To look arrogant and toplofty.judgemental, biased. To be fair to Darcy, he was a wealthy bachelor and probably had women falling at his feet when ever he stepped away from his own fireside. He put up with Caroline and the Hursts because he enjoyed Bingley's company. They couldn't follow him to his own house. At this time( when we first meet hi) he is a guest of Bingley, He is probably already tired of Caroline but can't snub his host's sister too much. Nancy On Fri, Dec 6, 2024 at 3:04?PM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io <arnieperlstein@...> wrote: I just noticed something yesterday for the first time after countless
readings and considerations of the following memorable speech by Elizabeth
to Darcy in Chapter 60, which the narrator characterizes as the result of
¡°Elizabeth¡¯s spirits soon rising to playfulness again¡± (a characterization
which, if you think about it, may equally plausibly reflect the assessment
by the author, or by Elizabeth herself, or both):
¡°¡The fact is, that you were sick of civility, of deference, of officious
attention. You were disgusted with the women who were always speaking, and
looking, and thinking for your approbation alone. I roused and interested
you, because I was so unlike them. Had you not been really amiable you
would have hated me for it: but in spite of the pains you took to disguise
yourself, your feelings were always noble and just; and in your heart you
thoroughly despised the persons who so assiduously courted you. There¡ªI
have saved you the trouble of accounting for it; and really, all things
considered, I begin to think it perfectly reasonable. To be sure you know
no actual good of me¡ªbut nobody thinks of that when they fall in love.¡±
What I hadn¡¯t noticed before, as far as I can recall, is this line:
¡°in spite of the pains you took to disguise yourself, your feelings were
always noble and just¡±
What do any of you understand Elizabeth to mean by Darcy¡¯s ¡°disguise¡±?
ARNIE
|
I just noticed something yesterday for the first time after countless
readings and considerations of the following memorable speech by Elizabeth
to Darcy in Chapter 60, which the narrator characterizes as the result of
¡°Elizabeth¡¯s spirits soon rising to playfulness again¡± (a characterization
which, if you think about it, may equally plausibly reflect the assessment
by the author, or by Elizabeth herself, or both):
¡°¡The fact is, that you were sick of civility, of deference, of officious
attention. You were disgusted with the women who were always speaking, and
looking, and thinking for your approbation alone. I roused and interested
you, because I was so unlike them. Had you not been really amiable you
would have hated me for it: but in spite of the pains you took to disguise
yourself, your feelings were always noble and just; and in your heart you
thoroughly despised the persons who so assiduously courted you. There¡ªI
have saved you the trouble of accounting for it; and really, all things
considered, I begin to think it perfectly reasonable. To be sure you know
no actual good of me¡ªbut nobody thinks of that when they fall in love.¡±
What I hadn¡¯t noticed before, as far as I can recall, is this line:
¡°in spite of the pains you took to disguise yourself, your feelings were
always noble and just¡±
What do any of you understand Elizabeth to mean by Darcy¡¯s ¡°disguise¡±?
ARNIE
|
Re: A question about a passive voice construction
I think it is also a way of indicating very mixed emotions. Mr. Bennet is not only angry,
I think he feels betrayed - one of his daughters didn't tattle on her sister. Keeping the
secret is, to him, a disregarding of his authority. He may even be feeling hurt. He may
think that he deserved their support for having trusted them not to disgrace the family.
Austen's opinion can be seen at the end of the novel, when Elizabeth takes Kitty in hand
and re-educates her, with presumably an acceptable marriage in Kitty's future.
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A question about a passive voice construction
Dorothy
Thanks for your cogent reply
I can tell you that I¡¯ve now discussed this very question in two other Austen venues, and what has emerged is even more ambiguity
Turns out you can plausibly read this passage, and a follow up passage in the next chapter when Kitty is briefly cross examined about her possible complicity in Lydia¡¯s scheme, as showing Kitty to either be the object of Mr Bennet¡¯s punitive fury or Lydia¡¯s ¡°useful¡± idiot,
Or various shades of meaning in between.
It¡¯s ambiguous as to who is angry at whom, and whose confidence is referred to.
All completely deliberate on Austen¡¯s part.
Arnie
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On Nov 26, 2024, at 11:53?AM, Dorothy Gannon:
?Arnie, I think your first reading is more on the mark.
