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Inveterate Jazz Guitarists,

It's been about a few months since I searched the web
for jazz guitar sites that offered a forum type venue
where you can discuss and share ideas in common and
juxtaposed in order to expand one's vision and
capabilities on our beloved instrument, jazz guitar.

I go back to 1968 when I started playing, and I have
to say, in all honesty, that the amount of material
available to us back then, as compared to today, is
quite a leap (boggles the mind) over truck loads of
information never before available.

In just a few short months I must have downloaded
charts, instructional materials, fake books (thanks to
Juan), mp3s, songs, lyrics, chord charts, sub. charts,
jazz harmony manuals, scalar studies, modal studies,
rhythm studies -- I could go on and on. And all this,
plus loads more, is all available by the click of the
mouse. It's quite remarkable in view of the amount of
information that is availabble for young players
today.

Years ago, in order to acquire maybe 1/10 of what you
can download in an hour, you'd have to travel to your
largest city in your state's music publishing store
and, if lucky, they may have what you're looking for
-- if not, you'd have toorder it and wait a few weeks.


Back then there were not even that many mail order
houses. You had to call the publishing co. to find
there nearest retailer. But today there is so much
material available right on the Internet -- it is just
amazing.

Having said that, I will venture to go one step
further: progress is awesome. We will be seeing great
jazz guittarists in a few short years -- partially due
to this new media of the internet feeding data at such
a speed.

Back when I was in college searching out study
material, movation was a prime factor (same as today)
in the amount of time it took to improve on the
instrument. Material, of course, was limited to what
you could acquire either from your teacher (if you had
one), or from retailers who had to order "jazz guitar"
studies -- and you had to wait, and wait till they
came in. In t he meanwhile, you would (I would) study
what materials you had (and make due), and transcribe
songs and solos from records (33rpm), albums. And your
"chops" improved over time, basically doing the same
as the gigs were lining up ... and you repeated the
process (studying your materials over and over agian
more than once or twice) as growth was always on the
horizon because pracctice and acquiring new studies
materials was a constant.

Now, I foresee students acquiring skills faster than
in my days because of the Internet. And, I really
believe, we will see great players in the years ahead.

Case in Point: When I studied with Barry Galbraith
back in '74, those 42 chord melodies that today have
been made public domain, would have cost any one of
his students $35 a lesson (each lesson he gave you a
new chord melody); tha'ts over $1300; plus, you had to
travel to NYC to the Brill building where he was
located, or to New Hampshire.

With all the information available on the web today, I
wonder whether youung players actually appreciate what
is really ouut there in the sense of how hard it was
to acquire just 1/10 of this materials 20 or 30 years
ago.

I can see how the art of jazz guitar is in a very
healthy state due to the public awareness and
availablility of data. But, there is no getting away
from "woodshedding." The fact remains that information
overload may cause a tendency to see all the available
material with no focus or attention to direction,
goals and objectives, purposes and intentions. All the
material mounted up in plies jst waiting to get
practiced is not a focused direction. It's like being
in a gigantic candy store with so much candy we are
bound to get a belly ache.

I say all this in awe of the material on the web, and
in a very positive note; however, i have to say to the
young players to treat each bit of data with careful
analysis as to how it perians to you goals and
objectives, and to treat that data with sufficient
time, study, and parctice.

I would be hesitant to download every single piiece of
data I see on jazz guitar because much of it is
repetitive, and information overload could very easily
cause one to study to become a "jack of all
trades,master of none..."

My message is this: stick with one thing untill it is
mastered and move on ... I say this because years ago,
that "one thing" is all we had, and in order tomove on
we had to wait for materials that were long time
coming -- today they are here, right to your computer
HD...







John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



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--- In jazz_guitar@..., John Amato <jamato316@y...>
wrote:

With all the information available on the web today, I
wonder whether youung players actually appreciate what
is really ouut there in the sense of how hard it was
to acquire just 1/10 of this materials 20 or 30 years
ago.

It's been pointed out many times that this can be a bad thing too.
So much stuff is out there that many people don't learn this stuff
by ear anymore (as someone mentioned in another thread).

