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This week I updated to L6, and tonight was my first night out. Immediately I encounter an odd error that I previously had when I first got my mount. This was best emphasized in N.I.N.A. when I attempted to slew to M81 through the framing tool. First I start getting this error "DEC coordinate is invalid or inaccessible". To be honest I was messing around so much I do not know what I changed that got rid of this error.? But what came next has me perplexed, and this is what I was experiencing when I first got my mount:

So M81 is RA 09 & DEC +69 (per Cartes du Ciel). In Framing tool NINA reports the same. But what NINA slews to is this: Cartes is showing the cursor right over M81, yet plate solving is way off. Better yet it does slew to correct and I get this: And it goes right back to where it started and? I restarted Gemini multiple times, even did "Reset SRAM to Factory Defaults". I went to Gemini site and double checked my address to get the coordinates
Latitude & Longitude:
45:03:52 ? -94:02:40
From the mount:
Longitude ? ?-94°02'40
Latitude ? ?+45°03'52

I even tried messing with the time zone offset changing from -5 to -6. This was the problem I had when I first got the mount. I would slew to a target and I would be off as if my time was off my 3-4 hours. Stranger still when I slewed to M101 up around Meridian at this time, my telescope was pointing south when, as if my location was off. Another strange sign was when I slewed to Alp Lyr which was about 35 degrees yet the telescope started to slew as if it was something odd like 5 degrees altitude. I do have a NTP server, and it does appear to sync. The mount currently reports accurately the time from the web UI.?

One thing to note that I do not believe would have been a factor. I did get the side by side but I don't see how that would have affected anything except if some weird bug in new L6 firmware when rotating DEC.??

Are you building a model first???

I would think the side-by side would make a huge difference, as it introduces a HUGE cone error (optical axis not in line with the mechanical axis).? ? If I'm thinking of the wrong 'side by side' or there is a way to correct the cone error mechanically (I can't visualize how that would work) then ignore me.?

-Brian

On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 08:13 AM, BBasiaga wrote:

Are you building a model first???

Short answer no, long answer is I don't think I ever did build one. I had always thought the mount having accurate location + time + plate solving was all I needed. And for 3 years that has been the case. I kind of remember looking at this when I first got the mount, but can't remember how far I went with it. To be? honest I always thought modeling was more for visual use. Like I said, I had this issue when I first got the mount, maybe then was when I looked at doing model. Eventually Brian V sent me a firmware revision that when updated it resolved this first time out, and I never had this problem again until now.?

My problem seems like, in my amateur view, the mount's coordinates are not correct even though settings show everything correct. NINA shows my target as RA 09 & DEC 69, Cartes du Ciel shows M81 at same coordinates. I slew to M81, Cartes shows I am at M81. Plate solving however shows me at DEC 49, it then slews to correct this but is almost pointing the telescope back to Polaris (yet it says on this 2nd attempt to plate solve that I am at 09:25:10 RA!).?

I should also add, I did have a few nights using the side by side plate BEFORE doing the L6 update. I did get a guide on the steps to balance using dual telescopes. I had zero problem using the side by side.?

You should build the pointing Model and retest.

------------------------
Jim W
Phoenix, AZ. USA

Losmandy G11G w/ L6, NINA 3.0 / ASTAP, ASI2600MC Pro, Sky-Watcher Scopes, Canon L Lenses.

On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 06:13 AM, BBasiaga wrote:

Are you building a model first???

I would think the side-by side would make a huge difference, as it introduces a HUGE cone error (optical axis not in line with the mechanical axis).? ? If I'm thinking of the wrong 'side by side' or there is a way to correct the cone error mechanically (I can't visualize how that would work) then ignore me.?

-Brian

For an equatorial mount you can visualize cone error by looking at the mount from either the west or east side of the mount. An EQ mount with no cone error will have the telescope optical axis perpendicular (90 degrees) to the DEC axis. If there is any deviation from this the telescope's optical axis will travel along a different arc than the arc traveled by the mount RA axis. This is what is called cone error.?

I routinely load the G11G with a Losmandy side-by-side dovetail with a pair of matching Losmandy 8" single clamp saddles. I use an ADM MAX Guider ALT/AZ aiming device in the right saddle to align both OTAs perfectly. In the left saddle I usually have the bespoke Parallax/AT130mm f/6 SDT with the usual full ZWO ASIAIR imaging system or occasionally a M10" LX200 f/6.3 SCT with the same imaging rig. In the right saddle I usually have a scope setup for visual use, usually the Takahashi FC-100DL, Takahashi FS-60Q or M8" LX200 f/10 ACF SCT. I've never seen any cone error that I can detect if they are correctly aligned.??
? ?
A side-by-side mount that is well made should not introduce any cone error if made correctly and is stiff enough to resist the bending forces placed on it as the mount moves the payload throughout its travel.?
??