Yes, Jane¡¯s statement is passive voice, but I¡¯ve always interpreted that in part as Jane¡¯s nicey nice way of saying that pretty much everyone in the family is really frustrated and ticked off with Kitty for not having spilled the beans ¨C tho, ¡°as it was a matter of confidence¡¡± she immediately also excused her conduct.
Thus, ¡°Kitty has anger¡± directed at her from, basically, her whole family for having kept the dangerous secret.
By the way, isn¡¯t the confidence in question merely that Lydia fancies Mr Wickham? I don¡¯t think the plan, and thus the knowledge, of the ¡°elopement¡± could have been formed until just before desperation forced its execution. Ant the express that followed their departure would have preceded any letter that might have reached Kitty about the actual running away.
Dorothy
Arnie wrote:
After Lydia runs off with Wickham, Jane writes to Elizabeth, in part, as
follows:
¡°and as to my father, I never in my life saw him so affected. Poor Kitty
has anger for having concealed their attachment; but as it was a matter of
confidence, one cannot wonder.¡±
To my 20-21st century ears, this seems an odd, awkward passive voice way of
saying that Mr. Bennet was angry at Kitty ¨C is it that Jane is reluctant to
just come out and say that Papa is really pissed at Kitty, or was this an
archaic way of saying this?
|
Re: A question about a passive voice construction
Arnie, I think your first reading is more on the mark.
Yes, Jane¡¯s statement is passive voice, but I¡¯ve always interpreted that in part as Jane¡¯s nicey nice way of saying that pretty much everyone in the family is really frustrated and ticked off with Kitty for not having spilled the beans ¨C tho, ¡°as it was a matter of confidence¡¡± she immediately also excused her conduct.
Thus, ¡°Kitty has anger¡± directed at her from, basically, her whole family for having kept the dangerous secret.
By the way, isn¡¯t the confidence in question merely that Lydia fancies Mr Wickham? I don¡¯t think the plan, and thus the knowledge, of the ¡°elopement¡± could have been formed until just before desperation forced its execution. Ant the express that followed their departure would have preceded any letter that might have reached Kitty about the actual running away.
Dorothy
Arnie wrote:
After Lydia runs off with Wickham, Jane writes to Elizabeth, in part, as
follows:
¡°and as to my father, I never in my life saw him so affected. Poor Kitty
has anger for having concealed their attachment; but as it was a matter of
confidence, one cannot wonder.¡±
To my 20-21st century ears, this seems an odd, awkward passive voice way of
saying that Mr. Bennet was angry at Kitty ¨C is it that Jane is reluctant to
just come out and say that Papa is really pissed at Kitty, or was this an
archaic way of saying this?
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A question about a passive voice construction
Oh yes Nancy, of course, thank you for pointing to another reading!
I see now that this is another one of those deliberately ambiguous bits of narration that JA winked at in her ¡°dull elves¡± quotation to Cassandra -
It reads perfectly plausibly either as
Mr Bennet¡¯s anger at Kitty for keeping Lydia¡¯s confidence in Lydia¡¯s scheme to run off with Wickham
or
Kitty being angry at Lydia for not having told Kitty test Kitty would be left ¡°holding the bag¡±, so to speak - Kitty probably thought she¡¯d be taken along on an unspecified adventure with Lydia and Wickham, and then they¡¯d all go back to Meryton
- that makes the last narrative comment very ironic, i.e., from Lydia¡¯s point of view Kitty was on a need to know basis, and Kitty might not have cooperated if she had understood the full plan. Pretty cold of Lydia in that event.
Arnie
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On Nov 25, 2024, at 1:41?PM, Nancy Mayer via groups.io <regencyresearcher@...> wrote:
?We need the opinion of people who speak the King's English as it might be
something with which they are more familiar. To me it sounds more as though
Kitty were angry than that someone was angry at Kitty.
I am more concerned about Jane excusing such secrets because they
were told in confidence. While keeping a secret was and is an important
part of a person's honor and character, exceptions should always be made
when a person is involved in something dangerous, immoral, or illegal.
