|
Zee <ratsheldon@...> deleted the album DUO 800S Australia
|
Hello Zee
I was sending you the missing drawing rudder house drawing on 18, January.?
You never explained what you missed more. If you need more information or
clarification you could ask.
Bernd
|
Bernd has refused to cooperate and to deliver complete plans that I paid for . miserable amateur plans without details and descriptions?anyways . I feel sorry that I wasted my boat building on this .I will report him to Duckworks and warn ppl on forums to rethink building?one of his boats to avoid major disappointments?
|
You have ignored a bunch of my emails where I was asking you for missing drawings , no response , while I can see you are online . I never got any rudder case drawings from you , nor did you say that you sent some . If you did send them in January last year , how hard would it be to inform me about it when you noticed that I am asking for the drawings again ? But in general?the plans I got were incomplete in many places and some sheets are confusingly from another boat . Another really bad thing is that your plywood material list? is doubled ! As a result?of that? I have about 14 extra sheets of 9 mm ply . the drawing that you sent of missing bulkhead 5 was all wrong dimensions (check that , its still there ) , i had to plot it myself at the end ,?or I would have a very strange looking hull? . Next is your mast clamp . you never noticed that it can not possibly work because?it can not turn at all the way you designed it . So I had to reinvent the system to secure the masts , after I came with the solution I have seen on the internet the? same system on many other free standing rigs . I am surprised that the best you came with is a dodgy plywood clamp that can not possibly work . I demand again that you send me a proper drawing for the rudder case , without excuses , and rectify your mistake? ?
Hello Zee
I was sending you the missing drawing rudder house drawing on 18, January.?
You never explained what you missed more. If you need more information or
clarification you could ask.
Bernd
|
Hi Zee
First and for all. I did not receive your emails. I checked this again this morning. Not in the SPAM folder (which I do not check anyway) not in the DELETED folder.?
I have sent you a private email. This is also the email that works.
The clamp works by the way, But you need an inspection hatch on the bulkhead. Of course, there are also other solutions. This is only aside. I will check the other drawing.?
As I mentioned in the private email. I do not know what you want in the end. I am still here to help. I am just known for that in this business
Bernd
?
|
Zee, I? am attaching the sheet I have on the rudder and tiller arrangements. Not having built or even started the project I am not sure that it will be helpful. I hope you are able to complete the build and reach out if you want to problem solve around the missing design. I am a creative problem solver and willing to help.
Scott
You have ignored a bunch of my emails where I was asking you for missing drawings , no response , while I can see you are online . I never got any rudder case drawings from you , nor did you say that you sent some . If you did send them in January last year , how hard would it be to inform me about it when you noticed that I am asking for the drawings again ? But in general?the plans I got were incomplete in many places and some sheets are confusingly from another boat . Another really bad thing is that your plywood material list? is doubled ! As a result?of that? I have about 14 extra sheets of 9 mm ply . the drawing that you sent of missing bulkhead 5 was all wrong dimensions (check that , its still there ) , i had to plot it myself at the end ,?or I would have a very strange looking hull? . Next is your mast clamp . you never noticed that it can not possibly work because?it can not turn at all the way you designed it . So I had to reinvent the system to secure the masts , after I came with the solution I have seen on the internet the? same system on many other free standing rigs . I am surprised that the best you came with is a dodgy plywood clamp that can not possibly work . I demand again that you send me a proper drawing for the rudder case , without excuses , and rectify your mistake? ?
Hello Zee
I was sending you the missing drawing rudder house drawing on 18, January.?
You never explained what you missed more. If you need more information or
clarification you could ask.
Bernd
|
All I ever wanted is complete plans , I?dont?know any other way to explain that to you? after trying hard for?more than a year . Just send me the rudder case drawing that I did not get with the plans . just post it here , now ,? it is that simple?
Hi Zee
First and for all. I did not receive your emails. I checked this again this morning. Not in the SPAM folder (which I do not check anyway) not in the DELETED folder.?
