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Re: New UK Entry Level Licence proposed #Licensing

Guy G4DWV 4X1LT
 

For more "bums on seats", just adopt the Norwegian system. Their exam is dead easy and short. They have one level of licence and get 1KW on most bands..

In a technical hobby, some intelligence is needed. There is no point giving licences away just because somebody lacks the brain-power to pass at a proper level. Personally, I like yacking on the radio and I do not care if the amateur is in the next street or several thousand miles away.

OFCOM is not fit to administer amateur licences IMHO. The model used by the DVLA in making money could be applied to vanity calls in the UK. OFCOM will not consider the idea at all, which seems to work well in many different countries.

73 de Guy G4DWV 4X1LT
Re: ofcom annual report says ofcom is ?232 million pounds in debt

 

They are not in debt as the industry¡¯s they regulate pay for them. The money was a result of a court case and all it means is that the government needs to pay the mobile companies back some of the money they have already collected from them over the last couple of years. The mobile companies pay over ?200m per year just to access the two bands (900/1800) they were given in the 80s and 90s.

If Ofcom did ever decide to reintroduce an annual fee I doubt it would be as low as ?30. My fear is that if they did bring it back it would be inline with Most of their other licences which are a minimum of ?75.

Pete?

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 08:31, peter davies via Groups.Io <m6pdj=[email protected]> wrote:
If ofcom is in debt then why don¡¯t they go back and introduce a 12 monthly fee for licenses say thirty pound a year for everyone across the board then we might see them out and about a bit more to catch them what play up on the bands?


On Oct 23, 2019, at 20:04, Anonymous (hoardagency@...) <hoardagency@...> wrote:

?

As Trevor said the sum is an amount of money Ofcom collected from the MNOs for the government over a number of years but due to a legal challenge they have to give some of the money back. This is will be paid back by the government. Ofcom gets its money from licence fees and tariffs on the company¡¯s it regulates.


From what I understand Ofcom has a seat on the exam board but only are there to make sure the HARAC standard is met but the rest is up to the RSGB. I feel they are wanting less and less to do with amateur radio e.g. they no longer send anyone to hamfest. Given this if the RSGB wanted to do away with the practical my guess is that Ofcom would not be bothered. However, removing some of the practical assessments from foundation would significantly remove the power of the clubs.


Also I recall some talk of a report being sent around that proposed a series of changes to licensing that was similar to this proposal. Does anyone know what happened to it?

Pete
Re: ofcom annual report says ofcom is ?232 million pounds in debt

 

Before 2006 the annual licence fee never went to Ofcom anyway. Most of it was just burnt up in the paperwork/bureaucratic costs of issuing annual licences and the rest went straight to HM Treasury, Ofcom didn't retain any of it.

73 Trevor M5AKA

On Thursday, 24 October 2019, 09:48:06 BST, Paul via Groups.Io <m0ppd@...> wrote:


When you add the administration costs I don¡¯t think charging for amateur and marine licences will make any difference to their bottom line.?

Re: ofcom annual report says ofcom is ?232 million pounds in debt

 

When you add the administration costs I don¡¯t think charging for amateur and marine licences will make any difference to their bottom line.?
Re: ofcom annual report says ofcom is ?232 million pounds in debt

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

If ofcom is in debt then why don¡¯t they go back and introduce a 12 monthly fee for licenses say thirty pound a year for everyone across the board then we might see them out and about a bit more to catch them what play up on the bands?


On Oct 23, 2019, at 20:04, Anonymous (hoardagency@...) <hoardagency@...> wrote:

?

As Trevor said the sum is an amount of money Ofcom collected from the MNOs for the government over a number of years but due to a legal challenge they have to give some of the money back. This is will be paid back by the government. Ofcom gets its money from licence fees and tariffs on the company¡¯s it regulates.


From what I understand Ofcom has a seat on the exam board but only are there to make sure the HARAC standard is met but the rest is up to the RSGB. I feel they are wanting less and less to do with amateur radio e.g. they no longer send anyone to hamfest. Given this if the RSGB wanted to do away with the practical my guess is that Ofcom would not be bothered. However, removing some of the practical assessments from foundation would significantly remove the power of the clubs.


