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Have you seen the musical, Arnie. Is Mr Knightley in it? If Gordin
means "Knightly and Emma's brother and sister to mean Knightley's
brother and Emma's sister, that is what Gordon should have written.
As written, he has written badly, wrongly, carelessly. Ellen

On Mon, Aug 26, 2024 at 12:04?PM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

Ellen,

This is just a case of ambiguous syntax -

“I didn’t need Knightley and Emma’s brother and sister” should more clearly have been written “I didn’t need Knightley s brother or Emma’s sister”.

One ironic caveat: ambiguous sentences like that were sometimes deliberately used by Austen in her fiction in order to lead to two alternative, plausible meanings.

But I’m pretty sure Paul Gordin was just careless.

Arnie

On Aug 26, 2024, at 6:44?AM, Ellen Moody via groups.io <ellen.moody@...> wrote:

?Susan, I admit I didn't read it carefully. I also have seen other
stage adaptations of Austen which omit central characters -- or worse
yet, add new ones.
These musicals are or me by definition not true in any deep sense to Austen.

She wrote ironic satire, not romantic comedy and there is no Utopian
vision anywhere, which is the core of most musicals.

Ellen

On Mon, Aug 26, 2024 at 9:39?AM Susan B via groups.io
<smbiddle15@...> wrote:

Quote: "With Emma, it was immediately apparent to me that I didn’t need Knightley and Emma’s brother and sister, who are a large part of the novel. They would be mentioned, of course, but I didn’t need them to appear, and the musical works quite well without them."

How on earth do you do anything true to Emma without Mr Knightley?! And as far as I recall, Emma doesn't have a brother - just her sister who is married to Knightley's brother ... or does the writer mean Emma's brother-in-law, (John) Knightley?

Susan

On Mon, 26 Aug 2024 at 13:49, Ellen Moody via groups.io <ellen.moody@...> wrote:

Today Sarah Emsley hosts Paul Gordin, the writer of The recent
successful musical made from Sense and Sensibility; if you read with
care you will find she has linked in reviews of her book on Austen
Jane Austen's Philosophy of the Virtues and her edition for Broadview
Press of Edith Wharton's Custom of the Country:



Posted by Ellen

Ellen,

This is just a case of ambiguous syntax -

“I didn’t need Knightley and Emma’s brother and sister” should more clearly have been written “I didn’t need Knightley s brother or Emma’s sister”.

One ironic caveat: ambiguous sentences like that were sometimes deliberately used by Austen in her fiction in order to lead to two alternative, plausible meanings.

But I’m pretty sure Paul Gordin was just careless.

Arnie

I have to discover why my messages go off too early.
Though there are no direct deaths in any of the books, in each a death had
happened before the story begins or occurs off stage, as it were.
In Northanger Abbey, it is Mrs. Tilney's death has hovers over the story.
Though I disagree with Arnie that this death was a protest against multiple
pregnancies,I do agree that it is a necessary background for Elinor
andCatherine.
In Sense and Sensibility , the death of Mr. Dashwood sets the novel in
motion.The death of the Uncle has an effect in that the man left his money
to 4 year old, though the girls' father succeeded to the estate. The novel
would have been entirely different if he had lived to accrue a fortune.
Off hand , I can't think of a death in P &P unless that of Darcy's father
In Mansfield Park it is actually the death of Mr. Norris that affects the
plot.
In Persuasion, the death of the baronet's infant son, and his wife affect
that family. However, the death that draws the most notice is the death of
Richard, and the commentary on the "fat sighs." That incident and death
has probably been discussed most often.
I saved Emma for last because that book is preceded by several deaths.
Emma's mother, Harriet's mother, Frank's mother, Jane's parents are dead
when the story begins, I liked the opening scenes of the movie that
opened with scenes of several funerals.
In Austen's life, it was the death of her father that changed her life
dramatically.


On Mon, Aug 26, 2024 at 11:37?AM Nancy Mayer via groups.io
<regencyresearcher@...> wrote:

Ellen reviews a book by Michael Greany on Academia. Greany covers deaths
in Austen's works. As Ellen reminds us, there are no direct deaths in her
books, though it is assumed that Mrs. Churchill dies before Frank marries
Jane Fairfax.

Ellen reviews a book by Michael Greany on Academia. Greany covers deaths
in Austen's works. As Ellen reminds us, there are no direct deaths in her
books, though it is assumed that Mrs. Churchill dies before Frank marries
Jane Fairfax.