Nancy
On Mon, Nov 25, 2024 at 3:58?PM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:
After Lydia runs off with Wickham, Jane writes to Elizabeth, in part, as
follows:
¡°and as to my father, I never in my life saw him so affected. Poor Kitty
has anger for having concealed their attachment; but as it was a matter of
confidence, one cannot wonder.¡±
To my 20-21st century ears, this seems an odd, awkward passive voice way of
saying that Mr. Bennet was angry at Kitty ¨C is it that Jane is reluctant to
just come out and say that Papa is really pissed at Kitty, or was this an
archaic way of saying this?
ARNIE
|
Re: A question about a passive voice construction
We need the opinion of people who speak the King's English as it might be something with which they are more familiar. To me it sounds more as though Kitty were angry than that someone was angry at Kitty. I am more concerned about Jane excusing such secrets because they were told in confidence. While keeping a secret was and is an important part of a person's honor and character, exceptions should always be made when a person is involved in something dangerous, immoral, or illegal. Nancy On Mon, Nov 25, 2024 at 3:58?PM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io <arnieperlstein@...> wrote: After Lydia runs off with Wickham, Jane writes to Elizabeth, in part, as
follows:
¡°and as to my father, I never in my life saw him so affected. Poor Kitty
has anger for having concealed their attachment; but as it was a matter of
confidence, one cannot wonder.¡±
To my 20-21st century ears, this seems an odd, awkward passive voice way of
saying that Mr. Bennet was angry at Kitty ¨C is it that Jane is reluctant to
just come out and say that Papa is really pissed at Kitty, or was this an
archaic way of saying this?
ARNIE
|
A question about a passive voice construction
After Lydia runs off with Wickham, Jane writes to Elizabeth, in part, as
follows:
¡°and as to my father, I never in my life saw him so affected. Poor Kitty
has anger for having concealed their attachment; but as it was a matter of
confidence, one cannot wonder.¡±
To my 20-21st century ears, this seems an odd, awkward passive voice way of
saying that Mr. Bennet was angry at Kitty ¨C is it that Jane is reluctant to
just come out and say that Papa is really pissed at Kitty, or was this an
archaic way of saying this?
ARNIE
|
Re: Mansfield Park but not focused on Fanny Price
Arnie, J.Austen didn't choose the name for NA.She had named it Susan, earlier before she bought it back. She was revising it. The idea that husbands were wretched to wives was part of Catherine's idea from reading Horror novels. Here own experience was otherwise. I have never understood why you chose that novel to have Austen railing against the English marriage, the state, the military, etc which we do not find elsewhere. . Nancy
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Mansfield Park but not focused on Fanny Price
Tamar, That is an excellent parallel you draw between the three Ward (weird) sisters, and Maria, Julia, and Fanny, which was surely intentional on JA's part. As for your comment about the novel title being about a place, I'd argue (and I am not original in this) that Mansfield Park the estate is a symbol of the British colonial slavery aristocracy/wealthy class oppressing everybody else (not only plantation slaves, but also poor and displaced white people, and all women). Similarly I believe Northanger Abbey the estate is a symbol of the domestic Gothic horror of ordinary English marriage. Austen's social critique was wide-ranging - the entire system, resting on the cooperation of church, state, military and monied interests, was her target. ARNIE On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 4:04?PM Tamar Lindsay via groups.io <dicconf= [email protected]> wrote: IMansfield Pafk is not titled after a main character (like Emma) nor a
character trait (P+P, S+S). It is named after a place (like Northanger
Abbey). It would be possible to consider MP as a study of the t hree
estates: metaphorically man's field but in civilization, a park, not a
forest. Even the forest seen is artificial. It's a story of three sisters
whose marriages reflect three levels of society - the one who ran off and
married down for love (the seaman), and seems content, the one who married
up (we don't know for certain that it was for money and property but that
seems likely), and the one who married Propriety (the churchman). The
nominal heroine and her two cousins are another set of three - one runs off
to marry for love, one marries for money and then tries for love, and Fanny
who is all propriety and marries the churchman.
