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As I do not believe Jane Fairfax is pregnant,I took her increased bloom to
be because Frank Churchill is nearby. That is before she is treated badly
by hm.
Nancy

On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 7:14?AM Liz Anne Potamianos via groups.io
<lizannepotamianos@...> wrote:

Arnie, I interpreted Emma's comment, "There, not to be vulgar, was
distinction, and merit.", to mean that Emma thought that no one in Highbury
had any elegance, and that few were not vulgar.
I also identified Jane's "fuller bloom" as referring to her pregnancy. It
would be amusing if Austen was referring to the royal dalliances, the
illegitimate children (i.e. Fitz- ) with this statement. It also ties back
to the charade in Chapter 9:
"It was a style of beauty, of which elegance was the reigning character,
and as such, she must, in honour, by all her principles, admire
it:—*elegance*, which, whether of person or of mind, she saw so little in
Highbury."
"My first displays the wealth and pomp of kings, Lords of the earth! their
luxury and ease.Another view of man, my second brings, Behold him there,
the monarch of the seas!But, ah! united, what reverse we have!Man's boasted
power and freedom, all are flown;Lord of the earth and sea, he bends a
slave, And woman, lovely woman, reigns alone. Thy ready wit the word will
soon supply, May its approval beam in that soft eye!"

Liz Anne




On Monday, October 21, 2024 at 01:31:47 AM EDT, Arnie Perlstein <
arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

[Jane’s] eyes, a deep grey, with dark eye-lashes and eyebrows, had never
been denied their praise; but the skin, which she had been used to cavil
at, as wanting colour, had a clearness and delicacy which really needed no
fuller bloom. It was a style of beauty, of which elegance was the reigning
character, and as such, she must, in honour, by all her principles, admire
it:—*elegance*, which, whether of person or of mind, she saw so little in
Highbury. *There, not to be vulgar, was distinction, and merit."*


As Emma contemplates Jane shortly after Jane's arrival in Highbury in Ch.
20, she grudgingly acknowledges the elegance of Jane's style of beauty, and
feels she must admire it, in comparison to what she sees in other females
in Highbury.


Why does Emma then think, "not to be vulgar", that this constituted Jane's
"distinction and merit". Is it Emma's sense that Jane is no great shakes to
stand out in Highbury, because there is no real competition? If so, then,
Emma is in effect, undercutting her admiration as soon as she thinks it,
because in fact, she is jealous of Jane's elegance but hates to admit it?
Or
is Emma, in her snobbery, characterizing her thoughts as "vulgar" for some
other reason I am missing?


ARNIE

Even more brilliant, Liz Anne - indeed!! With Austen it sometimes is just a
single word, that can, like Archimedes's proverbial lever, exert tremendous
force on the mind of a sensitive reader like yourself, and transport us to
a brave, new "world" of the novel in a whole new "orbit"! ;)

ARNIE

On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 6:59?AM Liz Anne Potamianos via groups.io
<lizannepotamianos@...> wrote:

This is another example of Austen’s ambiguity.


What does “there” in *”There, not to be vulgar, was distinction, and
merit."*


“There” could refer to 1. Jane Fairfax or 2. Highbury.


Liz Anne

On Oct 21, 2024, at 09:27, Nancy Mayer <regencyresearcher@...>

wrote:

?The word vulgar did not have any meaning of obscenity,it just meant
"common" such as the common people- laborers and such. The word still
retained the meaning it had when the Vulgate Bible was published-- the
Bible in the language of the common people which at that time was Latin.

I

think, Emma means that assessing Jane's looks wasn't something a person

of

the gentry and up would do-- though , of course, they did.
Nancy

On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 1:31?AM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

[Jane’s] eyes, a deep grey, with dark eye-lashes and eyebrows, had never
been denied their praise; but the skin, which she had been used to cavil
at, as wanting colour, had a clearness and delicacy which really needed

no

fuller bloom. It was a style of beauty, of which elegance was the

reigning

character, and as such, she must, in honour, by all her principles,

admire

it:—*elegance*, which, whether of person or of mind, she saw so little

in

Highbury. *There, not to be vulgar, was distinction, and merit."*


As Emma contemplates Jane shortly after Jane's arrival in Highbury in

Ch.

20, she grudgingly acknowledges the elegance of Jane's style of beauty,

and

feels she must admire it, in comparison to what she sees in other

females

in Highbury.