Susan, I admit I didn't read it carefully. I also have seen other
stage adaptations of Austen which omit central characters -- or worse
yet, add new ones.
These musicals are or me by definition not true in any deep sense to Austen.

She wrote ironic satire, not romantic comedy and there is no Utopian
vision anywhere, which is the core of most musicals.

Ellen

On Mon, Aug 26, 2024 at 9:39?AM Susan B via groups.io
<smbiddle15@...> wrote:

Quote: "With Emma, it was immediately apparent to me that I didn’t need Knightley and Emma’s brother and sister, who are a large part of the novel. They would be mentioned, of course, but I didn’t need them to appear, and the musical works quite well without them."

How on earth do you do anything true to Emma without Mr Knightley?! And as far as I recall, Emma doesn't have a brother - just her sister who is married to Knightley's brother ... or does the writer mean Emma's brother-in-law, (John) Knightley?

Susan

On Mon, 26 Aug 2024 at 13:49, Ellen Moody via groups.io <ellen.moody@...> wrote:

Today Sarah Emsley hosts Paul Gordin, the writer of The recent
successful musical made from Sense and Sensibility; if you read with
care you will find she has linked in reviews of her book on Austen
Jane Austen's Philosophy of the Virtues and her edition for Broadview
Press of Edith Wharton's Custom of the Country:



Posted by Ellen

Today Sarah Emsley hosts Paul Gordin, the writer of The recent
successful musical made from Sense and Sensibility; if you read with
care you will find she has linked in reviews of her book on Austen
Jane Austen's Philosophy of the Virtues and her edition for Broadview
Press of Edith Wharton's Custom of the Country:



Posted by Ellen

Auste's brother who was put away probably had a learning disorder. I
was horrified to see GOP officials & voters mocking Tim Walz's son
because they take him to be or call him (ugly terms for)
autistic. How vile of them. Others were mocking Emhoff's daughter. Is
it the boy is not macho male and the girl wears glasses (no
resemblance to Barbie dolls you see).

Well today I came across a good article in the Milwaukee Sentinel
explaining Gus Walz is diagnosed with NVLD, he is superb at verbal
communication but at a loss with non-verbal communication. A lot of
social life depends on non-verbal communication: read this:



Here is an article in Psychology Today: Walz's excellent parents, not
stigmatizing son, not trying to make him neurotypical, but helping him
to cope:



Do read these as this form of neurodivergence is not well known. My
younger daughter is autistic ...

Ellen

Jane Austen also had contemporary women peer writers who were deeply
anti-slavery. Charlotte Smith was the best known in her day. Ellen

On Thu, Aug 22, 2024 at 10:26?AM Nancy Mayer via groups.io
<regencyresearcher@...> wrote:

Read her letters. There are more than passing references to the Clarkston
brothers and abolition. It was her letters that had me researching Sierre
Leone that the Clarkston brothers settled with freed slaves. I once worked
with a lady from Sierre Leone who told me that the Clarkston brothers had
statues of them and streets named after them there. School children study
about the Clarkston brothers in their history classes.
References to Antigua and slavery in the novels can be taken in many ways
in the 21st century that may have been incomprehensible to those of the
19th.
nancy

On Thu, Aug 22, 2024 at 9:54?AM Liz Anne Potamianos via groups.io
<lizannepotamianos@...> wrote:

A good starting place for clues about Jane Austen's views on slavery and
the abolitionist movement can be found in Mansfield Park.

The title alone directs the reader immediately to the Lord Mansfield,
particularly his judgment in the Somerset v Stewart case and his care for
his nephew's illegitimate daughter, Dido Elizabeth Belle, whose mother was
an enslaved woman of African descent. The story of Fanny Price is a thinly
veiled portrait of the difficulties of the life of an enslaved girl.

Liz Anne



On Thursday, August 22, 2024 at 04:09:25 AM EDT, Ellen Moody <
ellen.moody@...> wrote:

Yes. And perhaps Sanditon with use of mulatto heroine.

One wishes for more.

Ellen

On Aug 22, 2024, at 12:46?AM, Tamar Lindsay via groups.io <dicconf=

[email protected]> wrote:

?There are indications in Mansfield Park and Emma.