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Re: Mansfield Park but not focused on Fanny Price
I have always thought it otherwise: Mr. Norris was thee and needed a wife
and he thought it advantageous to marry Lady Bertram's sister. "Miss Ward,
at the end of half a dozen years, found herself obliged to be attached to
the Rev,Mr. Norris, a friend of her brother-in-law with scarcely any
private fortune." As he was a friend of Sir Thomas, I thought he was
probably already established at the church. However, I had missed the next
sentence, where it said that Sir Thomas was able to give his friend the
living. Fortunately, it had become vacant at that time.
Nancy
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Nancy, I always assumed that Mr Norris received the living at Mansfield
because he was married to the sister of Sir Thomas¡¯s wife. Does it state
otherwise somewhere in the novel?
Dorothy
-=
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Re: Mansfield Park but not focused on Fanny Price
Thanks, Tamar. I agree the focus in MP is wide ranging, and to step back a bit from a focus on Fanny makes for a more interesting read and reveals the richness of the novel.
Ellen, I wonder whether Mrs Price would have been happy anywhere. She¡¯s presented as being a not very capable or good manager, also fretful and complaining. It¡¯s hard to imagine Lady Bertram gathering the energy to even mutter a complaint on a good day.
Nancy, I always assumed that Mr Norris received the living at Mansfield because he was married to the sister of Sir Thomas¡¯s wife. Does it state otherwise somewhere in the novel?
Dorothy
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Mansfield Park but not focused on Fanny Price
Yes the love, mercenary class based marriage, sex-based and women must are central ideas in the novel. You can add others characters from Nancy¡¯s implied perspective
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On Nov 21, 2024, at 7:24?PM, Nancy Mayer via groups.io <regencyresearcher@...> wrote:
?It is suggested that Julia's marriage wasn't for love but to escape the
ruin of her sister's divorce. The family wasn't ranked high enough
socially to be able to withstand the scandal. Julia would have been the one
left on the shelf. So, she married someone who would have her. he might
well have loved her.
Fanny and Edmund married for love, on Fanny's part. Edmund held her in
affection and came to love her.
Austen is very ambiguous about the Reason Mrs. Norris married Mr. Norris.
It has been suggested that she wanted Sir Thomas and all he stood for and
married his rector to be close by. I think even before Norris died, she
was taking over the running of the house. When Sir Thomas first married,
he took his wife to Town every Spring for the session of Parliament we
generally call the season. Then when she started staying home, Mrs. Norris
continued to run the house-- or interfere in the running of it.
Nancy
On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 7:04?PM Tamar Lindsay via groups.io <dicconf=
[email protected]> wrote:
IMansfield Pafk is not titled after a main character (like Emma) nor a
character trait (P+P, S+S). It is named after a place (like Northanger
Abbey). It would be possible to consider MP as a study of the t hree
estates: metaphorically man's field but in civilization, a park, not a
forest. Even the forest seen is artificial. It's a story of three sisters
whose marriages reflect three levels of society - the one who ran off and
married down for love (the seaman), and seems content, the one who married
up (we don't know for certain that it was for money and property but that
seems likely), and the one who married Propriety (the churchman). The
nominal heroine and her two cousins are another set of three - one runs off
to marry for love, one marries for money and then tries for love, and Fanny
who is all propriety and marries the churchman.
|
Mansfield Park but not focused on Fanny Price
Thank you, Tamar. I agree titles matter: MP is about all that happens in the house, characters, culture, ethics. Yes the sisters are carefully contested as class, money, and lifestyle.
I disagree: it¡¯s made plain Mrs. price is discontented.
everything in MP includes war, colonialism, political patronage. The male characters¡¯ lives are part of the book¡¯s worlds and themes.
Ellen
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On Nov 21, 2024, at 7:04?PM, Tamar Lindsay via groups.io <dicconf@...> wrote:
?IMansfield Pafk is not titled after a main character (like Emma) nor a character trait (P+P, S+S). It is named after a place (like Northanger Abbey). It would be possible to consider MP as a study of the t hree estates: metaphorically man's field but in civilization, a park, not a forest. Even the forest seen is artificial. It's a story of three sisters whose marriages reflect three levels of society - the one who ran off and married down for love (the seaman), and seems content, the one who married up (we don't know for certain that it was for money and property but that seems likely), and the one who married Propriety (the churchman). The nominal heroine and her two cousins are another set of three - one runs off to marry for love, one marries for money and then tries for love, and Fanny who is all propriety and marries the churchman.