Why does Emma then think, "not to be vulgar", that this constituted

Jane's

"distinction and merit". Is it Emma's sense that Jane is no great

shakes to

stand out in Highbury, because there is no real competition? If so,

then,

Emma is in effect, undercutting her admiration as soon as she thinks it,
because in fact, she is jealous of Jane's elegance but hates to admit

it?

Or
is Emma, in her snobbery, characterizing her thoughts as "vulgar" for

some

other reason I am missing?


ARNIE

??Thank you very much, Liz Anne — yes, as you know well, I’m approaching
the 20th anniversary of my insight that Jane Fairfax says “It must be
born(e)” near the end of the novel, because she is then in labor, after
having confined herself to Highbury for her last 2 trimesters. That was
when I finally realized, after 2 1/2 years of finding more and more clues
scattered among the 6 novels, that there were shadow stories in every one
of them.

I find brilliant your extension of the more mainstream idea of “elegance”
as (to channel Miss Bingley) an acquired accomplishment of higher class
women, as is your connecting that idea to the courtship/Prince of Whales
charade - brava!!

NANCY: “?The word vulgar did not have any meaning of obscenity, it just
meant "common" such as the common people- laborers and such. The word still
retained the meaning it had when the Vulgate Bible was published-- the
Bible in the language of the common people which at that time was Latin.
I think Emma means that assessing Jane's looks wasn't something a person
of the gentry and up would do-- though , of course, they did.”

Nancy, I think it’s pretty clear that even in JA’s era, the meanings of
"vulgar" as (i) a reference to social class, and as (II) a reference to a
lack of manners and “air” as per Miss Bingley (and Emma, whose snobbery is
similar), already had a great deal of overlap - if a woman was busy earning
a living by hard work, it was a luxury to “learn” how to behave with
refined manners.

But I particularly like Stephanie’s and your similar focus on the
unwittingly ironically vulgar behavior of a supposedly "elegant" woman
asserting and judging others as vulgar based on nothing other than class
snobbery. But...I don’t however think that’s how Emma meant it when she
thought it - that is what I think Austen meant for us to think about Emma
thinking her self-deluding meaning. JA clear understood the difference
between superficial "vulgarity" and the deeper, and truly meaningfully
wrong vulgarity of the heart, mind and soul.

That's exactly what JA’s niece Fanny Knight Knatchbull (the primary
real-life model, I’ve long asserted, for Emma Woodhouse) did in her
infamous truly vulgar letter to her sister a half century after JA’s death,
when she called her aunts Jane and Cassandra “vulgar”. Maybe by then Fanny
had finally realized that she had been skewered satirically as “Emma”, and
she was just a little peeved about that unflattering, all-too-revealing
portrait of her.


I’m puzzled, however, by why you made reference to “obscenity”. Where did
that come from? Neither I nor Liz Anne referred to “smut”. Are you
suggesting that a complex, poignant, veiled fictional depiction by JA of a
pregnancy outside wedlock would constitute “obscenity”? Maybe I've missed
your point.

I deliberately used that Anglo-Saxon term “smut” just then, because that
word “obscenity” sorta put me in remind (as JA might have put it) of its
being used by the final plenary speaker at the just concluded JASNA. He
vulgarly, inelegantly, and seemingly homophobically, used it in responding
during the q&a to an attendee's favorable mention of “Pride and
Prometheus”, an Austen mashup of P&P and Persuasion, in which, apparently,
the famous fossil hunter Mary Anning and Mary Bennet fall in love with each
other in Lyme. A number of us in the audience were not pleased to hear such
a sentiment expressed by someone who was given the privilege of addressing
700 attendees at the farewell luncheon.

Arnie

This is another example of Austen’s ambiguity.


What does “there” in *”There, not to be vulgar, was distinction, and merit."*


“There” could refer to 1. Jane Fairfax or 2. Highbury.