Read her letters. There are more than passing references to the Clarkston
brothers and abolition. It was her letters that had me researching Sierre
Leone that the Clarkston brothers settled with freed slaves. I once worked
with a lady from Sierre Leone who told me that the Clarkston brothers had
statues of them and streets named after them there. School children study
about the Clarkston brothers in their history classes.
References to Antigua and slavery in the novels can be taken in many ways
in the 21st century that may have been incomprehensible to those of the
19th.
nancy

On Thu, Aug 22, 2024 at 9:54?AM Liz Anne Potamianos via groups.io
<lizannepotamianos@...> wrote:

A good starting place for clues about Jane Austen's views on slavery and
the abolitionist movement can be found in Mansfield Park.

The title alone directs the reader immediately to the Lord Mansfield,
particularly his judgment in the Somerset v Stewart case and his care for
his nephew's illegitimate daughter, Dido Elizabeth Belle, whose mother was
an enslaved woman of African descent. The story of Fanny Price is a thinly
veiled portrait of the difficulties of the life of an enslaved girl.

Liz Anne



On Thursday, August 22, 2024 at 04:09:25 AM EDT, Ellen Moody <
ellen.moody@...> wrote:

Yes. And perhaps Sanditon with use of mulatto heroine.

One wishes for more.

Ellen

On Aug 22, 2024, at 12:46?AM, Tamar Lindsay via groups.io <dicconf=

[email protected]> wrote:

?There are indications in Mansfield Park and Emma.

A good starting place for clues about Jane Austen's views on slavery and the abolitionist movement can be found in Mansfield Park.?

The title alone directs the reader immediately to the Lord Mansfield, particularly his judgment in the Somerset v Stewart case and his care for his nephew's illegitimate daughter, Dido Elizabeth Belle, whose mother was an enslaved woman of African descent. The story of Fanny Price is a thinly veiled portrait of the difficulties of the life of an enslaved girl.

Liz Anne

Yes. And perhaps Sanditon with use of mulatto heroine.

One wishes for more.

Ellen

There are indications in Mansfield Park and Emma.

From Devonet Looser abd also about The Hampshire Chronicle




I agree with Susan below, the evidence mostly shows that as part of
their professions George Austen and his sons were variously involved
at a distance in the slave trade or the British gov't's ant-slavery
activities. The evidence showing extra personal in put is about
Francis Auste, but also Jane's own admiration for Thomas Clarkson. Of
course contempoary readers and writers today are eager to show Austen
and what members of the family they can even abolitionists.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2024 at 6:25?PM Susan B via groups.io
<smbiddle15@...> wrote:

thanks very much, Tyler - I knew about the connections with the navy and that this would have involved policing slave-trade ships, but not about the personal abolitionist activities. The Hampshire Chronicle is still going strong - my parents read it most weeks.

The Conversation looks a thoughtful publication - thanks again for sharing this

Best wishes
Susan

On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 at 23:14, Tyler Tichelaar via groups.io <tyler@...> wrote:

_._,_._,_

DOROTHY: “….Shakespeare's Richard III

“

Thanks, Hope! Given JA’s great familiarity with Shakespeare, including *Richard
III* (recall the beginning of *Northanger Abbey*), I have just delved into
this possible allusion for a while, and now I am certain that Jane Austen
actually did have that passage in *Richard III *very much in mind when she
wrote that seemingly trivial phrase “with interest” about Emma’s nonverbal
response to Mrs. Weston:



To set it up, in Act 4, Scene 4, of *Richard III*, Richard demonstrates one
more time his seemingly infinite chutzpah, when he urges the former Queen
Elizabeth, the widow of the former King Edward (whom Richard has murdered),
to persuade her daughter to accept Richard’s wooing. Richard uses the
metaphor of interest on a loan, suggesting that if the Queen complies with
his urgings, her grieving tears shall bear interest by being transformed
into pearls (i.e., the rewards Richard has promised):



RICHARD III

摆…闭

The King that calles your beauteous Daughter Wife,

Familiarly shall call thy *Dor**s**et*, Brother:

Againe shall you be Mother to a King:

And all the Ruines of distressefull Times,

Repayr'd with double Riches of Content.

What? we haue many goodly dayes to see:

The liquid drops of Teares that you haue shed,

Shall come againe, transform'd to Orient Pearle,

Aduantaging their Loue, with interest

Often-times double gaine of happinesse.

Go then (my Mother) to thy Daughter go,

Make bold her bashfull yeares, with your experience,

Prepare her eares to heare a Woers Tale.

