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On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 06:26 AM, Mark Christensen wrote:
Paul,
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You may be right about the price difference going down but, frankly, I doubt it will: Absolute axis encoders are a niche within a niche.
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We always have to remember that the market for astronomy products at the consumer and educational (as opposed to research) end is only about $300M per year. That's nothing: A single 777 costs that much. And according to some market studies, nearly 50% of that market is controlled by one company now: Celestron. The point being that the chances of reaching economies of scale, which is what it would take to drop the price down, is very low.
?
Other indicators of the small size of the market are that when Sky and Tel was sold it barely drew $3M. And it only took a $18M court judgement to kill Meade this last time and for Orion to buy them.
And then Orion went under. Numbers like $3M and $18M are peanuts.
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My hats really off to people like Losmandy, OpTech Inc, AstroPhysics, and Planewave for having the guts to set up businesses for such a small market composed all too often of nitpicky customers.
I continue to be amazed at how many people launch small companies in this market. We're all lucky they do.?They must really love what they are doing.
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Best regards,
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Mark C
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Mark,
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We already have cheap absolute encoders, we use them in many devices.? The problem is they are small and lack significant resolution, they are bit limited.? The cost of absolute encoders capable of the resolution, a minimum of 23 bits, and accuracy we need will never get that cheap, they are too hard to make.? I also think you are also right about the amateur astronomy market bing small.? I think it may get even smaller as people get squeezed financially, think tariffs, and the fact that cheap instant gratification seems to be what people want.?
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Nobody these days seems to appreciate the journey is at least half the fun of any hobby worth doing.??Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just saying.??
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I mean if I couldn't play with the mount control electronics on my workbench, buy and play with all the imaging gear, play with CAD prototyping and outputting to my DIY Trident 3-D printer, build editing computers for post capture processing etc. and the countless hours I spend on-line kvetching about it astronomy would be as frustrating and troublesome to me as it is to all the people who can't figure out why they don't see the pretty pictures on the box in the eyepiece of their shiney new $400 40mm telescope.? ? ? ?
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--
Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?
Astrospheric Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?
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On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 04:35 AM, Astrophoto_Andy wrote:
And on to of that Mark, is an exceptionally nice person as well!?
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Andy Weeks
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There's no proof of that what so ever.??
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Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?
Astrospheric Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?
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And on to of that Mark, is an exceptionally nice person as well!?
Andy Weeks
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On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 06:15 AM, Mark Christensen wrote:
Chip,
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Thanks for the complement but this old dog is pushing 80.
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But I'm still able to operate a model makers, manual feed lathe, fix a CNC router, build and program OnStep systems, program in PIC assembler
along with C, and write a Windows 11/ASCOM 7-compatible driver for the older (pre-2009 sale of the company) FeatherTouch Focusers in C#/Visual Studio.
?
It's been 12 years since I've made a parabolic mirror so that era is at an end for me. But mechanical and electrical/software stuff is
still with my capacity for a few more years.
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Cheers,
?
Mark C.
NFW!
--
Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?
Astrospheric Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?
?
?
?
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Paul,
?
You may be right about the price difference going down but, frankly, I doubt it will: Absolute axis encoders are a niche within a niche.
?
We always have to remember that the market for astronomy products at the consumer and educational (as opposed to research) end is only about $300M per year. That's nothing: A single 777 costs that much. And according to some market studies, nearly 50% of that market is controlled by one company now: Celestron. The point being that the chances of reaching economies of scale, which is what it would take to drop the price down, is very low.
?
Other indicators of the small size of the market are that when Sky and Tel was sold it barely drew $3M. And it only took a $18M court judgement to kill Meade this last time and for Orion to buy them.
And then Orion went under. Numbers like $3M and $18M are peanuts.
?
My hats really off to people like Losmandy, OpTech Inc, AstroPhysics, and Planewave for having the guts to set up businesses for such a small market composed all too often of nitpicky customers.
I continue to be amazed at how many people launch small companies in this market. We're all lucky they do.?They must really love what they are doing.
?
Best regards,
?
