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SURVIVORS of the War

Stefan Wisniowski #135 This is in response to the recent exchanges between Ed and Janie, both of which are well-meaning and both of which are partly right! Ed is right that the referenced Holocaust Museum website seems to be oriented towards Jewish survivors. Janie is right that it is open to all survivors of the Nazi-Soviet alliance. There are many ways to look at these things, depending where you are coming from. I am going to make a couple of statements but they are not meant so much to stimulate a debate, but rather to try to set a tone for this group and to progress the cause of the eastern Polish victims of Soviet aggression. Please bear with me and pardon the length of this response. In general, the Kresy-Siberia group is set up to be a mutually supportive and collaborative one promoting "Research, Remembrance and Recognition", and it is REPECTFULLY REQUESTED that members maintain that spirit in order to retain their membership. The question that Janie and Ed are debating is whether Polish survivors of Soviet persecution can and should be recognised and remembered at the Holocaust Museum in Washington. First of all it is a fact that they can. I wrote to them and asked directly if I could register my family who were persecuted by the Soviets in 1940-42, and they said yes and sent me registration forms. Here is a quote from their site: "the Registry defines a Holocaust survivor as anyone who suffered persecutions by Nazis and/or their allies as a result of the racial, political or ethnic policies from 1933 to 1945 and who survived the end of World War II: camp survivors, political prisoners, persons in hiding, refugees from territories under rule of Germany and its allies, as well as evacuees from territories which were occupied later, etc. Other victims of persecution by the Nazis and their allies... are also considered survivors" As you know, the Soviets were the allies of the Nazis in the destruction of Poland from 1939 to 1941. Second of all, and here is where I am expressing a personal opinion, I believe that the Polish survivors SHOULD be registered and recognised at the Holocaust Museum. Let me explain why. It is true that the U.S. Holocaust Museum is dominated by remembrance of Jewish victims. This is not surprising, as the Jews were a primary target of the Nazi genocide and drove the establishment of the museum. However, while it is normal to feel it unfair that Polish victims of the Nazis (and the Soviets) are not recognised in the same way as the Jewish victims are, the question is what to do about it and how to change that. I suggest that the best way to change this is for the Poles to take their place alongside the other victims and recognise their suffering together, rather than to avoid the established memorial centres as being "only for the Jews". The Holocaust Museum in Washington was set up by the American Government as THE institution to remember and recognise ALL victims of the Nazis and their allies. In the absence of a POLISH-ONLY HOLOCAUST MUSEUM, why not take advantage of the U.S. HOLOCAUST MUSEUM to recognise our families and their courage to survive the Soviets? Here's an idea that has fired my imagination! For the Registry's purposes, anyone displaced by the racial, political and ethnic policies of the Nazis or their allies who survived until the end of the war is considered a survivor. The Registry of Holocaust Survivors currently contains the names of over 115,000 survivors - most in the United States or Canada, although some from survivors who live in other countries. Imagine how public opinion would be shaped if we were to register the names of the over 100,000 Polish survivors of the Soviet Gulags who escaped through Persia with General Anders at the Holocaust Museum? Though we actually have tens of thousands of names and brief histories at the Hoover Institution, the only catch is that survivors need to fill out the registration themselves or be registered by their relatives. Okay, so that let's Irene at the Hoover off the hook! But what if the 50 members of this group registered their own family survivors as a start and we got the ball rolling on this recognition and remembrance thing? That would be hundreds of names. There are also spaces for 2nd and 3rd generation descendants of the Survivors (guys like me). In short, I would encourage all of us with WW2 Survivors in our families to take up our rightful place by going to and getting the form and registering them. (Forms are even available in Polish!) If somebody does not want to take up this right and opportunity, of course that is completely up to them. Kindest regards, -- Stefan Wisniowski Moderator, Kresy-Siberia QUOTE FROM www.ushmm.org/museum/council/mission.htm "The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is America's national institution for the documentation, study, and interpretation of Holocaust history, and serves as this country's memorial to the millions of people murdered during the Holocaust. The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution and annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary victims --- six million were murdered; Gypsies, the handicapped, and Poles were also targeted for destruction or decimation for racial, ethnic, or national reasons. Millions more, including homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war, and political dissidents also suffered grievous oppression and death under Nazi tyranny. The Museum's primary mission is to advance and disseminate knowledge about this unprecedented tragedy; to preserve the memory of those who suffered; and to encourage its visitors to reflect upon the moral and spiritual questions raised by the events of the Holocaust as well as their own responsibilities as citizens of a democracy." toggle quoted message Show quoted text From: "edtar" <edtar@...> Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:34:59 -0400 To: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS Dear Janie, when yoy say they are trying to include everyone you are talking about the holocaust museum/memorial. If you go to the web you referenced you will find it is for Jews. The registry is for the Jews. I am not a Jew and most if not all Kresy-Siberia members are non Jews and further they are mostly Christian Catholic/Orthodox/Unite Poles who were deported to the slave labor camps in the USSR or their descendants. There were very few Jews deported to Siberia. By the way, who were the Associates of the Gemans/Nazis???? Edward --- Original Message ----- From: jmicchelli@... To: Kresy-Siberia@... Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS Dear Ed, If you go to the web-site, you will see that they are trying to include EVERYONE WHO WAS AFFECTED BY THE NAZIS AND THEIR ASSOCIATES........ THAT INCLUDES MY FAMILY AS WELL AS YOURS..............AND IF THIS IS THE WAY TO GET RECOGNIZATION, SO BE IT.......... JANIE You have your wires crossed. Holocaust memerial is for Jews who were persecuted by the Germans. Kresy-Siberia is for all Polish citizens who were deported to Siberia and persecuted by the Soviets. Ed Tarchalski ----- Original Message ----- From: jmicchelli@... To: ":Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com ; "To:Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS Hi Stefan and other group members, A few months ago I wrote Stefan, to tell him that I was going to register my family at this site, it is at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, I did so just a few weeks ago, here is a click-on with more information. They are looking to document survivors of the Holocaust (this is not only for members of the Jewish community). Click here: Remembrance \| Registry of Holocaust Survivors <> The Registry defines a survivor as a person who was displaced, persecuted, and/or discriminated against by the racial, religious, ethnic, and political policies of the Nazis and their allies. In addition to former inmates of concentration camps and ghettos this includes, among others, refugees and people in hiding. Please help us to document survivors who are not yet registered by passing on information about this Registry. ---------- I think that a lot of the members in this group qualify as survivors, please take a few minutes and see if this is something you would do.
Krystine Tomaszyk All Messages By This Member #139 Stefan, I do congratulate you on your letter concerning the Holocaust Museum and especially your rational approach to the subject. I have only one question. The museum. Is it for the survivors of the Holocaust or the victims who have perished? I do not know very much about this mueum and would appreciate clarification. Regards, Krystine toggle quoted message Show quoted text ----- Original Message ----- From: Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...> To: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 12:30 AM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War This is in response to the recent exchanges between Ed and Janie, both of which are well-meaning and both of which are partly right! Ed is right that the referenced Holocaust Museum website seems to be oriented towards Jewish survivors. Janie is right that it is open to all survivors of the Nazi-Soviet alliance. There are many ways to look at these things, depending where you are coming from. I am going to make a couple of statements but they are not meant so much to stimulate a debate, but rather to try to set a tone for this group and to progress the cause of the eastern Polish victims of Soviet aggression. Please bear with me and pardon the length of this response. In general, the Kresy-Siberia group is set up to be a mutually supportive and collaborative one promoting "Research, Remembrance and Recognition", and it is REPECTFULLY REQUESTED that members maintain that spirit in order to retain their membership. The question that Janie and Ed are debating is whether Polish survivors of Soviet persecution can and should be recognised and remembered at the Holocaust Museum in Washington. First of all it is a fact that they can. I wrote to them and asked directly if I could register my family who were persecuted by the Soviets in 1940-42, and they said yes and sent me registration forms. Here is a quote from their site: "the Registry defines a Holocaust survivor as anyone who suffered persecutions by Nazis and/or their allies as a result of the racial, political or ethnic policies from 1933 to 1945 and who survived the end of World War II: camp survivors, political prisoners, persons in hiding, refugees from territories under rule of Germany and its allies, as well as evacuees from territories which were occupied later, etc. Other victims of persecution by the Nazis and their allies... are also considered survivors" As you know, the Soviets were the allies of the Nazis in the destruction of Poland from 1939 to 1941. Second of all, and here is where I am expressing a personal opinion, I believe that the Polish survivors SHOULD be registered and recognised at the Holocaust Museum. Let me explain why. It is true that the U.S. Holocaust Museum is dominated by remembrance of Jewish victims. This is not surprising, as the Jews were a primary target of the Nazi genocide and drove the establishment of the museum. However, while it is normal to feel it unfair that Polish victims of the Nazis (and the Soviets) are not recognised in the same way as the Jewish victims are, the question is what to do about it and how to change that. I suggest that the best way to change this is for the Poles to take their place alongside the other victims and recognise their suffering together, rather than to avoid the established memorial centres as being "only for the Jews". The Holocaust Museum in Washington was set up by the American Government as THE institution to remember and recognise ALL victims of the Nazis and their allies. In the absence of a POLISH-ONLY HOLOCAUST MUSEUM, why not take advantage of the U.S. HOLOCAUST MUSEUM to recognise our families and their courage to survive the Soviets? Here's an idea that has fired my imagination! For the Registry's purposes, anyone displaced by the racial, political and ethnic policies of the Nazis or their allies who survived until the end of the war is considered a survivor. The Registry of Holocaust Survivors currently contains the names of over 115,000 survivors - most in the United States or Canada, although some from survivors who live in other countries. Imagine how public opinion would be shaped if we were to register the names of the over 100,000 Polish survivors of the Soviet Gulags who escaped through Persia with General Anders at the Holocaust Museum? Though we actually have tens of thousands of names and brief histories at the Hoover Institution, the only catch is that survivors need to fill out the registration themselves or be registered by their relatives. Okay, so that let's Irene at the Hoover off the hook! But what if the 50 members of this group registered their own family survivors as a start and we got the ball rolling on this recognition and remembrance thing? That would be hundreds of names. There are also spaces for 2nd and 3rd generation descendants of the Survivors (guys like me). In short, I would encourage all of us with WW2 Survivors in our families to take up our rightful place by going to and getting the form and registering them. (Forms are even available in Polish!) If somebody does not want to take up this right and opportunity, of course that is completely up to them. Kindest regards, -- Stefan Wisniowski Moderator, Kresy-Siberia QUOTE FROM www.ushmm.org/museum/council/mission.htm "The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is America's national institution for the documentation, study, and interpretation of Holocaust history, and serves as this country's memorial to the millions of people murdered during the Holocaust. The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution and annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary victims --- six million were murdered; Gypsies, the handicapped, and Poles were also targeted for destruction or decimation for racial, ethnic, or national reasons. Millions more, including homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war, and political dissidents also suffered grievous oppression and death under Nazi tyranny. The Museum's primary mission is to advance and disseminate knowledge about this unprecedented tragedy; to preserve the memory of those who suffered; and to encourage its visitors to reflect upon the moral and spiritual questions raised by the events of the Holocaust as well as their own responsibilities as citizens of a democracy." From: "edtar" <edtar@...> Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:34:59 -0400 To: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS Dear Janie, when yoy say they are trying to include everyone you are talking about the holocaust museum/memorial. If you go to the web you referenced you will find it is for Jews. The registry is for the Jews. I am not a Jew and most if not all Kresy-Siberia members are non Jews and further they are mostly Christian Catholic/Orthodox/Unite Poles who were deported to the slave labor camps in the USSR or their descendants. There were very few Jews deported to Siberia. By the way, who were the Associates of the Gemans/Nazis???? Edward --- Original Message ----- From: jmicchelli@... To: Kresy-Siberia@... Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS Dear Ed, If you go to the web-site, you will see that they are trying to include EVERYONE WHO WAS AFFECTED BY THE NAZIS AND THEIR ASSOCIATES........ THAT INCLUDES MY FAMILY AS WELL AS YOURS..............AND IF THIS IS THE WAY TO GET RECOGNIZATION, SO BE IT.......... JANIE You have your wires crossed. Holocaust memerial is for Jews who were persecuted by the Germans. Kresy-Siberia is for all Polish citizens who were deported to Siberia and persecuted by the Soviets. Ed Tarchalski ----- Original Message ----- From: jmicchelli@... To: ":Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com ; "To:Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS Hi Stefan and other group members, A few months ago I wrote Stefan, to tell him that I was going to register my family at this site, it is at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, I did so just a few weeks ago, here is a click-on with more information. They are looking to document survivors of the Holocaust (this is not only for members of the Jewish community). Click here: Remembrance \| Registry of Holocaust Survivors <> The Registry defines a survivor as a person who was displaced, persecuted, and/or discriminated against by the racial, religious, ethnic, and political policies of the Nazis and their allies. In addition to former inmates of concentration camps and ghettos this includes, among others, refugees and people in hiding. Please help us to document survivors who are not yet registered by passing on information about this Registry. ---------- I think that a lot of the members in this group qualify as survivors, please take a few minutes and see if this is something you would do. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP + Research, Remembrance, Recognition +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Websites: + www.AForgottenOdyssey.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. + Send e-mails to: Kresy-Siberia@... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + To Subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: + Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@... AND + a message to Kresy-Siberia-owner@... + saying who you are and your interest in the group +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: + Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