It can sort of lead the the guitar magazine syndrome (where kids can
learn licks right away and create meaningless music)...

This sort of relates to the ear vs. theory thread. I know it's not
either/or, of course, but the fact is that the more theory you start
with up front, the less you will learn.

(and by the way, the classical composers in the old days didn't just
come out and start banging away at the piano creating timeless
masterpieces all by ear and natural talent. They had teachers
teaching them rules, theory etc...)

It's like learning math. You can study math, memorize the rules and
then read through all the proofs, but you won't ever become a good
mathematician if you don't sit down and try to work out some of the
proofs yourself...

Anyway, interesting points. I agree somewhat, and I myself am very
thankful of the information out there...

Ken

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "kuboken1" <kuboken1@y...> wrote:

This sort of relates to the ear vs. theory thread. I know it's not
either/or, of course, but the fact is that the more theory you start
with up front, the less you will learn.

Ooops, meant to say the less you will learn by ear, or organically.
Which is fine if at the end it all syncs up. But as I mentioned in my
other post (and Alisdair also points out), I think it often doesn't
sync up even though many think it will at some point...

The one great thing about the internet as far as I'm concerned is the
disintermediation of information.

I've learned more about other guitarists, up and comers etc... from
yjgg and rmmgj than any jazz publication, radio or music store.

I've heard more clips of many more different people than would have
been available 20 years ago...

Back then, if it wasn't in a record store, on the radio, or on TV, I
never would have had a chance to hear all these other people...

Not to mention Amazon, CDbaby and all those long-tailed internet
retailers that can stock a seemingly infinite inventory of CDs (due to
the lower physical contraints...)

Ken

--- kuboken1 <kuboken1@...> wrote:

It's been pointed out many times that this can be a
bad thing too.
So much stuff is out there that many people don't
learn this stuff
by ear anymore (as someone mentioned in another
thread).

...good point

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

--- kuboken1 <kuboken1@...> wrote:

The one great thing about the internet as far as I'm
concerned is the
disintermediation of information.

I've heard more clips of many more different people
than would have
been available 20 years ago...

Back then, if it wasn't in a record store, on the
radio, or on TV, I
never would have had a chance to hear all these
other people...

...

I second that (e)motion ...

.....and I labsolutely love the term,
"disintermediation of information" ... is that a Dick
Chaney quote...lol

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11




______________________________________________________
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Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

I agree, that's a great term I want to steal and use, with or
without attribution to Ken!

Disintermediation of information means that the internet did for
info what Martin Luther did for prayer.

Maintain

Marshall

--- In jazz_guitar@..., John Amato <jamato316@y...>
wrote:

--- kuboken1 <kuboken1@y...> wrote:

The one great thing about the internet as far as I'm
concerned is the
disintermediation of information.

I've heard more clips of many more different people
than would have
been available 20 years ago...

Back then, if it wasn't in a record store, on the
radio, or on TV, I
never would have had a chance to hear all these
other people...

...

I second that (e)motion ...

.....and I labsolutely love the term,
"disintermediation of information" ... is that a Dick
Chaney quote...lol

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11




______________________________________________________
Yahoo! for Good
Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

This may have been already said (my Jazz Guitar folder
is quite full of unread messages): the Internet is a
wide and shallow pool of information. Experience is
still the great teacher.

Mr. Obvious.

--- John Amato <jamato316@...> wrote:

Quote: "The fact remains that information
overload may cause a tendency to see all the available
material with no focus or attention to direction,
goals and objectives, purposes and intentions. All the
material mounted up in plies jst waiting to get
practiced is not a focused direction. It's like being
in a gigantic candy store with so much candy we are
bound to get a belly ache."

Unfortunately, this is happening to me. I would sincerely like to
chuck all my mounds of accumulated material and just practice
argeggios and chord inversions over and over in all keys. I know
that's what I need to do to truly progress, but instead I get bored
and frustrated, go through the fakebooks, play a few heads, get stuck,
go online, read up on stuff, look at guitars, click on an online
store, buy another repetitive instructional item, learn the first few
bars of something new, stumble at the first hard bit, decide it's time
to look at more guitars. Stupid thing is -- not a single step in the
process is unconconcious, I know I'm doing it and also why.