Mark C
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Chip,
?
Thanks for the complement but this old dog is pushing 80.
?
But I'm still able to operate a model makers, manual feed lathe, fix a CNC router, build and program OnStep systems, program in PIC assembler
along with C, and write a Windows 11/ASCOM 7-compatible driver for the older (pre-2009 sale of the company) FeatherTouch Focusers in C#/Visual Studio.
?
It's been 12 years since I've made a parabolic mirror so that era is at an end for me. But mechanical and electrical/software stuff is
still with my capacity for a few more years.
?
Cheers,
?
Mark C.
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On 3/17/2025 10:11 PM, Chip Louie via groups.io wrote: Sky-Watcher makes a mount in the 100-lb class called the EQ8. The base model, without?tripod, is about $5.3K here in the USA today.
Who knows about the future? The same model with absolute axis encoders is $9.475K. The encoders are from Renishaw, as very
well respected industrial supplier. Good, so they advertise, to 0.1 arc seconds.
That's a price difference of $4.175K for the encoder feature, to what end? I doubt that price differential will remain so forever. In the mean time, after spending quite a bit of effort investigating (and in most cases addressing) the sources of tracking inconsistency and DEC backlash in my GM811, I'm pretty sure that basic things like higher machining tolerances and ESPECIALLY better bearing design and execution would result in a better performing and more consistent mount at a much lower cost than adding today's high precision absolute encoders. That said, if absolute encoder cost can be addressed, that would be a "one size fits all" solution for many design and machining ills. Or the unpredictable and difficult to guide movement of today's strain wave mounts. Paul -- Paul Goelz Rochester Hills, MI USA pgoelz@... www.pgoelz.com
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On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 08:59 AM, Mark Christensen wrote:
I violently agree with Chip on this one. To me, high resolution absolute axis encoders are just the latest example of Astro-Bling.
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To reinforce his point on the cost issue here is a concrete example:
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Sky-Watcher makes a mount in the 100-lb class called the EQ8. The base model, without?tripod, is about $5.3K here in the USA today.
Who knows about the future? The same model with absolute axis encoders is $9.475K. The encoders are from Renishaw, as very
well respected industrial supplier. Good, so they advertise, to 0.1 arc seconds.
?
That's a price difference of $4.175K for the encoder feature, to what end?
?
Plus, to this old man absolute encoders, USB hubs, or GPS modules integrated into a mount are just something else that can break.
As the sage said "Someday everything will need to be maintained".
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If I want to know the coordinates of an object precisely I'll use?the Blind Astronomy Solver.
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Mark Christensen
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Mark,
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WOW!? Violently?? I've had people get violent with me but until now nobody has VIOLENTLY agreed with me!? LOL!? ?
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At retail 5 years ago a Renishaw solid 100mm encoder ring and a pair of readheads and the matching electronics cost about $3.5K PER axis.?
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I didn't think you were old Mark.??
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--
Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?
Astrospheric Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?
?
?
?
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I violently agree with Chip on this one. To me, high resolution absolute axis encoders are just the latest example of Astro-Bling.
?
To reinforce his point on the cost issue here is a concrete example:
?
Sky-Watcher makes a mount in the 100-lb class called the EQ8. The base model, without?tripod, is about $5.3K here in the USA today.
Who knows about the future? The same model with absolute axis encoders is $9.475K. The encoders are from Renishaw, as very
well respected industrial supplier. Good, so they advertise, to 0.1 arc seconds.
?
That's a price difference of $4.175K for the encoder feature, to what end?
?
Plus, to this old man absolute encoders, USB hubs, or GPS modules integrated into a mount are just something else that can break.
As the sage said "Someday everything will need to be maintained".
?
If I want to know the coordinates of an object precisely I'll use?the Blind Astronomy Solver.
?
Mark Christensen
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Very nice Moon!?