Stefan Wisniowski #143 Hello Krystine, Thanks for your support. The Holocaust Museum is for the victims and for the survivors. The Registry of Survivors at the Museum is a special program which itself is only for those who survived (ie. did not die before the end of the war). As I understand it, the purpose of this registry was to recognise the people who were persecuted but managed to survive, and also perhaps to act as a kind of "finding" service tracing the whereabouts of the people who survived and were dispersed around the world. So in short, even if they are no longer alive now, anybody who lived through the war and were persecuted as described in my e-mail qualifies for registration. This would include all of "The Invited" children (and their guardians) who came to New Zealand after their escape from the Soviet labour camps. Regards, Stefan toggle quoted message Show quoted text From: "Krystine Tomaszyk" <tomaszkc@...> Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:26:01 +1300 To: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War Stefan, I do congratulate you on your letter concerning the Holocaust Museum and especially your rational approach to the subject. I have only one question. The museum. Is it for the survivors of the Holocaust or the victims who have perished? I do not know very much about this mueum and would appreciate clarification. Regards, Krystine ----- Original Message ----- From: Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...> To: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 12:30 AM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War This is in response to the recent exchanges between Ed and Janie, both of which are well-meaning and both of which are partly right! Ed is right that the referenced Holocaust Museum website seems to be oriented towards Jewish survivors. Janie is right that it is open to all survivors of the Nazi-Soviet alliance. There are many ways to look at these things, depending where you are coming from. I am going to make a couple of statements but they are not meant so much to stimulate a debate, but rather to try to set a tone for this group and to progress the cause of the eastern Polish victims of Soviet aggression. Please bear with me and pardon the length of this response. In general, the Kresy-Siberia group is set up to be a mutually supportive and collaborative one promoting "Research, Remembrance and Recognition", and it is REPECTFULLY REQUESTED that members maintain that spirit in order to retain their membership. The question that Janie and Ed are debating is whether Polish survivors of Soviet persecution can and should be recognised and remembered at the Holocaust Museum in Washington. First of all it is a fact that they can. I wrote to them and asked directly if I could register my family who were persecuted by the Soviets in 1940-42, and they said yes and sent me registration forms. Here is a quote from their site: "the Registry defines a Holocaust survivor as anyone who suffered persecutions by Nazis and/or their allies as a result of the racial, political or ethnic policies from 1933 to 1945 and who survived the end of World War II: camp survivors, political prisoners, persons in hiding, refugees from territories under rule of Germany and its allies, as well as evacuees from territories which were occupied later, etc. Other victims of persecution by the Nazis and their allies... are also considered survivors" As you know, the Soviets were the allies of the Nazis in the destruction of Poland from 1939 to 1941. Second of all, and here is where I am expressing a personal opinion, I believe that the Polish survivors SHOULD be registered and recognised at the Holocaust Museum. Let me explain why. It is true that the U.S. Holocaust Museum is dominated by remembrance of Jewish victims. This is not surprising, as the Jews were a primary target of the Nazi genocide and drove the establishment of the museum. However, while it is normal to feel it unfair that Polish victims of the Nazis (and the Soviets) are not recognised in the same way as the Jewish victims are, the question is what to do about it and how to change that. I suggest that the best way to change this is for the Poles to take their place alongside the other victims and recognise their suffering together, rather than to avoid the established memorial centres as being "only for the Jews". The Holocaust Museum in Washington was set up by the American Government as THE institution to remember and recognise ALL victims of the Nazis and their allies. In the absence of a POLISH-ONLY HOLOCAUST MUSEUM, why not take advantage of the U.S. HOLOCAUST MUSEUM to recognise our families and their courage to survive the Soviets? Here's an idea that has fired my imagination! For the Registry's purposes, anyone displaced by the racial, political and ethnic policies of the Nazis or their allies who survived until the end of the war is considered a survivor. The Registry of Holocaust Survivors currently contains the names of over 115,000 survivors - most in the United States or Canada, although some from survivors who live in other countries. Imagine how public opinion would be shaped if we were to register the names of the over 100,000 Polish survivors of the Soviet Gulags who escaped through Persia with General Anders at the Holocaust Museum? Though we actually have tens of thousands of names and brief histories at the Hoover Institution, the only catch is that survivors need to fill out the registration themselves or be registered by their relatives. Okay, so that let's Irene at the Hoover off the hook! But what if the 50 members of this group registered their own family survivors as a start and we got the ball rolling on this recognition and remembrance thing? That would be hundreds of names. There are also spaces for 2nd and 3rd generation descendants of the Survivors (guys like me). In short, I would encourage all of us with WW2 Survivors in our families to take up our rightful place by going to and getting the form and registering them. (Forms are even available in Polish!) If somebody does not want to take up this right and opportunity, of course that is completely up to them. Kindest regards, -- Stefan Wisniowski Moderator, Kresy-Siberia QUOTE FROM www.ushmm.org/museum/council/mission.htm "The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is America's national institution for the documentation, study, and interpretation of Holocaust history, and serves as this country's memorial to the millions of people murdered during the Holocaust. The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution and annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary victims --- six million were murdered; Gypsies, the handicapped, and Poles were also targeted for destruction or decimation for racial, ethnic, or national reasons. Millions more, including homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war, and political dissidents also suffered grievous oppression and death under Nazi tyranny. The Museum's primary mission is to advance and disseminate knowledge about this unprecedented tragedy; to preserve the memory of those who suffered; and to encourage its visitors to reflect upon the moral and spiritual questions raised by the events of the Holocaust as well as their own responsibilities as citizens of a democracy." From: "edtar" <edtar@...> Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:34:59 -0400 To: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS Dear Janie, when yoy say they are trying to include everyone you are talking about the holocaust museum/memorial. If you go to the web you referenced you will find it is for Jews. The registry is for the Jews. I am not a Jew and most if not all Kresy-Siberia members are non Jews and further they are mostly Christian Catholic/Orthodox/Unite Poles who were deported to the slave labor camps in the USSR or their descendants. There were very few Jews deported to Siberia. By the way, who were the Associates of the Gemans/Nazis???? Edward --- Original Message ----- From: jmicchelli@... To: Kresy-Siberia@... Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS Dear Ed, If you go to the web-site, you will see that they are trying to include EVERYONE WHO WAS AFFECTED BY THE NAZIS AND THEIR ASSOCIATES........ THAT INCLUDES MY FAMILY AS WELL AS YOURS..............AND IF THIS IS THE WAY TO GET RECOGNIZATION, SO BE IT.......... JANIE You have your wires crossed. Holocaust memerial is for Jews who were persecuted by the Germans. Kresy-Siberia is for all Polish citizens who were deported to Siberia and persecuted by the Soviets. Ed Tarchalski ----- Original Message ----- From: jmicchelli@... To: ":Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com ; "To:Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS Hi Stefan and other group members, A few months ago I wrote Stefan, to tell him that I was going to register my family at this site, it is at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, I did so just a few weeks ago, here is a click-on with more information. They are looking to document survivors of the Holocaust (this is not only for members of the Jewish community). Click here: Remembrance \| Registry of Holocaust Survivors <> The Registry defines a survivor as a person who was displaced, persecuted, and/or discriminated against by the racial, religious, ethnic, and political policies of the Nazis and their allies. In addition to former inmates of concentration camps and ghettos this includes, among others, refugees and people in hiding. Please help us to document survivors who are not yet registered by passing on information about this Registry. ---------- I think that a lot of the members in this group qualify as survivors, please take a few minutes and see if this is something you would do. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP + Research, Remembrance, Recognition +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Websites: + www.AForgottenOdyssey.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. + Send e-mails to: Kresy-Siberia@... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + To Subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: + Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@... AND + a message to Kresy-Siberia-owner@... + saying who you are and your interest in the group +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: + Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP + Research, Remembrance, Recognition +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Websites: + http:/www.AForgottenOdyssey.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. + Send e-mails to: Kresy-Siberia@... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail to: + Kresy-Siberia-owner@... + saying who you are and your interest in the group +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to: + Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
[email protected] #154 Krystine, If you are referring to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, it's for the victims of the Holocaust, and their families. ?I have been there, and it is a wonderful Museum. ?There are memorials to those who were lost, and there are tributes from those who survived. ?There is a very large room, where a flame burns ALWAYS, and people go there to pray, or to meditate. ?Very quiet, hushed voices, a very moving place. ?There is another room, with an entire wall covered with 4 inch ceramic tiles, each painted by a child. ?These were done in schools all over the US (I think), and sent to the Museum. ?It is good to know that some schools are teaching about the Holocaust, and not trying to make it into a myth! ?The tiles are extremely touching. ?There are also tours, through the Museum, where you will see an actual cattle car, as well as full scale models of the huts where the prisoners lived. ?There are walls covered with photographs of those who died in the camps. ?And there is a wonderful exhibit of all those who helped the Jews are are now called "Righteous Among the Nations" ?That was the BEST place for me, since a relative is listed there! ?Unfortunately, I couldn't take any pictures, since they are forbidden. ?But I wanted so much to take a photo, and send it to her daughter! If you get a chance, I suggest you take the time to do the whole tour, it's quite educational. Jan Birkner ========Original Message======== *Subj: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War* Date: 10/17/01 4:17:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time From:? ? tomaszkc@... (Krystine Tomaszyk) Reply-to: Kresy-Siberia@... To:? ? Kresy-Siberia@... Stefan, I do congratulate you on your letter concerning the Holocaust Museum and especially your rational approach to the subject. I have only one question. The museum. Is it for the survivors of the Holocaust or the victims who have perished? I do not know very much about this mueum and would appreciate clarification. Regards, Krystine toggle quoted message Show quoted text ----- Original Message ----- From: Stefan Wisniowski To: Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 12:30 AM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War > This is in response to the recent exchanges between Ed and Janie, both of > which are well-meaning and both of which are partly right!? Ed is right that > the referenced Holocaust Museum website seems to be oriented towards Jewish > survivors.? Janie is right that it is open to all survivors of the > Nazi-Soviet alliance. > > There are many ways to look at these things, depending where you are coming > from.? I am going to make a couple of statements but they are not meant so > much to stimulate a debate, but rather to try to set a tone for this group > and to progress the cause of the eastern Polish victims of Soviet > aggression.? Please bear with me and pardon the length of this response. > > In general, the Kresy-Siberia group is set up to be a mutually supportive > and