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Especially for you educators out there, I thought I'd add something to the discussion and also based on some experiences...

As some of you know, I'm reasonably new to straight-ahead jazz. I've been playing hard Chicago Blues for about 30 years, and although I'm no Buddy Guy, I'm fairly accomplished (I was good enough to put myself through law school as a hired gun in the blues scene in NY in the 80's).

Blues is an oral tradition. Very few of these players could read any music, and I learned the way everyone else did: listening, listening and listening. If you were lucky, you'd meet someone who could play, and they would first show you the song structure, and then break down the phrases.

Books are fine, but especially in a music built on emotion, spontaneity and technique, the only way to really "get" it was to listen. For example, check out the classic Freddie King "Ain't Nobody's Business" at

and you'll see there's no way a book can truly capture the inflection and vibrato, the attack and string muting and most important, the breath in between phrases that makes these solos so great. So I'm not down on phrase books, but I think their value is limited as compared to lots of listening.

Blues players speak almost exclusively in terms of "licks" and after enough listening you recognize the licks in one artist's work as appearing in an earlier recording of someone else's. For example, hear Lightin Hopkins "Mojo Hand" at

and check the solo aroung :54 into it. Now hear Stevie Ray Vaughn play "Scuttle Buttin" at
and you'll recognize many of Lightnin's same phrases. (And if you know your Albert King, you'll hear a lot of his stuff there too). That's the oral tradition at work.

Flash forward to today. I'm enrolled in a jazz workshop here in the city, a group lesson (all instruments, not just guitar) where the focus is on theory and improvisation. All of the students in my group know their modes, scales, chord structures, interval relationships, etc. I'm the clearly the class dummy, the slowest sight reader in the class and am often embarrassed about having to count intervals on my fingers or look at the fretboard to see where a minor seventh is.

But in the performance part of the class, I blow them away. While they are noodling, trying to jam as many notes into their break as possible, really flailing about, I LISTEN to the bass line, try and find the leading tone and most important, try to make short declarative phrases that work around that, that develop a theme. Five notes that say something has to be better than 20 that don't, no?

One of the girls came up to me after class, kind of stunned that a musical ignoramus could play. She asked me how I knew what to play. (I had played this neat little Wes Montomgery run at one point and it was kind of funny, this one girl on the piano stopped playing and turned around to look at me with her jaw dropped open). I told her that I had recorded that section of the Wes phrase at home and played it over and over against the recording until I got it. That never dawned on her and none of her music teachers had told her to try that!

Given enough time, a gentle teacher and enough listening, a musician can see why that lick works and where, and given enough practice, you can make it your own.

I'm sticking with the workshop because I like the idea of learning theory, of developing a better understanding of the mechanics underneath it all. But at the end of the day, I think we could do well to respect the oral tradition, and share what we know with each other, without over intellectualizing it.

And appropos to a discussion elsewhere here, I've started to try and cop phrases from non-guitarists. Am currently going though some Gerry Mulligan and Stan Getz stuff that in a word, is just plain cool.

My long 2 cents....

Dude,

You get it... Good luck and all the best!

All the theory/scales/etc in the world isn't worth much if you can't "hear" what it is you're playing, or want to play. You're also absolutely right, one good note played with conviction trumps a ton of scale-based runs that don't swing.

When I was coaching jazz combos a few years ago at a local university, I had a pianist who spewed all over the place, but didn't really "say" anything; I stopped him and asked him to play one chorus using just one finger. He looked at me like I was full of s**t, but since I was the instructor, he tried it, and the light came on. He had to actually think about what he wanted to play, had to think about phrasing, etc, and the result was way more musical.

Music is about sound, not words. On this forum, a lot of time is spent "talking" about scales/modes/etc, but some of that time would be better spent listening and playing/practicing...

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega


Blues is an oral tradition. Very few of these players could read any music, and I learned the way everyone else did: listening, listening and listening. If you were lucky, you'd meet someone who could play, and they would first show you the song structure, and then break down the phrases.

Books are fine, but especially in a music built on emotion, spontaneity and technique, the only way to really "get" it was to listen. So I'm not down on phrase books, but I think their value is limited as compared to lots of listening.

All of the students in my group know their modes, scales, chord structures, interval relationships, etc. I'm the clearly the class dummy, the slowest sight reader in the class and am often embarrassed about having to count intervals on my fingers or look at the fretboard to see where a minor seventh is.

But in the performance part of the class, I blow them away. While they are noodling, trying to jam as many notes into their break as possible, really flailing about, I LISTEN to the bass line, try and find the leading tone and most important, try to make short declarative phrases that work around that, that develop a theme. Five notes that say something has to be better than 20 that don't, no?

One of the girls came up to me after class, kind of stunned that a musical ignoramus could play. She asked me how I knew what to play. (I had played this neat little Wes Montomgery run at one point and it was kind of funny, this one girl on the piano stopped playing and turned around to look at me with her jaw dropped open). I told her that I had recorded that section of the Wes phrase at home and played it over and over against the recording until I got it. That never dawned on her and none of her music teachers had told her to try that!

Given enough time, a gentle teacher and enough listening, a musician can see why that lick works and where, and given enough practice, you can make it your own.