--

Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?

? ?Astrospheric Weather Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?

Make sure you do at least one Align or Sync after you start the model.? To check if plate solve is misbehaving, try doing a goto to a known bright star without doing plate solves. If you see it in near or in FOV after a goto, but plate solution tells you that you are far off -- you need to troubleshoot the plate solver configuration.

Regards,

? -Paul

The side-by-side I bought was the Losmandy DVSBS, and I followed this guide to balance - I had at least 3 nights out with this before clouds came, and I decided to upgrade to L6. Each night out I encountered no errors, and guiding was pretty good (especially considering I did not have the clearest of skies to guide with).

I understand what people are saying by suggesting I do a model. My concern is that the error is just too far off. Another thing I want to point out. I had been shooting M101 after a few hours of M81 the previous evenings. Around 11PM M101 was right at the Meridian. I slewed to it (via NINA) to see what would happen. The results were troubling. In my Skyshed POD I have a good clear view of M101 from East to West. However this time the telescope was pointed southward.?

The behavior is more like the mount's location & time (regardless of what is configured) is not being used.

This might be a silly question but, how are you starting the mount? Are you using cold start? With CWD and both scopes pointing north?
also, have you tried resetting to factory defaults? Maybe there is some setting you didn’t migrate after the upgrade to level 6? Recheck the mount type on the HC just to be on the safe side ;)

good luck

On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 04:04 PM, Sean wrote:

The side-by-side I bought was the Losmandy DVSBS, and I followed this guide to balance - I had at least 3 nights out with this before clouds came, and I decided to upgrade to L6. Each night out I encountered no errors, and guiding was pretty good (especially considering I did not have the clearest of skies to guide with).

I understand what people are saying by suggesting I do a model. My concern is that the error is just too far off. Another thing I want to point out. I had been shooting M101 after a few hours of M81 the previous evenings. Around 11PM M101 was right at the Meridian. I slewed to it (via NINA) to see what would happen. The results were troubling. In my Skyshed POD I have a good clear view of M101 from East to West. However this time the telescope was pointed southward.?

The behavior is more like the mount's location & time (regardless of what is configured) is not being used.

I know you think the Gemini 2 controller has been correctly configured but everything you are saying indicates there is a time and coordinate error. If the Gemini 2 wakes up and knows where it is on one side of the pier after you do a single star alignment on that side of the pier the issue sounds more like NINA or ASCOM is updating the time and location data without your knowledge. I have not used NINA in quite sometime but this sounds like a commonly heard complaint by NINA and Gemini users. Do a search here and maybe on CN and see what you find. It is usually some checkbox that allows an application or ASCOM to update Gemini data.?
?
--

Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?

? ?Astrospheric Weather Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?

On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 07:50 PM, Chip Louie wrote:

I know you think the Gemini 2 controller has been correctly configured but everything you are saying indicates there is a time and coordinate error. If the Gemini 2 wakes up and knows where it is on one side of the pier after you do a single star alignment on that side of the pier the issue sounds more like NINA or ASCOM is updating the time and location data without your knowledge. I have not used NINA in quite sometime but this sounds like a commonly heard complaint by NINA and Gemini users. Do a search here and maybe on CN and see what you find. It is usually some checkbox that allows an application or ASCOM to update Gemini data.?

When you connect to the mount with NINA it will prompt you if the settings do not match, and I can select to either use the mounts or NINA's settings. Now you may be on to something here.?

• When I connect NINA I get error "The mount's clock differs from the computer clock by 73959 seconds...", that is 20 hour difference.??
• Web UI State: UTC Date (dd.mm.yyyy): ? 20.05.2024 UTC Time: 01:51:46 which is correct ( UTC: Monday, May 20, 2024 at 1:51:27 am ? Minneapolis (USA – Minnesota) ? ?Sunday, May 19, 2024 at 8:51:27 pm ? ?CDT ? ?UTC-5 hours)
• NTP server tested. Set time to 20:42. After change was set I hit NTP Query button and it updated to 20:46 (which was time Windows on my screen). I did login to the server running NTP (Chrony) and checked, time is accurate.

So hand controller, web UI all show "correct" time. On a whim I opened ASCOM Device Hub and connected the Gemini mount. I then connected to Device Hub in NINA and did NOT get the error. I disconnected and then reconnected and this time NINA did not throw an error about the time difference. Next chance to see and test won't be until Wednesday if I am lucky.

