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b7 and dom7 Interchangeability Observation
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John Amato
Note the implications of improvisation on the
interchangeability of the dom b7 and the dim7 chords in reference to the Diminished scale and the Half Diminished scale - in order to break out of the "rut" of the natural shapes and patterns that the guitar is sometimes mistakeningly indigenous for: e.g. B7b9---> B-C-D-Eb-F-F#-G#-A-B (B Half-Dim. scale) C Dim7---> C-D-Eb-F-F#-G#-A-B (C Dim. scale) Notice that these are the same scales starting on the I and bii degrees ... Implications: #1) B7b9 from the root plays B Half Dim scale, and from the b9 (bii) it plays from the C Dim scale... (with the C in the root of the chord, it plays really well into the scale...) #2) C Dim7 from the root plays the C Dim. scale, and from the 7th it plays the B Half Dim. scale... ... For myself, I find it easier to apply this on the fretboard in terms of the alterations that the diminsihed and half diminished scales have on the major scale: e.g. Instead of learning the patterns of the dim. and half dim scales as they lay in shapes up and down the fretboard (I never remember them and while soloing I can't think that way, it sort of interupts the flow..), instead I find it easier to think in terms of how the major scale is altered. (For me, the major scale is like the bedrock of scales, the first I learned, and it has a certain foundational strength -- the relative minor is also based on it, and the modes, etc., etc... learning the major scale is a large part of it all...) OK ... having said that, I find it easier to alter the major scale of the I (whether dom. or dim) in reference to the b9 and dim. scales as follows: C Dim7---> C-D-Eb-F-F#-G#-A-B (C Dim. scale) I think alterations on the Major I: I - 2 - b3 - 4 - #4 - #5 - 6 - 7 for Dim scale B7b9---> B-C-D-Eb-F-F#-G#-A-B (B Half-Dim. scale) I think alterations on the Major I: 1 - b2 - b3 - 3 - #4 - 5 - 6 - b7 ...for me, learing these applications as far as the dim. and half dim. scales alter the major scale helps me to get out of the "shape" rut that sometimmes the guitar lends itself to bad habits inherent in the nature of the matrix of the fretbboard ... for me, thinking like this helps me to explore variations and new ideas wherever on the fretboard I may find myself at any moment in any song ... John Amato Music blows the dust off your soul... Isa.55:11 __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 |
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Rick_Poll
I also dislike fingering patterns.
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I had trouble memorizing the notes in all the dim and b9 scales. Eventually, I had some success with the following approach. A Diminished scale is composed of the notes of the Dim chord plus the notes a half step below. For example, C Eb Gb A is Cdim. The notes a half step down are B D F Ab. Put them together and it's the same Dim scale you wrote about. I then memorized the notes in the three diminished chords. Three groups of four notes to memorize to the point where they're automatic. Then, add the notes a half step down and you've got the scales. It's C Whole Half Dim in this example for C dim. I memorized the b9 by thinking of the diminished scale starting on the b9. For C7b9 I think Db Dim. Maybe the long way around, but I can find the notes on the fly. The advantage of this approach (to my apparently idiosyncratic way of thinking) is that you don't have to think about fingerings. Your approach, frankly, is probably better. That is, it's probably better to think about intervals than notes. That is, as long as you don't have to play the root first to find the other notes. My system, for all its faults, creates a mental pool of notes with no fingering or root bias. At least when the magic is working. Rick
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thomas sch?nsgibl
hi,
John Amato schrieb: C Dim7---> C-D-Eb-F-F#-G#-A-B (C Dim. scale)yes!!!! i do exactly the same thing! if you see the whole-half tone scale as: 1 - 2 - b3 - 4 - #4 - #5 - 6 - 7 it opens a lot of new ideas: ie: the melodic minor skale is: 1 - 2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 so whenever you can use the melodic minor skale (over Xm(maj7)chords, ....) you can use the whole-half tone scale, too. you only have to resolve the #4-#5 (from whole-half tone scale)from time to time to the 5. if you resolve the b3 and the #4-#5 thing from time to time to 3 and 5 you can use the whole-half tone scale as the simple major scale. so you can use this scale over Xmaj7 chords, too. and if you stop resolving thes whole-half tone scale it is a good starting point to play outside over Xm(maj7 and Xma7 chords, .......... only these 3 little ideas shows the power of the whole-half tone scale. ........ nice day thomas |
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John Amato
Rick ...