I have sent you a private email. This is also the email that works.
The clamp works by the way, But you need an inspection hatch on the bulkhead. Of course, there are also other solutions. This is only aside. I will check the other drawing.?
As I mentioned in the private email. I do not know what you want in the end. I am still here to help. I am just known for that in this business
Bernd
?
|
Zee
I mentioned the email problem. I can not say more as I did not received all your emails. I was searching, but I do not have them.
The rudder housing I have to send you as mentioned.?
Sorry about the plywood mistake I will rectify that, it helps you nothing, I am sorry.
To make the best from it from my side.
You have the list of drawings. Send me these and tell me what you miss. I will, of course, send you these drawings.?
If you need advice, the same. People here know that I am always willing to help.
Bernd
|
Hi Scott
Thanks for trying to help. But I believe Zee means something different.
Thanks anyway.
Bernd
|
Again you sent me those same? drawings that?I?have , and you already sent?them once or twice before , and I told you so a year ago when this saga started? . One is not the rudder case drawing (?) . The other is not the case of my?boat and is totally?unfinished no details ,no tiller arms ) . ?It looks to me like you don't?have that drawing at all . hence all this fuss because?you can not deliver . ?So here I am asking again? ------- Send me the rudder case drawing ! -------- with the description of all the parts and all the rest of the details that one would normally?expect to??find in proper plans . ?I will repeat this again just to make sure you understand what I want ;??------- Send me the rudder case drawing ! ------? a proper plan? If you don't?have it you better get busy fast and draw some decent plans .? I really had enough of this game you play . just give me the missing? drawings?finally??! ?You know , sometimes late at night I can not sleep thinking about the boat , plans (lack of them )? and troubles I have with it , and then I have this sort of a dream when you are not real Bernd Kohler the designer? ,but? some imposter who stole Bernds? personality?, and real Bernd is now being held a prisoner , tied up in some basement . ?Because?let's face it , you sure don't?sound like a boat designer , I should know , I dealt with quite a few designers in my life , and I have seen many plans, none as miserable and incomplete? as yours? P.S. ------- Send me the REAL rudder case drawing ! ------?
Hi Scott
Thanks for trying to help. But I believe Zee means something different.
Thanks anyway.
Bernd
|
?
I understand you are mad. Is your good right. But as mentioned, it is not my mistake that you can not get my replays.?
I attached here the rudder housing drawing. Unusual, but I do not see another way. Because I have sent you this drawing at 18/01/2022
I do not know what you need more on drawings. So to see have you already 3/4 of the boat built with the plans.
A remark to tiller. I do not draw them anymore. Because most builders have here their own preferences.?
That my drawings for boats meant for amateur constructions are different agree. But I think, that, after more than 1000 amateur boatbuilders built boats with my plans, the can be not so bad.
Live is expensive, I try to offer my plans for reasonable costs. That the given freedom for own expression is true. I do not tell how to turn a screw in a screw-hole. Sorry about that.?
I could make a stupid remark in your direction, but it is not my way to go under the waistline.
Bernd Kohler
|
hi to all
great respond Bernd
,Zee if you whant real Professional building plan be ready to pay a arm and a leg for it ,i am civil ingenior and yes plan from Bernd have some mistake some parts are hard to figure out some too much info some miss?
but plan are there as a very good base ,i already buy kd860 plan and yes somme part are not clear on how to ,but after a wild it s become more clear?
i take a look at the draw from Bernd send you? look clear to me ,
try to be calm ans be clear on whats you are looking ,as all we see from your demand are not?
by the way? dont ask/talk like that,you will reseve nothing from human to act like that ,your are frustred ..ok but when ask with respect you will receive better?
sorry all for my bad engish?
--
stephane blanchette?
montreal canada kd860
but will build k1000
|
Hi Stefano, I agree with your message. This is a forum and could have had all the support from me and all of you too.
