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Re: Needle bearings and axial play, is this a significant performance problem and how difficult is it to fix?

 

Peter,?

Glad you were able to make a solid connection between motor and worm. McMaster is a super supplier and you can find a whole lot of specialty bearings connectors, gears, etc. I have used them many times before. I looked at those flex couplers before but couldn't find the right size to fit into the standard arrangement with the tucked motors like I have. I was a bit concerned about the low torque ratings on this type of spiral cut aluminum, and also whether they hold up at temperatures below freezing.?

I did buy a few flex couplers like these months ago:??which are similar to the Oldham couplers Losmandy uses, but haven't had the chance to test them out yet. They are supposed to be very low backlash and you can buy separate halves for the different shaft diameters.? The one draw back is that the center disc readily pulls away from the shaft caps unless the shafts are rigidly held in place, nothing to hold the assembly together other than locked position.?

Replacing the Oldham coupler must result in lowering the overall backlash of the gearing, and lessen the total guiding error as well all seek :).

JK


Re: At some point, I may begin commenting on the G11 DEC axis...

 

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 08:58 AM, <pcboreland@...> wrote:
You can set the step size on he brain/algorithm form. Default is 500ms.
I set the step size smaller, but it uses 500ms anyway.
For TVC, I used 10, which is what I derived from the G8 axis.? I didn't change it when I upgraded to the G11, but from the backlash test, at large excursions there is almost no hysteresis lag, so this value is about right.


Re: Needle bearings and axial play, is this a significant performance problem and how difficult is it to fix?

 

What I meant was that our methods determined a TVC value for the gear backlash only.? This part is generally fixed and doesn't depend of sky location, gravity, temperature, etc.? I don't have an opinion on using extra TVC to take out worm backlash too.? I encourage you to keep increasing the value until "something bad happens".


Re: Needle bearings and axial play, is this a significant performance problem and how difficult is it to fix?

 

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 02:19 PM, alan137 wrote:
Both our methods (laser or allen wrench)? use TVC to remove all the gear backlash BEFORE it gets to the worm.? There is additional backlash between the worm and ring gear (including ring gear eccentricity), and this is the part that varies due to all those factors mentioned.

?

?
Allen,

I have to quibble with you here. TVC does not just remove the gear backlash (I assume you mean gearbox), it removes all the backlash including the worm "mesh" backlash. Did I understand correctly what you said?

For others reading this thread, ring gear eccentricity is a valid point. I hand rotated my ring gear 360 degrees by hand winding the worm and found one small spot where I felt I had a different level of rotational resistance. I made sure this area was not within the operating area of the Dec axis. Previous to my open worm setup, I could? feel high/low pressure situation for each worm rotation. This I took as periodic-error/alignment problem. When I strapped the 1/4" aluminum bar between the bearing blocks it went away. Now this is the old worm design and the OPW does not suffer from this problem as far as I can tell. Also, if you have the old worm you may have the bearing blocks that are silver underneath. These are a different specification the the new blocks. Specifically, the round insert portion on the left hand block is under 3/8" and wobbles in the hole. This is obviously going to lead to big problems. Further, the new block are a little larger and do not fir into the old cover plate, hence why I had no choice in going to an open worm design, which prove fortuitous as I learned a lot from having access to the entire assembly while in operation.

Peter


Re: Needle bearings and axial play, is this a significant performance problem and how difficult is it to fix?

 

>> So the long and short of it is my TVC value is equivalent to 20 in regular parlance.?

yes, that sounds about right :)



On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 2:29 PM pcboreland via <pcboreland=[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks guys! I suppose I could have looked this up but I was lazy.? This makes a lot of sense and 8x guiding rate for the adjustment is not quite instantaneous, but probably good enough. I hope folks don't too envious of me having ?5x more integers to work with, a tick in favor of smaller step sizes. ? So the long and short of it is my TVC value is equivalent to 20 in regular parlance.?

Peter



--
Brian?



Brian Valente
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Re: Needle bearings and axial play, is this a significant performance problem and how difficult is it to fix?