I managed to quit smoking. How does one quit flakey practice habits?

Cheers,
Andy

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "stottunit"

I managed to quit smoking. How does one quit flakey practice

habits?

Easy. Just stop doing them.

Learn some tunes and play them. Learn one really good solo (either
trasncribed or off of a transcription) and keep playing it.

You don't have to throw anything out.

Just learn to play tunes and go back to all that material a little
at a time on an as needed basis when you want to.

The big mistake that I made and many people make is that in jazz
there is this 'hurdle' in terms of knowledge and skill you need to
achieve before you can play jazz...

This is why people end up practicing scales, arps and inversions for
years and still can't play anything that sounds remotely like
jazz...

Just switch around the priorities so that you spend most of your
time on learning tunes (or learning one tune really well) and other
people's solos.

Ken

kuboken1 wrote:

Just switch around the priorities so that you spend most of your time on learning tunes (or learning one tune really well) and other people's solos.

The first chart I learned was "How High The Moon" :-)

--
- Toby A. Rider
- Fort Worth, Texas

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "kuboken1" <kuboken1@y...> wrote:

The big mistake that I made and many people make is that in jazz
there is this 'hurdle' in terms of knowledge and skill you need to
achieve before you can play jazz...

Oops, I meant the mistake is that in jazz we *think* there is a hurdle
in terms of...

There might be a little bit, but not as much as you think at first (at
least to get to the first level).

Just try to learn it the way you learned rock...

Ken

I agree that the internet has changed the landscape for guitar
players since days of old. I can't say for sure whether it's good or
bad, but it sure is different!

In the old days, your universe as a guitar player trying to find his
way consisted of the handful of players you might know in your
hometown, your teacher (if you had one), the records you owned, and
whatever live jazz you were lucky enough to see. There weren't a lot
of guitar books, and they often were rooted in older "orchestral"
styles (Mickey Baker, wrong as it was, helped a lot of us get
started, and the first "orange" Joe Pass Book was a gift from the
Gods).

You spent an awful lot of time holed up in your room practicing, and
would come up for air occasionally to test your progress. Perhaps
it's wrong to generalize this way, but my recollection was that the
overall mindset of a 60's / 70's guitar player was much more
secretive than the very open sharing that goes on today.

Today, a player, even in a small town (or country) is much less
isolated, as he can tap into a network of players that is huge and
available around the clock. To me, the most fascinating (and
different) thing about the web, compared to those old days is not
just hearing other people play...it's being able to understand how
they think. You just didn't have the opportunity to get inside
people's heads the way you do today.

It's not only listening to and interacting with heavy players that
can help. Through the web, you can also learn an enormous amount by
observing people who are perhaps not moving in the right direction.
Often, it's easier to see the mistake or unhealthy pattern is someone
else than it is in yourself. Once you recognize the problem, you can
take the necessary steps to correct it, or better still, avoid it
altogether.

I agree that there are negatives as well as positives. You can
easily get distracted, and based on what you read, you could probably
convince yourself on a weekly (maybe daily) basis that you need to
change styles, buy a new guitar / amp, play like (insert name here),
move to (insert place here), buy every CD by (...), study with (...)
etc. It's the Flavor of the Month Club gone wild. And as opposed to
the Mickey Baker / Joe Pass days, you've got so many people ready to
show you "the way" that you can get gridlocked trying to listen to
just a small fraction of them.

What we all come to learn eventually is that regardless of how much
free crap you download and collect off the web, video lessons you
take, seminars you attend or musics schools or private lessons you
do, all that really is gonna count is what you can truly internalize,
as that will be what you can execute "in the moment".

The one thing that remains constant, then as now, is that the
process of internalization takes place over time, and requires a lot
of practice, thought and repitition. A LOT of practice (for many of
us, a lifetime).

For the player who recognizes where the web ends and practice starts,
I'd guess that this is a great time to be studying the guitar.

