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In a message dated 8/14/01 12:22:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ceolan@... writes:

These are people I'd go to see to hear exciting jazz. No apologies for
omitting some that many regard as great, but I've seen and don't care to see
again.


Jimmy Bruno,
Ron Eschete - really inventive and swings
Russell Malone
Mimi Fox
Bill Frasell
John Stowell
Paul Bollenback
Dan Faehnle
Mundell Lowe
Peter Berstein
Peter Leitch
John Stowell
Joshua Breakstone
Larry Coryell
Gray Sergeant
Mark Elf
Howard Alden
Pat Martino
Tuck Andress
JOhn Pisano
Ron Affif

As I said, not in order. Great players who have passed on or retired are
omitted, but I still listen to them.

Let's hear from others. I was truly astonished that Jimmy wasn't on the
list. He does it all. Great fire and chops, and, fortunately, musical
sense to say something. I've heard others with great chops that bore you
after one set, but not Jimmy.

My 2 cents for tonight.

I would like to see:

Jim Hall (the guitar players' guitar player)
Kenny Burrell
Mick Goodrick
Alan Holdsworth


Andy

I have seen and taken numerous classes with jimmy and his approach and view
is soo black and white and offensive to me. His views on pat metheny made me
want to scream! Jimmy Bruno feels threatened by the thought of music at a
new level. I used to love him..... then i just started to see a lot of
shallowness in his playing. Im sorry if im being to blunt here... but these
are my feelings. His technique has suffered greatly also... i asked what he
prctices to keep in shape... he replied " well, i dont feel the need to
practice anymore". It was really evident when he was showing us scales. He
would also play an exercise as fast as he could just to impress the class.
He kept messing up! Not everyone is perfect, but thats why theres practice!

anyone else agree??

hit me back!

-jack

I agree with your list except I have never heard Mimi Fox so can't comment.

Jimmy Bruno is a great player. He is going to be in Wales this week where I
get the opportunity to see and hear him again together with Jack Wilkins,
Randy Johnston, Gary Potter, Adrian Ingram, Louis Stewart, Fapy Lafertin,
Mike Walker, Andy Mackenzie and Trefor Owen. This was a great event last year
and I'm excited at the prospect of seeing so many good players again.

Earlier this year I saw John Stowell (Tasteful), Mundell Lowe (Classy) and
shared the platform with Adran, Andy and John Pisano (Great but scary
experience).

Best Regards

Vernon Fuller
St Helens
United Kingdom

I was looking at the recent issue of Downbeat with its awards for
players of the year. I was surprised and disappointed that Jimmy
Bruno didn't make the list of either Top Guitarists or "Players
Deserving Wider Recognition" (or something like that). Scofield and
Frisell were tied in the first category, and Kurt Rosenwinkel was
first in the second group, but no sign of Bruno. Any thoughts? Is
it because he spends so much time in Philly? Is it a personality
thing?

Rick

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Rick" <e_goosenberg@f...> wrote:

I was looking at the recent issue of Downbeat with its awards for
players of the year. I was surprised and disappointed that Jimmy
Bruno didn't make the list of either Top Guitarists or "Players
Deserving Wider Recognition" (or something like that). Scofield and
Frisell were tied in the first category, and Kurt Rosenwinkel was
first in the second group, but no sign of Bruno. Any thoughts? Is
it because he spends so much time in Philly? Is it a personality
thing?

Rick

Maybe he's too traditional -- not innovative enough (guessing based
on the names that did make it).

Say Hey!!

I noticed Jimmy's omission too and I wonder what these critics are thinking.
My issues is burried in the pile here, but Jimmy ought to be near the top.

Calling one player best is splitting hairs. Who knows who voted, when, and
on what criteria? There are wonderful players out there, too many who are
really great to make a short list. But, it's my computer so here's some
suggestions, not necessarily in order.

These are people I'd go to see to hear exciting jazz. No apologies for
omitting some that many regard as great, but I've seen and don't care to see
again.


Jimmy Bruno,
Ron Eschete - really inventive and swings
Russell Malone
Mimi Fox
Bill Frasell
John Stowell
Paul Bollenback
Dan Faehnle
Mundell Lowe
Peter Berstein
Peter Leitch
John Stowell
Joshua Breakstone
Larry Coryell
Gray Sergeant
Mark Elf
Howard Alden
Pat Martino
Tuck Andress
JOhn Pisano
Ron Affif

As I said, not in order. Great players who have passed on or retired are
omitted, but I still listen to them.