 

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 11:04 PM, John Kmetz wrote:
Also I am not sure how you are replacing the Oldham coupler with a rigid Allen screw attached one, as shown. Unless the motor shaft and worm are really tightly axially centered and parallel, the set screws would probably loosen over time, or start grinding a depression into the shafts. Or the motor shaft or worm shaft would move around instead. This connection must need a Oldham coupler, flex shaft or universal joint of some type to allow for the differences.?
John,

The whole reason why I am testing with a rigid coupler is to ensure that the worm and motor shaft are axially aligned as much as possible. But, as you say, there is a potential problem here. If the worm and motor are not axially aligned by even a small amount something has to give, and it will be the motor. It will bob up and down relying on the spring action of the McLennan motor plate. This is a bad situation, so once the worm is set I loosen off the motor screws to make sure things are self aligned before retightening. In the case of Ra, which is spring loaded, the left side worm block acts as a pivot point, so there is the possibility of things not staying precisely aligned. Thus far, I've not seed any movement in the motor once set, but I have seen a very significant reduction in the native 240s worm error. At this point I have no PEC, but my guided 240s error is under 0.2 arc-sec. There is a coupler I could use that allows some flex. Part number:?

It's quite expensive so one could do it a different way:??plus??In this arrangement one needs to drill and tap though the bushing and get slightly longer set screws. The coupler may be a tight fit because its 5/8" diameter. If I had not spent so much money on couplers already I would likely just go straight for?
With that said I'm unlikely to rework the Ra at this point as things are really working well.?

Peter


Re: Needle bearings and axial play, is this a significant performance problem and how difficult is it to fix?

 

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 05:29 PM, <pcboreland@...> wrote:
I hope folks don't too envious of me having ?5x more integers to work with, a tick in favor of smaller step sizes. ??
You only have up to TVC value of 255 you can set. You may just run out of integers ;)


Re: Needle bearings and axial play, is this a significant performance problem and how difficult is it to fix?

 

Thanks guys! I suppose I could have looked this up but I was lazy. ?This makes a lot of sense and 8x guiding rate for the adjustment is not quite instantaneous, but probably good enough. I hope folks don't too envious of me having ?5x more integers to work with, a tick in favor of smaller step sizes. ? So the long and short of it is my TVC value is equivalent to 20 in regular parlance.?

Peter


Re: Needle bearings and axial play, is this a significant performance problem and how difficult is it to fix?

 

Paul,
Thank you for confirming the TVC speed (8x). I could not find it anywhere except an old post which stated 20x which did not match my measurements.

Eric


Re: Needle bearings and axial play, is this a significant performance problem and how difficult is it to fix?

 

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 11:20 AM, <pcboreland@...> wrote:

I cannot quite get my head around why the pointing position should affect backlash, unless something is shifting, which I already went into previously with regard slop in the needle bearings. We have here a gimble with a balanced load for Dec, the worm/ring gear should not care what position it's in? Perhaps one here could explain this?
Both our methods (laser or allen wrench)? use TVC to remove all the gear backlash BEFORE it gets to the worm.? There is additional backlash between the worm and ring gear (including ring gear eccentricity), and this is the part that varies due to all those factors mentioned.


Re: Needle bearings and axial play, is this a significant performance problem and how difficult is it to fix?

 

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 04:05 PM, Cyclone wrote:
According to the Gemini serial commands, the TVC value is measured in encoder steps, programmable from 0 to 255. If your step size is 5 times smaller, your TVC value will be 5 times larger for the same absolute backlash.
Exactly. TVC value is the number of encoder steps to take at 8x the guiding speed. The smaller the encoder step, the larger the TVC value required to compensate for the same amount of backlash.

Regards,

? ? ?-Paul


Re: Needle bearings and axial play, is this a significant performance problem and how difficult is it to fix?

 

Peter,
According to the Gemini serial commands, the TVC value is measured in encoder steps, programmable from 0 to 255. If your step size is 5 times smaller, your TVC value will be 5 times larger for the same absolute backlash.


Eric


Best result with new mount so far

 

Hello all

After getting my new G811G last month, I had some trouble with the random slews and trying to configure PHD2 to get better results with guiding, but things are working pretty well now. This graph is from last night's session, and show the HFR for each shot (the green line with white dots on top) and the average?RMS for guiding on the yellow lines. Of course there are the occasional wind gusts throwing things off but on average the results?are very good.? This has been a constant view in my sessions after i fixed the issues above and balanced my mount well.

Given that my imaging setup nas 1.43 arcsec/px, i can say the results are pretty good! Here is my last image, the Cygnus Wall in NGC 7000:





Hope you guys enjoy!

Guilherme


Re: Price check for CG11 with Gemini 2

 

I'm in the market for a second mount. I posted an add yesterday in Astromart. But I"m really only wanting the head, no tripod, controller, etc. Please feel free to PM me.?