collaborative one promoting "Research, Remembrance and Recognition", and > it is REPECTFULLY REQUESTED that members maintain that spirit in order to > retain their membership. > > The question that Janie and Ed are debating is whether Polish survivors of > Soviet persecution can and should be recognised and remembered at the > Holocaust Museum in Washington. > > First of all it is a fact that they can. > > I wrote to them and asked directly if I could register my family who were > persecuted by the Soviets in 1940-42, and they said yes and sent me > registration forms.? Here is a quote from their site: "the Registry defines > a Holocaust survivor as anyone who suffered persecutions by Nazis and/or > their allies as a result of the racial, political or ethnic policies from > 1933 to 1945 and who survived the end of World War II: camp survivors, > political prisoners, persons in hiding, refugees from territories under rule > of Germany and its allies, as well as evacuees from territories which were > occupied later, etc. Other victims of persecution by the Nazis and their > allies... are also considered survivors" > > As you know, the Soviets were the allies of the Nazis in the destruction of > Poland from 1939 to 1941. > > Second of all, and here is where I am expressing a personal opinion, I > believe that the Polish survivors SHOULD be registered and recognised at the > Holocaust Museum. > > Let me explain why.? It is true that the U.S. Holocaust Museum is dominated > by remembrance of Jewish victims.? This is not surprising, as the Jews were > a primary target of the Nazi genocide and drove the establishment of the > museum.? However, while it is normal to feel it unfair that Polish victims > of the Nazis (and the Soviets) are not recognised in the same way as the > Jewish victims are, the question is what to do about it and how to change > that. > > I suggest that the best way to change this is for the Poles to take their > place alongside the other victims and recognise their suffering together, > rather than to avoid the established memorial centres as being "only for the > Jews". > > The Holocaust Museum in Washington was set up by the American Government as > THE institution to remember and recognise ALL victims of the Nazis and their > allies.? In the absence of a POLISH-ONLY HOLOCAUST MUSEUM, why not take > advantage of the U.S. HOLOCAUST MUSEUM to recognise our families and their > courage to survive the Soviets? > > Here's an idea that has fired my imagination! > > For the Registry's purposes, anyone displaced by the racial, political and > ethnic policies of the Nazis or their allies who survived until the end of > the war is considered a survivor.? The Registry of Holocaust Survivors > currently contains the names of over 115,000 survivors - most in the United > States or Canada, although some from survivors who live in other countries. > > Imagine how public opinion would be shaped if we were to register the names > of the over 100,000 Polish survivors of the Soviet Gulags who escaped > through Persia with General Anders at the Holocaust Museum?? Though we > actually have tens of thousands of names and brief histories at the Hoover > Institution, the only catch is that survivors need to fill out the > registration themselves or be registered by their relatives. > > Okay, so that let's Irene at the Hoover off the hook!? But what if the 50 > members of this group registered their own family survivors as a start and > we got the ball rolling on this recognition and remembrance thing?? That > would be hundreds of names.? There are also spaces for 2nd and 3rd > generation descendants of the Survivors (guys like me). > > In short, I would encourage all of us with WW2 Survivors in our families to > take up our rightful place by going to > http://www.ushmm.org/remembrance/registry/ and getting the form and > registering them.? (Forms are even available in Polish!) > > If somebody does not want to take up this right and opportunity, of course > that is completely up to them. > > Kindest regards, > > -- > Stefan Wisniowski > Moderator, Kresy-Siberia > > QUOTE FROM www.ushmm.org/museum/council/mission.htm > "The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is America's national > institution for the documentation, study, and interpretation of Holocaust > history, and serves as this country's memorial to the millions of people > murdered during the Holocaust. > > The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution and > annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between > 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary victims --- six million were murdered; > Gypsies, the handicapped, and Poles were also targeted for destruction or > decimation for racial, ethnic, or national reasons. Millions more, including > homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war, and political > dissidents also suffered grievous oppression and death under Nazi tyranny. > > The Museum's primary mission is to advance and disseminate knowledge about > this unprecedented tragedy; to preserve the memory of those who suffered; > and to encourage its visitors to reflect upon the moral and spiritual > questions raised by the events of the Holocaust as well as their own > responsibilities as citizens of a democracy." > > > From: "edtar" > > Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... > > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:34:59 -0400 > > To: > > Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS > > > > > > Dear Janie, when yoy say they are trying to include everyone you are talking > > about the holocaust museum/memorial. If you go to the web you referenced you > > will find it is for Jews.? The registry is for the Jews. > > I am not a Jew and most if not all Kresy-Siberia members are non Jews and > > further they are mostly Christian Catholic/Orthodox/Unite? Poles who were > > deported to the slave labor camps in the USSR or their descendants. There were > > very few Jews deported to Siberia. > > By the way, who were the Associates of the Gemans/Nazis???? > > Edward > > > >> --- Original Message ----- > >> From: jmicchelli@... > >> To: Kresy-Siberia@... > >> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 3:59 PM > >> Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS > >> > >> Dear Ed, > >> If you go to the web-site, you will see that they are trying to include > >> EVERYONE > >> WHO WAS AFFECTED BY THE NAZIS AND THEIR ASSOCIATES........ > >> THAT INCLUDES MY FAMILY AS WELL AS YOURS..............AND IF THIS IS THE WAY > >> TO GET RECOGNIZATION, SO BE IT.......... > >> JANIE > >> > >> > >>> You have your wires crossed. > >>> Holocaust memerial is for Jews who were persecuted by the Germans. > >>> Kresy-Siberia is for all Polish citizens who were deported to Siberia and > >>> persecuted by the Soviets. > >>> Ed Tarchalski > >>> > >>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: jmicchelli@... To: > >>>> ":Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com ; "To:Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com Sent: > >>>> Monday, October 15, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi Stefan and other group members, > >>>> > >>>> A few months ago I wrote Stefan, to tell him that I was going to register > >>>> my > >>>> family at this site, it is at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, I did > >>>> so just a few weeks ago, here is a click-on with more information. They > >>>> are > >>>> looking to document survivors of the Holocaust (this is not only for > >>>> members > >>>> of the Jewish community). > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Click here: Remembrance \| Registry of Holocaust Survivors > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The Registry defines a survivor as a person who was displaced, persecuted, > >>>> and/or discriminated against by the racial, religious, ethnic, and > >>>> political > >>>> policies of the Nazis and their allies. In addition to former inmates of > >>>> concentration camps and ghettos this includes, among others, refugees and > >>>> people in hiding. > >>>> > >>>> Please help us to document survivors who are not yet registered by passing > >>>> on information about this Registry. ---------- I think that a lot of the > >>>> members in this group qualify as survivors, please take a few minutes and > >>>> see if this is something you would do. > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +?? KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP > +?? Research, Remembrance, Recognition > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +? ? Websites:? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia > +? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? www.AForgottenOdyssey.com > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +? ? Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. > +? ? Send e-mails to:? Kresy-Siberia@... > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +? ? To Subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: > +? ? Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@... AND > +? ? a message to Kresy-Siberia-owner@... > +? ? saying who you are and your interest in the group > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +?? To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > +?? Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@... > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? +?? Research, Remembrance, Recognition? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? Websites:? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia? +? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? http:/www.AForgottenOdyssey.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. +? ? Send e-mails to:? Kresy-Siberia@...?? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail to: +? ? Kresy-Siberia-owner@...? ? +? ? saying who you are and your interest in the group? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:?? +?? Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@...? ? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from? rly-xd04.mail.aol.com (rly-xd04.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.169]) by air-xd02.mail.aol.com (v81.9) with ESMTP id MAILINXD21-1017041757; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 04:17:57 -0400 Received: from? n14.groups.yahoo.com (n14.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.64]) by rly-xd04.mx.aol.com (v80.21) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXD49-1017041730; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 04:17:31 -0400 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-3990911-138-1003306640-JCBSERV=aol.com@... Received: from [10.1.1.220] by n14.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Oct 2001 08:18:15 -0000 X-Sender: tomaszkc@... X-Apparently-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 17 Oct 2001 08:17:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 21997 invoked from network); 17 Oct 2001 08:17:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) ? by 10.1.1.220 with QMQP; 17 Oct 2001 08:17:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO creative.actrix.co.nz) (203.96.26.135) ? by mta3 with SMTP; 17 Oct 2001 08:17:15 -0000 Received: from pavilion (wn-d142.connections.net.nz [202.154.130.142]) ? ? by creative.actrix.co.nz (Postfix) with SMTP id 56666BAF ? ? for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:16:26 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <004901c156e5$860ec920$cb829aca@pavilion> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "Krystine Tomaszyk" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list Kresy-Siberia@...; contact Kresy-Siberia-owner@... Delivered-To: mailing list Kresy-Siberia@... Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:26:01 +1300 Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
[email protected] #159 Dear Jan, Thank you for your description of the museum! ?I had plans to take my children there on the 13th of September since they were featuring a speaker who was kidnapped and taken to a german forced labor camp, and then spent years in a dp camp, (circumstances very similar to our family) but the events of the 11th of September showed my children first-hand what atrocities mankind is capable of. Hope to put the museum trip back on the agenda for the summer. ??janie :-)
Krystine Tomaszyk All Messages By This Member #156 开云体育 JAN, ? thank you for the description of the museum. ? There is so much suffering and sadness in the world. One would have thought that people will learn a lesson from all that has already happened. But it does not seem so, not even today. ? And yet, I cannot accept the fact that human aggression and cruelty will not end. ? There must be a time when people will gain sanity and will learn that no one can win by aggression and hate. ? Regards, Krystine ? ? ? ? toggle quoted message Show quoted text ----- Original Message ----- From: JCBSERV@... To: Kresy-Siberia@... Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War Krystine, If you are referring to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, it's for the victims of the Holocaust, and their families. ?I have been there, and it is a wonderful Museum. ?There are memorials to those who were lost, and there are tributes from those who survived. ?There is a very large room, where a flame burns ALWAYS, and people go there to pray, or to meditate. ?Very quiet, hushed voices, a very moving place. ?There is another room, with an entire wall covered with 4 inch ceramic tiles, each painted by a child. ?These were done in schools all over the US (I think), and sent to the Museum. ?It is good to know that some schools are teaching about the Holocaust, and not trying to make it into a myth! ?The tiles are extremely touching. ?There are also tours, through the Museum, where you will see an actual cattle car, as well as full scale models of the huts where the prisoners lived. ?There are walls covered with photographs of those who died in the camps. ?And there is a wonderful exhibit of all those who helped the Jews are are now called "Righteous Among the Nations" ?That was the BEST place for me, since a relative is listed there! ?Unfortunately, I couldn't take any pictures, since they are forbidden. ?But I wanted so much to take a photo, and send it to her daughter! If you get a chance, I suggest you take the time to do the whole tour, it's quite educational. Jan Birkner ========Original Message======== *Subj: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War* Date: 10/17/01 4:17:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time From:? ? tomaszkc@... (Krystine Tomaszyk) Reply-to: Kresy-Siberia@... To:? ? Kresy-Siberia@... Stefan, I do congratulate you on your letter concerning the Holocaust Museum and especially your rational approach to the subject. I have only one question. The museum. Is it for the survivors of the Holocaust or the victims who have perished? I do not know very much about this mueum and would appreciate clarification. Regards, Krystine ----- Original Message ----- From: Stefan Wisniowski To: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 12:30 AM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War > This is in response to the recent exchanges between Ed and Janie, both of > which are well-meaning and both of which are partly right!? Ed is right that > the referenced Holocaust Museum website seems to be oriented towards Jewish > survivors.? Janie is right that it is open to all survivors of the > Nazi-Soviet alliance. > > There are many ways to look at these things, depending where you are coming > from.? I am going to make a couple of statements but they are not meant so > much to stimulate a debate, but rather to try to set a tone for this group > and to progress the cause of the eastern Polish victims of Soviet > aggression.? Please