Put in her tender heart, th'aspiring Flame

Of Golden Soueraignty: Acquaint the Princesse

With the sweet silent houres of Marriage ioyes:

And when this Arme of mine hath chastised

The petty Rebell, dull-brain'd *Buckingham*,

Bound with Triumphant Garlands will I come,

And leade thy daughter to a Conquerors bed:

To whom I will retaile my Conquest wonne,

And she shal be sole Victoresse, *C**ae**s**ars C**ae**s**ar*



I’ll leave it to you to infer what I am driving at – it’s all about
nephews. ;)



ARNIE

In this case Google nGrams might be a useful tool for considering how, and how frequently, the word or phrase was used in a broad range of publications in any given year. There are many legal or economic examples where you will find them used as expected but a brief search turned up these two with usage more in line with your note.

Shakespeare's Richard III


E. B. Impey, Cumnor, or, The Bugle Horn


Hope

The yearly almanacks, an some monthly magazines often had a page listing
the stocks and consoles at 3, 3.5, 4, and 5 %. On certain days during the
year the interest would be paid on these. Though it was usually the men who
paid attention to such things, a woman as brilliant as Austen with as many
interests as she had, would have been very much aware of interest bearing
accounts. Then there was her brother's bank inwhich she had an
interest from which she received interest until it went bankrupt. However,
that said, I agree that returning anything except a sum of money "with
interest" does sound a modern saying.
Nancy

On Sat, Aug 17, 2024 at 12:58?PM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

When Emma worriedly tests Knightley’s possible romantic interest in Jane
Fairfax in Chapter 33, we read this:



[Emma] “…..The extent of your admiration may take you by surprize some day
or other.”

Mr. Knightley was hard at work upon the lower buttons of his thick leather
gaiters, and either the exertion of getting them together, or some other
cause, brought the colour into his face, as he answered, “Oh! are you
there?—But you are miserably behindhand. Mr. Cole gave me a hint of it six
weeks ago.”

He stopped.—Emma felt her foot pressed by Mrs. Weston, and did not herself
know what to think. In a moment he went on—“That will never be, however, I
can assure you. Miss Fairfax, I dare say, would not have me if I were to
ask her—and I am very sure I shall never ask her.”

Emma returned her friend’s pressure with interest; and was pleased enough
to exclaim,

“You are not vain, Mr. Knightley. I will say that for you.”



I never before looked closely at this sentence: “Emma returned her friend’s
pressure with interest”.


It reminded me of a phrase I’ve often heard from commentators at tennis
matches, in which one player returned the other’s fast serve “with
interest” – i.e., faster, as if the ball, metaphorically, was an
interest-bearing obligation. And it makes sense in this context, because
Emma feels a surge of relief when Knightley disclaims any such interest in
Jane. Naturally, Emma would gleefully press Mrs. Weston’s foot harder than
the latter’s original nudge.



I’ve reread that line of narration several times, and it doesn’t make sense
any other way I can see. In particular, it doesn’t make sense to read
“interest” as referring to Emma’s being interested to hear more from Mrs.
Weston.



Of course, as Auden famously wrote, Jane Austen understood the mathematics
of money, including how interest-bearing financial instruments operated. We
get strong evidence of that in Chapter 19 of P&P when Mr. Collins assures
Elizabeth that he understands that she would bring limited income to a
marriage. Even though he doesn’t explicitly use the word “interest”, it’s
clear from his reference to “the 4 per cents”:



“To fortune I am perfectly indifferent, and shall make no demand of that
nature on your father, since I am well aware that it could not be complied
with; and that one thousand pounds in the 4 per cents, which will not be
yours till after your mother’s decease, is all that you may ever be
entitled to.”



I also checked the OED, and found a couple of metaphorical usages in that
metaphorical, financial sense predating Austen, including one by Daniel
Defoe, so JA would not have been the originator of that usage. All the
same, it struck me today as a startlingly modern turn of phrase, given that
it has become mainstream colloquial English in the present day.



ARNIE

When Emma worriedly tests Knightley’s possible romantic interest in Jane
Fairfax in Chapter 33, we read this:



[Emma] “…..The extent of your admiration may take you by surprize some day
or other.”

Mr. Knightley was hard at work upon the lower buttons of his thick leather
gaiters, and either the exertion of getting them together, or some other
cause, brought the colour into his face, as he answered, “Oh! are you
there?—But you are miserably behindhand. Mr. Cole gave me a hint of it six
weeks ago.”

