Kent

Would be a great story. ?Although I believe that we should recognise that the US was generous enough to transport and feed these refugees from India to Mexico... ?interested members might visit the Colonia Santa Rosa collection in our gallery for some historical documentation...

http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/albums.php?&set_albumListPage=2

Stefan Wisniowski

re: Has anyone in the group tried to suggest to the History Channel
to do a program on Kresy_Siberia??? (Zyg)


To include perhaps tales of a US troopship filled with women and
children going to Los Angeles and perhaps some analysis why the USA
wouldn't take refugees but Mexico did.

Seems this list could come up with a script storyboard that would
prove quite interesting.

Kent Christensen
Albuquerque, NM, USA

a link on '...walki Zydow w roznych wojskach na swiecie ...'

Tomasz Iwanowski






--- Tilford Bartman <bartmant@...> wrote: >

Eve5J@... wrote:

Sheila -
I was not aware that when a Jew became a Communist, they could somehow
magically stop being a Jew. According to you, a real Jew would never
go Red. According to you, only "assimilated Jews" did this--never a
true Jew, alluding that assimilated Jews should be excused from the
sin of becoming Communists since they were assimilated? Very
interesting concept, but it is true that many Jews from all walks of
life did in fact become Communists, did in fact "push" the deportees
on the trains, were responsible for the roundups and fingerpointing
causing deportation, were members of the NKVD, did brutally torture,
and more. Some of these same Jews were later: deported themselves
after being duped by the Soviets into doing their dirty work, killed
by the Soviets in the fifties (some after attaining high rank in the
Communist party), or murdered by the Nazis. After the Poles were
gotten rid of, these Communist Jews were often given Polish homes in
which they and their families lived! Some of these very same
Communist Jews managed to escape both the Soviets and Nazis and later
fled Poland and the USSR, joining the Anders army and their fellow
countrymen who they had previously turned on, and then promptly
deserted this Army. To these I say, "to each his own," but please do
not write such horrific, inflammatory anti-Polish statements. I found
your post to this list highly offensive.

You wrote that the author of the memoir passed the fitness tests. I
am quite certain that if he had in fact passed the fitness tests, he
would have been accepted into the Polish Army Under British Command.
My own grandfather was initially accepted into the Anders Army, but
was prevented from leaving the Middle East to participate in the
fighting in Europe. All people, after their incarceration, were in
very poor physical condition. The vast majority were at death's door;
there were many that did not make it into the Army, but you will not
hear them falsely justifying their nonacceptance by cries of
anti-Semitism.

It is highly ironic that at this very time of induction into the Army,
people died by the hundreds of thousands while waiting at the
induction points. Many died immediately after their Army induction.
Many also died upon stepping onto free Persian soil. Not only did
physical fitness tests have to be passed, but also health
examinations. Many were turned away of all ethnicities! It is a
wonder that any were in fact accepted into this Army! The entire Army
required months of rehabilitation before joining the fight due to
starvation and disease.

You did not give the url for the site you referred to in your post,
but if it is "Poland's Holocaust,"
, our late group member
Chris Gladun's website, this site really opened my eyes, and this was
also my family's war history. As you can see from the pictures at
this excellent site, the Jewish people were not the only living
skeletons during the war! Chris's site is a lasting legacy and
testament to what occurred.

Please realize that there are good and bad people of all ethnicities
and religions, including the Jewish. It has always seemed very odd to
me that while our grandparents' generation lived, one never read such
statements from either Jew or Pole. Now that those who were true
adults during the war have died and can no longer speak for
themselves, there are some who are trying their absolute hardest to
rewrite the truthful history of that most awful time in which ALL
Polish citizens suffered greatly. Now usually when the truth is
bravely written, cries of
"anti-Semitism" are inevitably heard.

Eve Jesionka Jankowicz

Can't resist adding my two cents, but right now do not have a lot of
time for a lengthy reply.

Not only are there some bad people of all ethnicity's. Even more more
sadly there were during this horrible time essentially good people both
among ethnically Polish and ethnically Jewish who did bad things. This
is the lousy truth!

What's needed now 60 plus years latter is a little more understanding
and less blaming but the former is most often in short supply.

I'm Jewish and the Jewish side of this issue I understand very well,
including the sad fact that among the Jews the Soviets found many of
their collaborators, while large segments of the Jewish population were
very skeptical that any good would come of this new order and some even
quietly opposed it, given their situation many initially saw little
alternative than to hope for the best from it, but it very quickly
became clear that their best hopes would not be realized in this
situation. Many Jews were arrested and sent East by a fellow Jew. I
think had what came next (the Nazi holocaust) not been such a
cataclysmic and overshadowing event this entire issue of "Red Jews"would
have gotten even more attention and open discussion in Jewish sources.
Unfortunately due in part to a long history of propaganda and pretty
gross distortions about this issue by people who obviously have no good
intentions toward Jews as a group, many Jews are very sensitive about
this subject and dismiss it all as anti semitic trash not realizing that
there are some real issues there.