bear with me and pardon the length of this response. > > In general, the Kresy-Siberia group is set up to be a mutually supportive > and collaborative one promoting "Research, Remembrance and Recognition", and > it is REPECTFULLY REQUESTED that members maintain that spirit in order to > retain their membership. > > The question that Janie and Ed are debating is whether Polish survivors of > Soviet persecution can and should be recognised and remembered at the > Holocaust Museum in Washington. > > First of all it is a fact that they can. > > I wrote to them and asked directly if I could register my family who were > persecuted by the Soviets in 1940-42, and they said yes and sent me > registration forms.? Here is a quote from their site: "the Registry defines > a Holocaust survivor as anyone who suffered persecutions by Nazis and/or > their allies as a result of the racial, political or ethnic policies from > 1933 to 1945 and who survived the end of World War II: camp survivors, > political prisoners, persons in hiding, refugees from territories under rule > of Germany and its allies, as well as evacuees from territories which were > occupied later, etc. Other victims of persecution by the Nazis and their > allies... are also considered survivors" > > As you know, the Soviets were the allies of the Nazis in the destruction of > Poland from 1939 to 1941. > > Second of all, and here is where I am expressing a personal opinion, I > believe that the Polish survivors SHOULD be registered and recognised at the > Holocaust Museum. > > Let me explain why.? It is true that the U.S. Holocaust Museum is dominated > by remembrance of Jewish victims.? This is not surprising, as the Jews were > a primary target of the Nazi genocide and drove the establishment of the > museum.? However, while it is normal to feel it unfair that Polish victims > of the Nazis (and the Soviets) are not recognised in the same way as the > Jewish victims are, the question is what to do about it and how to change > that. > > I suggest that the best way to change this is for the Poles to take their > place alongside the other victims and recognise their suffering together, > rather than to avoid the established memorial centres as being "only for the > Jews". > > The Holocaust Museum in Washington was set up by the American Government as > THE institution to remember and recognise ALL victims of the Nazis and their > allies.? In the absence of a POLISH-ONLY HOLOCAUST MUSEUM, why not take > advantage of the U.S. HOLOCAUST MUSEUM to recognise our families and their > courage to survive the Soviets? > > Here's an idea that has fired my imagination! > > For the Registry's purposes, anyone displaced by the racial, political and > ethnic policies of the Nazis or their allies who survived until the end of > the war is considered a survivor.? The Registry of Holocaust Survivors > currently contains the names of over 115,000 survivors - most in the United > States or Canada, although some from survivors who live in other countries. > > Imagine how public opinion would be shaped if we were to register the names > of the over 100,000 Polish survivors of the Soviet Gulags who escaped > through Persia with General Anders at the Holocaust Museum?? Though we > actually have tens of thousands of names and brief histories at the Hoover > Institution, the only catch is that survivors need to fill out the > registration themselves or be registered by their relatives. > > Okay, so that let's Irene at the Hoover off the hook!? But what if the 50 > members of this group registered their own family survivors as a start and > we got the ball rolling on this recognition and remembrance thing?? That > would be hundreds of names.? There are also spaces for 2nd and 3rd > generation descendants of the Survivors (guys like me). > > In short, I would encourage all of us with WW2 Survivors in our families to > take up our rightful place by going to > http://www.ushmm.org/remembrance/registry/ and getting the form and > registering them.? (Forms are even available in Polish!) > > If somebody does not want to take up this right and opportunity, of course > that is completely up to them. > > Kindest regards, > > -- > Stefan Wisniowski > Moderator, Kresy-Siberia > > QUOTE FROM www.ushmm.org/museum/council/mission.htm > "The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is America's national > institution for the documentation, study, and interpretation of Holocaust > history, and serves as this country's memorial to the millions of people > murdered during the Holocaust. > > The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution and > annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between > 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary victims --- six million were murdered; > Gypsies, the handicapped, and Poles were also targeted for destruction or > decimation for racial, ethnic, or national reasons. Millions more, including > homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war, and political > dissidents also suffered grievous oppression and death under Nazi tyranny. > > The Museum's primary mission is to advance and disseminate knowledge about > this unprecedented tragedy; to preserve the memory of those who suffered; > and to encourage its visitors to reflect upon the moral and spiritual > questions raised by the events of the Holocaust as well as their own > responsibilities as citizens of a democracy." > > > From: "edtar" > > Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... > > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:34:59 -0400 > > To: > > Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS > > > > > > Dear Janie, when yoy say they are trying to include everyone you are talking > > about the holocaust museum/memorial. If you go to the web you referenced you > > will find it is for Jews.? The registry is for the Jews. > > I am not a Jew and most if not all Kresy-Siberia members are non Jews and > > further they are mostly Christian Catholic/Orthodox/Unite? Poles who were > > deported to the slave labor camps in the USSR or their descendants. There were > > very few Jews deported to Siberia. > > By the way, who were the Associates of the Gemans/Nazis???? > > Edward > > > >> --- Original Message ----- > >> From: jmicchelli@... > >> To: Kresy-Siberia@... > >> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 3:59 PM > >> Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS > >> > >> Dear Ed, > >> If you go to the web-site, you will see that they are trying to include > >> EVERYONE > >> WHO WAS AFFECTED BY THE NAZIS AND THEIR ASSOCIATES........ > >> THAT INCLUDES MY FAMILY AS WELL AS YOURS..............AND IF THIS IS THE WAY > >> TO GET RECOGNIZATION, SO BE IT.......... > >> JANIE > >> > >> > >>> You have your wires crossed. > >>> Holocaust memerial is for Jews who were persecuted by the Germans. > >>> Kresy-Siberia is for all Polish citizens who were deported to Siberia and > >>> persecuted by the Soviets. > >>> Ed Tarchalski > >>> > >>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: jmicchelli@... To: > >>>> ":Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com ; "To:Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com Sent: > >>>> Monday, October 15, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi Stefan and other group members, > >>>> > >>>> A few months ago I wrote Stefan, to tell him that I was going to register > >>>> my > >>>> family at this site, it is at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, I did > >>>> so just a few weeks ago, here is a click-on with more information. They > >>>> are > >>>> looking to document survivors of the Holocaust (this is not only for > >>>> members > >>>> of the Jewish community). > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Click here: Remembrance \| Registry of Holocaust Survivors > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The Registry defines a survivor as a person who was displaced, persecuted, > >>>> and/or discriminated against by the racial, religious, ethnic, and > >>>> political > >>>> policies of the Nazis and their allies. In addition to former inmates of > >>>> concentration camps and ghettos this includes, among others, refugees and > >>>> people in hiding. > >>>> > >>>> Please help us to document survivors who are not yet registered by passing > >>>> on information about this Registry. ---------- I think that a lot of the > >>>> members in this group qualify as survivors, please take a few minutes and > >>>> see if this is something you would do. > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +?? KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP > +?? Research, Remembrance, Recognition > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +? ? Websites:? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia > +? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? www.AForgottenOdyssey.com > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +? ? Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. > +? ? Send e-mails to:? Kresy-Siberia@... > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +? ? To Subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: > +? ? Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@... AND > +? ? a message to Kresy-Siberia-owner@... > +? ? saying who you are and your interest in the group > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +?? To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > +?? Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@... > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? +?? Research, Remembrance, Recognition? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? Websites:? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia? +? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? http:/www.AForgottenOdyssey.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. +? ? Send e-mails to:? Kresy-Siberia@...?? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail to: +? ? 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Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:26:01 +1300 Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP???????????????????????????????? +?? Research, Remembrance, Recognition??????????????????? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +??? Websites:? ? +???????????????????????? http:/www.AForgottenOdyssey.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +??? Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. +??? Send e-mails to:? Kresy-Siberia@...?? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +??? To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail to: +??? Kresy-Siberia-owner@...??? +??? saying who you are and your interest in the group??? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:?? +?? 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edtar #168 Stefan You wrote: "the referenced Holocaust Museum website seems to be oriented towards Jewish survivors. " It does not SEEM to be oriented, it IS for Jewish Holocaust survivors. "I wrote to them and asked directly if I could register my family who were persecuted by the Soviets in 1940-42, and they said yes and sent me registration forms." Did you tell them that you are not Jewish?? On the other hand it may not matter much to them since larger numbers will mean better holocaust business. You never know what compensation may pop up in the future. Rest assured you will not be eligible to hsare in the kitty. The term Holocaust really means burning at the stake or offering and in this case the burning (in crematoria) of the Jews. Holocaust was perpetrated by Germans, not Soviets. Soviets murdered millions of people - all nationalities - by overworking and starvation. They were not allies of the Germans in holocaust. This is a free country and you can belong to most organisations including Holocaust. Mozeltoff to you. But please do not propagate nonsensic associations. Holocaust is Jjewish and you can not change this but you can adopt Judaism and be one of them. Edward ----- Original Message ----- From: Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...> To: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War This is in response to the recent exchanges between Ed and Janie, both of which are well-meaning and both of which are partly right! Ed is right that the referenced Holocaust Museum website seems to be oriented towards Jewish survivors. Janie is right that it is open to all survivors of the Nazi-Soviet alliance. There are many ways to look at these things, depending where you are coming from. I am going to make a couple of statements but they are not meant so much to stimulate a debate, but rather to try to set a tone for this group and to progress the cause of the eastern Polish victims of Soviet aggression. Please bear with me and pardon the length of this response. In general, the Kresy-Siberia group is set up to be a mutually supportive and collaborative one promoting "Research, Remembrance and Recognition", and it is REPECTFULLY REQUESTED that members maintain that spirit in order to retain their membership. The question that Janie and Ed are debating is whether Polish survivors of Soviet persecution can and should be recognised and remembered at the Holocaust Museum in Washington. First of all it is a fact that they can. I wrote to them and asked directly if I could register my family who were persecuted by the Soviets in 1940-42, and they said yes and sent me registration forms. Here is a quote from their site: "the Registry defines a Holocaust survivor as anyone who suffered persecutions by Nazis and/or their allies as a result of the racial, political or ethnic policies from 1933 to 1945 and who survived the end of World War II: camp survivors, political prisoners, persons in hiding, refugees from territories under rule of Germany and its allies, as well as evacuees from territories which were occupied later, etc. Other victims of persecution by the Nazis and their allies... are also considered survivors" As you know, the Soviets were the allies of the Nazis in the destruction of Poland from 1939 to 1941. Second of all, and here is where I am expressing a personal opinion, I believe that the Polish survivors SHOULD be registered and recognised at the Holocaust Museum. Let me explain why. It is true that the U.S. Holocaust Museum is dominated by remembrance of Jewish victims. This is not surprising, as the Jews were a primary target of the Nazi genocide and drove the establishment of the museum. However, while it is normal to feel it unfair that Polish victims of the Nazis (and the Soviets) are not recognised in the same way as the Jewish victims are, the question is what to do about it and how to change that. I suggest that the best way to change this is for the Poles to take their place alongside the other victims and recognise their suffering together, rather than to avoid the established memorial centres as being "only for the Jews". The Holocaust Museum in Washington was set up by the American Government as THE institution to remember and recognise ALL victims of the Nazis and their allies. In the absence of a POLISH-ONLY HOLOCAUST MUSEUM, why not take advantage of the U.S. HOLOCAUST MUSEUM to recognise our families and their courage to survive the Soviets? Here's an idea that has fired my imagination! For the Registry's purposes, anyone displaced by the racial, political and ethnic policies of the Nazis or their allies who survived until the end of the war is considered a survivor. The Registry of Holocaust Survivors currently contains the names of over 115,000 survivors - most in the United States or Canada, although some from survivors who live in other countries. Imagine how public opinion would be shaped if we were to register the names of the over 100,000 Polish survivors of the Soviet Gulags who escaped through Persia with General Anders at the Holocaust Museum? Though we actually have tens of thousands of names and brief histories at the Hoover Institution, the only catch is that survivors need to fill out the registration themselves or be registered by their relatives. Okay, so that let's Irene at the Hoover off the hook! But what if the 50 members of this group registered their own family survivors as a start and we got the ball rolling on this recognition and remembrance thing? That would be hundreds of names. There are also spaces for 2nd and 3rd generation descendants of the Survivors (guys like me). In short, I would encourage all of us with WW2 Survivors in our families to take up our rightful place by going to and getting the form and registering them. (Forms are even available in Polish!) If somebody does not want to take up this right and opportunity, of course that is completely up to them. Kindest regards, -- Stefan Wisniowski Moderator, Kresy-Siberia QUOTE FROM www.ushmm.org/museum/council/mission.htm "The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is America's national institution for the documentation, study, and interpretation of Holocaust history, and serves as this country's memorial to the millions of people murdered during the Holocaust. The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution and annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary victims --- six million were murdered; Gypsies, the handicapped, and Poles were also targeted for destruction or decimation for racial, ethnic, or national reasons. Millions more, including homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war, and political dissidents also suffered grievous oppression and death under Nazi tyranny. The Museum's primary mission is to advance and disseminate knowledge about this unprecedented tragedy; to preserve the memory of those who suffered; and to encourage its visitors to reflect upon the moral and spiritual questions raised by the events of the Holocaust as well as their own responsibilities as citizens of a democracy." From: "edtar" <edtar@...> Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:34:59 -0400 To: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS Dear Janie, when yoy say they are trying to include everyone you are talking about the holocaust museum/memorial. If you go to the web you referenced you will find it is for Jews. The registry is for the Jews. I am not a Jew and most if not all Kresy-Siberia members are non Jews and further they are mostly Christian Catholic/Orthodox/Unite Poles who were deported to the slave labor camps in the USSR or their descendants. There were very few Jews deported to Siberia. By the way, who were the Associates of the Gemans/Nazis???? Edward --- Original Message ----- From: jmicchelli@... To: Kresy-Siberia@... Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS Dear Ed, If you go to the web-site, you will see that they are trying to include EVERYONE WHO WAS AFFECTED BY THE NAZIS AND THEIR ASSOCIATES........ THAT INCLUDES MY FAMILY AS WELL AS YOURS..............AND IF THIS IS THE WAY TO GET RECOGNIZATION, SO BE IT.......... JANIE You have your wires crossed. Holocaust memerial is for Jews who were persecuted by the Germans. Kresy-Siberia is for all Polish citizens who were deported to Siberia and persecuted by the Soviets. Ed Tarchalski ----- Original Message ----- From: jmicchelli@... To: ":Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com ; "To:Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS Hi Stefan and other group members, A few months ago I wrote Stefan, to tell him that I was going to register my family at this site, it is at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, I did so just a few weeks ago, here is a click-on with more information. They are looking to document survivors of the Holocaust (this is not only for members of the Jewish community). Click here: Remembrance \| Registry of Holocaust Survivors <> The Registry defines a survivor as a person who was displaced, persecuted, and/or discriminated against by the racial, religious, ethnic, and political policies of the Nazis and their allies. In addition to former inmates of concentration camps and ghettos this includes, among others, refugees and people in hiding. Please help us to document survivors who are not yet registered by passing on information about this Registry. ---------- I think that a lot of the members in this group qualify as survivors, please take a few minutes and see if this is something you would do. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP + Research, Remembrance, Recognition +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Websites: + www.AForgottenOdyssey.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. + Send e-mails to: Kresy-Siberia@... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + To Subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: + Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@... AND + a message to Kresy-Siberia-owner@... + saying who you are and your interest in the group +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: + Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
[email protected] #170 I have been following the discussion on the Holocaust Museum and I have to say that on a personal level my gut feeling goes with Edward. I did look at the site and the first thing I noticed was the heading which referred to Jewish victims and survivors of the holocaust. I am not Jewish, my father is not Jewish and, while there are apparently some Jewish Pundyks out there in the world, none of his family were Jewish. I think if I registered my grandmother's and father's name here they would be deeply offended as the holocaust had nothing to do with what they went through. I also don't think the logic of 'it's better than nothing' justifies registering my family's name. While I acknowledge the tragedy of the holocaust I don't believe it serves any purpose in regards to those Poles, of whom we belong, who were persecuted by the Russians. If anything, I feel it will only serve to help our families' histories be swallowed up and forgotten in the enormity of and widely recognised Jewish tragedy. Grace
Stefan Wisniowski #173 Grace, thanks for your thoughtful reply. We are united in our desire to do something, but are looking for the best strategy to get it done. I have suggested getting on the radar screen at America's only official shrine to the genocide of WW2 that I am aware of. While it does not require that the survivors be Jewish to qualify, the Museum certainly has an overwhelming Jewish flavour to it - and I understand that, at least in the past, it has included exhibits that did not flatter the Polish people. For example, it refers to the Polish Pogrom in Kielce on 4 July 1946 - even though most histories I have read concede that this was staged by Soviet authorities. So it may be a flawed institution, and if it is only for Jews, then we should obviously not register non-Jewish family there. I think we should probably investigate this a bit more. I welcome other opinions. Also, I may not be aware of other possible institutions where we could better accomplish our aims. I am open to alternate suggestions on how to get recognition for our families' and our country's suffering - and here I am talking about PR - Public Relations - something the Poles don't seem to have been too proficient at in the past. But I do know that as long as we do not stand up for ourselves and tell our stories, we will be relegated to being forgotten victims or, worse, perhaps suspected as sympathisers or even collaborators in the tragedies of World War 2. For example, when you look at the listings of Nazi victims, Jews, Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses and homosexuals are all listed as target groups. The 3 million Christian Poles who lost their lives and the deliberate actions of both the Nazis and the Soviets to exterminate Polish leadership under their September 1939 accord do not rate a mention. In fact, some people in this discussion group are of the opinion that the persecution of the Poles from the eastern Borders has no relationship with the Nazis and we should stop referring to that side of the war on Poland. However, the 1939 Soviet invasion was enabled by an alliance with the Nazis. The Germans committed atrocities in Lwów and eastern Poland during the war. I think there is a relationship worth exploring after all. I thank all members of the group for keeping this discussion collaborative and cordial. Regards, Stefan Wisniowski toggle quoted message Show quoted text From: grace@... Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:16:58 -0000 To: Kresy-Siberia@... Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: SURVIVORS of the War I have been following the discussion on the Holocaust Museum and I have to say that on a personal level my gut feeling goes with Edward. I did look at the site and the first thing I noticed was the heading which referred to Jewish victims and survivors of the holocaust. I am not Jewish, my father is not Jewish and, while there are apparently some Jewish Pundyks out there in the world, none of his family were Jewish. I think if I registered my grandmother's and father's name here they would be deeply offended as the holocaust had nothing to do with what they went through. I also don't think the logic of 'it's better than nothing' justifies registering my family's name. While I acknowledge the tragedy of the holocaust I don't believe it serves any purpose in regards to those Poles, of whom we belong, who were persecuted by the Russians. If anything, I feel it will only serve to help our families' histories be swallowed up and forgotten in the enormity of and widely recognised Jewish tragedy. Grace +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP + Research, Remembrance, Recognition +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Websites: + http:/www.AForgottenOdyssey.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. + Send e-mails to: Kresy-Siberia@... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail to: + Kresy-Siberia-owner@... + saying who you are and your interest in the group +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to: + Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
[email protected] #178 So it may be a flawed institution, and if it is only for Jews, then we should obviously not register non-Jewish family there. I think we should probably investigate this a bit more. I welcome other opinions. Dear Stefan and other group members, here are some of my thoughts, while the institution may be flawed, I don' t think we need to turn away, checking it out further is definitely worth a try. Jan mentioned that she was there, what are your thoughts, was it geared strictly to the Jews or was there a feeling that other nationalities also suffered? Of course the public is interested in the Holocaust and will flock to such a place, it's all over the history books; the plight of Poles to Siberia is not in the books. But it doesn't mean that getting the story out there now is too late! I have an excerpt from a newspaper article dated 9/19/1977, "In 1990 Joseph Wardzala was among the FIRST CATHOLICS to videotape an oral history with the museum. His 30 minute talk can be viewed in the museum's Wexner Learning Center. The museum plans to offer a multimedia presentation including clips from Wardzala's oral history to high school across the United States via the internet." Just think what that would mean if we could get someone from the group in on this 'multimedia presentation out to high schools"............ janie
[email protected] #239 Dear Krystine, The Holocaust Museum in Washington DC is for all. ?It is a tribute to those who were lost, and place for survivors to go, where they can remember, and, a place for those of us who didn't experience the Holocaust, but maybe our ancestors did, or maybe we just feel that it should NOT be forgotten! I hope you get the opportunity to visit there one day. ?The exhibitions are wonderful, and they really reach down inside of you! ?There is also a room with a wall commemorating those who are named "Righteous Among the Nations" ?It's a beautiful tribute to those who helped the victims! Jan Birkner In reference to your comment: è . The museum. Is it for the è survivors of the ?Holocaust or the victims who have è perished? *========Original Message========*
[email protected] #240 Hello N\A, In reference to your comment: è . The museum. Is it for the è survivors of the ?Holocaust or the victims who have è perished? ========Original Message======== *Subj: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War* Date: 10/17/01 6:07:03 PM Eastern Standard Time From:? ? JCBSERV@... Reply-to: Kresy-Siberia@... To:? ? Kresy-Siberia@... Krystine, If you are referring to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, it's for the victims of the Holocaust, and their families. ?I have been there, and it is a wonderful Museum. ?There are memorials to those who were lost, and there are tributes from those who survived. ?There is a very large room, where a flame burns ALWAYS, and people go there to pray, or to meditate. ?Very quiet, hushed voices, a very moving place. ?There is another room, with an entire wall covered with 4 inch ceramic tiles, each painted by a child. ?These were done in schools all over the US (I think), and sent to the Museum. ?It is good to know that some schools are teaching about the Holocaust, and not trying to make it into a myth! ?The tiles are extremely touching. ?There are also tours, through the Museum, where you will see an actual cattle car, as well as full scale models of the huts where the prisoners lived. ?There are walls covered with photographs of those who died in the camps. ?And there is a wonderful exhibit of all those who helped the Jews are are now called "Righteous Among the Nations" ?That was the BEST place for me, since a relative is listed there! ?Unfortunately, I couldn't take any pictures, since they are forbidden. ?But I wanted so much to take a photo, and send it to her daughter! If you get a chance, I suggest you take the time to do the whole tour, it's quite educational. Jan Birkner ========Original Message======== *Subj: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War* Date: 10/17/01 4:17:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time From:? ? tomaszkc@... (Krystine Tomaszyk) Reply-to: Kresy-Siberia@... To:? ? Kresy-Siberia@... Stefan, I do congratulate you on your letter concerning the Holocaust Museum and especially your rational approach to the subject. I have only one question. The museum. Is it for the survivors of the Holocaust or the victims who have perished? I do not know very much about this mueum and would appreciate clarification. Regards, Krystine toggle quoted message Show quoted text ----- Original Message ----- From: Stefan Wisniowski To: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 12:30 AM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War > This is in response to the recent exchanges between Ed and Janie, both of > which are well-meaning and both of which are partly right!? Ed is right that > the referenced Holocaust Museum website seems to be oriented towards Jewish > survivors.? Janie is right that it is open to all survivors of the > Nazi-Soviet alliance. > > There are many ways to look at these things, depending where you are coming > from.? I am going to make a couple of statements but they are not meant so > much to stimulate a debate, but rather to try to set a tone for this group > and to progress the cause of the eastern Polish victims of Soviet > aggression.? Please bear with me and pardon the length of this response. > > In general, the Kresy-Siberia group is set up to be a mutually supportive > and collaborative one promoting "Research, Remembrance and Recognition", and > it is REPECTFULLY REQUESTED that