Certainly Bernd's plans are cheap for this I have bought over the years: KD860, KD ECO POWER 750, DUO800 and DUO900 and I don't think that from other designers (I don't want to name names) I don't think I was able to get away with less than 20,000 euros with 4 projects ...
Next project I would like very much the KD DUO 105 always removable but beautiful.
I also make changes to dead works but with Bernd we have always confronted constructively both on the forum and in private. The KD 860 still looks like it floats here as well as navigating well and when it goes to the bottom I will warn you here on the forum .... :-)
|
I want to react to this post because its tone is quite an exception in all I have read so far on this forum. It could have got me really worried as I am going to embark in that long project of building a boat based on Bernd design with quite a few modification from the original KD860 design. I have not committed yet to it but about to in the next couple of weeks.
I took the liberty to have a look at the drawing that Bernd sent. From my professional experience as an industrial designer and mechanical engineering I would say that the precision of this DXF is equivalent to a properly hand drawn plan on a drafting table of yore. It does not have the precision of a 3D CAD model where all features are matched to perfection. Now, for an amateur builder, a 3D CAD model would be totally overkill. The level of detail provided here would be more than sufficient for me to build that rudder case. There are a couple of features that would trigger a few questions for sure. I may try to add some damping feature to smoothen the end of travel of the rudder when it retracts under the bungee's action. But nothing that I would quality as "bad quality".
Part of the fun in doing it oneself is the ability to understand how the systems work from handwork, how the boat is structured in its intimacy. A perfect CAD model may remove that desire to understand why it is done like that by just blindly following that "perfect plan". There is a part of appropriation of the design in the process. Looking at the pictures in the Photos folder is testament to the creativity of the builders. What is important is that the fundamentals are strong, that the boat will withstand the test of time and foul weather, that the boat will sail nicely and offer the features one is looking for. The price that Bernd is asking for his work and to access his knowledge and experience as well as maintaining an active online community to support its members is just a fantastic bargain.
@domenico: I really love the treatment you did to your KD860, the color scheme, the fine openings to let the light in, that italian flag running the length of the hull. Thanks for documenting all the process.
|
I would like to also chip in here in case other prospective builders are getting negative feelings about Bernd's boats.
Yes his plans are very economical. They have a lot of instruction attached when many other designers plans have absolutely nothing included except the line drawings. It is true that Bernd's instructions can be a little difficult to interpret. Please remember that English is not Bernd's first language . He does very well despite that.
I found, as have others, that a detail that seems elusive on a side drawing can spring to life on the fore and aft drawing of the same section of the boat. Keep studying the plans. But in the end Bernd is available to explain puzzling details, and also to help resolve details for modifications.?
There are often details that can be changed to suit the builder as long as structural rquirements are kept in mind. The more experienced the builder, the more adventurous one tends to be. I for example changed the main hatchway on my Duo 480 to copy a friends boat as it worked so well. I also changed my rudder box set up to resemble the old Paper Tiger catamaran system as I once owned that particular boat and loved and understood that particular system. Of course masts , rigging, and sails can be personalised to suit the builder or to take advantage of good second hand stuff that may be available. I also was able to take advantage of living near a hi tech boat building city and obtain carbon spars and tubing from the "reject" stock at various manufacturers.
I think the point I am trying to make is that the basics of Bernd's designs are very sound and as long as the structural elements are retained or not compromised then there remains the potential to achieve a very personalised version of whichever model you are building. I have seen first hand now the "in progress" and finished results of 3 of Bernds designs locally: the KD650 which I sailed on many times and love, Hamish's Eco 5, and of course David's beautiful Eco 6 (which i hope to get a sail on one of these days)
I also really like the bigger designs too especially the KD860 though I have no aspirations to attempt a major build.
In summary:?
