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Some of the discussions here have got me thinking about a sound
problem I had recently (and not the first time).

I got a call for a restaurant gig. Guitar, bass, drums and a singer.
When I arrived, I found that the place was basically a single
storefront. As a rough guess, no more than 20 feet wide. The door was
on the left of the front wall and the rest of that wall was the usual
glass window.

There was a table just to the right of the door and, to the right of
that, was the space for the band. It was next to the front window,
along the right hand wall. It ended atthe edge of a bar which ran the
rest of the length of the place on the right.

I don't know how clear that explanation was, but the space for the
band was like 8 x 10 or so (I'm guessing). That sounds like plenty of
room, but the problem was there was a grand piano in it -- which we
had no use for. We pushed it to one side as best we could, but there
wasn't much room left.

The drummer, who had the smallest drums I've seen, like toys almost,
wedged himself in between the piano and the bar (one cymbal so close
to my head I had to use an ear plug). The singer put the PA
electronics under the piano and set up two speaker stands. She
basically sung from inside the crowd. The bass player showed up quite
late and plugged into the PA. Fortunately, he was playing bass guitar
and liked to stand. There wasn't room for another chair.

I had my usual rig, two little amps and my nylon string. I put the
amps on top of the piano (I usually try to get them off the floor) on
some placemats and plugged in like usual. This was before the bassist
showed up.

The sound of the guitar was awful. Very harsh. I don't know how else
to describe it. I'd assume the hardwood of the piano, the glass, the
bar and not too many people at the beginning made it a live, echoey
room.

After a few tunes, I switched to a solid body steel string electric
(for reasons unrelated to the sound problem), the bass player finally
showed up, a crowd formed and the sound was fine. The rest of the gig
went well.

In the past I've found that my stuff sounds much better in a dead
room, i.e. one with lots of upholstery, carpet and people.

But I'm wondering. What can you do in that situation? Does EQ help?
Are there any tricks to improve things in a "live" room like that?

Thanks in advance,

Rick

I used to regularly play in Pizza Express which had loads of glass -
exactly the same problem.

I tried several solutions and the one that worked was to all go
through the pa and have several speakers down each side of the room -
all not very loud. Even though it was a small place we had to have a
small monitor to hear our overall sound.

As for the bass player problem - teach him to tell the time as well
as keep it!

Will

Hi Rick,

wow! that sounds like a tight fit...been there, done that too. I
think it would be difficult to control acoustics in a room. EQ
might be of use, if you've got certain frequencies that are not
repsonding with acceptable dynamics. I have to ask, what kind
of "pickup" are you using for the nylon string? Is it piezo or
something else? I've noticed depending on the acoustics , the piezo
pickup can sound decent at times , and other times it can sound
really brittle and stale.

I've been interested in the schertler systems or pickups for this
reason. I sometimes use a LR Baggs para-acoustic Direct Box to
combat some of the issues inherit with piezo systems. I still think
these systems are beneficial for guitarists rather than trying to
live mic the instrument.

Also, sometimes putting the amp on the floor is OK for some acoustic
problems, and other times it needs to elevated; it really depends on
the acoustics in the room. However, it sounds like a tough call ,
without seeing and hearing the place you're referring too.

good luck!

Donnie Loeffler






--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Rick_Poll"
<richardipollack@y...> wrote:

Some of the discussions here have got me thinking about a sound
problem I had recently (and not the first time).

I got a call for a restaurant gig. Guitar, bass, drums and a

singer.

When I arrived, I found that the place was basically a single
storefront. As a rough guess, no more than 20 feet wide. The door

was

on the left of the front wall and the rest of that wall was the

usual

glass window.

There was a table just to the right of the door and, to the right

of

that, was the space for the band. It was next to the front window,
along the right hand wall. It ended atthe edge of a bar which ran

the

rest of the length of the place on the right.

I don't know how clear that explanation was, but the space for the
band was like 8 x 10 or so (I'm guessing). That sounds like plenty

of

room, but the problem was there was a grand piano in it -- which

we

had no use for. We pushed it to one side as best we could, but

there

wasn't much room left.

The drummer, who had the smallest drums I've seen, like toys

almost,

wedged himself in between the piano and the bar (one cymbal so

close

to my head I had to use an ear plug). The singer put the PA
electronics under the piano and set up two speaker stands. She
basically sung from inside the crowd. The bass player showed up

quite

late and plugged into the PA. Fortunately, he was playing bass

guitar

and liked to stand. There wasn't room for another chair.

I had my usual rig, two little amps and my nylon string. I put the
amps on top of the piano (I usually try to get them off the floor)

on

some placemats and plugged in like usual. This was before the

bassist

showed up.

The sound of the guitar was awful. Very harsh. I don't know how

else

to describe it. I'd assume the hardwood of the piano, the glass,

the

bar and not too many people at the beginning made it a live,

echoey

room.

After a few tunes, I switched to a solid body steel string

electric

(for reasons unrelated to the sound problem), the bass player

finally

showed up, a crowd formed and the sound was fine. The rest of the

gig

went well.

In the past I've found that my stuff sounds much better in a dead
room, i.e. one with lots of upholstery, carpet and people.

But I'm wondering. What can you do in that situation? Does EQ

help?

Are there any tricks to improve things in a "live" room like that?

Thanks in advance,

Rick

Thanks Donnie,

The guitar is a Godin multiac nylon with the hex piezo pickup, run
thru a Boss ME-50 set for a little reverb and stereo chorus.

I did fiddle with the EQ (3 band on each amp, and 3 band on the
guitar (which I always end up with zero treble and mid, 60% bass)). I
didn't accomplish much with the fiddling, frankly. But, it was hard
to even reach the amps -- I had to put the guitar down someplace,
turn around, climb halfway onto the piano, adjust, climb back down,
etc.

Also, I forgot to mention, I was having feedback problems too. I
think the liveness of the room makes that worse as well. That limits
how much bass I can add - even when the higher frequencies sound like
crap. The Godin, like many hollow bodies, is a terrific sounding
guitar, not counting except when it's feeding back, which is often.

Rick



Rick