members maintain that spirit in order to > retain their membership. > > The question that Janie and Ed are debating is whether Polish survivors of > Soviet persecution can and should be recognised and remembered at the > Holocaust Museum in Washington. > > First of all it is a fact that they can. > > I wrote to them and asked directly if I could register my family who were > persecuted by the Soviets in 1940-42, and they said yes and sent me > registration forms.? Here is a quote from their site: "the Registry defines > a Holocaust survivor as anyone who suffered persecutions by Nazis and/or > their allies as a result of the racial, political or ethnic policies from > 1933 to 1945 and who survived the end of World War II: camp survivors, > political prisoners, persons in hiding, refugees from territories under rule > of Germany and its allies, as well as evacuees from territories which were > occupied later, etc. Other victims of persecution by the Nazis and their > allies... are also considered survivors" > > As you know, the Soviets were the allies of the Nazis in the destruction of > Poland from 1939 to 1941. > > Second of all, and here is where I am expressing a personal opinion, I > believe that the Polish survivors SHOULD be registered and recognised at the > Holocaust Museum. > > Let me explain why.? It is true that the U.S. Holocaust Museum is dominated > by remembrance of Jewish victims.? This is not surprising, as the Jews were > a primary target of the Nazi genocide and drove the establishment of the > museum.? However, while it is normal to feel it unfair that Polish victims > of the Nazis (and the Soviets) are not recognised in the same way as the > Jewish victims are, the question is what to do about it and how to change > that. > > I suggest that the best way to change this is for the Poles to take their > place alongside the other victims and recognise their suffering together, > rather than to avoid the established memorial centres as being "only for the > Jews". > > The Holocaust Museum in Washington was set up by the American Government as > THE institution to remember and recognise ALL victims of the Nazis and their > allies.? In the absence of a POLISH-ONLY HOLOCAUST MUSEUM, why not take > advantage of the U.S. HOLOCAUST MUSEUM to recognise our families and their > courage to survive the Soviets? > > Here's an idea that has fired my imagination! > > For the Registry's purposes, anyone displaced by the racial, political and > ethnic policies of the Nazis or their allies who survived until the end of > the war is considered a survivor.? The Registry of Holocaust Survivors > currently contains the names of over 115,000 survivors - most in the United > States or Canada, although some from survivors who live in other countries. > > Imagine how public opinion would be shaped if we were to register the names > of the over 100,000 Polish survivors of the Soviet Gulags who escaped > through Persia with General Anders at the Holocaust Museum?? Though we > actually have tens of thousands of names and brief histories at the Hoover > Institution, the only catch is that survivors need to fill out the > registration themselves or be registered by their relatives. > > Okay, so that let's Irene at the Hoover off the hook!? But what if the 50 > members of this group registered their own family survivors as a start and > we got the ball rolling on this recognition and remembrance thing?? That > would be hundreds of names.? There are also spaces for 2nd and 3rd > generation descendants of the Survivors (guys like me). > > In short, I would encourage all of us with WW2 Survivors in our families to > take up our rightful place by going to > http://www.ushmm.org/remembrance/registry/ and getting the form and > registering them.? (Forms are even available in Polish!) > > If somebody does not want to take up this right and opportunity, of course > that is completely up to them. > > Kindest regards, > > -- > Stefan Wisniowski > Moderator, Kresy-Siberia > > QUOTE FROM www.ushmm.org/museum/council/mission.htm > "The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is America's national > institution for the documentation, study, and interpretation of Holocaust > history, and serves as this country's memorial to the millions of people > murdered during the Holocaust. > > The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution and > annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between > 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary victims --- six million were murdered; > Gypsies, the handicapped, and Poles were also targeted for destruction or > decimation for racial, ethnic, or national reasons. Millions more, including > homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war, and political > dissidents also suffered grievous oppression and death under Nazi tyranny. > > The Museum's primary mission is to advance and disseminate knowledge about > this unprecedented tragedy; to preserve the memory of those who suffered; > and to encourage its visitors to reflect upon the moral and spiritual > questions raised by the events of the Holocaust as well as their own > responsibilities as citizens of a democracy." > > > From: "edtar" > > Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... > > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:34:59 -0400 > > To: > > Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS > > > > > > Dear Janie, when yoy say they are trying to include everyone you are talking > > about the holocaust museum/memorial. If you go to the web you referenced you > > will find it is for Jews.? The registry is for the Jews. > > I am not a Jew and most if not all Kresy-Siberia members are non Jews and > > further they are mostly Christian Catholic/Orthodox/Unite? Poles who were > > deported to the slave labor camps in the USSR or their descendants. There were > > very few Jews deported to Siberia. > > By the way, who were the Associates of the Gemans/Nazis???? > > Edward > > > >> --- Original Message ----- > >> From: jmicchelli@... > >> To: Kresy-Siberia@... > >> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 3:59 PM > >> Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS > >> > >> Dear Ed, > >> If you go to the web-site, you will see that they are trying to include > >> EVERYONE > >> WHO WAS AFFECTED BY THE NAZIS AND THEIR ASSOCIATES........ > >> THAT INCLUDES MY FAMILY AS WELL AS YOURS..............AND IF THIS IS THE WAY > >> TO GET RECOGNIZATION, SO BE IT.......... > >> JANIE > >> > >> > >>> You have your wires crossed. > >>> Holocaust memerial is for Jews who were persecuted by the Germans. > >>> Kresy-Siberia is for all Polish citizens who were deported to Siberia and > >>> persecuted by the Soviets. > >>> Ed Tarchalski > >>> > >>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: jmicchelli@... To: > >>>> ":Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com ; "To:Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com Sent: > >>>> Monday, October 15, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi Stefan and other group members, > >>>> > >>>> A few months ago I wrote Stefan, to tell him that I was going to register > >>>> my > >>>> family at this site, it is at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, I did > >>>> so just a few weeks ago, here is a click-on with more information. They > >>>> are > >>>> looking to document survivors of the Holocaust (this is not only for > >>>> members > >>>> of the Jewish community). > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Click here: Remembrance \| Registry of Holocaust Survivors > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The Registry defines a survivor as a person who was displaced, persecuted, > >>>> and/or discriminated against by the racial, religious, ethnic, and > >>>> political > >>>> policies of the Nazis and their allies. In addition to former inmates of > >>>> concentration camps and ghettos this includes, among others, refugees and > >>>> people in hiding. > >>>> > >>>> Please help us to document survivors who are not yet registered by passing > >>>> on information about this Registry. ---------- I think that a lot of the > >>>> members in this group qualify as survivors, please take a few minutes and > >>>> see if this is something you would do. > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +?? KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP > +?? Research, Remembrance, Recognition > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +? ? Websites:? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia > +? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? www.AForgottenOdyssey.com > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +? ? Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. > +? ? Send e-mails to:? Kresy-Siberia@... > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +? ? To Subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: > +? ? Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@... AND > +? ? a message to Kresy-Siberia-owner@... > +? ? saying who you are and your interest in the group > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +?? To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > +?? Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@... > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? +?? Research, Remembrance, Recognition? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? Websites:? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia? +? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? http:/www.AForgottenOdyssey.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. +? ? Send e-mails to:? Kresy-Siberia@...?? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail to: +? ? 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[email protected] #241 Hello jmicchelli@..., In reference to your comment: è Hope to put the museum è trip back on the agenda for the summer Dear Janie, You will be glad you went!! ?Especially with the children. ?There is a special exhibit for children, chronicling the life of a young boy, from one day playing ball with his friends, to the next when no one will talk to him, and then he is taken!! Wonderful. ?And be sure not to miss the room with the tiles done by the children, it was truly wonderful! Jan ========Original Message======== *Subj: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War* Date: 10/18/01 6:58:54 AM Eastern Standard Time From:? ? jmicchelli@... Reply-to: Kresy-Siberia@... To:? ? Kresy-Siberia@... Dear Jan, Thank you for your description of the museum! ?I had plans to take my children there on the 13th of September since they were featuring a speaker who was kidnapped and taken to a german forced labor camp, and then spent years in a dp camp, (circumstances very similar to our family) but the events of the 11th of September showed my children first-hand what atrocities mankind is capable of. Hope to put the museum trip back on the agenda for the summer. ??janie :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP???????????????????????????????? +?? Research, Remembrance, Recognition??????????????????? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +??? Websites:? ? +???????????????????????? http:/www.AForgottenOdyssey.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +??? Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. +??? Send e-mails to:? Kresy-Siberia@...?? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +??? To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail to: +??? Kresy-Siberia-owner@...??? +??? saying who you are and your interest in the group??? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:?? +?? Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@...????? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the . ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from? rly-xd02.mail.aol.com (rly-xd02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.167]) by air-xd01.mail.aol.com (v81.9) with ESMTP id MAILINXD12-1018075859; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 07:58:54 -0400 Received: from? n33.groups.yahoo.com (n33.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.83]) by rly-xd02.mx.aol.com (v80.21) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXD210-1018075820; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 07:58:20 -0400 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-3990911-158-1003406078-JCBSERV=aol.com@... Received: from [10.1.4.53] by n33.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Oct 2001 11:54:38 -0000 X-Sender: JMicchelli@... X-Apparently-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 18 Oct 2001 11:54:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 17443 invoked from network); 18 Oct 2001 11:54:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) ? by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Oct 2001 11:54:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m01.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.4) ? by mta3 with SMTP; 18 Oct 2001 11:54:37 -0000 Received: from JMicchelli@... ? ? by imo-m01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id r.30.1c5b21f3 (4381) ? ? for <Kresy-Siberia@...>; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 07:54:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <30.1c5b21f3.29001ced@...> To: Kresy-Siberia@... X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10540 From: jmicchelli@... MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list Kresy-Siberia@...; contact Kresy-Siberia-owner@... Delivered-To: mailing list Kresy-Siberia@... Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 07:54:21 EDT Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_30.1c5b21f3.29001ced_boundary"