Liz Anne

The word vulgar did not have any meaning of obscenity,it just meant
"common" such as the common people- laborers and such. The word still
retained the meaning it had when the Vulgate Bible was published-- the
Bible in the language of the common people which at that time was Latin. I
think, Emma means that assessing Jane's looks wasn't something a person of
the gentry and up would do-- though , of course, they did.
Nancy

On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 1:31?AM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

[Jane’s] eyes, a deep grey, with dark eye-lashes and eyebrows, had never
been denied their praise; but the skin, which she had been used to cavil
at, as wanting colour, had a clearness and delicacy which really needed no
fuller bloom. It was a style of beauty, of which elegance was the reigning
character, and as such, she must, in honour, by all her principles, admire
it:—*elegance*, which, whether of person or of mind, she saw so little in
Highbury. *There, not to be vulgar, was distinction, and merit."*


As Emma contemplates Jane shortly after Jane's arrival in Highbury in Ch.
20, she grudgingly acknowledges the elegance of Jane's style of beauty, and
feels she must admire it, in comparison to what she sees in other females
in Highbury.


Why does Emma then think, "not to be vulgar", that this constituted Jane's
"distinction and merit". Is it Emma's sense that Jane is no great shakes to
stand out in Highbury, because there is no real competition? If so, then,
Emma is in effect, undercutting her admiration as soon as she thinks it,
because in fact, she is jealous of Jane's elegance but hates to admit it?
Or
is Emma, in her snobbery, characterizing her thoughts as "vulgar" for some
other reason I am missing?


ARNIE

Arnie, I interpreted Emma's comment, "There, not to be vulgar, was distinction, and merit.", to mean that Emma thought that no one in Highbury had any elegance, and that few were not vulgar.
I also identified Jane's "fuller bloom" as referring to her pregnancy. It would be amusing if Austen was referring to the royal dalliances, the illegitimate children (i.e. Fitz- ) with this statement. It also ties back to the charade in Chapter 9:
"It was a style of beauty, of which elegance was the reigning?character, and as such, she must, in honour, by all her principles, admire it:—*elegance*, which, whether of person or of mind, she saw so little in Highbury."
"My first displays the wealth and pomp of kings, Lords of the earth! their luxury and ease.Another view of man, my second brings, Behold him there, the monarch of the seas!But, ah! united, what reverse we have!Man's boasted power and freedom, all are flown;Lord of the earth and sea, he bends a slave, And woman, lovely woman, reigns alone. Thy ready wit the word will soon supply, May its approval beam in that soft eye!"

Liz Anne

Enjoy!

It was nice chatting with you and our table mates at the banquet - it was well worth the effort of assembling a good.

Arnie

I'm still in Cleveland. Going to the Football Hall of Fame in Canton
Monday, then back to Portland Monday evening.

On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 2:10?AM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

Interesting, Stephanie, thanks!!

Have you made it back to Pdx yet? I’m about to take off from Sea-Tac to
get back to Portland before midnight.

Wasn’t it a great AGM??

Arnie

On Oct 20, 2024, at 10:40?PM, Stephanie Vardavas via groups.io

<vardavas@...> wrote:

?I have always thought that this was about the vulgarity of presuming to
compliment a person's "merit" based strictly on their appearance.

On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 1:31?AM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

[Jane’s] eyes, a deep grey, with dark eye-lashes and eyebrows, had never
been denied their praise; but the skin, which she had been used to cavil
at, as wanting colour, had a clearness and delicacy which really needed

no

fuller bloom. It was a style of beauty, of which elegance was the

reigning

character, and as such, she must, in honour, by all her principles,

admire

it:—*elegance*, which, whether of person or of mind, she saw so little

in

Highbury. *There, not to be vulgar, was distinction, and merit."*


As Emma contemplates Jane shortly after Jane's arrival in Highbury in

Ch.

20, she grudgingly acknowledges the elegance of Jane's style of beauty,

and

feels she must admire it, in comparison to what she sees in other

females

in Highbury.


Why does Emma then think, "not to be vulgar", that this constituted

Jane's

"distinction and merit". Is it Emma's sense that Jane is no great

shakes to

stand out in Highbury, because there is no real competition? If so,

then,

Emma is in effect, undercutting her admiration as soon as she thinks it,
because in fact, she is jealous of Jane's elegance but hates to admit

it?

Or
is Emma, in her snobbery, characterizing her thoughts as "vulgar" for

some

other reason I am missing?


ARNIE

--
NOTE: Effective February 1, 2022, my office hours are from 12 noon to 5

pm,

Monday through Friday, and by appointment during other hours.
<

Stephanie Vardavas
stephanievardavas.com
<

*Specializing
in product safety and regulatory compliance for consumer products, as

well

as licensing and sports marketing, including sponsorships and

endorsements.