Let's hear from others. I was truly astonished that Jimmy wasn't on the
list. He does it all. Great fire and chops, and, fortunately, musical
sense to say something. I've heard others with great chops that bore you
after one set, but not Jimmy.

My 2 cents for tonight.


At 03:06 AM 8/14/01 -0000, you wrote:

I was looking at the recent issue of Downbeat with its awards for
players of the year. I was surprised and disappointed that Jimmy
Bruno didn't make the list of either Top Guitarists or "Players
Deserving Wider Recognition" (or something like that). Scofield and
Frisell were tied in the first category, and Kurt Rosenwinkel was
first in the second group, but no sign of Bruno. Any thoughts? Is
it because he spends so much time in Philly? Is it a personality
thing?

Rick

Lan Mosher
Have Guitar, Will Travel
10103 SE 248th Court, C-302, Kent WA 98031 [253] 859-4404
www.halcyon.com/ceolan Fax: 253-813-1005

Of the younger generation, David Stryker definitely belongs on that list,
and of the older generation, so do Kenny Burrell and Herb Ellis.


--
Bob Schwartz

I decided I dont get out enough to know who the
current greats are (never
even heard Jimmy Bruno), but here's a few mainsay's
for me (some are
dead, so you cant see them live anytime soon):

Paul Bollenbeck
Kurt Rosen-twinkie (couldnt resist)
Lenny Breau
Steve Topping
Bruce Arnold
Django
Wes (obviously)
Pat My-weenie (sorry)
Wayne Krantz
Larry Carlton
Mark Elf
Joe Diorio

I could go on for too long , so...

ALSO:
What is the Key that Stella by Starlight is usually
played in, as I have
it in 2 or 3 different keys and am now confused.??>>..

-MARK

While I think most of your points are well taken (and I tend to
agree), I don't know that dissing any jazz guitar guy is appropriate
for this list. On the other hand, Jimmy is a guy who has really had
to discover his own approach to music and I really respect him for
that. Of course, calling a CD "Midnight Blue" - I don't know about
that...

-Jim

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., jazzgtr85@a... wrote:

I have seen and taken numerous classes with jimmy and his approach

and view

is soo black and white and offensive to me. His views on pat

metheny made me

want to scream! Jimmy Bruno feels threatened by the thought of

music at a

new level. I used to love him..... then i just started to see a

lot of

shallowness in his playing. Im sorry if im being to blunt here...

but these

are my feelings. His technique has suffered greatly also... i

asked what he

prctices to keep in shape... he replied " well, i dont feel the

need to

practice anymore". It was really evident when he was showing us

scales. He

would also play an exercise as fast as he could just to impress the

class.

He kept messing up! Not everyone is perfect, but thats why theres

practice!

anyone else agree??

hit me back!

-jack

On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Lan Mosher wrote:

Let's hear from others. I was truly astonished that Jimmy wasn't on the
list. He does it all.

I'm not familiar w/a lot of the players on the list, since I've just
started listening to jazz guitar players (I was always a horn gal), but I
saw Russell Malone play last week here in NYC and he was really smoking.
The rhythm section was tight and swung really hard, and Russell was really
amazing, he played standards, some orginals and an old Isley Brothers
tune. I was sitting at a table w/these two guys I didn't know -- turned
out they were young musicians whot traveled up from Philly just for this
gig -- and we just kept shaking our heads in amazement. Really good show.

Best,
Lynn

I have enjoyed and still enjoy Jimmy's playing and teaching a lot. BUT I
agree with you regarding the comments about Pat Metheny. I rate Pat Metheny
highly and I saw him in Leeds last year with the Trio tour. It was brilliant!
What a player in many styles!

Best Regards

Vernon Fuller
St Helens
UK

Jack, I agree that Jimmy's views can be a bit "black and
white," (eg. sweep picking,) but for my money he is right on
the money when it comes to keeping it simple. I completely
agree with his outlook that there are only really 3 chords
and scales, everything else is just a variation or extension
of those. That is how I see it also, I cannot possibly get
into the "dorian minor started from the seventh degree of
the scale a half step above" concept. Sure I can play that
way, but I sure don't "think" that way. Jimmy's opinions on
simplicity with scales and chords is refreshing.

Steve

I have seen and taken numerous classes with jimmy and his
approach and view is soo black and white and offensive to me

anyone else agree??

hit me back!