Re: Needle bearings and axial play, is this a significant performance problem and how difficult is it to fix?

 

Brian,

Tomorrow is a clear night and I'll run some PHD2 backlash tests to confirm my bench results one way or the other. The value of 100 I determined to cancel out the backlash seems to be at odds with your experience ?and others. Allan137 I know has looked in this issue in great detail. It may be my value is different because I have 32000 steps per worm cycle corresponding to 0.11 arc-sec per step, not 0.56 arc-sec per step in the case of you and Alan. Since I do not know the calculations behind TVC, and can only assume this to be significant. One thing is clear, I have far greater resolution in setting my TVC value.

I cannot quite get my head around why the pointing position should affect backlash, unless something is shifting, which I already went into previously with regard slop in the needle bearings. We have here a gimble with a balanced load for Dec, the worm/ring gear should not care what position it's in? Perhaps one here could explain this?

Peter


Re: Runaway slew while using PHD2

 

I had an issue that I traced down and fixed with PHD2 / Indi where phd's "stop guiding while slewing" didn't completely work. I believe that there may have been some guide commands in the buffers between phd2 and indi, and they got sent to the mount while slewing. I fixed it in the indi driver by ignoring any guide command while slewing. This has been checked in to the indi source for quite a while now so I don't expect to see this exact problem again. This is a different system than yours though so the problem may not be the same, but it could still be there. I was able to reproduce the issue almost 100% of the time by leaving guiding on without the check in phd2 and issuing a slew command. You may want to give that a try to figure out what the issue is. Just stand beside it and be ready to turn it off or stop the mount after the slew. If it is the problem then you'll always have to stop guiding before slewing, and ascom may need the same fix as indi.?

Jamie


Re: Needle bearings and axial play, is this a significant performance problem and how difficult is it to fix?

 

Hi Peter

Real world results are what matters, so if a production mount guides best with a TVC value of 0, 5, 50, or 5,000, and we can replicate that and demonstrate it delivers the best results for everyone, totally happy to update our recommendation.?

It's simple to determine a good TVC value regardless of what anyone thinks it should be or how you arrived at it: Guide with it across the sky. If the guided results are good and there's no oscillation introduction, that's a solid?and usable TVC. If there is oscillation (either generally or in specific parts of the sky), adjust TVC until oscillations are removed (i would not describe this as arbitrary). This is true whether or not you use auto backlash compensation (and we do recommend using it, although it's not required), since you have DEC reversals when guiding. Bench testing is fine (and we've done that with production mounts), but guiding under the sky is where it gets put to the test. I'd be really interested to hear your results when you do this.?

Having done these guiding tests on at least half dozen losmandy production mounts, TVC values above 50 (i'm being very conservative here: it was more like 20-30) would result in oscillations,?even with backlash adjustment disabled. When methodically testing and adjusting TVC values in this way, we arrived at workable ones with the best results. If your modified mount TVC is 100+ and guiding works with that value, then great.?

>>>If gravity plays a role then it is likely due to the needle bearing problem I outlined in earlier postings.

I analyze guidelogs for the PHD forum, probably several hundred a year. The phenomenon of dec backlash amount changing with sky position is nearly universal for equatorial mounts and quite easy to see in the guidelogs.? I am not familiar with other manufacturer mount design details, but I think it would be very curious if all other mounts exhibiting this had exactly the same design here. I've included the PHD documentation excerpt as well here that illustrates the recommendation from PHD (the bolding inline is mine)

The adaptive backlash feature of PHD is a great approach to automatically refining backlash compensation. If the backlash is consistent? (as you maybe are suggesting?) there's no?penalty to using it. If it varies, it will automatically improve your backlash results.


Brian

?

