past the Meridian with the appropriate OTA, which can sometimes eliminate the need for a Meridian Flip.??While the behavior that ASIAIR uses, a Go-To depends on the characteristics of the mount.? If Gemini-2 has two positions it can reach a target, it always does a Go-To to the closest position. ?This can cause the topics to become interwoven.

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This involves the Limits.? As targets move across the sky, they also traverse over and past the mount's limit points. ?When using a Go-To function for a target on the West Side, ASIAIR requires the target to drift to a position accessible only from the East Side to perform a Meridian Flip. This position on the East Side becomes reachable only when the target moves beyond the EAST Limit and the start of the WGL Limit (the WEST minus WGL position). Both conditions are necessary for the flip.

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These criteria subsequently affect the limit parameters. If the OTA permits shooting beyond the Meridian, keep the ASIAR delay parameters at zero; it's all about the limits. If the OTA makes contact at or before the Meridian, then delays are necessary to meet the criteria. However, if your OTA target can bypass a Meridian Flip by continuing to track past the Meridian, then disabling it is another excellent option.

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This can also occur with equipment like a long refractor, where the camera cannot make contact at the northern leg latitudes. In such cases, with relaxed limits and exercising caution it’s possible to track through the meridian too.

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Doug

On Mon, Aug 26, 2024 at 08:05 AM, WayBack wrote:

On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 10:04 AM, Ed Harp wrote:

by spirit level, I would guess you mean the "CWD"

Yes, just some best practice thoughts. ?Aligning the four G11 mount spirit levels sets the mount into a mechanical position that corresponds with the initial Gemini-2 encoder position. ?The starting physical orientation of CWD and the corresponding controller state, a Cold or Warm Start, are synchronized through the encoder values. ?The simplest method involves setting the mount to CWD while powered off, and once Gemini-2 is powered on and passes the Cold Start, tracking begins. Other startup sequences just need to consider the end goal. ASIAIR expects the mount to be operational, similar to other controlled hardware, upon APP connection. If the startup process includes parking the mount, unpark afterwards for ASIAIR. Should the mount require Asmuth rotation for Polar Alignment, it now remain level to maintain accuracy with the encoders. Eventually, the mount will slew to the first bright star for sky alignment, which relies on the precision of CWD. Any movement disrupting the CWD's alignment with the encoders necessitates a return to the leveling process.? It's documented but seems to get lost in the details at times.

??

On the Meridian Filp, that was about a behavior you noted.? The type of OTA and mount set up influences the use.? Scott's enhancements enable the mount to track for hours past the Meridian with the appropriate OTA, which can sometimes eliminate the need for a Meridian Flip.??While the behavior that ASIAIR uses, a Go-To depends on the characteristics of the mount.? If Gemini-2 has two positions it can reach a target, it always does a Go-To to the closest position. ?This can cause the topics to become interwoven.

?

This involves the Limits.? As targets move across the sky, they also traverse over and past the mount's limit points. ?When using a Go-To function for a target on the West Side, ASIAIR requires the target to drift to a position accessible only from the East Side to perform a Meridian Flip. This position on the East Side becomes reachable only when the target moves beyond the EAST Limit and the start of the WGL Limit (the WEST minus WGL position). Both conditions are necessary for the flip.

?

These criteria subsequently affect the limit parameters. If the OTA permits shooting beyond the Meridian, keep the ASIAR delay parameters at zero; it's all about the limits. If the OTA makes contact at or before the Meridian, then delays are necessary to meet the criteria. However, if your OTA target can bypass a Meridian Flip by continuing to track past the Meridian, then disabling it is another excellent option.

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This can also occur with equipment like a long refractor, where the camera cannot make contact at the northern leg latitudes. In such cases, with relaxed limits and exercising caution it’s possible to track through the meridian too.