--- stottunit <andrew_mcconnell_stott@...>
wrote:

Unfortunately, this is happening to me. I would
sincerely like to
chuck all my mounds of accumulated material and just
practice
argeggios and chord inversions over and over in all
keys.

Andy,

Go back to step #1 -- take out your original material,
if it was scales and arpeggios -- and put the other
material away -- with good teaching there are assigned
levels of skill proficiency attached to each level
(let's call it "Grade").

learning is facilitated in a braid-like manner: you
learn new material only when you have mastered
familiar material (which was once unnfamiliar), and as
you progress you add new layers of proficiency (like
in "braids"). "Braided" because there is never
anything new that does not rely, or depend, or gets
"braided" to old material. (In fact, this is how we
learned decimals, which was "braided" to the prior
learning of fractions, which was "braided" to the
prior learning of whole numbers, etc., etc.... It is
how we learn

And, go back to step #1 -- it sounds to me like all
the other material you have may be all geared to
different grades, or levels, of proficiency ...

....that is why it is so important to hook up with a
good teacher... do you have the opportunity to find
and study with a good teacher ...

...what area are you from ... plenty of players here
can direct you to a good teacher anywhere in the US....

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

--- kuboken1 <kuboken1@...> wrote:

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "kuboken1"
<kuboken1@y...> wrote:

The big mistake that I made and many people make

is that in jazz

there is this 'hurdle' in terms of knowledge and

skill you need to

achieve before you can play jazz...

Ken,

The reality of learning jazz guitar is a subset of
learning jazz, ...a subset because the instrument has
certain limitations and blindspots that other
instruments may not have ...

...having said that, not as an excuse, but as a
reality .. learning jazz on the guitar is the highest
form of the instrument (and to me the hardest form of
guitar) because of onemain thing: IMPROVISATION ...

Hear me out ... what we do requires extra
specialization ... it requires a high degree of
intellectualization (not be misconstrued with
"intellegence," as well as feeling, emotion, and all
gooey stuff we call "FEEL" ...

The closest form of instrumental virtuosity on the
guitar, I would say, is Classical Guitar (a subset of
that would be Flamenco) ... but, in classical guitar
the study of dynamics would be the closest they would
come to "improvisation..." But there is absolutley no
comparison to what they do and what a jazz guitarist
has to learn in order to play "Jazz Guitar".

I studied some Classical -- I love lassical guitar,
but it's not me ... I have a great respect for
classical guitarists ... their's is a hard road ...
but it's not "Improv"..... The Flamenco players do
employ improvisation, but not the degree as in
Jazz....

...why is jazz guitar so sweet...because it is so
hard...because it is such an art that requires
dedication and one thing that makes jazz guitarists
maybe a step beyond (not above) all the other genres
of guitar playing is this: DISCIPLINE & DEDICATION ...

....w/out Discipline anything worthwhile in life will
never come to any achieveable height ...

...many young players have to learn discipline --
either before, during, or while they are studying ...
there is not such thing as "discipline" after an
achieveable goal because the goal will never be
reached ....

The greatest thing about discipline is this: it gives
you a hunger and thirst for the thing you are being
discipline in..."

...yep, it's like a circle, the more you pratice and
get betterm the more you want to play, and the more
you play, the better you get ... and more
discipline...etc...etc...



John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11

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--- kuboken1 <kuboken1@...> wrote:

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "kuboken1"
<kuboken1@y...> wrote:

The big mistake that I made and many people make

is that in jazz

there is this 'hurdle' in terms of knowledge and

skill you need to

achieve before you can play jazz...

Ken,

The reality of learning jazz guitar is a subset of
learning jazz, ...a subset because the instrument has
certain limitations and blindspots that other
instruments may not have ...

...having said that, not as an excuse, but as a
reality .. learning jazz on the guitar is the highest
form of the instrument (and to me the hardest form of
guitar) because of onemain thing: IMPROVISATION ...

Hear me out ... what we do requires extra
specialization ... it requires a high degree of
intellectualization (not be misconstrued with
"intellegence," as well as feeling, emotion, and all
gooey stuff we call "FEEL" ...