Study the plans
Read as much about boat building in general if you have no experience
Be a nuisance to any of your friends who have got boat building experience
Plan your time and spend a lot of time thinking about the sequencing of each step
Approach any other builders from this forum by private message and ask for help or opinions if you need to . I did this and now I dont mind trying to assist others, which is partially why I created a blog for building my boat - long after I finished it
Remember: Bernd is your friend
|
Here you are, you are an engineer and you understand what kinds of projects.
I am a shipwright not an engineer and I am hardly know normal autocad ....
I'm sorry for Zee he had done a great job and I was curious to see how he built the central cabin. We hope he reconsiders.
Thanks for the compliments on the KD860 Italy built without modifying the living work and with the original deckhouse.
Look at this photo June 2021 Ciao
|
Hi Alain. I am reluctant to comment on this topic, however in my opinion all parties includiding Zee have valid points. Obviously Zee is extremely frustrated and not been able to get the information he requires. Maybe his post on the forum is a little extreme , but when you have invested a lot of time and money into a project and are starting to have doubts about the outcome, people become stressed and sometimes a bit irrational.
I have no experience with the boat that zee is building, but from building my kd860, there were a lot of mistakes in the plans. Some were obviouse typos and others were more fundamental. The general desighn concept and dimensions are textbook correct however. Some of the plans have unnecessary detail and others are completely lacking in fundamental detail, for example there is no information regarding the placement of water tanks, fuel tanks and batteries. Argue all you like, but were the heaviest items in a boat are located are a fundamental desighn issue in my opinion. Obviously the anti vortex panels were a joke, but not that difficult to rectify.?
On the positive side I found that Bernd always replied within 24hr of my emails. The plans are very cheap and the overall desighn is sound.
In my part of the world these plans would not be suitable for a proffesional builder, as our labour costs are so high, and the time wasted fixing mistakes and re engineering parts would become very expensive very quickly.
But in my situation, were I had limited funds, and used the plans as a rough guide only, they were probarbly the best compromise for my situation, as you certainly do get what you pay for when it comes to boat desighn.
Unfortunately the people on this forum that are doing quality work like patrick with his kd120 and Pete in Finland etc,? rarely comment on the forum. Others like Domenico use the forum to advertise there buissness and big note them selves. So it's difficult to get good reliable information.
In sumation , I love my little boat and am glad I built it. I hope Zee manages to sort out his problems and get his project finished. The plans aren't perfect, but you get what you pay for . Take every thing you read on a forum with a grain of salt and fact check before you proceed. ?I am sure to get a slew of abuse as usual from this post, however it just one persons opinion out of many. Cheers.......Andrew.
I want to react to this post because its tone is quite an exception in all I have read so far on this forum. It could have got me really worried as I am going to embark in that long project of building a boat based on Bernd design with quite a few modification from the original KD860 design. I have not committed yet to it but about to in the next couple of weeks.
I took the liberty to have a look at the drawing that Bernd sent. From my professional experience as an industrial designer and mechanical engineering I would say that the precision of this DXF is equivalent to a properly hand drawn plan on a drafting table of yore. It does not have the precision of a 3D CAD model where all features are matched to perfection. Now, for an amateur builder, a 3D CAD model would be totally overkill. The level of detail provided here would be more than sufficient for me to build that rudder case. There are a couple of features that would trigger a few questions for sure. I may try to add some damping feature to smoothen the end of travel of the rudder when it retracts under the bungee's action. But nothing that I would quality as "bad quality".
Part of the fun in doing it oneself is the ability to understand how the systems work from handwork, how the boat is structured in its intimacy. A perfect CAD model may remove that desire to understand why it is done like that by just blindly following that "perfect plan". There is a part of appropriation of the design in the process. Looking at the pictures in the Photos folder is testament to the creativity of the builders. What is important is that the fundamentals are strong, that the boat will withstand the test of time and foul weather, that the boat will sail nicely and offer the features one is looking for. The price that Bernd is asking for his work and to access his knowledge and experience as well as maintaining an active online community to support its members is just a fantastic bargain.