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Doug

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The Gemini CWD position is simply whatever servo position values are found when Gemini wakes up. A Gemini's initial sky model on boot up always thinks the mount RA axis is perfectly aligned with the NCP, the DEC axis is perpendicular to the RA axis and that the DEC's saddle position is @ 90 degrees. This is why unless the mount is very well polar aligned Gemini's initial GOTOs can be off by widely varying degrees all other setting being correct.? While it is not critical to have a level mount before polar aligning it makes polar alignment much faster and smoother which makes initial GOTOs more accurate which results in smaller correction values to the default sky model.? ?

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You can save some setup time by having previously set accurate CWD marks on the RA and carefully setting the DEC axis setting circles to 90 degrees and locking them in using the set screws in the DEC setting circle ring. With these marks established you use the built bubble levels in the mount base to level the mount and then set the mount to the premarked positions on the RA and set DEC to 90 using the setting circle ring and etched indicator. No need to go through the bubble level routine on the RA and DEC axes to establish a true CWD before powering up Gemini as it has already been set by using your preset marks.??

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BTW, never trust the bubble levels on any mount even a Losmandy mount unless you have verified them with a known good digital level or precision bubble level. I have had to replace several bubble levels in used Losmandy mounts I bought or repaired because the vials were no longer properly seated.?

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To be clear there are no encoders or position switches on Losmandy mount axes or worms. There are encoders integrated with DC motor axels which allow them to be used as servos but these are not normally used by software other than Gemini. This is not to say servo motor position data cannot be used by third party apps.??

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On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 07:04 AM, Ed Harp wrote:

I appreciate your help.?

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So by spirit level, I would guess you mean the "CWD" position the mount knows after a cold start. I've gotten to doing things this way: set up the mount and ota, balance then level the mount base spirit levels, then the two in the RA and dec, then cold start the mount. I think of this as "home" for this mount.

?

I am happy this mount worked out. It was frustrating at first. I wanted something made in this way (here, small company) that I could use with the air sometimes and finally after a bit of fuss (maybe a bad motor) I get very good guiding and reliable results.

?

I like the tripod attachment design enough to make it my standard for all of my mounts and have scared up adapters where needed and adapted a Berlebach tripod to this as well. I still use the heavy Losamandy tripod, but it's a beast. You can see a large black steel knob under the tripod top plate. The one flaw I see in the Losmandy tripod design is you cannot roughly rotate the mount. I am used to having this with other mounts. So the Losmandy base plate is attached to the Berlebach with a big 1/2" bolt so that I can rotate the mount a bit if find I am off by say 5 degrees when I go to polar align. Mechanically I am fairly certain it will be reliable.

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I LOVE my Berlebach Planet!? But I wouldn't want to ruin the black finish by rotating the MA on top to get your mount aligned! You can cut a circle out of a thin sheet of polyethylene to protect the base and make rotation easier.?

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On Mon, Aug 26, 2024 at 02:05 PM, Chip Louie wrote:

I LOVE my Berlebach Planet!? But I wouldn't want to ruin the black finish by rotating the MA on top to get your mount aligned! You can cut a circle out of a thin sheet of polyethylene to protect the base and make rotation easier.?

I actually disassembled the tripod and machined the top to provide a relatively precise hole for the 1/2" bolt and a smooth flat surface for the Losmandy base plate to rest on. The anodization on the Losmandy base plate will prevent any galling. I happen to have a cnc machine shop in my garage.?

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Level wise, I do have precision levels. Not sure how I would use them here. I think I get the idea from you two and I really appreciate your advice.

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And speaking of modeling, I wondered if my mount just needed breaking in a bit when I was having issues with it so I used TheSkyX to run several 160+ target TPoint models. About an hour or slewing each time. It seemed to do well and I seemed to be getting good tracking. I won't be using that regularly.

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I also want to try PemPro.

On Mon, Aug 26, 2024 at 02:57 PM, Ed Harp wrote:

On Mon, Aug 26, 2024 at 02:05 PM, Chip Louie wrote:

I LOVE my Berlebach Planet!? But I wouldn't want to ruin the black finish by rotating the MA on top to get your mount aligned! You can cut a circle out of a thin sheet of polyethylene to protect the base and make rotation easier.?