I'm sticking with the workshop because I like the idea of learning theory, of developing a better understanding of the mechanics underneath it all. But at the end of the day, I think we could do well to respect the oral tradition, and share what we know with each other, without over intellectualizing it.

And appropos to a discussion elsewhere here, I've started to try and cop phrases from non-guitarists. Am currently going though some Gerry Mulligan and Stan Getz stuff that in a word, is just plain cool.

My long 2 cents....








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That is so true, it seems that every time a player picks up
a guitar in public he has to show how fast he is.

I also agree with you regarding horn/wind players there is a
great deal to be learned there.

Good Luck

Will

I think we could do well to respect the oral tradition, and share
what we know with each other, without over intellectualizing it.

Good thoughts C. There is someone doing just that he charges a
pittance for his knowledge as far as I am concerned. I am not in a
location where I could even find a college level group lesson in
theory and improv or a private teacher assuming I could afford one. I
don't work for the guy and am just a happy customer.

on jazz. If you call it's
him or his wife that answers the phone. Oh, there is a jazz clinic
near Yosemite this summer. About 5 days. He's doing the guitar part
and the is one for bass running concurrently.

First video I downloaded cost 3.99. Just a short chord melody intro.
More involved stuff i.e. whole tune in block chords was about ten
bux. Longer more involved stuff is more. I think the course on Bebop
is about 20.00. Thats 12 vid. lessons plus practice tracks and pdf.
of charts. The theory is part of the vid and not laid on real heavy.
For the Bebop and some of the other stuff it would be good to know
basic jazz chords and the neck.

You are fortunate to have the knowledge available first hand. I can't
ask Rich questions. He's not set up like Bruno's course was. But you
have to live in a city. You have to decide if that's a good trade or
not. But it's no problem keeping me `upon the mesa.' {;^)>

Ron
Living and playing outside the box.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cg,

Through the yeas a number of my students ask about and request Riff & Lick" ....

What I do is turn it into a learning experience.

I ask what, why, and how is a certain "Lick" or "Riff" so 'memorable" or "cool"?
.... what makes it so attractive a sound -- and so appealing to emulate?

I am them to play for me their favorite and personally-founded licks and riffs,
then I guide them to write them down. We then analyze them by writing out each
note's relationship to the chord and respective scale.

I use the system of numbering the scale and chord tones, neighbor tones,
approach tones, passing tones, scale tones, and chromatic tone (some of which
have multiple names -- and we discuss and comprehend which and why...) ...
labeling the riffs and/or lick using this system ....

We also look at each tone in the scale relationship to the chord and designate
which (be hearing them) tone, as to stable and non-stable tones, non-harmonic,
and harmonic tones -- in alterations and extensions of the chord via the scale
... we also discuss and throughly cover substituted chords and arpeggios over
changes ... like one of Wes' favorite solo techniques of playing over a Dom. 7th
chord with a major 7th arpeggio a whole step below in order to hit all the
stable extensions: G7 ---> G B D F A C E .... and to look at playing a tri-tone
sub over a Dom. 7th alt: B7b9 -----> F9 (F A C Eb G).....

Then I'll have them pick out riffs and licks from their favorite players, and
have them transcribe the riffs and licks they like in the solos .... we then do
the same analysis as to labeling described above ....

After a few months of these types of exercises and lessons they begin to hear
"What" is in Riffs & Licks and why they are so 'memorable'.




John Amato
Isaiah 55:11

This is well said.

I'll even supply an example.



This is a beautiful version of Manha De Carnival (Black Orpheus). There is a solo section starting around 2:58.

The opening of the solo is a single C against an Am chord. It sounds great. It's unexpected. She sings it and plays it simultaneously with great tone. The note is placed perfectly (thinking in 2/4 it's on the second 16th of the measure, which is exactly where the samba comp pattern hits in that bar (a little like 2-3 clave, but it's samba)).

She then plays a couple of additional phrases. Each contains only a couple of notes. They are placed perfectly. They are based on simple arpeggios for the most part, but they're really melodic. She ends each phrase right next to the next chord she comps -- no disruption in the time. Somehow, even though her note choices are pretty well inside, the overall sound of the improv is very hip.

To me, this is great jazz. I'd rather hear her handful of notes than even great jazz players (who I like, even) playing many more notes.

AMEN!!

Dave Woods



I'd like to add that in terms of complexity, young guitar players play to
impress each other. The "pecking order" judges and re judges who's corny
and who's not. Listening to her, it's obvious that she's as deep into the
tune as a person can get. This is another reality that young players who
suffer from "diarrhea fingers" seem to miss.


The opening of the solo is a single C against an Am chord. It sounds great.
It's unexpected. She sings it and plays it simultaneously with great tone.
The note is placed perfectly (thinking in 2/4 it's on the second 16th of the
measure, which is exactly where the samba comp pattern hits in that bar (a
little like 2-3 clave, but it's samba)).

She then plays a couple of additional phrases. Each contains only a couple
of notes. They are placed perfectly. They are based on simple arpeggios for
the most part, but they're really melodic. She ends each phrase right next
to the next chord she comps -- no disruption in the time. Somehow, even
though her note choices are pretty well inside, the overall sound of the
improv is very hip.

To me, this is great jazz. I'd rather hear her handful of notes than even
great jazz players (who I like, even) playing many more notes.