@domenico: I really love the treatment you did to your KD860, the color scheme, the fine openings to let the light in, that italian flag running the length of the hull. Thanks for documenting all the process.
|
I have been following the rather heated exchange regarding plan detail for Zee¡¯s catamaran. Like others I would like to also express my support and appreciation for Bernd and his designs. I am completely happy with my little Eco 6 catamaran. There is not really anything else available in the size range which has the features the Eco 6 has, it is a pretty amazing design really. I like bernds design approach. Each of designs are innovative, unique and there are some of his larger designs which I would love to build, but I am trying to be sensible and not begin another boat project. The cost of the plans was relatively inexpensive. Some other designers I have been interested in recently are selling their plans for twice the cost of Bernds plans, and sometimes more.? I found the plans generally easy to follow, I got the boat built and it looks like it should do! I was also pleased that when I was looking for an option to the designed daggerboards that Bernd offered the drawings for the little bilge keels at no extra charge, and what a great solution. I do not know of any other multihull designer who has come up with such an effective leeway preventer that does not even protrude beneath the hull of the boat. ? I am a reasonably experienced amateur boatbuilder so I was able to adapt or change things in the design to better suit my own needs and experience of what works, but I still kept within the spirit of the original design and obeyed the instruction to ¡®Keep it light¡¯. Someone has mentioned that there is no detail about where to put batteries and water tanks and the like. I don¡¯t think that matters because people will work out their own solutions based around interior layout, size of water tanks, weight of batteries etc. The important thing here is keep the weight down low and out of the ends of the boat. ? There is talk of some of the details such as measurements missing from plans. I wonder whether some CAD viewing programs especially the free ones, are not so good at displaying some of these details, and especially when converting to PDF files. ? But for me, if I was ever silly enough to build another boat, there are a couple of Bernds larger designs which really tempt me and I would be happy to purchase his plans and work with him again. ? Regards to all, ? David
|
I think you put it well, Andrew. Zee built a 50 footer, I believe. So he knows how. Transom hung rudder boxes are tricky for anyone, though. If I was putting tillers on mine, I would do the glass wrap around the rudders the same, and still use a ss rod with plastic around it and spacers to make the pin attachments the same, but I would do another outside glass over plastic wrap around the cassette, just 50mm wide or so, and attach the tiller to that and maybe put a pin at the aft end of it so it could tilt up or come off just in case, like a hobie cat tiller.?
I have not looked at your pictures in a while. I remember you made some solid looking tillers on transom hung rudder boxes, right??
Cheers
Patrick
|
Hi Andrew Klees I don't think I do business here on the forum and I'll explain.
As I told you I bought four projects from Bernd (KD 860, DUO 800, DUO 900 AND ECO 75 power) and of these four I built the KD860 2013 and 2021 the Duo 900 that I will soon finish.
In recent years I have been privately contacted by people registered on this forum, who bought Bernd's plans to try to help them build (paying for it is clear) their boat. These are the two customers of the KD122 the first and now the second.
I always asked Bernd if these people had bought the plans from him and he confirmed that everything was ok.
At the time of the construction of the two KD122s I asked Bernd if he wanted the photos of the construction and he said yes. This is why I opened the KD122 Italy albums and soon one of these two customers will write on the forum to share the construction of the A-frame mast, as we are building it and posting photos here on the forum.
I'm always here for everyone (when I can) if they ask me.
The other boats I have made I have not put anything on the forum but I met Bernd in person in Italy, three beautiful days, we exchanged many ideas and he is always available. Everything can be said, but hearing MISERABLE plans seems to me to be unfair and polite, since there are so many of us here ....
I too have found errors in my four projects and in the two KD 122s but it doesn't get any better at that price and before building you have to read the project well for several months.
bye
?
PS if one day I buy another project it will be the DUO105 which in my opinion has a fantastic line as well as being a fast boat-
|
Bernd Kohler
Zee
Alain Dupuis
bryanandmarycox