The closest form of instrumental virtuosity on the
guitar, I would say, is Classical Guitar (a subset of
that would be Flamenco) ... but, in classical guitar
the study of dynamics would be the closest they would
come to "improvisation..." But there is absolutley no
comparison to what they do and what a jazz guitarist
has to learn in order to play "Jazz Guitar".

I studied some Classical -- I love lassical guitar,
but it's not me ... I have a great respect for
classical guitarists ... their's is a hard road ...
but it's not "Improv"..... The Flamenco players do
employ improvisation, but not the degree as in
Jazz....

...why is jazz guitar so sweet...because it is so
hard...because it is such an art that requires
dedication and one thing that makes jazz guitarists
maybe a step beyond (not above) all the other genres
of guitar playing is this: DISCIPLINE & DEDICATION ...

....w/out Discipline anything worthwhile in life will
never come to any achieveable height ...

...many young players have to learn discipline --
either before, during, or while they are studying ...
there is not such thing as "discipline" after an
achieveable goal because the goal will never be
reached ....

The greatest thing about discipline is this: it gives
you a hunger and thirst for the thing you are being
discipline in..."

...yep, it's like a circle, the more you pratice and
get betterm the more you want to play, and the more
you play, the better you get ... and more
discipline...etc...etc...



John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

In a message dated 9/26/2005 12:42:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
andrew_mcconnell_stott@... writes:


Quote: "The fact remains that information
overload may cause a tendency to see all the available
material with no focus or attention to direction,
goals and objectives, purposes and intentions. All the
material mounted up in plies jst waiting to get
practiced is not a focused direction. It's like being
in a gigantic candy store with so much candy we are
bound to get a belly ache."

Unfortunately, this is happening to me. I would sincerely like to
chuck all my mounds of accumulated material and just practice
argeggios and chord inversions over and over in all keys. I know
that's what I need to do to truly progress, but instead I get bored
and frustrated, go through the fakebooks, play a few heads, get stuck,
go online, read up on stuff, look at guitars, click on an online
store, buy another repetitive instructional item, learn the first few
bars of something new, stumble at the first hard bit, decide it's time
to look at more guitars. Stupid thing is -- not a single step in the
process is unconconcious, I know I'm doing it and also why.

I managed to quit smoking. How does one quit flakey practice habits?

Cheers,
Andy









I think getting a good teacher is the solution. He/she can be your guide
through the morass that's out there. And while he may not see EVERYthing
theory-wise or ear-wise, at least you're getting one path through it all. And you
have another human being there beside you, not just a website or a book :)

Of course, it costs money! But it's a damned good investment, IMHO.

Rick
Cape Cod

--- In jazz_guitar@..., John Amato <jamato316@y...>

Hear me out ... what we do requires extra
specialization ... it requires a high degree of
intellectualization (not be misconstrued with
"intellegence," as well as feeling, emotion, and all
gooey stuff we call "FEEL" ...

Yeah, I understand all that.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

My point was that oftentimes, beginners/novices will spend TOO MUCH
time on all that theory, scales, modes, arpeggios, inversions at the
expense of learning some tunes, transcribing solos and just trying
to create music!

You can go very far with very little.

I bet that if someone learned to play even just a few of the bird
solos in the omnibook (can be at half-speed. No need to play it
fast. All that stuff sounds really good slow too...) and really
internalized it, they will quickly be able to play some decent
sounding solos.

That was my point...

Ken

I've discussed this with several musician friends. It is, apparently,
quite common for people to be scattered in their practice habits.

I think it's because there's so much good stuff out there. Every day
you hear something new you want to try. And can't resist.

My suggestion is to try to figure out the aspect of your playing that
sucks the worst. Then, figure out some way to work on it and do it
daily.

Two examples from my own experience:

I recognized that I was better in some keys than others, so I started
playing all my old favorites in my "bad" keys using BIAB.

I recognized that my ear completely sucks, so I got an ear training
program and started working with it daily.