I actually disassembled the tripod and machined the top to provide a relatively precise hole for the 1/2" bolt and a smooth flat surface for the Losmandy base plate to rest on. The anodization on the Losmandy base plate will prevent any galling. I happen to have a cnc machine shop in my garage.?

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Level wise, I do have precision levels. Not sure how I would use them here. I think I get the idea from you two and I really appreciate your advice.

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And speaking of modeling, I wondered if my mount just needed breaking in a bit when I was having issues with it so I used TheSkyX to run several 160+ target TPoint models. About an hour or slewing each time. It seemed to do well and I seemed to be getting good tracking. I won't be using that regularly.

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I also want to try PemPro.

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Hi!

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You skimmed the top face of the Berlebach tripod head? Wow, you are brave. Having a machine shop you could also make a large diameter ball bearing turntable to make rotating the fully loaded mount easy to rotate during PA but I like the simpler, cheap slippery plastic disc route. Might as well have a slick smooth surface to rotate that mini pier head on.?

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The idea is to use the precision levels to ensure that the built-in bubbles on the Losmandy base are true. If not you have to dig them out along with the white caulk and clean off the milled seats of any debris to seat the new vials in full contact with the seats. I have checked a few and they have all been true when checked against the base flange seating face so I trust the seats to be parallel with the base seating surface. Invert the base, seat the new vials and caulk them in place and let it cure fully before touching your work. 24 hours later off you go with known good bubbles in the base.??

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Regarding breaking in the drivetrain, others with new mounts have commented on this and it seems sometimes running them in for a few hours improves them as far as PE and smoothness. Some have not seen this but I think they may not have run them in long enough to see it. I bought a new GM8G from Losmandy in the second year of Covid and just set the mount to exercising at a slewing speed for a week one direction then the other on both axes. But in all honestly that new GM8G worked very well from the get go even before I had it doing 360's for a week straight LOL. So in my case it didn't seem to work either. Who know???

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How I finally got to decent performance is a mystery because I was trying many things at once. I'm pretty sure replacing the one motor is what fixed it, but I haven't been motivated to mount the suspect motor again to confirm this.

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So far as the top of the tripod goes, I machined a round surface and coated it with just a touch of crystalline wax. Not a lubricant but just a mild protectant. I'd rather have solid metal contact there to be honest. A turntable would be fancy, but not necessary and just more moving parts that might have play in them.

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The mount continues to behave well with the ASIAir, so simple setup. I've been shooting very wide mosaics of the milky way and just want to spend 20 minutes setting up, then let it run for the night. Shooting with a 50mm Zeiss macro lens. I also use a 100mm. These lenses produce very clean, very flat images, surprisingly so. This is a 100% crop of Deneb shot at 100mm, ASI2600MC. Reminds of stars through mirrored telescopes.

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Hi,

Some great and practical advice!

I am helping a friend set up his recentlypurchased ASIAir Plus and G11 w Gemini2 (which I sold him). What is the proper sequence to startup and get connected and ready to do a Go To. Assume the mount has been levelled and is polar aligned. I always liked Cold Start w CWD:

--- Everything powered off:

--- ASIair physically connected via printer cable to Gemini2 control box.

--- Mount is in CWD position.?

--- ASIair App (on Galaxy S9 turned off)

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If the ASIair will not recognize the USB connection to the mount, then what should I try? Change the power up order?

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When I had the mount, I used Serial to USB with FTDI, and it connected to my laptop nicely. I think there was a FTDI driver. Is this a back up option to try?

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Any other option, ie LAN? Many thanks for your advice!

Roger

This is the control box:

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On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 10:11 PM, Roger Smith wrote:

Hi,

Some great and practical advice!

I am helping a friend set up his recentlypurchased ASIAir Plus and G11 w Gemini2 (which I sold him). What is the proper sequence to startup and get connected and ready to do a Go To. Assume the mount has been levelled and is polar aligned. I always liked Cold Start w CWD:

--- Everything powered off:

--- ASIair physically connected via printer cable to Gemini2 control box.

--- Mount is in CWD position.?

--- ASIair App (on Galaxy S9 turned off)

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If the ASIair will not recognize the USB connection to the mount, then what should I try? Change the power up order?