Declination Backlash Compensation

Most commonly-used mounts have some amount of backlash in declination.? This causes a delay whenever there is a change in direction of the Dec guide commands.? During this interval, the declination gears aren't fully engaged and the axis doesn't move in response to the guide commands.? Many mounts have settings for backlash compensation but these should not be used for guiding - they are typically intended for visual use only. ?Because the actual amount of compensation needed at any given time may depend on the pointing position and the mechanical load on the system, a fixed value will usually result in oscillations that never stabilize. ?The backlash compensation implemented by PHD2 is adaptive, meaning that the compensation amount is adjusted up or down depending on the measured results.? Before enabling this feature, you should run the Guiding Assistant and measure the declination backlash - the time delay required to fully reverse direction in declination.? Keep in mind, the higher the guide speed setting in the mount (e.g. 0.9x sidereal), the smaller this delay will be.? If the measured amount is 3 seconds or less, the Guiding Assistant will recommend trying backlash compensation.? If you apply that recommendation, the backlash compensation settings will be handled for you automatically.? The UI controls for backlash compensation include settings for 'minimum' and 'maximum' compensation amounts.? These effectively limit the range of the adjustments that are made to the starting compensation value.? If you're experienced with your mount's behavior, you can adjust these settings manually to be sure that the compensation stays within a range that you know works well.? Otherwise, you should just leave these at their default values.? The backlash compensation algorithm will generally work well if the backlash is less than a few seconds and the mount doesn't have other significant mechanical problems.? You should expect a short period of? instability when guiding starts because the initial state of the Dec gear system is unknown - just let it stabilize before you actually start imaging.? If you see recurring periods of Dec oscillation or the axis won't settle down, disable the compensation feature and submit your debug log file to the PHD2 support forum.? It's important to note that the correct amount of Dec backlash compensation will often change depending on the scope pointing position.? This can be caused by uneven gear wear on the Dec axis or by differences in the gravitational load being applied to the axis.


On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 1:57 PM pcboreland via <pcboreland=[email protected]> wrote:
Brian,

As a representative of the manufacturer I appreciate that you responded to my two posts, but I would ask that you please read them carefully as you are in part providing your customers with I feel incorrect/imprecise information.? The backlash was measured via the Allen key method outline previously and did not involve PHD2.

If gravity plays a role then it in likely due to the needle bearing problem I outlined in earlier postings. I.e. Shifting of the Dec Axis due to a slop in the needle bearings sure to the weight and position of the scope. The shaft is out of spec for these bearings. These bearings where designed to be pressed into place. When done correctly the bearing ID is reduced slightly. The bearings are a light press (Scott himself has said as much). I pressed them in with my fingers! The shaft needs to be exactly 1.25". Mine is 0.004 to 0.006 under size this makes a big difference.?

Did you read read my explanation for how PHD2 works? Yes it does issue a single large pulse when reversing compensation, but it takes that amount of time to take effect. It does not matter if it dynamically adjusts through the night or session to session. It's irrelevant. If the backlash reversal pulse is longer than the guide imaging rate you have a big problem. This will undoubtably lead to instability within PHD2.

Lastly, you absolutely do not want to use a conservative value for TVC, you want to use the correct value. What do I mean by that? For those who use auto focus there is a curve where the minimum point on the parabola is the point of focus. This is true of TVC. Too small a value and backlash remains. Too large and backlash increases but in a negative way, which no doubt leads to the instability you noted. I think it's your job to study this in a precise meaningfull way. Replace my Allen key with a timing circuit. This way you can precisely measure TVC as a function of backlash. I see no reason why thus is not a fixed function. I take your point about being conservative as you do not want to be on the wrong side of the parabola. But setting an arbitrary, often too small a value, makes no sense in my opinion.

Look the backlash problem in my setup was due the excessive pressure put on the thrust bearings. This resulted in too much force needed to move the ring gear. This in turn forced considerable pressure to build in the gearbox and coupler resulting an uncorrectable large backlash. This was resolved with new thrust bearings and determining the correct value for TVC. Until I built my open worm assembly, where I had access to the various elements, I struggled to understand what was really going on, and certainly did not appreciate how important TVC was to eliminating backlash.

Peter




--
Brian?



Brian Valente
portfolio


Price check for CG11 with Gemini 2

 

I'd advertised an older CG11 with the Gemini 2 upgrade on and despite lots of views, there haven't been any bites. I was wondering if this is just because of the lack of the OPWBs and brass worms, or my price was off for some other reason.


Re: New G11G guiding fixed and incredibly great but random DEC excursions.

 

Fantastic results David, congratulations, great images.? ?I will need to try PHD2 next time and see if that is better than Ekos where I got to about 0.6" total RMS last time.? This is with a 12" Newt of course, over 50 lbs total.? ?I guess what one can achieve also depends heavily on the seeing.


Re: New G11G guiding fixed and incredibly great but random DEC excursions.

 

Your screen shots have too large a scale on the guiding plots, so it's hard to make out anything.
Based on the guide logs, you have too much backlash compensation