Rick





- In jazz_guitar@..., "stottunit"
<andrew_mcconnell_stott@h...> wrote:

Quote: "The fact remains that information
overload may cause a tendency to see all the available
material with no focus or attention to direction,
goals and objectives, purposes and intentions. All the
material mounted up in plies jst waiting to get
practiced is not a focused direction. It's like being
in a gigantic candy store with so much candy we are
bound to get a belly ache."

Unfortunately, this is happening to me. I would sincerely like to
chuck all my mounds of accumulated material and just practice
argeggios and chord inversions over and over in all keys. I know
that's what I need to do to truly progress, but instead I get bored
and frustrated, go through the fakebooks, play a few heads, get

stuck,

go online, read up on stuff, look at guitars, click on an online
store, buy another repetitive instructional item, learn the first

few

bars of something new, stumble at the first hard bit, decide it's

time

to look at more guitars. Stupid thing is -- not a single step in the
process is unconconcious, I know I'm doing it and also why.

I managed to quit smoking. How does one quit flakey practice habits?

Cheers,
Andy

--- kuboken1 <kuboken1@...> wrote:

You can go very far with very little.

I bet that if someone learned to play even just a
few of the bird
solos in the omnibook (can be at half-speed. No need
to play it
fast.

Ken,

Tthat is absolutely the ticket -- exactly what I am
talking about -- when I started getting into jazz, it
was self-motivation, there was very little sources
around .. I think I learned the Micky Baker Jazz Chord
book #1 & 2 about 3 times -- because we were so
limited with materials ... (and I taught from the same
books...)

...I remember I flipped out when I found a book by
Chuck Wayne in the 70s on arpeggios in the back bins
of a music publishing company. It had a moveable
transparency template that you would place on top of
chord types ...


...so, I transcribed Benson, Dexter Gordon, Sonny
Rollins, James Moody, and Charile Christian before
they came out with his transcribed solos ... I went
out and bought Benny Goodman records checking the back
side of the albums to see if Charlie Christian was on
the recordings ... I remember spending hours upon
hours on Django's "Nuages' ...

...tha's how we cut ouur teeth back then ... today it
is operation overload ... and a lot of the kids are
getting frustrated because of little direction and no
foucus ... they really should have teachers to guide
them...

...another truth is this: this art of jazz guitar
comes slow ... you can't rush it ... it is so much
about life experiences ... the tone I get now was not
the tone I got in 1976 or 1984 or 1993 ... tone is a
maturing thing ... and I feel my tone changing every
day ...

...this art of jazz guitar is about maturing ....
can't be rushed ... life can't be rush ... it comes
with experience ... when I listen to jazz guitarists
the first thing that graps you is his/her lines .. but
immeidately that falls away and you are left with
"Tone" ... ffor my money I gravitate to the guys with
super luscious tone ...and IMO the guys below have
most gorgeous tone ...

1. Johnny Smith
2. George Van Eps
3. Wes Montgomery
4. Jimmy Raney
5. Pat Martino

... I know I'm leaving a lot out ... but this is a
short list ...

...like I said, when I hear a guitarist, the first
thing that hits me are his lines, then ideas, then
finally his tone -- and that is where I settle into
because that is really what keeps me lsitening --
evenwhen I listen to Joe Pass' "Catch Me" album, when
he does "Joy Spring" at lightening speed ... alot of
players can play that fast ... but nnot that clean and
with that tone ... Tal Farlow has a tone that if he
were a bell he'd be in a cathedral, Barney Kessel:
killer tone, Herb Ellis too, Jimmy Bruno also has a
lightening speed with super tone .. there are no young
players with that kind of nimble virtuosity and that
tone .. why? becuaser tone comes with years ... time
spent with fretborad under fingers -- lots of days and
nighst of friction making music ...





John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



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Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

--- theunknownguitarplayer
<unknownguitarplayer@...> wrote:

The one thing that remains constant, then as now, is
that the
process of internalization takes place over time,
and requires a lot
of practice, thought and repitition. A LOT of
practice (for many of
us, a lifetime).

For the player who recognizes where the web ends and
practice starts,
I'd guess that this is a great time to be studying
the guitar.

..excellent points .. and so true .. when the party
is over and everyone has gone home, I put on a Johnny
Smith record (opps) CD ...

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11

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