|
Re: Mansfield Park but not focused on Fanny Price
It is suggested that Julia's marriage wasn't for love but to escape the ruin of her sister's divorce. The family wasn't ranked high enough socially to be able to withstand the scandal. Julia would have been the one left on the shelf. So, she married someone who would have her. he might well have loved her. Fanny and Edmund married for love, on Fanny's part. Edmund held her in affection and came to love her. Austen is very ambiguous about the Reason Mrs. Norris married Mr. Norris. It has been suggested that she wanted Sir Thomas and all he stood for and married his rector to be close by. I think even before Norris died, she was taking over the running of the house. When Sir Thomas first married, he took his wife to Town every Spring for the session of Parliament we generally call the season. Then when she started staying home, Mrs. Norris continued to run the house-- or interfere in the running of it. Nancy On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 7:04?PM Tamar Lindsay via groups.io <dicconf= [email protected]> wrote: IMansfield Pafk is not titled after a main character (like Emma) nor a
character trait (P+P, S+S). It is named after a place (like Northanger
Abbey). It would be possible to consider MP as a study of the t hree
estates: metaphorically man's field but in civilization, a park, not a
forest. Even the forest seen is artificial. It's a story of three sisters
whose marriages reflect three levels of society - the one who ran off and
married down for love (the seaman), and seems content, the one who married
up (we don't know for certain that it was for money and property but that
seems likely), and the one who married Propriety (the churchman). The
nominal heroine and her two cousins are another set of three - one runs off
to marry for love, one marries for money and then tries for love, and Fanny
who is all propriety and marries the churchman.
|
Mansfield Park but not focused on Fanny Price
IMansfield Pafk is not titled after a main character (like Emma) nor a character trait (P+P, S+S). It is named after a place (like Northanger Abbey). It would be possible to consider MP as a study of the t hree estates: metaphorically man's field but in civilization, a park, not a forest. Even the forest seen is artificial. It's a story of three sisters whose marriages reflect three levels of society - the one who ran off and married down for love (the seaman), and seems content, the one who married up (we don't know for certain that it was for money and property but that seems likely), and the one who married Propriety (the churchman). The nominal heroine and her two cousins are another set of three - one runs off to marry for love, one marries for money and then tries for love, and Fanny who is all propriety and marries the churchman.
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And of course they have read Lovers Vows before they rehearse it
Arnie
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On Nov 16, 2024, at 1:25?PM, Ellen Moody via groups.io <ellen.moody@...> wrote:
?On reading plays, let me say we have quite a number of character who
read plays. All of them do among the younger characters in Mansfield
Park. At night the adults listen to Shakespeare's Henry 8 read aloud.
Sir Thomas has his sons enact Douglas by John Home, a Scottish blank
verse tragedy (reference to hero, Norval) In Sense and Sensibility the
Dashwoods and Willoughby are slowly making their way through Hamlet.
Granted a lot of Shakespeare, but in MP they know contemporary hits.
People with money can purchase or rent quartos and folios.
Ellen
On Sat, Nov 16, 2024 at 4:03?PM Dorothy Gannon via groups.io
<dorothy.gannon@...> wrote:
Arnie, I¡¯m convinced that whether or not she imagined her characters reading plays, we can probably be certain she herself certainly read them (and heard them read, ¨¤ la Henry Crawford¡¯s reading in the Mansfield Park family circle, growing up). Her dialog has that flavor, and of course, you and others have found many specific examples from plays she would have known.
Dorothy
Arnie:
And finally, the irony about the above discussion vis a vis Austen, is that
the majority of those who love Austen today are people who have never read
her novels, but have seen a movie or play adaptation. So novels she wrote
to be read are instead being experienced as if they were plays!
|
Re: Characters people hate
On reading plays, let me say we have quite a number of character who read plays. All of them do among the younger characters in Mansfield Park. At night the adults listen to Shakespeare's Henry 8 read aloud. Sir Thomas has his sons enact Douglas by John Home, a Scottish blank verse tragedy (reference to hero, Norval) In Sense and Sensibility the Dashwoods and Willoughby are slowly making their way through Hamlet. Granted a lot of Shakespeare, but in MP they know contemporary hits. People with money can purchase or rent quartos and folios. Ellen On Sat, Nov 16, 2024 at 4:03?PM Dorothy Gannon via groups.io <dorothy.gannon@...> wrote:
Arnie, I¡¯m convinced that whether or not she imagined her characters reading plays, we can probably be certain she herself certainly read them (and heard them read, ¨¤ la Henry Crawford¡¯s reading in the Mansfield Park family circle, growing up). Her dialog has that flavor, and of course, you and others have found many specific examples from plays she would have known.