On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 07:04 PM, Sean wrote:

On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 07:50 PM, Chip Louie wrote:

I know you think the Gemini 2 controller has been correctly configured but everything you are saying indicates there is a time and coordinate error. If the Gemini 2 wakes up and knows where it is on one side of the pier after you do a single star alignment on that side of the pier the issue sounds more like NINA or ASCOM is updating the time and location data without your knowledge. I have not used NINA in quite sometime but this sounds like a commonly heard complaint by NINA and Gemini users. Do a search here and maybe on CN and see what you find. It is usually some checkbox that allows an application or ASCOM to update Gemini data.?

When you connect to the mount with NINA it will prompt you if the settings do not match, and I can select to either use the mounts or NINA's settings. Now you may be on to something here.?

• When I connect NINA I get error "The mount's clock differs from the computer clock by 73959 seconds...", that is 20 hour difference.??
• Web UI State: UTC Date (dd.mm.yyyy): ? 20.05.2024 UTC Time: 01:51:46 which is correct ( UTC: Monday, May 20, 2024 at 1:51:27 am ? Minneapolis (USA – Minnesota) ? ?Sunday, May 19, 2024 at 8:51:27 pm ? ?CDT ? ?UTC-5 hours)
• NTP server tested. Set time to 20:42. After change was set I hit NTP Query button and it updated to 20:46 (which was time Windows on my screen). I did login to the server running NTP (Chrony) and checked, time is accurate.

So hand controller, web UI all show "correct" time. On a whim I opened ASCOM Device Hub and connected the Gemini mount. I then connected to Device Hub in NINA and did NOT get the error. I disconnected and then reconnected and this time NINA did not throw an error about the time difference. Next chance to see and test won't be until Wednesday if I am lucky.

You have to pick a time and location reference and propagate these reference points across ALL apps and devices. IDK if you are connected to the internet when you are imaging but if you are you should pick a single NTP server and use it across all apps and hardware. The Gemini can sync on an NTP server if you provide an IP for Gemini to sync on. Of course this only works for those using an Ethernet connection that occasionally gets on the internet. Just pick one and use it across all devices and apps.

IDK how NINA works with respect to UTC but if you can use UTC the Gemini will be very happy to use it as the time reference. I use UTC and offset -0 when using the GM8G visually with a planetarium app and the Gemini GOTO works great. With the ASIAIR on the G11G I have no choice but to use local time and it is always off by one hour but it works fine. The GOTOs commanded by the ASIAIR to the G11G are always almost perfectly centered and plate solving to center works 100% reliably even with the wrong time for some reason. But this is a known issue with ASIAIR that has been there since the beginning and never resolved.??

Try turning off everything that automatically reads and populates time and location data. If you can set the time and location manually for everything. I think it can be done but it only works if carefully configured and you understand what impacts what when.

Keep us posted on what you learn, especially if you figure it out!? ??

--

Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?

? ?Astrospheric Weather Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?

On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 10:51 PM, crocco1250 wrote:

Chip

I've used the adm adapter but find it's limited in the weight it can handle. There are springs in the adapter that can shift. Have you noticed that shift and, if so, how did you correct it? Memory sez max 20 lbs.

Chuck

?

Hi Chuck!?

There are a few different versions of the ADM ALT/AZ aiming device, the Mini-MAX, the MAX, the MAX-HD and Robin Casady design TGAD. After using the TGAD for a while I bought the MAX Alt/Az because the MAX is so much smaller and lighter than the TGAD or MAX-HD and didn't seem to have any downside for my use under 20 pounds. The MAX and MAX-HD are basically the same design but the saddle and base bars are longer on the MAX-HD.? I have used the MAX with a 25 pound payload and it is harder to adjust precisely & quickly but to me the difference was minor. Other than the MAX-HD being a little easier to adjust with a near max payload IME there is no reason to put up with the additional weight and bulk of the MAX-HD. For portable use the extra length is a deal breaker in terms of bulk, weight and storage needs.?

As far as the payload overcoming the springs that is not the way these devices are designed to work. These mounts use a push-pull arrangement to adjust the ALT and AZ positions and do not in anyway rely on springs to hold the saddle payload in place. There is a pivot on both axis and one screw is pushing against the other which locks the pivoting plates in place. I don't know what you plan to drop in the ALT/AZ aiming device saddle but I have used well over 20 pounds with no issues. The MAX ALT/AZ device I have has a Losmandy "D" dovetail on the bottom which I drop into a Losmandy S-B-S mount. You can buy them pretty cheap if you buy the original "D" only saddle version which is all I use these days anyway.? ?