The Polish end of this I know less well though I have learned some
stuff. I try to understand and not be too quick to judge or blame, but
of course sometimes it is hard. I've seen Chris Gladun's site and it is
very well done and a powerful testimony that I can relate to on a
personal and human level. Some of the material there while likely to be
uncomfortable for Jews, is not from what I've seen pointedly anti
semitic. I would have to admit to frankly not being knowledgeable enough
to know if the information there pertaining to involvement of Jewish
people in Soviet crimes in question is always accurate or beyond
reasonable dispute.

Anyway this is my two cents, and I have no more time to devote to this
right now.

Tilford Bartman, www.zabludow.com

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now!

Dear Jagna,

I read your message with great interest as I am only recently learning/understanding some of the complex issues of this period of history. You spoke of the failure to receive compensation from the Polish governments. Forgive my ignorance, but why would compensation not be sought from the Soviets, as it was they who took the property and imposed communist regimes?

Regards, Ken Fedzin.


Finally, the thorny issue of property… Both my parents, as well as ALL their friends
who come from the area near Lwow, lost their property irrevocably when the Soviets
came; their houses with all their contents, their land, orchards, livestock – all that
their families worked for for generations. I am sure this is the situation of most
members of this group. Despite years of appeals to the Polish governments for some
kind of compensation, so far they have not seen a penny….
Similarly, most people who owned houses on the territory of today’s Poland, lost
them after the war to the communists – and, again, many members of my own family
did not get a penny of compensation; ironically, they spent years passing their own houses every day without the right to enter them; they were occupied by strangers assigned by the communist government...
Like the Jewish people who have lost their property they seem to be fighting a losing battle, and are quite bitter about it. But the truth is that after the WW2 devastation, and then years of waste and poverty under communism, Poland today is a very poor country
and simply cannot afford to put wrongs to right.

Well done and a resounding YES to keepinf memory and info flowing.
I will be in Orlando Disney to sing for Thanksgiving
God Bless you all



Bye 4 now Hela.

From: Casimir Majewski <kmaj31@...>
Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@...
To: Kresy-Siberia@...
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Memories of WWII!
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:41:04 -0800 (PST)

Hello All:
Last week I was in St. Petersburg, Florida. I happen to be invited to be on panel discussion on the occasion of Veteran's Day, at Stetson University Law School. This discussion was sponsored by the Dept. of Graduate & International Studies at this University. Four people were on the panel, all survivors of WWII in one way or another. There was a Hungarian, now a Judge in the US; an American pilot who flew a U.S. B-24 bombing mission over Europe; a German Luftwaffe pilot now living in Florida and myself a Pole survivor of Kresy-Siberia. We four, told our story. I related my experiences and was very well received an appreciated by the Law students. In fact I am invited to repeat my story to the Law faculty in February. I am always proud to speak about my past and about the past of the thousands of other people like myself that have endured this odyssey.We must not forget and generations to come must be told.
Cas, Milford, CT USA