Also supporting nonprofits and simple trademark registrations.*

*Pronouns: she/her/hers*

*This email may be confidential and privileged. If you have received it

in

error, please respond to advise sender of the error and then delete the
email and any attachments. Thank you.*

Interesting, Stephanie, thanks!!

Have you made it back to Pdx yet? I’m about to take off from Sea-Tac to get back to Portland before midnight.

Wasn’t it a great AGM??

Arnie

I have always thought that this was about the vulgarity of presuming to
compliment a person's "merit" based strictly on their appearance.



On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 1:31?AM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

[Jane’s] eyes, a deep grey, with dark eye-lashes and eyebrows, had never
been denied their praise; but the skin, which she had been used to cavil
at, as wanting colour, had a clearness and delicacy which really needed no
fuller bloom. It was a style of beauty, of which elegance was the reigning
character, and as such, she must, in honour, by all her principles, admire
it:—*elegance*, which, whether of person or of mind, she saw so little in
Highbury. *There, not to be vulgar, was distinction, and merit."*


As Emma contemplates Jane shortly after Jane's arrival in Highbury in Ch.
20, she grudgingly acknowledges the elegance of Jane's style of beauty, and
feels she must admire it, in comparison to what she sees in other females
in Highbury.


Why does Emma then think, "not to be vulgar", that this constituted Jane's
"distinction and merit". Is it Emma's sense that Jane is no great shakes to
stand out in Highbury, because there is no real competition? If so, then,
Emma is in effect, undercutting her admiration as soon as she thinks it,
because in fact, she is jealous of Jane's elegance but hates to admit it?
Or
is Emma, in her snobbery, characterizing her thoughts as "vulgar" for some
other reason I am missing?


ARNIE

--
NOTE: Effective February 1, 2022, my office hours are from 12 noon to 5 pm,
Monday through Friday, and by appointment during other hours.
<>
Stephanie Vardavas
stephanievardavas.com
<>
*Specializing
in product safety and regulatory compliance for consumer products, as well
as licensing and sports marketing, including sponsorships and endorsements.
Also supporting nonprofits and simple trademark registrations.*

*Pronouns: she/her/hers*

*This email may be confidential and privileged. If you have received it in
error, please respond to advise sender of the error and then delete the
email and any attachments. Thank you.*

[Jane’s] eyes, a deep grey, with dark eye-lashes and eyebrows, had never
been denied their praise; but the skin, which she had been used to cavil
at, as wanting colour, had a clearness and delicacy which really needed no
fuller bloom. It was a style of beauty, of which elegance was the reigning
character, and as such, she must, in honour, by all her principles, admire
it:—*elegance*, which, whether of person or of mind, she saw so little in
Highbury. *There, not to be vulgar, was distinction, and merit."*


As Emma contemplates Jane shortly after Jane's arrival in Highbury in Ch.
20, she grudgingly acknowledges the elegance of Jane's style of beauty, and
feels she must admire it, in comparison to what she sees in other females
in Highbury.


Why does Emma then think, "not to be vulgar", that this constituted Jane's
"distinction and merit". Is it Emma's sense that Jane is no great shakes to
stand out in Highbury, because there is no real competition? If so, then,
Emma is in effect, undercutting her admiration as soon as she thinks it,
because in fact, she is jealous of Jane's elegance but hates to admit it? Or
is Emma, in her snobbery, characterizing her thoughts as "vulgar" for some
other reason I am missing?


ARNIE

The conference (live) was one of the better ones among the 15 I’ve attended since 2005.

Arnie

2nd day of 3. Today I found only one of the JASNA talks of interest to
me; the speakers were aiming at someone who knows less. Savige's talk
about Austen's copy of Isaac D'Istaeli's Curiosities of literature put
bfore me new matter and that it's connected to Austen as a book she
owned and probably read.

As with people where babies and children, adolescents too, are
psychologically different from adults, I can see that kittens are
psychologically different from adult cats.

On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 8:59?PM Ellen Moody via groups.io
<ellen.moody@...> wrote:

with a little bit about my baby kittens

I very much enjoyed Austen sessions at virtual or livestream JASNA
today; in a way much better than with going to conference which I find
stressful, lonely, with long periods with nothing for me to do. I took
off from 2 sessions and did what I wanted here then. I am capable of
only a few scratched out notes but if I write up Sunday night when
memory still fresh enough I can tell a little of the excellent
sessions I attended.