Dorothy
Arnie:
And finally, the irony about the above discussion vis a vis Austen, is that
the majority of those who love Austen today are people who have never read
her novels, but have seen a movie or play adaptation. So novels she wrote
to be read are instead being experienced as if they were plays!
|
Re: Characters people hate
Arnie, I¡¯m convinced that whether or not she imagined her characters reading plays, we can probably be certain she herself certainly read them (and heard them read, ¨¤ la Henry Crawford¡¯s reading in the Mansfield Park family circle, growing up). Her dialog has that flavor, and of course, you and others have found many specific examples from plays she would have known.
Dorothy
Arnie:
And finally, the irony about the above discussion vis a vis Austen, is that
the majority of those who love Austen today are people who have never read
her novels, but have seen a movie or play adaptation. So novels she wrote
to be read are instead being experienced as if they were plays!
|
Re: Those Letters ~ Re: [Trollope&Peers] Recommendations for biographies
Thanks so much, Nancy, Diana, Ellen, and Arnie! This is terrific, very useful info. Am collecting all your replies below, in case there are others wondering what to purchase to dig into the complete letters of Jane Austen.
I have certainly read all of the letters available in the online Braeburn (sp?) edition, and several other partial collections. And I very well remember the reading of the letters you all did on Janeites about 10-12 years ago. I kept up as well as I could, but was just building my business then and had little spare time. I did very much enjoy what I was able to read at that time (thanks to those who helped direct the reading and commentary there).
Thanks again!
Dorothy
Nancy:
They do seem to be selling more selective letters. RW CHapman's Letters are
available for $30 on ebay, Some are on Project Gutenberg.
Diedre Lefaye's book is available for half that.
Diana:
Dorothy, you can get a nice copy of Jane Austen's Letters edited by Deirdre Le Faye for under $10 on abebooks.com <>. We read through the whole thing here on Janeites a few years ago - maybe ten? - and I remember it did take something like three years to work through all of them, but it was one of the best things I ever did online! If you read even a couple a day, you'll get there!
Ellen:
Yes we did a group read of Austen's letters, I did an attempted
(overdone) close reading of all the letters, each and everyone. I
remember that Diane Reynolds did likewise, and maybe Arnie on his own
or chimed in. Others accompanied us, but most people not that
consistently. You will find on my Austen reveries blogs all the many,
many postings, maybe in the hundreds. Here's what's left on my blog ,
intermixed with other postings probably
Unfortunately, I never thought to make a "Austen's letters" or "Jane
Austen's letters" tag or category in all that time. The best you can
do is search for "Jane Austn' letters," which is what I did above.
Would you believe it. That's how non-transactional I am, how little
outwardly, or socially thinking, when I write much of the time, or
used to be (since Jim's death I've changed)
Arnie:
I wholeheartedly recommend extended study of Austen's surviving Letters,
they are a priceless resource for better understanding her personality.
Weren't you a member back in 2011-2012 when we had an extended group read
of the Letters all the way from #1 to the last one? Alas, the archive is
long gone, but I have 50+ posts in my blog (sharpelvessociety.blogspot.com <>)
from that time period that are about the Letters, including my quoting
liberally from discussions in Janeites. As usual, many passages in her
Letters were subject to vigorous disagreements as to their meaning.
As Nancy indicated, Le Faye's Letters (3rd or 4th edition, there is NO
difference between the 2 in terms of content) should be acquirable at a
very moderate cost online, and that is still the best resource out there by
far, as long as you take Le Faye's editorial decisions (especially her
silences where there should be helpful comments, about matters Le Faye
seems to have preferred not to emphasize) with a huge grain of salt. For a
proactive reader willing to search out the relevant history directly
online, the Letters are a treasure trove.
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Arnie Perlstein
Ellen Moody