---------------------------------
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Dear Sheila,
It is a pity that you treat the Polish-Jewish topic in such emotional
terms: such an attitude seems only to confirm the unhealthy prejudices rather than try
to find the real understanding of the problems – the only way to healing past wounds.
You may well have found ‘Go My Son’ an upsetting read, but I have talked to many Jews, who described NORMAL, POSITIVE experiences of Jews in the Anders Army – as indeed there are many books written in the spirit of admirable objectivity about the Holocaust itself. It is just the question of being interested in reading them AS WELL.
I am going to post on A Forgotten Odyssey website a selection of documents from
The Sikorski Institute in London, which show beyond any doubt that it was the
Soviets who forbade the Polish army to take Jews on and evacuate them from Russia. Those 4.000 who managed to get out were either on ‘special permission’, extracted from the Soviets by the efforts of the Polish authorities, or were ‘smuggled out’ at the risk to the rest of the deportees in the convoys. All this is in the documents – as
well as a determined fight of the Poles for their citizens of Jewish origin to be let out.
We must also remember that the number of people allowed to leave Russia with gen Anders was a drop in the ocean, and that thousands upon thousands of men, women and
children – some of them Jewish, but mostly Polish – were left behind, to continue
their suffering for a few more years. My own grandfather, who made his way from
a labour camp, was also left behind, as, at the age of 56, he was ‘too old’ for the army –
and he was a Polish judge, and a catholic!
Finally, the thorny issue of property… Both my parents, as well as ALL their friends
who come from the area near Lwow, lost their property irrevocably when the Soviets
came; their houses with all their contents, their land, orchards, livestock – all that
their families worked for for generations. I am sure this is the situation of most
members of this group. Despite years of appeals to the Polish governments for some
kind of compensation, so far they have not seen a penny….
Similarly, most people who owned houses on the territory of today’s Poland, lost
them after the war to the communists – and, again, many members of my own family
did not get a penny of compensation; ironically, they spent years passing their own houses every day without the right to enter them; they were occupied by strangers assigned by the communist government...
Like the Jewish people who have lost their property they seem to be fighting a losing battle, and are quite bitter about it. But the truth is that after the WW2 devastation, and then years of waste and poverty under communism, Poland today is a very poor country
and simply cannot afford to put wrongs to right. This has nothing to do with anti-Semitism – after all, the present Government has several high ranking members who
are of Jewish origin, who, despite that fact, have been elected, time and time again,
in free and democratic elections by the allegedly rabidly anti-Semitic electorate.
I think the above facts are available in books and essays, it is just the question of
looking for the ‘whole picture’ of those complex and tragic times, rather than extricating
personal experiences and generalizing them, thus making them into purely ‘Jewish issues’.
I am now researching the subject, and will get in touch when I have completed a list of reading which might interest you.
Finally, I wanted to stress I am always appalled by anti-Semitic statements, wherever they are (funnily enough, I hear them more in England than in Poland), and always try to make a stand against them – as I try to stand up against unfair or inaccurate accusations
against the Poles. Prejudices are always wrong – either way.
All the best,
Jagna

Try Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/

From: "Vantom"

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Eve5J@... wrote:

Sheila -
I was not aware that when a Jew became a Communist, they could somehow magically stop being a Jew.?? According to you, a real Jew would never go Red.? According to you, only "assimilated Jews" did this--never a true Jew, alluding that assimilated Jews should be excused from the sin of becoming Communists since they were assimilated?? Very interesting concept, but it is true that many Jews from all walks of life did in fact become Communists, did in fact "push" the deportees on the trains, were responsible for the roundups and fingerpointing causing deportation, were members of the NKVD, did brutally torture, and more.? Some of these same Jews were later:? deported themselves after being duped by the Soviets into doing their dirty work, killed by the Soviets in the fifties (some after attaining high rank in the Communist party), or murdered by the Nazis.? After the Poles were gotten rid of, these Communist Jews were often given Polish homes in which they and their families lived!? Some of these very same Communist Jews managed to escape both the Soviets and Nazis and later fled Poland and the USSR, joining the Anders army and their fellow countrymen who they had previously turned on, and then promptly deserted this Army.? To these I say, "to each his own," but please do not write such horrific, inflammatory anti-Polish statements.? I found your post to this list highly offensive.

You wrote that the author of the memoir passed the fitness tests.? I am quite certain that if he had in fact passed the fitness tests, he would have been accepted into the Polish Army Under British Command.? My own grandfather was initially accepted into the Anders Army, but was prevented from leaving the Middle East to participate in the fighting in Europe.? All people, after their incarceration, were in very poor physical condition.? The vast majority were at death's door; there were many that did not make it into the Army, but you will not hear them falsely justifying their nonacceptance by cries of anti-Semitism.?

It is highly ironic that at this very time of induction into the Army, people died by the hundreds of thousands while waiting at the induction points.? Many died immediately after their Army induction.? Many also died upon stepping onto free Persian soil.? Not only did physical fitness tests have to be passed, but also health examinations.? Many were turned away of all ethnicities!? It is a wonder that any were in fact accepted into this Army!? The entire Army required months of rehabilitation before joining the fight due to starvation and disease.

You did not give the url for the site you referred to in your post, but if it is "Poland's Holocaust," , our late group member Chris Gladun's website, this site really opened my eyes, and this was also my family's war history.? As you can see from the pictures at this excellent site, the Jewish people were not the only living skeletons during the war!? Chris's site is a lasting legacy and testament to what occurred.?

Please realize that there are good and bad people of all ethnicities and religions, including the Jewish.? It has always seemed very odd to me that while our grandparents' generation lived, one never read such statements from either Jew or Pole.? Now that those who were true adults during the war have died and can no longer speak for themselves, there are some who are trying their absolute hardest to rewrite the truthful history of that most awful time in which ALL Polish citizens suffered greatly.? Now usually when the truth is bravely written, cries of
"anti-Semitism" are inevitably heard.