Kitties had a good day today: I woke to find them sleeping near me;
then they waited with me while I write to my good friend, Rory who
lives in Ireland my usual morning letter (on my ipad) in response to
his, and the sun came up. I went to the kitchen, and for the first
time they simply followed and I could see were hungry.

Fiona aggressive and if I put 2 bowls out she goes between hers and
Ellie's and Ellie waits until Fiona's done. Same pattern of awareness
at 5 pm -- and Ellie pushed to wait.

Periods of intense play. If I'm not mistaken, the two kittens were
playing hide and seek. Fiona was hiding behind bathroom door; Elinor
trying to make her come round; then they reversed roles. They squeeked
and squeeled -- that's why I saw this. Could my interpretation be
correct? Then apparent game evolved into wild wrestling and
playbiting.

I must keep them from library table with modem in computer work room
but they understood they should not go there quickly (went anyway).

Ellen

ME BEFORE: "Nope, I don’t buy that one at all. You seem to accept 顿补谤肠测’蝉
view of what is proper and what is not . . ."

DOROTHY: "Actually, my point was that Bingley accepts 顿补谤肠测’蝉 view. There
is a lot made of 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 dependence on 顿补谤肠测’蝉 persuasion (or a
“friend’s” persuasion) in an early pivotal scene in the novel, when
Elizabeth stays at Netherfield."

That would be this one:

To yield readily—easily—to the *persuasion* of a friend is no merit with
测辞耻.”

“To yield without conviction is no compliment to the understanding of
别颈迟丑别谤.”

“You appear to me, Mr. Darcy, to allow nothing for the influence of
friendship and affection. A regard for the requester would often make one
readily yield to a request, without waiting for arguments to reason one
into it. I am not particularly speaking of such a case as you have supposed
about Mr. Bingley. We may as well wait, perhaps, till the circumstance
occurs, before we discuss the discretion of his behaviour thereupon. But in
general and ordinary cases, between friend and friend, where one of them is
desired by the other to change a resolution of no very great moment, should
you think ill of that person for complying with the desire, without waiting
to be argued into it?”

“Will it not be advisable, before we proceed on this subject, to arrange
with rather more precision the degree of importance which is to appertain
to this request, as well as the degree of intimacy subsisting between the
辫补谤迟颈别蝉?”

“By all means,” cried Bingley; “let us hear all the particulars, not
forgetting their comparative height and size, for that will have more
weight in the argument, Miss Bennet, than you may be aware of. I assure you
that if Darcy were not such a great tall fellow, in comparison with myself,
I should not pay him half so much deference. I declare I do not know a more
awful object than Darcy on particular occasions, and in particular places;
at his own house especially, and of a Sunday evening, when he has nothing
to do.”


That discussion shows that Darcy is well aware of Bingley's trusting
Darcy's persuasion due to their strong degree of intimacy, and other
aspects of their personalities. and he abuses that trust, and even boasts
about it to Col. Fitzwilliam!

When Bingley's relationship with Jane was on the line, Bingley, feeling
insecure about Jane's feelings for him, thought he could trust his older,
more worldly, best friend Darcy to have his (Bingley's) best interest at
heart. It would be an essential part of that fiduciary duty for Darcy not
to lie to Bingley, or deceive him by concealing important information, and
certainly not to meddle so as to deliberately break Bingley up from Jane.
Why does that make Bingley weak-willed? It makes Darcy a terrible person,
he knows exactly what he's doing, and he's basically acting like a master
of the universe who can do whatever he wants.

Note that we read the below debriefing by Darcy in Chapter 58 about Bingley
being angry at Darcy. Of course Bingley was angry, that was nearly 5 months
of happiness that Darcy cost Bingley and Jane. The person who makes too
much out of Bingley's dependence on Darcy in the interim is Elizabeth, in
rationalizing repeatedly why she shouldn't lift a finger to at least try to
get her father to contact Bingley. It's total nonsense to blame Bingley as
weak-willed, instead of what she should have done, which is not to
victim-blame, but instead to out Darcy's unforgivable interference to her
father, putting Jane's interest ahead of her own, and to thereby give
Bingley a chance to recognize that his trusted friend had profoundly
betrayed his trust.