He stopped.—Emma felt her foot pressed by Mrs. Weston, and did not herself
know what to think. In a moment he went on—“That will never be, however, I
can assure you. Miss Fairfax, I dare say, would not have me if I were to
ask her—and I am very sure I shall never ask her.”

Emma returned her friend’s pressure with interest; and was pleased enough
to exclaim,

“You are not vain, Mr. Knightley. I will say that for you.”



I never before looked closely at this sentence: “Emma returned her friend’s
pressure with interest”.


It reminded me of a phrase I’ve often heard from commentators at tennis
matches, in which one player returned the other’s fast serve “with
interest” – i.e., faster, as if the ball, metaphorically, was an
interest-bearing obligation. And it makes sense in this context, because
Emma feels a surge of relief when Knightley disclaims any such interest in
Jane. Naturally, Emma would gleefully press Mrs. Weston’s foot harder than
the latter’s original nudge.



I’ve reread that line of narration several times, and it doesn’t make sense
any other way I can see. In particular, it doesn’t make sense to read
“interest” as referring to Emma’s being interested to hear more from Mrs.
Weston.



Of course, as Auden famously wrote, Jane Austen understood the mathematics
of money, including how interest-bearing financial instruments operated. We
get strong evidence of that in Chapter 19 of P&P when Mr. Collins assures
Elizabeth that he understands that she would bring limited income to a
marriage. Even though he doesn’t explicitly use the word “interest”, it’s
clear from his reference to “the 4 per cents”:



“To fortune I am perfectly indifferent, and shall make no demand of that
nature on your father, since I am well aware that it could not be complied
with; and that one thousand pounds in the 4 per cents, which will not be
yours till after your mother’s decease, is all that you may ever be
entitled to.”



I also checked the OED, and found a couple of metaphorical usages in that
metaphorical, financial sense predating Austen, including one by Daniel
Defoe, so JA would not have been the originator of that usage. All the
same, it struck me today as a startlingly modern turn of phrase, given that
it has become mainstream colloquial English in the present day.



ARNIE

ELLEN: "A very promising title, Arnie. Congratulations -- you must mean
2027. I've only presented once, that Portland one you presented at, 2010"

I presented a breakout session with that title in Huntingdon Beach at the
2017 AGM.


ELLEN: I read enough of your email to see you used some of what I
speculated on Galigai. I remember I was told afterwards I had
misunderstood something. I know I didn't come up with your inference about
Austen as strongly commercially ambitious -- though she was not
unambitious."

The reference to Gailgai in her letter is all about a sisterhood of
strong-minded women - Galigai, like Joan of Arc, was burned as a witch,
punishment for her strong mind (and also her perhaps erotic power over
Maria de Medici).

Indeed we disagree about there being any other meaning in those final
epistolary words of JA.

Glad you won't need more neurological intervention!'

ARNIE

New diary entry: I will not after all have to have a neurological
procedure which might preclude repetitions of this stroke, so I tried
to look ahead past what was a fearful turn:



Ellen

A very promising title, Arnie. Congratulations -- you must mean 2027.
I've only presented once, that Portland one you presented at, 2010

I read enough of your email to see you used some of what I speculated
on Galigai. I remember I was told afterwards I had misunderstood
something. I know I didn't come up with your inference about Austen
as strongly commercially ambitious -- though she was not unambitious.
Just to say I disagree with what you did with or think about the
significance of this French material in Austen's life. Simply she
never knew or personally cultivated these people -- as we see when she
declines to go to a party Madame de Stael is at. But they knew and
admired her work. Especially de Montolieu who in effect rewrote S&S
in French (still in print as a translation) and a free translation of
Persuasion. She also read & admired MP: she said so.

The French sources are very important. Recently I was asked to write
an entry for an encyclopedia article on Isabelle de Montolieu (this
past March while I was in Rehab), based on all the work I did on her
in my online edition of Caroline de Lichtfield.



Unfortunately it was 20 years ago and would take heroic efforts to
bring back to my mind, were I well enough. I'm not. I had to decline
but said they were welcome to use all I wrote and all sources I found.
Even at the time I was very unsure of what I concluded beyond what
close reading can tell you. I knew no one and have never been able to
network or travel in a monetized way or career-related way. I am less
able than ever now.

But congratulations -- you'll probably bring in new information. I
hope you read French, for a lot of this stuff (especially written in
Switzerland) is not translated into English

Ellen