Eve Jesionka Jankowicz

Can't resist adding my two cents, but right now do not have a lot of time for a lengthy reply.

Not only are there some bad people of all ethnicity's. Even more more sadly there were during this horrible time essentially good people both among ethnically Polish and ethnically Jewish who did bad things. This is the lousy truth!

What's needed now 60 plus years latter is a little more understanding and less blaming but the former is most often in short supply.

I'm Jewish and the Jewish side of this issue I understand very well, including the sad fact that among the Jews the Soviets found many of their collaborators, while large segments of the Jewish population were very skeptical that any good would come of this new order and some even quietly opposed it, given their situation many initially saw little alternative than to hope for the best from it, but it very quickly became clear that their best hopes would not be realized in this situation.? Many Jews were arrested and sent East by a fellow Jew. I think had what came next (the Nazi holocaust) not been such a cataclysmic and overshadowing event this entire issue of "Red Jews"would have gotten even more attention and open discussion in Jewish sources. Unfortunately due in part to a long history of propaganda and pretty gross distortions about this issue by people who obviously have no good intentions toward Jews as a group, many Jews are very sensitive about this subject and dismiss it all as anti semitic trash not realizing that there are some real issues there.

The Polish end of this I know less well though I have learned some stuff. I try to understand and not be too quick to judge or blame, but of course sometimes it is hard. I've seen Chris Gladun's site and it is very well done and a powerful testimony that I can relate to on a personal and human level. Some of the material there while likely to be uncomfortable for Jews, is not from what I've seen pointedly anti semitic. I would have to admit to frankly not being knowledgeable enough to know if the information there pertaining to involvement of Jewish people in Soviet crimes in question is always accurate or beyond reasonable dispute.

Anyway this is my two cents, and I have no more time to devote to this right now.

Tilford Bartman,

Hello Group:

My commentary: Both communists and facists were excellent
provocateurs and what Sheila calls her "grouse" lives up to those
standards.

Sincerely,
Halina Trevelyan


--- In Kresy-Siberia@..., "Sheila GROSSNASS" <s@g...>
wrote:

Dear Kresy-Siberia Group
There has been a lot of interest in the subject of Jews in Anders

Army and I

would like to add "my bit" for the interest and information of the

group.

There is a wonderful book written by Chaim Shapiro called "Go My

Son"

published a few years ago by Feldheim Publishers, N.Y. USA in

which he

writes about his struggle to be accepted into the Anders Army and

what he

came up against as a Jew! After travelling halfway across

Russia and

passing all the fitness tests, he and many others was given a

document

saying that he was not accepted.
Read it for yourself and you will see what happened and what the

attitude

towards Jews really was!
Re: Polish Holocaust website: -
I came across this by first finding Stalin's Ethnic Cleansing on

Google and

then going into "links" and clicking on Poland's Holocaust.
After scrolling down "excerpts & Selections" to Page 2, I came

across a lot

of anti-semitic statements which are totally untrue and

unproven. There

were no separate Jewish brigades in the Red Army who would go

around

murdering Poles! Of course, there were many communists who were

formally

of Jewish origin but they had long given up being Jews and were

totally

assimilated! At one time Stalin used Jews to inform on Jews -

but there

was no question of murder and torture!
At the same time look at what has happened in Poland today, after

the

holocaust! All Jewish property belonging to those murdered and

to the

present day survivors is being used today by Poles! Survivors

relate how

some went back to their homes after they had lost their whole

families and

were murdered there by Poles who were afraid they would have to

give up

someone else's property! We can go on and on about this

subject - and the

Polish Government today is doing nothing about Jewish Property!

Sorry to

be such a grouse - but these are the facts. My family, too, own

property in

Poland - which we have no access to!
Best wishes
Sheila

Has anyone in the group tried to suggest to the History Channel to do
a program on Kresy_Siberia???

I recently send an email to the History Channel (for those who might
might not know, it is a TV cable channel that does historical shows.
Link is ) suggesting that they do a
progam on Poles sent to Siberia. They "cordially" replied (see
below) . Maybe if more Kresy-Siberia members would email to the
History Channel they might consider it important enogh to show.

Zyg


Dear Mr. Martynowicz,

Thank you for your recent e-mail regarding programming on The History
Channel.

We also appreciate the program suggestion mentioned in your e-mail.
We
will certainly keep your ideas in mind as we acquire future
programming for
The History Channel. Viewer correspondence is the best way for us to
know
what subjects interest our viewers.

Cordially,
Viewer Relations
thc.viewerrelations@...