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When I had the mount, I used Serial to USB with FTDI, and it connected to my laptop nicely. I think there was a FTDI driver. Is this a back up option to try?

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Any other option, ie LAN? Many thanks for your advice!

Roger

This is the control box:

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Hi Roger,

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I have always used the Ethernet ports to talk to the Gemini 2 for imaging and planetarium app use so I just found a way to keep using Ethernet connections when I switched to the ASIAIR years ago pre-COVID.??

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This is not hard to do but you do need to configure the Gemini 2 and ASIAIR specifically to do this. But it is well worth it as you will be able to use GFU and have network access to the Gemini 2 mSD card file system. There are also a lot of control through the web UI which gives you a acess to everything in the Gemini 2 which you don't even know about without it.?

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Using the Ethernet port also frees up one USB port on the ASIAIR which on a full house system are always going to be in short supply especially with the new CAA (camera angle adjuster) coming out shortly.? If like most folks your friend will be or is planning to run a full ZWO imaging system with ASIAIR , EAF, EFW, ASI autoguider and ASI cooled imaging camera? ?means there will not be enough ports to plug everything into the ASIAIR if you want to use the CAA and an external USB SSD/Flash drive. Unless of course there is a USB hub built into the new CAA.?

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So looking forward if you can set your friend's Gemini 2 to use Ethernet for command and control this is a big help and supposedly allows for better mount performance.? This is what the people who wrote the software have said all along anyway. I can't confirm it, as long as I have had a Gemini 2 I have used the G2 Ethernet port for communication.??

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The way I do it is simple. I use a small high-end travel router and plug the Gemini 2 and ASIAIR into the switch ports of the router.? The best small routers with the newish WiFi6? 803.11AX standard AND at least 2 or 3 Ethernet ports with full 1Gbs Ethernet are the GL.iNet travel routers. I am using the Slate-AX model as it has the best specs and includes a third Ethernet port. It is very a very fast WiFi router if you are near the router, faster than wired Ethernet. If you have a phone that is less than 5 years old you probably have WiFi6 and can take advantage of this much faster WiFi standard.

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These days I am no longer waiting at all any more for the data to move between the ASIAIR and the phone with this setup, focusing, preview downloads from the ASI2600MC Pro take longer to process on the ASIAIR than to download. But it wasn't always the case, in fact it was SLOW.? But at least the WiFi connection was not failing every 2 minutes.?

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I have seen the screen responsiveness improve as download speeds increased.? I kept upgrading as newer WiFi technology came out for nano and travel routers and I moved from the router I hung off the Gemini 2 for WiFi access and bridge routing to my home mesh LAN to needing to overcome the terrible ASIAIR WiFi which requires additional 1Gbs Ethernet ports at the mount router.? At the time there was no such thing as a multi port travel router so I used a 4-port mini 1G/100/10 switch to add the required ports. I went from the?

150Mbs 802.11n TP Link nano router>

300Mbs 802.11n TP Link nano router >

433Mbs 802.11ac TP Link travel router >

433Mbs 802.11ac Slate with 3X 1Gbs ports>

867Mbs 802.11ac Beryl with 3X 1Gps ports>

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The speed improvement I have seen is very significant. But you really have to have a newer phone with Wi-Fi 6 to take advantage of the technology. You can verify what Wi-Fi your phone has in the settings pages.?

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Let me know if you need any more advice or screen shots for configuration of the Gemini 2, ASIAIR and Slate-AX router.?

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Hi Chip Louie,

Your reply is very useful, especially where you have all the router performance results.?

I do need to answer in a different direction because of my situation.

The purchaser is pretty new to astrophotography and scopes, etc. His depth is not such that he will learn how to connect via a router, and he will have little understanding of additional things to do inside Gemini2. You can say he is the perfect ASIair candidate... plug and play. Of course I do not have the Losmandy mount any more, and just want him to get started, ie functioning connection.

So thank you very much.?

I am going to repost my above original message as a new topic to see if I can get a clear answer about USB.

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Thanks,

? ?Roger

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