Even at the end of the following passage, Elizabeth holds back from
criticizing Darcy for what he did, and rationalizes that cowardice as "He
doesn't know how to laugh at himself" - no, it's because she doesn't want
to do anything to upset Darcy, and perhaps have him change his mind about
making her the mistress of Pemberley. He's already shown a propensity for
disregarding the feelings of others when they offend his very thin skin.

“What could have become of Mr. Bingley and Jane?” was a wonder which
introduced the discussion of *their* affairs. Darcy was delighted with
their engagement; his friend had given him the earliest information of it.

“I must ask whether you were surprised?” said Elizabeth.

“Not at all. When I went away, I felt that it would soon happen.”

“That is to say, you had given your permission. I guessed as much.” And
though he exclaimed at the term, she found that it had been pretty much the
case.

“On the evening before my going to London,” said he, “I made a confession
to him, which I believe I ought to have made long ago. I told him of all
that had occurred to make my former interference in his affairs absurd and
impertinent. His surprise was great. He had never had the slightest
suspicion. I told him, moreover, that I believed myself mistaken in
supposing, as I had done, that your sister was indifferent to him; and as I
could easily perceive that his attachment to her was unabated, I felt no
doubt of their happiness together.”

Elizabeth could not help smiling at his easy manner of directing his friend.

“Did you speak from your own observation,” said she, “when you told him
that my sister loved him, or merely from my information last spring?”

“From the former. I had narrowly observed her, during the two visits which
I had lately made her here; and I was convinced of her affection.”

“And your assurance of it, I suppose, carried immediate conviction to him.”

“It did. Bingley is most unaffectedly modest. His diffidence had prevented
his depending on his own judgment in so anxious a case, but his reliance on
mine made everything easy. *I was obliged to confess one thing, which for a
time, and not unjustly, offended him. I could not allow myself to conceal
that your sister had been in town three months last winter, that I had
known it, and purposely kept it from him. He was angry.* But his anger, I
am persuaded, lasted no longer than he remained in any doubt of your
sister’s sentiments. He has heartily forgiven me now.”

Elizabeth longed to observe that Mr. Bingley had been a most delightful
friend; so easily guided that his worth was invaluable; but she checked
herself. She remembered that he had yet to learn to be laughed at, and it
was rather too early to begin. In anticipating the happiness of Bingley,
which of course was to be inferior only to his own, he continued the
conversation till they reached the house. In the hall they parted.

Though BIngley had money from his father, he and his sisters really didn't
know society the way Darcy would . Darcy's family had moved in fairly
high circles of society. His father was wealthy and married to the
daughter of an earl, so his in-laws were all aristocrats. Bingley is a
modest ,good hearted man but probably not a brilliant or forceful one.
He was looking to Darcy to help him move in society of the upper gentry.
It wasn't always easy even for people of the day to figure out the
social hierarchy.
Nancy

Arnie: Nope, I don’t buy that one at all. You seem to accept 顿补谤肠测’蝉 view of what is proper and what is not . . .


Actually, my point was that Bingley accepts 顿补谤肠测’蝉 view. There is a lot made of 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 dependence on 顿补谤肠测’蝉 persuasion (or a “friend’s” persuasion) in an early pivotal scene in the novel, when Elizabeth stays at Netherfield.


Dorothy

Never sure. I'll find out that morning.

Ellen

This isn’t a variation, it’s an alternative explanation for Elizabeth’s behavior that is plausible and supported by a variety of passages in the novel text.

You’re claiming as the only explanation the explanation that Elizabeth gives to herself. Austens narrative voice is fundamentally ambiguous, and one plausible way of reading it is reading it as often being Elizabeth’s subjective take on what happens, and Elizabeth often lacks self awareness, a lot like Emma.

But putting that aside, I am quite surprised that you believe most readers blame Bingley for listening to Darcy rather than blame Darcy for lying to Bingley about Jane. That’s so not how I read it. Darcy abused Bingleys trust.

Arnie

Arnie, there appears to be a strong market for Austen variation novels. I
have long suggested that you make your subtext theories into novels and
publish them. Write the novel as you think it should have been done. No one
else that I know of has judged Elizabeth as being jealous of Jane. She was
furious with Darcy because he hurt her sister. For most of us, the fact
that Bingley was willing to give up Jane and leave because Darcy said to do
so meant that he wasn't really in love with her to be so easily influenced
to leave.
Write the story with a jealous Elizabeth or one who is more proactive.
Nancy

On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 8:35?PM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

,
A
Elizabeth's inaction was harmful by the good things it prevented from
happening.