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There are those in the OnStep group who are fascinated with very high resolution encoders.? They want to have a feed back loop that will deal with any inaccuracies that that creep into the step motor drive systems. Step motors are usually spec'ed at +/-0.05-0.09°. But these errors occur randomly and when your microstep rate is 13,653 a second they tend to cancel each other out. Nevertheless, they persist, and have found a PC mouse encoder that is fairly cheap that they are playing with. IF anyone wants to play along the thread is here:
Ultra high DPI mouse as RA sensor:
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Currently, I believe they are using a 32bit ESP32S running at 2.4mHz to process their signals, but I stopped following the discussion a while ago.? Those of us with one foot in the grave don't have time for this. I've got too many graves to piss on.
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On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 10:46 AM, Paul Kanevsky wrote:
I used the Askar 151 (1052mm) quad element refractor with an ASI2600MC camera.? The supporting G11G works portably well with this assembly (~32 pounds on the saddle).
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The lighting during the full eclipse does have a different quality!??
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On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 01:27 PM, WayBack wrote:
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On topic, without encoders the Moon in eclipse from last night.? (I'm sure there exists better, this shot is mine.)
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Doug,
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Looks very realistic, the same as I would expect to see in the eyepiece of a good telescope. What optics/camera did you use to take the shot?
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Wayback,
Never underestimate the challenges in getting a good image of a Lunar Eclipse.
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On 15 Mar 2025, at 4:27?am, WayBack <corey_d@...> wrote:
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On topic, without encoders the Moon in eclipse from last night.? (I'm sure there exists better, this shot is mine.)
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On topic, without encoders the Moon in eclipse from last night.? (I'm sure there exists better, this shot is mine.)
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I tend to agree with you agree with you Chip - the cost of the encoders is pretty darn steep and the number of takers would likely be low. ? If folks do insist on having high res axis encoders then I guess they are probably going to look at 10-Micron or AP at costs north of about 10k or more. ? Given that a G11 and Gemini combo can deliver approx. 1 arc-seconds RMS tracking error … ? PS Ganymede subtends about 1.5 arc-seconds as seen from here. ? ? D. ? ? ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Chip Louie via groups.io
Sent: 13 March 2025 20:56
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] Encoders, yes or no?? On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 03:48 AM, David C. Partridge wrote: As would some other folks, but you have to convince Scott Losmandy to do that.? Ideally this would require a new generation of Gemini (Gemini-3?) with the necessary additional hardware and firmware to talk to the absolute encoders.?? I think it would also be possible to create a smallish additional box that would allow them to be used with the Gemini-2.??? He’d also need to supply the hardware to me as it is likely that I’d end up developing the firmware to support the encoders. ? Adding absolute encoders to an existing mount would be a major exercise involving disassembly of the mount and quite a bit of precision machining. ? So, if it were ever offered, I suspect it would have to be with a new version of the mount, as for most people the cost of shipping the mount back to Losmandy, paying for the work and dealing with the complication of international customs such that you only pay tax/duty on the upgrade charges when it is shipped back to you.?? In the current “trade war” those charges could be huge. ? Please don’t discuss the politics here. ? David?
The problem is not actually building a Losmandy mount with absolute encoders, I have no doubt that Losmandy could design and produce such a mount.? The problem is getting enough people to buy the resulting mount as the cost would be quite high.? Even if you simply added an RA axis encoder ring and the double read heads needed to get the required resolution your talking about doubling the cost of a G11G just for the all new mount hardware design BEFORE you get to the all new controller hardware and new version firmware you will need to run the G11G+Absolute Encoder mount.? So would you pay nearly $8,000 for a 65 pound payload mount with absolute encoder RA?? Would you pay $10,000 for a dual axis absolute encoder mount that did not need guiding for the commonly used short subframe imaging we use today?? I don't think so because in reasonably skilled hands, modern autoguiding on current model G11G mounts is already good enough to produce excellent images for most sub 2,000mm focal length optics.? Not to mention that with all the money you saved you could buy an entire second imaging rig.? ? ??
Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?
Astrospheric Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?