I like your method as well (thinking a half step below the chordal is a good method also) ... any pneumonic that can help with the enormous confusion that has historically surrounded this awsesome subject of improv. on the fretboard is welcomed... ...the point being that everything comes from the MAJOR scale ... so, because it is so well memorized by very early entry level learning on the instrument, it should be utilized to the max in its super-duper role as foundational cutting board for alterational functionality with the minors, modes, altered doms, and dims ... --- Rick_Poll <richardipollack@...> wrote: I also dislike fingering patterns. John Amato Music blows the dust off your soul... Isa.55:11 __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 |
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Rick_Poll
John,
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I agree with your approach. I also use the major scale as the basis for most of my thinking, at least sort of. For example, For G lyd dominant, I might think G major, but alter the 4th and seventh. That produces Dmelmin and I might think that way too -- D major, but lower the 3rd. I'm working on it, but it still depends on the key. For most keys the notes are automatic, but if there's, say Db7, I still have to think for a moment if I try to think Db major and raise the 4th and lower the seventh. However, I can get there by thinking Abmelmin. I also agree that the whole point is to internalize the sounds and not think about theory while you're playing. Like most people, I guess, I can do that with some sounds and not others. So, I still rely on scales when I'm practicing. I like what Eddie Pasternak, the great Bay Area bop guitarist said, paraphrasing, "I may not always be making up great melodies, but at least I'll play the right scale". Rick --- In jazz_guitar@..., John Amato <jamato316@y...> wrote:
Rick ... |
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John Amato
Rick....
To sum it all up ... i guess, I'm no expert ... but, we study scales in any way that we can best learn them to internalize them best in order than one day our ears can say to our brain, "...enough with the numbers and the dots, already, we get the point, we get the point! ... we hear what you want to say, already ... now, place your fingers here, not there, and over here, and over there...and oh yeah, right there, and no, not there yet ...wait a moment, o yeah, o yeah -- that's good, that' not .. throw that out ... and O yeah, save that one ... now slam 'dat there, and dunk this here...and, O yeah, o Yeah!....." and happily we roll-a-long..... --- Rick_Poll <richardipollack@...> wrote: John, John Amato Music blows the dust off your soul... Isa.55:11 __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 |
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Dave Woods
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick_Poll" <richardipollack@...> To: <jazz_guitar@...> Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 1:28 PM Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: b7 and dom7 Interchangeability Observation Rick wrote, I agree with your approach. I also use the major scale as the basisThis is the approach I use as well, except I think in terms of Five Key Positions rather than five major scale positions. Within a key position are all the modes, arpeggios, and chord voicings. I don't think in terms of harmonic minor, harmonic major or melodic minor at all. These are created by temporary leading tones that only exist while certain resolving chords are in effect. When these chords resolve to their intended destinations, the temporary leading tones disappear from the Key. The rest is all ear training, using theory to set up different ways to train your ear, and working out tunes. Once you have the sound in your ear, forget about the theory. The sounds and what you feel about them are the true meaning. The less you think technically during a solo the better. Dave Woods www.musictolight.org |
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Rick_Poll
It was certainly clear in context that what Eddie was saying was that
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the goal is to be playing great melodies. But, in pointing out that scale knowledge is important, he was making the point that even at those moments you aren't composing great melodies, you can at least be on the right scale. --- In jazz_guitar@..., "Jeremy" <jeremyc@c...> wrote:
"I may not always be making up great melodies, but atShouldn't you want that to be the other way around? |
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