But, again, she was jealous of Jane, and then acted selfishly, and everyone
in the family paid the price.

ARNIE

Again, I have NOT suggested that Jane would or should ask her father to
intervene on her behalf. It is Elizabeth who has the unique knowledge that
such an intervention by Mr. Bennet would have a pretty good chance of
succeeding, which could have meant that Jane might not have had to wait
until Chapter 52 (according to your chronology, Ellen, that would be
October 4) for the bliss that she feels because of what Bingley told Jane
about not knowing she had been in town, but instead might have experienced
it by, say, Chapter 40 (that would be the middle of May), if Elizabeth had
made the request to her father at her first opportunity, and if he had
acted as promptly on it as he did when word arrived that Lydia had eloped
with Wickham.

That would mean that nearly 5 MONTHS of sadness and grieving by Jane for
the inexplicable end of her connection to Bingley would have been averted!

And had Darcy not decided to clean up the mess he had created when he did,
Jane's sadness might have been permanent.

So I'm sorry, but starched notions of propriety and decorum are no reason
at all, when weighed in the scales of justice and morality against a
fighting chance for a very happy outcome for Jane in the short term.

And, last point --Jane getting engaged to Bingley in mid-May might well
have opened all sorts of great possibilities for the other Bennet sisters -
and might have, e.g., averted Lydia's and kitty's trip to Brighton, by
providing an alternative of, say, a chaperoned trip to London under the
supervision of Jane and Bingley.

Elizabeth's inaction was harmful by the good things it prevented from
happening.

But, again, she was jealous of Jane, and then acted selfishly, and everyone
in the family paid the price.

ARNIE

On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 4:34?PM Ellen Moody via groups.io <ellen.moody=
[email protected]> wrote:

I agree with most that the last thing a respectable young woman would
do wud be to ask a parent secretly to write. Parents don't act in
secret that way. They are authority figures for real. Ellen

On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 4:29?PM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

*NANCY*: “How mortifying for a daughter, especially one like Jane, to

have

her father tell Bingley that she was in love with him. The father could

ask

his intentions and suggest that he owed his daughter more than a quick
disappearance from her life. How is it greater morality to humiliate the
诲补耻驳丑迟别谤?”



I emphasized in my post that Jane would *never* know her father had
approached Bingley, based on the following:



If Bingley didn’t respond positively, Mr. Bennet already would have

written

that he would never see him again, and Mr. Bennet would never tell anyone
except Elizabeth about the outcome of his mission, and Elizabeth would
never tell Jane.



If Bingley did respond positively, neither he nor Mr. Bennet would ever
tell Jane about Mr. Bennet’s mission, instead Bingley would just come

back

in Chapter 52 and renew his advances to Jane, and say exactly what he

said

to Jane in the novel, as reported to Elizabeth by Jane:



*“He has made me so happy,” said she, one evening, “by telling me that he
was totally ignorant of my being in town last spring! I had not believed

it

辫辞蝉蝉颈产濒别.”*

“I suspected as much,” replied Elizabeth. “*But how did he account for

颈迟?”*

*“It must have been his sisters’ doing. *They were certainly no friends

to

his acquaintance with me, which I cannot wonder at, since he might have
chosen so much more advantageously in many respects. But when they see,

as

I trust they will, that their brother is happy with me, they will learn

to

be contented, and we shall be on good terms again: though we can never be
what we once were to each other.”

“That is the most unforgiving speech,” said Elizabeth, “that I ever heard
you utter. Good girl! It would vex me, indeed, to see you again the dupe

of

Miss 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 pretended regard.”

*“Would you believe it, Lizzy, that when he went to town last November he
really loved me, and nothing but a persuasion of my being indifferent

would

have prevented his coming down again?”*

*“He made a little mistake, to be sure; but it is to the credit of his
尘辞诲别蝉迟测.”*

This naturally introduced a panegyric from Jane on his diffidence, and

the

little value he put on his own good qualities.

*Elizabeth was pleased to find that he had not betrayed the interference

of

his friend; for, though Jane had the most generous and forgiving heart in
the world, she knew it was a circumstance which must prejudice her

against

丑颈尘.”*



So, there is no scenario in which Jane is either humiliated or mortified,
right?