Dear Sheila,
I did not read the book Go My Son, but will as soon as I can find it,
but let me add my two cents to the discussion. On July 28,1942 I, and
hundreds of other ex-Polish citizens, arrived by train to Guzar and
were marched to the Polish Army camp on the ouskirts of the town.
After checking our identities we were deloused, given uniforms and
assigned to tents. On Aug. 4,1942 we faced the selection commission,
which included medical check-up, and we were assigned to the various
branches of the army. Sick people were taken to the field hospital.
At no time we were required to pass a fitness test.
In the morning of Aug. 9,1942 I was at the Polish Army Headquarters
in the town of Guzar and I heard the orderly corporal Begin tell the
commanding colonel that some Jews were willing to pay one half pound
of gold to be accepted into the Polish Army. I asume that if some of
them did this then they had the right to leave the army once they
reached Persia or Palestine, and should not be considered deserters.

Regards,

Roman




-- In Kresy-Siberia@..., "Sheila GROSSNASS" <s@g...>
wrote:

Dear Kresy-Siberia Group
There has been a lot of interest in the subject of Jews in Anders

Army and I

would like to add "my bit" for the interest and information of the

group.

There is a wonderful book written by Chaim Shapiro called "Go My

Son"

published a few years ago by Feldheim Publishers, N.Y. USA in which

he

writes about his struggle to be accepted into the Anders Army and

what he

came up against as a Jew! After travelling halfway across Russia

and

passing all the fitness tests, he and many others was given a

document

saying that he was not accepted.
Read it for yourself and you will see what happened and what the

attitude

towards Jews really was!
Re: Polish Holocaust website: -
I came across this by first finding Stalin's Ethnic Cleansing on

Google and

then going into "links" and clicking on Poland's Holocaust.
After scrolling down "excerpts & Selections" to Page 2, I came

across a lot

of anti-semitic statements which are totally untrue and unproven.

There

were no separate Jewish brigades in the Red Army who would go around
murdering Poles! Of course, there were many communists who were

formally

of Jewish origin but they had long given up being Jews and were

totally

assimilated! At one time Stalin used Jews to inform on Jews - but

there

was no question of murder and torture!
At the same time look at what has happened in Poland today, after

the

holocaust! All Jewish property belonging to those murdered and

to the

present day survivors is being used today by Poles! Survivors

relate how

some went back to their homes after they had lost their whole

families and

were murdered there by Poles who were afraid they would have to

give up

someone else's property! We can go on and on about this subject -

and the

Polish Government today is doing nothing about Jewish Property!

Sorry to

be such a grouse - but these are the facts. My family, too, own

property in

Poland - which we have no access to!
Best wishes
Sheila

---

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---

Do you Yahoo!?

Dear Steve,

I enclose a copy of my e-mail dated 07/11/03.
I would be grateful if you could arrange for the data concerning my book
Straws in the Wind to be updated as outlined below.
For those who also wish to visit the book website www.strawsinthewind.com
<> please note that this has also been
recently updated.

Kind regards,

Eugene Krajewski

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Dear Kresy-Siberia Group
There has been a lot of interest in the subject of Jews in Anders Army and I
would like to add "my bit" for the interest and information of the group.
There is a wonderful book written by Chaim Shapiro called "Go My Son"
published a few years ago by Feldheim Publishers, N.Y. USA in which he
writes about his struggle to be accepted into the Anders Army and what he
came up against as a Jew! After travelling halfway across Russia and
passing all the fitness tests, he and many others was given a document
saying that he was not accepted.
Read it for yourself and you will see what happened and what the attitude
towards Jews really was!
Re: Polish Holocaust website: -
I came across this by first finding Stalin's Ethnic Cleansing on Google and
then going into "links" and clicking on Poland's Holocaust.
After scrolling down "excerpts & Selections" to Page 2, I came across a lot
of anti-semitic statements which are totally untrue and unproven. There
were no separate Jewish brigades in the Red Army who would go around
murdering Poles! Of course, there were many communists who were formally
of Jewish origin but they had long given up being Jews and were totally
assimilated! At one time Stalin used Jews to inform on Jews - but there
was no question of murder and torture!
At the same time look at what has happened in Poland today, after the
holocaust! All Jewish property belonging to those murdered and to the
present day survivors is being used today by Poles! Survivors relate how
some went back to their homes after they had lost their whole families and
were murdered there by Poles who were afraid they would have to give up
someone else's property! We can go on and on about this subject - and the
Polish Government today is doing nothing about Jewish Property! Sorry to
be such a grouse - but these are the facts. My family, too, own property in
Poland - which we have no access to!
Best wishes
Sheila

Please unsubscribe me till December 1st.
Barbara

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