[email protected] #242 Dear Janie and all, I have been thinking about this situation. ?I do feel that our ancestors need to be recognized, I think the world needs to know the horrors that they went through. ?We didn't learn about such things when I was in school. ?The Holocaust, yes, we learned about that, but I never knew what my family suffered! ?I was a young girl when my cousin Aniela and her family arrived in the US. ?She was a beautiful blonde girl of about 16, and I remember thinking when I met her that she was well named, for she looked like an angel to me. ?All that I knew about her was that she and her parents were "Displaced Persons". ?Well, I knew that displaced meant something similar to being misplaced, but that a DISplaced person was put someplace deliberately, whereas something MISplaced was probably put someplace by accident. ?That didn't tell me where she was displaced from, or why, or by whom. ?Maybe the family felt the children were too young to understand, but Aniela was only 6 when she was "displaced". ??I was very proud of my father, for he worked for Gdynia America Lines at that time, and he "helped" Aniela and her parents to come to the US. ?I knew that that was an important thing for him to do. ?But I think all I really thought was that they lived in Poland, and wanted to come to the US because so much of the family was already here! Since all of the family lived in Boston, and my parents and I lived in NJ, I didn't see much of Aniela as I was growing up. ?It wasn't until I started doing my genealogy that I discovered that they had been in Siberia!!! ?In 1998, I went to Boston, with the express wish to see and speak with Aniela's mother. ?I wanted to know about Siberia. ?Unfortunately, she died the day my tickets arrived in the mail. ?Two weeks before I was supposed to leave on my trip! But, I did get to see Aniela. ?She didn't have much to say, she said she was only a child at the time, and children don't perceive things the way adults do. ?She did say that she remembered walking! to Iran! ?WALKING!!! ?She remembered her sister's death on the train to Siberia, she was a toddler and was torn from her mother's arms, and thrown out the window of the moving train by a soldier!!!! ?She didn't remember much about it, and her reaction to it was that her sister was there, then she wasn't! ?I think she didn't really understand at the time, what was happening. ?Her other sister, the twin of the one who was killed, died in Iran, of disease. ?She spoke more about that sister's death. ?She was there, she was older, about 12 by then, and she understood what happened to that sister. ?I think she really didn't understand at the time what had happened to the baby. I speak of these things, because the Poles suffered atrocities just as the Jews did, but we never knew about it! ?I always believed that Siberia was just a HUGE prison, for Russian criminals. ?Even as I grew older, I didn't really know much about it. ?I learned that some of my grandmother's family had been sent there, but I really didn't know the full implications of that! It wasn't until I found a cousin in Poland, who is also from my grandmother's side of the family, that I realized that my relatives had suffered such terrible things at the hands of others. ?Then I joined this list, and that's where I learned more than I ever knew about the Russian horrors! ?I never heard of Kazakhstan until I joined this list. ?Then, about a week after I joined the list, I discovered that my grandfather's side of the family, his siblings, had been sent THERE! ?I am still learning about that. ?And I am learning from THIS LIST!! There is not much out there to help us. ??Unless you know exactly what you are looking for, you won't find it just by going to your library. ?YES, we should have some kind of register for those who were victims of the camps. ?YES, we should do something to make the world aware of what really happened there, and YES, we need a way to find those who were taken to the camps, and never returned to their homeland! ? I am not the one to say exactly WHAT it is that we should do, but I definitely feel that we should do something. ?I don't think that the Holocaust Museum is the place for us. ?I believe that it is just for the Jews who were victims of the Nazi's idea of the "perfect world". ?But I do feel that we have an obligation to our ancestors to make the world aware of what happened to them at the hands of the Russians. ? I live in a small town in South Carolina, I think I am the only Pole in town! ?There is not a lot of interaction between us yankees, and those who are native to the south. ?But, there is a small college nearby, where I went last week to hear Lech Walesa, and I was truly expecting to be one of maybe 10 people there. ?I was amazed to find a packed house!!! ?And to see so many Polish looking people there! ?I had spoken to a professor of chemistry who is from Czestohowa. ?she translated a letter for me. ?She is the one who introduced Lech Walesa, in Polish AND in English!! ?I think that I would like to try to contact her again, and see what she has to say about our situation. ?I also know that there are some Polish students at this little Baptist college!! ?I will try to make some contact with them as well. ?Maybe they can help. ?Maybe they can tell us more. ?That is supposing that they even KNOW anything about what the Russians did. As for Janie's original question, yes, the Museum in Washington is really geared mainly for Jews, survivors, and those who were killed by the Nazis. ?We don't need to steal their thunder. What we need is to find organizers like they have!!! ?I think that's the difference. ?They were organized, there were people who wanted to make sure the world knew what happened to them. ?Our people didn't get to come to the US, they either died, or they went someplace else. ?They just wanted to forget!! We need help with this. ?I am open to suggestions! ?And I thank you ALL for all you have taught me in this short time! Jan Birkner ========Original Message======== *Subj: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: SURVIVORS of the War* Date: 10/21/01 4:31:00 PM Eastern Standard Time From:? ? jmicchelli@... Reply-to: Kresy-Siberia@... To:? ? Kresy-Siberia@... So it may be a flawed institution, and if it is only for Jews, then we should obviously not register non-Jewish family there.? I think we should probably investigate this a bit more.? I welcome other opinions. Dear Stefan and other group members, here are some of my thoughts, while the institution may be flawed, I don' t think we need to turn away, checking it out further is definitely worth a try.? Jan mentioned that she was there, what are your thoughts, was it geared strictly to the Jews or was there a feeling that other nationalities also suffered?? Of course the public is interested in the Holocaust and will flock to such a place, it's all over the history books; the plight of Poles to Siberia is not in the books. But it doesn't mean that getting the story out there now is too late! I have an excerpt from a newspaper article dated 9/19/1977, "In 1990 Joseph Wardzala was among the FIRST CATHOLICS to videotape an oral history with the museum.? His 30 minute talk can be viewed in the museum's Wexner Learning Center.? The museum plans to offer a multimedia presentation including clips from Wardzala's oral history to high school across the United States via the internet." ? Just think what that would mean if we could get someone from the group in on this 'multimedia presentation out to high schools"............ janie ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? +?? Research, Remembrance, Recognition? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? Websites:? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia? +? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? http:/www.AForgottenOdyssey.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. +? ? Send e-mails to:? Kresy-Siberia@...?? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail to: +? ? Kresy-Siberia-owner@...? ? +? ? saying who you are and your interest in the group? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:?? +?? Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@...? ? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from? rly-za02.mx.aol.com (rly-za02.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.98]) by air-za04.mail.aol.com (v81.9) with ESMTP id MAILINZA49-1021173059; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:30:59 -0400 Received: from? n8.groups.yahoo.com (n8.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.58]) by rly-za02.mx.aol.com (v80.21) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINZA210-1021173025; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:30:25 -0400 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-3990911-177-1003699658-JCBSERV=aol.com@... 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Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: SURVIVORS of the War Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Stefan Wisniowski #252 Jan, Thanks for your message. ?If we don't take a "Trojan Horse" strategy and piggyback on the Holocaust Museum's resources, how should we channel our desire for a special place for the Siberian deportees into a reality? Would it be right to say that though the survivors and their families are spread around the world, the majority are still in England around London? ?For example the Association of Borderlands Families is there. ?The Sikorski Institute is there. ?Does anyone know why it does not have the prominence of the Holocaust Museum, and what would prevent that from happening? ?I mean, it doesn't even have an e-mail address yet, much less a web page! Let's take a few days and brainstorm some options from the group. ?I suggest the following criteria for what we are looking for, based on the Kresy-Siberia group's byline: - Research: a way to promote learning and research about what happened to our families and their neighbors - Remembrance: ?a way to commemorate their suffering - Recognition: ?a way to educate the broader public about what happened Does it have to be a physical place or can it be a website experience? ? Does it have to be in one location or can it be everywhere at once? ? Does it need staff and funding or can it all be volunteers putting in their time and money? Do we involve the Poles in Poland (eg, Institute of National Remembrance) and the Polonia organisations, and if so how? -- Stefan Wisniowski Moderator, Kresy-Siberia toggle quoted message Show quoted text From: JCBSERV@... Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:51:48 EST To: Kresy-Siberia@... Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: SURVIVORS of the War Dear Janie and all, I have been thinking about this situation. ?I do feel that our ancestors need to be recognized, I think the world needs to know the horrors that they went through. ?We didn't learn about such things when I was in school. ?The Holocaust, yes, we learned about that, but I never knew what my family suffered! ?I was a young girl when my cousin Aniela and her family arrived in the US. ?She was a beautiful blonde girl of about 16, and I remember thinking when I met her that she was well named, for she looked like an angel to me. ?All that I knew about her was that she and her parents were "Displaced Persons". ?Well, I knew that displaced meant something similar to being misplaced, but that a DISplaced person was put someplace deliberately, whereas something MISplaced was probably put someplace by accident. ?That didn't tell me where she was displaced from, or why, or by whom. ?Maybe the family felt the children were too young to understand, but Aniela was only 6 when she was "displaced". ??I was very proud of my father, for he worked for Gdynia America Lines at that time, and he "helped" Aniela and her parents to come to the US. ?I knew that that was an important thing for him to do. ?But I think all I really thought was that they lived in Poland, and wanted to come to the US because so much of the family was already here! Since all of the family lived in Boston, and my parents and I lived in NJ, I didn't see much of Aniela as I was growing up. ?It wasn't until I started doing my genealogy that I discovered that they had been in Siberia!!! ?In 1998, I went to Boston, with the express wish to see and speak with Aniela's mother. ?I wanted to know about Siberia. ?Unfortunately, she died the day my tickets arrived in the mail. ?Two weeks before I was supposed to leave on my trip! But, I did get to see Aniela. ?She didn't have much to say, she said she was only a child at the time, and children don't perceive things the way adults do. ?She did say that she remembered walking! to Iran! ?WALKING!!! ?She remembered her sister's death on the train to Siberia, she was a toddler and was torn from her mother's arms, and thrown out the window of the moving train by a soldier!!!! ?She didn't remember much about it, and her reaction to it was that her sister was there, then she wasn't! ?I think she didn't really understand at the time, what was happening. ?Her other sister, the twin of the one who was killed, died in Iran, of disease. ?She spoke more about that sister's death. ?She was there, she was older, about 12 by then, and she understood what happened to that sister. ?I think she really didn't understand at the time what had happened to the baby. I speak of these things, because the Poles suffered atrocities just as the Jews did, but we never knew about it! ?I always believed that Siberia was just a HUGE prison, for Russian criminals. ?Even as I grew older, I didn't really know much about it. ?I learned that some of my grandmother's family had been sent there, but I really didn't know the full implications of that! It wasn't until I found a cousin in Poland, who is also from my grandmother's side of the family, that I realized that my relatives had suffered such terrible things at the hands of others. ?Then I joined this list, and that's where I learned more than I ever knew about the Russian horrors! ?I never heard of Kazakhstan until I joined this list. ?Then, about a week after I joined the list, I discovered that my grandfather's side of the family, his siblings, had been sent THERE! ?I am still learning about that. ?And I am learning from THIS LIST!! There is not much out there to help us. ??Unless you know exactly what you are looking for, you won't find it just by going to your library. ?YES, we should have some kind of register for those who were victims of the camps. ?YES, we should do something to make the world aware of what really happened there, and YES, we need a way to find those who were taken to the camps, and never returned to their homeland! ? I am not the one to say exactly WHAT it is that we should do, but I definitely feel that we should do something. ?I don't think that the Holocaust Museum is the place for us. ?I believe that it is just for the Jews who were victims of the Nazi's idea of the "perfect world". ?But I do feel that we have an obligation to our ancestors to make the world aware of what happened to them at the hands of the Russians. ? I live in a small town in South Carolina, I think I am the only Pole in town! ?There is not a lot of interaction between us yankees, and those who are native to the south. ?But, there is a small college nearby, where I went last week to hear Lech Walesa, and I was truly expecting to be one of maybe 10 people there. ?I was amazed to find a packed house!!! ?And to see so many Polish looking people there! ?I had spoken to a professor of chemistry who is from Czestohowa. ?she translated a letter for me. ?She is the one who introduced Lech Walesa, in Polish AND in English!! ?I think that I would like to try to contact her again, and see what she has to say about our situation. ?I also know that there are some Polish students at this little Baptist college!! ?I will try to make some contact with them as well. ?Maybe they can help. ?Maybe they can tell us more. ?That is supposing that they even KNOW anything about what the Russians did. As for Janie's original question, yes, the Museum in Washington is really geared mainly for Jews, survivors, and those who were killed by the Nazis. ?We don't need to steal their thunder. What we need is to find organizers like they have!!! ?I think that's the difference. ?They were organized, there were people who wanted to make sure the world knew what happened to them. ?Our people didn't get to come to the US, they either died, or they went someplace else. ?They just wanted to forget!! We need help with this. ?I am open to suggestions! ?And I thank you ALL for all you have taught me in this short time! Jan Birkner ========Original Message======== Subj: ??Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: SURVIVORS of the War ??? Date: ??10/21/01 4:31:00 PM Eastern Standard Time ?? From:? ? jmicchelli@... Reply-to: Kresy-Siberia@... To:? ? Kresy-Siberia@... ??? ??? So it may be a flawed institution, and if it is only for Jews, then we should obviously not register non-Jewish family there.? I think we should probably investigate this a bit more.? I welcome other opinions. Dear Stefan and other group members, here are some of my thoughts, while the institution may be flawed, I don' t think we need to turn away, checking it out further is definitely worth a try.? Jan mentioned that she was there, what are your thoughts, was it geared strictly to the Jews or was there a feeling that other nationalities also suffered?? Of course the public is interested in the Holocaust and will flock to such a place, it's all over the history books; the plight of Poles to Siberia is not in the books. But it doesn't mean that getting the story out there now is too late! I have an excerpt from a newspaper article dated 9/19/1977, "In 1990 Joseph Wardzala was among the FIRST CATHOLICS to videotape an oral history with the museum.? His 30 minute talk can be viewed in the museum's Wexner Learning Center.? The museum plans to offer a multimedia presentation including clips from Wardzala's oral history to high school across the United States via the internet." ? Just think what that would mean if we could get someone from the group in on this 'multimedia presentation out to high schools"............ janie ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial Click Here! ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? +?? Research, Remembrance, Recognition? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? Websites:? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia? +? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? http:/www.AForgottenOdyssey.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. +? ? Send e-mails to:? Kresy-Siberia@...?? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail to: +? ? Kresy-Siberia-owner@...? ? +? ? saying who you are and your interest in the group? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:?? +?? Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@...? ? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from? rly-za02.mx.aol.com (rly-za02.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.98]) by air-za04.mail.aol.com (v81.9) with ESMTP id MAILINZA49-1021173059; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:30:59 -0400 Received: from? n8.groups.yahoo.com (n8.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.58]) by rly-za02.mx.aol.com (v80.21) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINZA210-1021173025; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:30:25 -0400 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-3990911-177-1003699658-JCBSERV=aol.com@... 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[email protected] #254 Dear Jan and others, I have not had an opportunity to get to the museum yet.... what did spark my interest was this web-site: remember.org/forgotten/kidnaped.html I invite you to visit and read what one man has to say about how he was kidnapped, sent to work in a slave labor camp, and then spent years in a dp camp.? Since this is a story very similar to what happened to my family, I have no hesitation about standing shoulder to shoulder with Mr. Wardzala and the other Poles who are registered, and sharing my family history at the museum. This, of course, is what feels right for me....... I think that Jan mentioned that there is a section titled The Righteous Among the Nations, I just found this - the Jews actually do credit the Poles! Yad Vashem - The Righteous Among the Nations Number of Holocaust Rescuers by Country* and Ethnic Origin As of January 1, 2001 The Yad Vashem museum in Israel, founded in 1953, honors both Holocaust martyrs and "the Righteous Among the Nations," Gentile (non-Jewish) rescuers who have been recognized for their "compassion, courage and morality" because they "risked their lives to save the lives of Jews." Poland ranks first among 40 nations with 5,503 men and women, almost one-third of the total, despite the fact that only in Poland were citizens (and their loved ones) immediately executed if caught trying to save Jews. Many prominent Jews and their families owe their lives to these brave but rarely acknowledged people. For example, Abraham Foxman, director of the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Brith/USA, was saved by a Polish Catholic nanny who had him baptized as a Catholic and began raising him as her son in order to save him. - Edward Lucaire
[email protected] #255 Hi all, I know the discussion re. the Holocaust Museum has been going on for some time here and I put in my two cents worth some time ago, and while I have no problem with anyone wanting to register their names/family names at this site if that's what feels right for them I just want to point out what is probably obvious to everyone about the 'Righteous Among Nations' section of the museum from the clippings that have just been posted to this site. That is, it is about those Poles/others who helped the Jews - thus confirming what I said a while back about the museum being primarily related to the Jewish tragedy. I agree that there needs to be an independent site or avenue for educating others about all those Poles who suffered under the Soviets and would very much like to be a part of putting something together. I don't know how I can help - perhaps with collating and researching information/organisations, but I am at a bit of a disadvantage because I don't speak, read or write Polish. Still, I feel strongly about being a part of this so perhaps I could be part of a 'working group'. Regards Grace
[email protected] #272 Dear Stefan I think the reason that we aren't known as well as the HOlocaust victims is just because nobody said much! ?The cousin that I know who survived Siberia was just a child. ?Her parents are now dead, and not much has ever been said about their experiences there. ?I think too, that those who survived didn't really WANT to discuss what happened to them. ?It must have been a terrible experience. I think we need to involve anyone and everyone who has ANY kind of experience with this, even if we only know about it from our relatives and ancestors! ? I don't see why it can't be a website, as long as it's a good one, done tastefully, with the victims in mind, and with the idea that we WANT the world to know that the Poles suffered terribly at the hands of the Russians. I also think that we should make use of whatever resources are out there, especially the ones in Poland. ?From my email, it seems that Poland definitely wants to do SOMETHING! ?Maybe there can be a trade off, we'll build the website, if they will allow us to put THEIR information on it! ?Something like that! As I said before, I don't know much about building websites, but I have seen some really wonderful sites out there!! I think this could be a real possibility! ?We can start with a website, but who knows how far we can go, we could conceivably end up with a museum to the "Forgotten Holocaust" Ever hopeful, always seeing a glass half full! Jan Birkner ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: SURVIVORS of the War Date: 11/14/01 11:06:46 PM Eastern Standard Time From:? ? swisniowski@... (Stefan Wisniowski) Reply-to: Kresy-Siberia@... To:? ? Kresy-Siberia@... Jan, Thanks for your message. ?If we don't take a "Trojan Horse" strategy and piggyback on the Holocaust Museum's resources, how should we channel our desire for a special place for the Siberian deportees into a reality? Would it be right to say that though the survivors and their families are spread around the world, the majority are still in England around London? ?For example the Association of Borderlands Families is there. ?The Sikorski Institute is there. ?Does anyone know why it does not have the prominence of the Holocaust Museum, and what would prevent that from happening? ?I mean, it doesn't even have an e-mail address yet, much less a web page! Let's take a few days and brainstorm some options from the group. ?I suggest the following criteria for what we are looking for, based on the Kresy-Siberia group's byline: - Research: a way to promote learning and research about what happened to our families and their neighbors - Remembrance: ?a way to commemorate their suffering - Recognition: ?a way to educate the broader public about what happened Does it have to be a physical place or can it be a website experience? ? Does it have to be in one location or can it be everywhere at once? ? Does it need staff and funding or can it all be volunteers putting in their time and money? Do we involve the Poles in Poland (eg, Institute of National Remembrance) and the Polonia organisations, and if so how? -- Stefan Wisniowski Moderator, Kresy-Siberia From: JCBSERV@... Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:51:48 EST To: Kresy-Siberia@... Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: SURVIVORS of the War Dear Janie and all, I have been thinking about this situation. ?I do feel that our ancestors need to be recognized, I think the world needs to know the horrors that they went through. ?We didn't learn about such things when I was in school. ?The Holocaust, yes, we learned about that, but I never knew what my family suffered! ?I was a young girl when my cousin Aniela and her family arrived in the US. ?She was a beautiful blonde girl of about 16, and I remember thinking when I met her that she was well named, for she looked like an angel to me. ?All that I knew about her was that she and her parents were "Displaced Persons". ?Well, I knew that displaced meant something similar to being misplaced, but that a DISplaced person was put someplace deliberately, whereas something MISplaced was probably put someplace by accident. ?That didn't tell me where she was displaced from, or why, or by whom. ?Maybe the family felt the children were too young to understand, but Aniela was only 6 when she was "displaced". ??I was very proud of my father, for he worked for Gdynia America Lines at that time, and he "helped" Aniela and her parents to come to the US. ?I knew that that was an important thing for him to do. ?But I think all I really thought was that they lived in Poland, and wanted to come to the US because so much of the family was already here! Since all of the family lived in Boston, and my parents and I lived in NJ, I didn't see much of Aniela as I was growing up. ?It wasn't until I started doing my genealogy that I discovered that they had been in Siberia!!! ?In 1998, I went to Boston, with the express wish to see and speak with Aniela's mother. ?I wanted to know about Siberia. ?Unfortunately, she died the day my tickets arrived in the mail. ?Two weeks before I was supposed to leave on my trip! But, I did get to see Aniela. ?She didn't have much to say, she said she was only a child at the time, and children don't perceive things the way adults do. ?She did say that she remembered walking! to Iran! ?WALKING!!! ?She remembered her sister's death on the train to Siberia, she was a toddler and was torn from her mother's arms, and thrown out the window of the moving train by a soldier!!!! ?She didn't remember much about it, and her reaction to it was that her sister was there, then she wasn't! ?I think she didn't really understand at the time, what was happening. ?Her other sister, the twin of the one who was killed, died in Iran, of disease. ?She spoke more about that sister's death. ?She was there, she was older, about 12 by then, and she understood what happened to that sister. ?I think she really didn't understand at the time what had happened to the baby. I speak of these things, because the Poles suffered atrocities just as the Jews did, but we never knew about it! ?I always believed that Siberia was just a HUGE prison, for Russian criminals. ?Even as I grew older, I didn't really know much about it. ?I learned that some of my grandmother's family had been sent there, but I really didn't know the full implications of that! It wasn't until I found a cousin in Poland, who is also from my grandmother's side of the family, that I realized that my relatives had suffered such terrible things at the hands of others. ?Then I joined this list, and that's where I learned more than I ever knew about the Russian horrors! ?I never heard of Kazakhstan until I joined this list. ?Then, about a week after I joined the list, I discovered that my grandfather's side of the family, his siblings, had been sent THERE! ?I am still learning about that. ?And I am learning from THIS LIST!! There is not much out there to help us. ??Unless you know exactly what you are looking for, you won't find it just by going to your library. ?YES, we should have some kind of register for those who were victims of the camps. ?YES, we should do something to make the world aware of what really happened there, and YES, we need a way to find those who were taken to the camps, and never returned to their homeland! ? I am not the one to say exactly WHAT it is that we should do, but I definitely feel that we should do something. ?I don't think that the Holocaust Museum is the place for us. ?I believe that it is just for the Jews who were victims of the Nazi's idea of the "perfect world". ?But I do feel that we have an obligation to our ancestors to make the world aware of what happened to them at the hands of the Russians. ? I live in a small town in South Carolina, I think I am the only Pole in town! ?There is not a lot of interaction between us yankees, and those who are native to the south. ?But, there is a small college nearby, where I went last week to hear Lech Walesa, and I was truly expecting to be one of maybe 10 people there. ?I was amazed to find a packed house!!! ?And to see so many Polish looking people there! ?I had spoken to a professor of chemistry who is from Czestohowa. ?she translated a letter for me. ?She is the one who introduced Lech Walesa, in Polish AND in English!! ?I think that I would like to try to contact her again, and see what she has to say about our situation. ?I also know that there are some Polish students at this little Baptist college!! ?I will try to make some contact with them as well. ?Maybe they can help. ?Maybe they can tell us more. ?That is supposing that they even KNOW anything about what the Russians did. As for Janie's original question, yes, the Museum in Washington is really geared mainly for Jews, survivors, and those who were killed by the Nazis. ?We don't need to steal their thunder. What we need is to find organizers like they have!!! ?I think that's the difference. ?They were organized, there were people who wanted to make sure the world knew what happened to them. ?Our people didn't get to come to the US, they either died, or they went someplace else. ?They just wanted to forget!! We need help with this. ?I am open to suggestions! ?And I thank you ALL for all you have taught me in this short time! Jan Birkner ========Original Message======== Subj: ??Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: SURVIVORS of the War ??? Date: ??10/21/01 4:31:00 PM Eastern Standard Time ?? From:? ? jmicchelli@... Reply-to: Kresy-Siberia@... To:? ? Kresy-Siberia@... ??? ??? So it may be a flawed institution, and if it is only for Jews, then we should obviously not register non-Jewish family there.? I think we should probably investigate this a bit more.? I welcome other opinions. Dear Stefan and other group members, here are some of my thoughts, while the institution may be flawed, I don' t think we need to turn away, checking it out further is definitely worth a try.? Jan mentioned that she was there, what are your thoughts, was it geared strictly to the Jews or was there a feeling that other nationalities also suffered?? Of course the public is interested in the Holocaust and will flock to such a place, it's all over the history books; the plight of Poles to Siberia is not in the books. But it doesn't mean that getting the story out there now is too late! I have an excerpt from a newspaper article dated 9/19/1977, "In 1990 Joseph Wardzala was among the FIRST CATHOLICS to videotape an oral history with the museum.? His 30 minute talk can be viewed in the museum's Wexner Learning Center.? The museum plans to offer a multimedia presentation including clips from Wardzala's oral history to high school across the United States via the internet." ? Just think what that would mean if we could get someone from the group in on this 'multimedia presentation out to high schools"............ janie ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial Click Here! ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? +?? Research, Remembrance, Recognition? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? Websites:? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia? +? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? http:/www.AForgottenOdyssey.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. +? ? 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