-jack

Practice is an interesting subject when you raise it with accomplished
musicians. I just came back from jazz residency at Stanford, attended Pat
Martino classes and found out that he doesn't practice any more. And he also
messed up a couple of times when showing examples - but who cares! At the
concert on Monday he didn't mess up once and that's what counts.

Phil Woods, a great alto player, was there and he doesn't practice. Bruce
Forman was there, loved his playing, but he also messed up - so did John
Stowell. Just shows they are human.

This doesn't mean that you are wrong to feel thas way about Jimmy, just
playing devil's advocate here. I was kind of surprised too to hear that when
you get on a certain level, you don't need to practice nearly as much.

Alen

I'm a big fan of Bruno's playing . I have analyzed some of his solos
and I am blown away by how cool they are. I also agree with Steve's
comments above regarding the "simple" approach. Joe Pass echos many of
the same ideas as Bruno and I apply this to my approach and analysis
as well.
It's a shame he did not get mentioned, but don't all these list leave
you disappointed?

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Ilkov, Alen" <alen@c...> wrote:

Practice is an interesting subject when you raise it with

accomplished

musicians. I just came back from jazz residency at Stanford,

attended Pat

Martino classes and found out that he doesn't practice any more. And

he also

messed up a couple of times when showing examples - but who cares!

At the

concert on Monday he didn't mess up once and that's what counts.

Phil Woods, a great alto player, was there and he doesn't practice.

Bruce

Forman was there, loved his playing, but he also messed up - so did

John

Stowell. Just shows they are human.

This doesn't mean that you are wrong to feel thas way about Jimmy,

just

playing devil's advocate here. I was kind of surprised too to hear

that when

you get on a certain level, you don't need to practice nearly as

much.

Alen

-----Original Message-----
From: jazzgtr85@a...
To: jazz_guitar@y...
Sent: 8/13/01 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: [jazz_guitar] Re: Jimmy Bruno and Downbeat

I have seen and taken numerous classes with jimmy and his approach

and

view
is soo black and white and offensive to me. His views on pat

metheny

made me
want to scream! Jimmy Bruno feels threatened by the thought of

music at

a
new level. I used to love him..... then i just started to see a lot

of

shallowness in his playing. Im sorry if im being to blunt here...

but

these
are my feelings. His technique has suffered greatly also... i asked
what he
prctices to keep in shape... he replied " well, i dont feel the need

to

practice anymore". It was really evident when he was showing us

scales.

He
would also play an exercise as fast as he could just to impress the
class.
He kept messing up! Not everyone is perfect, but thats why theres
practice!

anyone else agree??

hit me back!

-jack

Hello Gang,

I can't resist replying about this debate regarding Jimmy.

1. I think that it is really a bad concept to "throw out the baby with the
bathwater". I would have to ask which opinion about Jimmy is correct the
first perspective that Jimmy is great or the second opinion by the same
person that Jimmy is not great? The only thing we know for sure is not about
Jimmy, the only thing we know for sure is that the person who gave the
opinion seems to have changed his mind.

2. Personally, I often times find myself changing my mind. It is painful
because the mind changes so easily, yet it is so hard to actually learn
something...Jimmy Hendrix, Jim Hall, Pat Metheny, Pat Martino, Scofield,
Larry Coryell, Wes...I love them all, I appreciate them all, I would just
like to say thank you to them and George Harrison, and David Lindley, and so
many more.

I think the problem is that we need to identify with something or someone
because we can't do it all and feel threatened or unappreciated. After all,
if I spend ten years studying music, scales, chords, harmony I am most likely
not going to dig Punk and I may be angry and feel that it is unfair that no
talents are making big money, etc. We all know these arguments. But this
is not a Marxist debate. I personally am attracted to certain musicians. Of
course to me they are the best But which me? The 8 year old me or the 21
year old me or the 45 year old me? Each "me" thinks its the best and the
smartest.

Personally, I am glad that there is music.

Regarding the topic of Jimmy Bruno...of course he is great. He may or may
not be your taste. You may not like his philosophy or his manner or you may
love it.
I once a/b a video of Jimmy and Pat Martino...very different. You could say
that Jimmy was very accessable and clear and that Pat was mystical and
impossible to follow...or you could say that Jimmy was simplistic and that
Pat was poetic and sensitive. I don't know, but I certainly gained something
wonderful from both.