--

Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?

? ?Astrospheric Weather Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?

The problem continues even with doing a model. I started the evening by going to Vega which was clearly the most visible star. Used by guide scope to center it and synched. Next I did I think Arcturus. When slewing to Vega I was way off, but manually slewing got me there. Important to note that later on I was able to slew back to Vega. Cartes du Ciel also confirmed I was at Vega. In the end of the night I slewed to Vega, took image in NINA and plate solved to confirm I was in the ballpark.?

Now again the problem, I open M81 in framing, and select slew to target. Again same errors. Off by 20 degrees dec, then to correct the mount does not seem to correct the error but slews way off to almost Polaris, then rinse and repeat over and over and over. Just can never correct.? Next I tried to go to M101 from within Cartes. Plate solving showed me way off. Same thing over and over, just can not get to the target.?

Would putting back my old SD card do anything? I can now live without Level 6, I just want a working mount. Do I need to send this into Losmandy for service? If I put in my old SD card, that still needs to write to the firmware correct?

Sean,

This sounds more like you have a corrupted or incorrect file somewhere. My suggestion would be to download the L6 and new hand controller files again and use the GFU to upload them again to your Gemini. You can always go back to the L5 and original HC files if you want for comparison. The Gemini 2 has two SD cards, on in the Gemini unit and another in the hand controller. If you are connected via Ethernet to your PC, you shouldn't need to physically remove them with the latest GFU. You could reseat them however just to be sure of proper contact with the leads.

Good luck.

John
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Losmandy G11G2 on pier; refurbed Losmandy G11 with OnStep controller; SkyShed design roll-off observatory; ZWO ASI2600MM-P; ZWO ASI071MC; Sky-Watcher Esprit 100 ED with field flattener; Celestron C925 Edge HD with 0.7XFR, William Optics Zenithstar 61 APO; PHD2, Sequence Generator Pro and PixInsight user

I just used GFU to flash it again for v6.0.2. One button I did not touch, the "Format SD card". Wondering if I should have done that as well??

On a side note, last night I had problem with my Pegasus power box connection so I rebooted Windows. Upon reboot, Gemini no longer works and can no longer connect to the mount via any application. It is almost as if I was cursed or something. I have a laptop I can use to test this the re-flash again, but still adding problems to problems is no way to go through life.

It seems like you have a very basic configuration issue or corrupted data files in the Gemini 2. Maybe the format option would help but also maybe try resetting the microSD card in the socket before you do that. The microSD cards seem to make poor contact, have dirty contacts or get unseated easily and can give odd results sometimes. While I have not seen it others have posted this and a resetting the microSD cards has resolved the problem.? ?

--

Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?

? ?Astrospheric Weather Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?

Sean,

After reloading the L6 ware, have you rechecked that the IP address in the HC is still what it was before? This can get reset to defaults and you may need to re-enter. Then go to your Network settings and check the Ethernet IPV4 settings match. Did you also check if you can connect vis USB?

Good luck.

John
--
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Losmandy G11G2 on pier; refurbed Losmandy G11 with OnStep controller; SkyShed design roll-off observatory; ZWO ASI2600MM-P; ZWO ASI071MC; Sky-Watcher Esprit 100 ED with field flattener; Celestron C925 Edge HD with 0.7XFR, William Optics Zenithstar 61 APO; PHD2, Sequence Generator Pro and PixInsight user

On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 06:15 AM, John Kmetz wrote:

After reloading the L6 ware, have you rechecked that the IP address in the HC is still what it was before? This can get reset to defaults and you may need to re-enter. Then go to your Network settings and check the Ethernet IPV4 settings match. Did you also check if you can connect vis USB?

After re-loading the firmware through GFU I did reboot, and even powered cycled the mount. Upon reload the network settings did not change. I have a static IP set, along with gateway, DNS, and NTP. I did look at the /CONFIG/Gemini.cfg and everything seems to match my prior config pre-L6 (old SD card was saved).?

I did try to select "Gemini expects J2000 co-ordinates". Whether that is checked or not did not matter, but it would be good to know if I should leave that checked.?

On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 08:22 AM, Sean wrote:

I did try to select "Gemini expects J2000 co-ordinates". Whether that is checked or not did not matter, but it would be good to know if I should leave that checked.?

With L6 this shouldn't matter when used with NINA. Either way should work. The setting may be needed with other ASCOM software that do not automatically adjust for the configured precession.