*DOROTHY: “*Arnie, I agree with you Mr Bennet is too indolent a father to
bother to write a letter on Jane’s behalf.”



But…he does secretly go over to Netherfield to say hi to Bingley – that’s
precedent Elizabeth knows about for him sometimes pretending to be

indolent.

*DOROTHY*: “But a more significant reason he wouldn’t take the step (or
rather, that Elizabeth would not urge him to) is that, first, though
Bingley was very much in love with Jane, and was convinced himself she
loved him in return, **he was persuaded by Darcy to believe she did not.

He

trusted Darcy's judgement over his own.** Mr Darcy warned him of the
impropriety of the match, but also managed to convince him, probably
believed himself (though admits he may have been biased by his own

wishes)

that Jane simply does not return 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 affections. Elizabeth more

than

anyone knows of their friendship and 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 trust in 顿补谤肠测’蝉

箩耻诲驳别尘别苍迟.”

What Elizabeth knows from 顿补谤肠测’蝉 letter is this:



“There is but one part of my conduct in the whole affair on which I do

not

reflect with satisfaction; it is, that I condescended to adopt the

measures

of art so far as to conceal from him your sister's being in town. I knew

it

myself, as it was known to Miss Bingley; ** *but her brother is even yet
ignorant of it.* ** That they might have met without ill consequence is
perhaps probable; but ***his regard did not appear to me enough
extinguished for him to see her without some danger.** *Perhaps this
concealment, this disguise was beneath me; it is done, however, and it

was

done for the best. On this subject I have nothing more to say, no other
apology to offer. If I have wounded your sister's feelings, it was
unknowingly done; and though the motives which governed me may to you

very

naturally appear insufficient, I have not yet learnt to condemn them.”



Elizabeth would have to be a very dull elf indeed not to infer from all

of

that, that Bingley has stayed away from Jane for a combination of two
reasons: his trust in Darcy, and his unawareness of Jane’s trip to

London.

Darcy himself concedes that if they had met, sparks might have flown

again

between them.

Elizabeth now has the power to wipe that second reason away from

叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉

mind, and yet, she fails to act, and instead rationalizes potential extra
pain for Jane, even though, as I stated to Nancy, above, that risk could

be

completely eliminated, and a secret mission by Mr. Bennet could still

have

a shot at success.



*DOROTHY*: “The second reason Mr Bennet would never take such a step
(other than the one of custom Nancy suggests) is that he is certainly

not a

disinterested party – of *course* he would love to have his daughter

marry

a wealthy young scion! His motives would be suspect, and again, Mr

顿补谤肠测’蝉

judgement of the family’s impropriety would only be confirmed.”



Nope, I don’t buy that one at all. You seem to accept 顿补谤肠测’蝉 view of

what

is proper and what is not, I do not, HE is certainly not a “disinterested
party” in all of this, he is the one who drove a wedge between Bingley

and

Jane, and doesn’t feel an ounce of remorse about it when he writes that
letter.



Mr. Bennet is nothing if not diplomatic, when he wants to be. Your

comment

has been helpful, because now I would add the following to Mr. Bennet’s
hypothetical letter to Bingley:

“Before I close, let me not neglect, Mr. Bingley, to address the

proverbial

elephant in the room, to wit: you are a wealthy young man, which you

surely

are aware has been common knowledge in Meryton since your arrival here

last

Fall.

It would be entirely natural for you to suspect that my sending you this
letter is motivated by a desire on my part to have my daughter married

to a

wealthy young scion such as yourself, who also is a very amiable fellow

to

boot. If I were your father, I would certainly warn you against
fortune-hunters.

All I can say in response is first, I have been aware of all that since
your stay in Meryton, a period of several months, and yet I have never

been

tempted previously to write to you. It is only because of this very fresh
intelligence (which I am not at liberty to tell you how it came to my
notice) that I have realized that there is a real chance that your
courtship of Jane might resume if you knew the truth.

You are an intelligent man, you can judge the probabilities of my
truthfulness in this, but if it would be of help, I would refer you to my
daughter, Elizabeth, who also is privy to that same intelligence, and who
will vouch for my truthfulness.

And one last point which I believe is unnecessary but better safe than
sorry. Regardless of whether you respond positively or negatively to my
request, I am sure you understand that it would be for the best if you
never reveal it to anyone else, but most of all to Jane herself.”



ARNIE