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Anti Vortex Wharram


 

Hi Bernard and crew, Ive recently purchased Wharram Tiki 38 in place of building a KD at this stage .
This vessel will be pulled from the water next year for a full refit at which time i was hoping to fit Anti vortex panels.
The WLL is 9.6m so about the same as your P95 or KD90.
The part I'm having trouble is working out center of effort of the sail area(see attached sail plan).

Where would you place them if it were your boat?

I'm considering only fitting one to start with, my theory is that i can test it by sailing to windward and seeing how close i can get on opposite tacks in the same conditions, does this sound correct?

Thank-you for your thoughts
Guy Ellery


 

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Bernd may reply, but with all due respect why would you even think about fitting anti vortex panels to a Tiki 38? You already have the V shaped hulls and the low aspect ratio keel. A friend of mine built a Tiki 38 on which I have sailed a few times. I have always been impressed with the way that boat pulled up to windward. Admittedly he had very good sails with full length battens and also a little camber built into the sails, so better than the average Tiki sails. But for cruising yachts the Tiki designs go to windward very well.

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If you wanted to add more leeway resistance you could fit something like the Kim Keels I have on my little catamaran, pic attached. They would be more suited to the hull shape. But save yourself the trouble and look to whatever other improvements you can make which would include sail shape and trim.

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David


 

Thanks David for the reply, I suppose I was just curious if it would make a significant difference? However as an old saying goes "if it aint broke dont fix it". I haven't sailed on my boat yet as it has the masts removed and my first sail on it will be after I have completed the refit.
Thanks,
Guy


On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 03:55, David Thatcher <david.thatcher@...> wrote:

Bernd may reply, but with all due respect why would you even think about fitting anti vortex panels to a Tiki 38? You already have the V shaped hulls and the low aspect ratio keel. A friend of mine built a Tiki 38 on which I have sailed a few times. I have always been impressed with the way that boat pulled up to windward. Admittedly he had very good sails with full length battens and also a little camber built into the sails, so better than the average Tiki sails. But for cruising yachts the Tiki designs go to windward very well.

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If you wanted to add more leeway resistance you could fit something like the Kim Keels I have on my little catamaran, pic attached. They would be more suited to the hull shape. But save yourself the trouble and look to whatever other improvements you can make which would include sail shape and trim.

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David


 

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That is the hard question isn¡¯t it, is it worth all the trouble for what might be a very small gain. Without a doubt Bernd¡¯s design for my ¡®Kim Keel¡¯ is brilliant. I don¡¯t know how Kim Keel translates back to English, but I don¡¯t think it means anti-vortex panel. But for me it means that I have leeway preventers which work, the hull draft is still only 200mm, and there is no daggerboard case cluttering up the interior. I am always asked ¨C ¡®how close does she point?¡¯ But I have never measured pointing angle, what is more important is being able to effectively make way upwind towards my destination, and goodness knows I seem to have done a lot of upwind sailing since launching the boat!

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Keep in mind that hull shape and keel profile is only one factor in a boats upwind capability. Equally important is sail shape and sail trim. So having a fairly taught forestay is important, even for a cruising yacht. And having sails sheeted correctly is also very important. So even if your were to add anti-vortex panels, it probably won¡¯t do much good if your sails are not setting properly, or are so old that they have lost all their shape. I have a self-tacking headsail on my little boat. Until recently I was just allowing the traveler to go across to the outer end of the track each time I went about, not controlling the position of the traveler, even though I knew I should do something about it. Eventually a couple of months ago I fitted a simple control line so I can control the position of the traveler on the track. Now the jib is setting a lot better going to windward, and both the lower and upper tell tails are flowing the way they should be. And I am sure I am going better to windward.

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The other big factor in windward ability is helming. Once again, no matter how good your hull shape, how good the sails, you still will not go to windward well if the helming is poor. Sometimes in certain sea conditions VMG can be improved by not pointing so high, ease the boat off the wind a bit for better speed and power to punch through the waves. Being able to make that last little bit of VMG may be important for racers, but not so important for cruisers, especially in offshore sailing conditions.

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Probably for you the important thing is to get the boat sailing. Pay attention to your sails and sail trim, see how the boat performs for the type of sailing you want to do, and then assess whether you want to get that last bit of windward performance. If you do and think it is worth the trouble, then I am sure that Bernd can come up with something for you. Of course the other thing to think about is the cost of any improvements. If you can do the work yourself and the material cost is not too high, and the extra yard time is not too expensive, then it may be a worthwhile experiment.

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Anyway get out there sailing and start enjoying the boat. Good luck with it.

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David


 

There is a big difference between kim keels and anti vortex panels. First to the restriction. They can only be successfully used on flat bottomed boats and trapezoidal hulls.?
Anti vortex panels can not work on round and multi chine hulls. On V hulls end plates are better.
So, David, you made kim keels for your boat. This is a logical solution to better the windward ability.?
Anti vortex panels do the same as winglets do on an aircraft wing. Reduce the vortex and prevent (partly) the flow from the lower surface to the upper surface. In the case of a boat from the leeward side to the windward side. In this way more lift is generated (windward ability) is generated. Our Pelican with anti-vortex panels sailed better to windward as a well-known catamaran from a well-known designer. The boat was even 1 m longer and had daggerboards. This was witnessed by 5 persons who were on the other boat.
I add a photo from an aircraft without winglets. The vortexes are clearly seen on the wingtip. Watch the swirl of the flow.
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Interesting is that flat bottomed boats with the kim stringer at the outside sail better to windward as boats with the stringer (as usual) on the inside of the hull. Examples are the boats from PhilipBolger and the Paradox from Mat Layden.
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Bernd


 

I think the English for Kim keel is bilge-keel... glad to for once contribute to a discussion ? ??