To some Coltrane sounds like noise and to other it is the sound that God must
listen to...for me I have had both experiences depending on my mood. People
change, moods change.

I did see Jim Hall and that night I found him boring. Yet, he remains one of
my favorites. Kenny Burrell can make me feel great and mellow and at times I
could care less. Isn't that just how humans are?

Now, with all that how the hell is one to function? I say, it is called
"Playing Music" so, mainly I like to enjoy it.

Sorry for the diatribe, but I think that it is important for all of us to
know that even what we really love at times we may hate. And remember gang,
when I was a kid The Ventures ruled! But you know what? I never listen to
them now, but in my heart they will always be the sound of electric guitar

David

I guess I would like to put my 2 cents in as well. Ya know,
I graduated High School early and just practiced jazz guitar
14 hours a day before going to Berklee. When I got there I
really got bitter from this whole guitar player attitude,
which maybe I had to some extent, where music just becomes a
contest of who's better and yadda yadda. I had to quit
playing for a year because it made me so sick.

Like this comment:

if I spend ten years studying music, scales, chords, harmony
I am most likely not going to dig Punk and I may be angry
and feel that it is unfair that no talents are making big
money, etc.

I try not to get caught in this head of, I am so much better
than so and so who is rich and famous...why not me? Do you
really think it should bother you (or me)? I mean most of
the record buying public does not know chromatic harmony,
etc. And it's kind of weird that the ones of us who are
studied and maybe more talented than your typical MTV band
(I cant think of any at the moment), usually are so
hyper-critical of people who are actually doing well in a
career as challenging as jazz. Everyone has their own ideas
of what good music is and I agree it is relative to mood,
age, drugs if you're on them, other factors, too. If Jimmy
Bruno is "whatever", and I still have not heard him, I
imagine it's who he wants to be. He is obviously real good
or we wouldnt waste time discussing what we do or dont learn
from him, but ya know, for me sometimes I'd rather hear The
Residents or The Clash (oh no, Punk) or Zeppelin or Hendrix
or Elton John or whatever the hell I want and I have a
degree in jazz studies from NYU and have practiced forever
and studied w/ some greats, etc. My point: Let's maybe lose
this "because I play jazz I am so much deeper and heavier
than anyone" attitude. It usually just means that you are a
self-hating ass.

I have played gigs where a guitarist comes up to me and does
this "Hey man, i really dig your playing, but you dont bend
enough notes" or "play more like Jeff Beck" or someone
else.....Why are these idiots, and yes it's more often
guitar players than other instruments, so in need of
advising me on how to make music? Do they think I'm making
so much money that I should be doing the job differently? I
mean, I've devoted a life time to music and I really dont
expect to get rich from it and at the moment cant even
squeek out a living. If you think your going to make more
money because you know the right scale to play on a D dim.
chord, you are sadly mistaken. So if it is really just about
art, for my entertainment I'll put on Trout Mask Replica by
Captain Beefheart and there hasnt been a more creative album
mentioned on this forum. That's my opinion....

Mark

Am I missing something? Where did these last two posts on Bruno come
from? They seem very out of context for what seemed to me as a focused
response to a question. Nobody is arguing better or best or jazz not
jazz. I'm just a little confused, a lot of time and effort was spent
to respond to something that I do not think exists in this posting.
Not trying to cause trouble, just confused....

I think Mark's message is totally cool. I wasn't hip to
Jimmy Bruno but they've been playing some of his stuff on
the jazz satellite channel (DirecTV 840)and his playing
sounds beautiful. I've been taping 6 hour VCR tapes off this
channel to play back on a separate VCR setup when I go to
sleep.I look forward to all these messages I receive
everyday. You know somethings up when you have to buy new
ink for your printer. >> Ross

What are Bruno's views on Metheny?

Hello Jazzers: I'm new to the group, and I am interested in the Bruno
thread. I am a big fan of Bruno. He and Robert Conti seem to be the
chops gods at the moment. Metheney? Did anyone ever post what Bruno
said? My view: Metheney can play, but I can't stand that digital
delay sound. It is so mushy! Every once in a while I try to listen to
him, but give up after a few minutes. I last bought the
Metheny/Scofield thing: nebulous jamming and terrible tone on both
guitars. I prefer an acoustic archtop sound (although Bruno has been
doing a lot on a solid body Benedetto--the "Benny' lately). My two
cents.

Randy Groves