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On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 03:48 AM, David C. Partridge wrote:
As would some other folks, but you have to convince Scott Losmandy to do that.? Ideally this would require a new generation of Gemini (Gemini-3?) with the necessary additional hardware and firmware to talk to the absolute encoders.?? I think it would also be possible to create a smallish additional box that would allow them to be used with the Gemini-2.??? He’d also need to supply the hardware to me as it is likely that I’d end up developing the firmware to support the encoders.
?
Adding absolute encoders to an existing mount would be a major exercise involving disassembly of the mount and quite a bit of precision machining.
?
So, if it were ever offered, I suspect it would have to be with a new version of the mount, as for most people the cost of shipping the mount back to Losmandy, paying for the work and dealing with the complication of international customs such that you only pay tax/duty on the upgrade charges when it is shipped back to you.?? In the current “trade war” those charges could be huge.
?
Please don’t discuss the politics here.
?
David?
?
The problem is not actually building a Losmandy mount with absolute encoders, I have no doubt that Losmandy could design and produce such a mount.? The problem is getting enough people to buy the resulting mount as the cost would be quite high.? Even if you simply added an RA axis encoder ring and the double read heads needed to get the required resolution your talking about doubling the cost of a G11G just for the all new mount hardware design BEFORE you get to the all new controller hardware and new version firmware you will need to run the G11G+Absolute Encoder mount.?
?
So would you pay nearly $8,000 for a 65 pound payload mount with absolute encoder RA?? Would you pay $10,000 for a dual axis absolute encoder mount that did not need guiding for the commonly used short subframe imaging we use today?? I don't think so because in reasonably skilled hands, modern autoguiding on current model G11G mounts is already good enough to produce excellent images for most sub 2,000mm focal length optics.? Not to mention that with all the money you saved you could buy an entire second imaging rig.? ? ??
?
--
Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?
Astrospheric Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?
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On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 02:20 PM, Chip Louie wrote:
and how it will be used.?
Exactly, practical use of the mount won't improve with more encoders than those already present, unless some use case warrants this.? And most use cases were covered with Gemini.? Given its age and enhancements, it's why it so remarkable.
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On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 06:06 AM, WayBack wrote:
Some time ago Gemini and the digital servo made the few remaining advantages for absolutely encoders impractical.?
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Not really.? The servos just use encoders for the motor position which may or may not be well related to the actual shaft positions.? For real-time position data you need to look at shaft/axle position which the servo motors cannot actually know.?
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Absolute encoders on the shafts are absolutely possible, I have the 311,000 tic encoders on two mounts right now for use with Nexus DSC and Sky Safari.? To get serious sub arc second resolution gets very expensive depending on how much resolution and how it will be used.??
?
--
Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?
Astrospheric Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?
?
?
?
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Some time ago Gemini and the digital servo made the few remaining advantages for absolutely encoders impractical.?
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As would some other folks, but you have to convince Scott Losmandy to do that.? Ideally this would require a new generation of Gemini (Gemini-3?) with the necessary additional hardware and firmware to talk to the absolute encoders.?? I think it would also be possible to create a smallish additional box that would allow them to be used with the Gemini-2.??? He’d also need to supply the hardware to me as it is likely that I’d end up developing the firmware to support the encoders. ? Adding absolute encoders to an existing mount would be a major exercise involving disassembly of the mount and quite a bit of precision machining. ? So, if it were ever offered, I suspect it would have to be with a new version of the mount, as for most people the cost of shipping the mount back to Losmandy, paying for the work and dealing with the complication of international customs such that you only pay tax/duty on the upgrade charges when it is shipped back to you.?? In the current “trade war” those charges could be huge. ? Please don’t discuss the politics here. ? David
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of jim.bachesta via groups.io
Sent: 12 March 2025 17:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] Encoders, yes or no?? I use my? upgraded 2010 Losmandy G11G for imaging. The wish list would be to improve guiding using absolute encoders.? If my understanding is correct, the E port on the Gemini-2 is not designed to support that.? With that said, I would pay the dollars to add absolute encoders and placing this on the Gemini-2 road map would be fantastic.
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Chip Louie
Astrophoto_Andy
Paul Kanevsky
David C. Partridge