Also I recall some talk of a report being sent around that proposed a series of changes to licensing that was similar to this proposal. Does anyone know what happened to it?

Pete
Re: ofcom annual report says ofcom is ?232 million pounds in debt

 

As Trevor said the sum is an amount of money Ofcom collected from the MNOs for the government over a number of years but due to a legal challenge they have to give some of the money back. This is will be paid back by the government. Ofcom gets its money from licence fees and tariffs on the company¡¯s it regulates.


From what I understand Ofcom has a seat on the exam board but only are there to make sure the HARAC standard is met but the rest is up to the RSGB. I feel they are wanting less and less to do with amateur radio e.g. they no longer send anyone to hamfest. Given this if the RSGB wanted to do away with the practical my guess is that Ofcom would not be bothered. However, removing some of the practical assessments from foundation would significantly remove the power of the clubs.


Also I recall some talk of a report being sent around that proposed a series of changes to licensing that was similar to this proposal. Does anyone know what happened to it?

Pete
Re: ofcom annual report says ofcom is ?232 million pounds in debt

 

Good to hear from you Ian,

I don't think we need to be unduly concerned about Ofcom's finances. The sum you mention resulted from a provision made concerning a legal judgement on 900/1800 MHz licence fees. DCMS and HM Treasury have agreed to pay the required funding, so Ofcom is not short of cash.

You mention the situation in Australia regarding exams. For those not aware, the regulator ACMA put the exams out to tender, the national society WIA put in a bid to continue running the exams but the work went to the Australian Maritime College (AMC).

The result was a dramatic increase in exam fees, for young people the Foundation fee rose from $40 to $115.

Australia had copied the UK's Foundation licence and the move to AMC highlighted a major drawback of Practical Assessments - they are very expensive to administer.

Hopefully we will not see a similar situation in UK but it might be wise for us to introduce an alternative route into the hobby that is not dependent on Practical Assessments.

73 Trevor M5AKA


On Wednesday, 23 October 2019, 17:40:24 BST, G3ZHI ian <g3zhi@...> wrote:


given the rather large debt ofcom has run up
i am not sure they would be in a position to bring in
a new licence at this time
i support any initiatives that brings more people into the hobby
the recent changes to the foundation exam making it harder
has seen only 19 candidates passing it in september
i am not sure if reducing the numbers was the objective
but if it was it has worked well
acma the vk ofcom has given the radio amateur exam to a private exam company
taking if away from the wia the vk? rsgb

could that happen here



73 ian g3zhi
Re: ofcom annual report says ofcom is ?232 million pounds in debt

 

It already has.


It was called City & Guilds!




Bob, G8IYK

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019, 17:40:24 BST, G3ZHI ian <g3zhi@...> wrote:


given the rather large debt ofcom has run up
i am not sure they would be in a position to bring in
a new licence at this time
i support any initiatives that brings more people into the hobby
the recent changes to the foundation exam making it harder
has seen only 19 candidates passing it in september
i am not sure if reducing the numbers was the objective
but if it was it has worked well
acma the vk ofcom has given the radio amateur exam to a private exam company
taking if away from the wia the vk? rsgb

could that happen here



73 ian g3zhi
ofcom annual report says ofcom is ?232 million pounds in debt

 

given the rather large debt ofcom has run up
i am not sure they would be in a position to bring in
a new licence at this time
i support any initiatives that brings more people into the hobby
the recent changes to the foundation exam making it harder
has seen only 19 candidates passing it in september
i am not sure if reducing the numbers was the objective
but if it was it has worked well
acma the vk ofcom has given the radio amateur exam to a private exam company
taking if away from the wia the vk? rsgb

could that happen here



73 ian g3zhi
Re: Board Members Leaving

 

On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 08:01 AM, Andy TALBOT wrote:
Is it the stress of the job ?
Hardly...............................
I would suggest that many?on the RSGB board are petrified and highly resistant to change. As a result it is hardly a harmonious monthly get together.
Thinking about the RSGB board in terms of the board of governors of a business is completely wrong. Each has a role in coordination of the various bits of the RSGB, committees etc, so a perhaps a management team if it actually worked!
The result of the existing RSGB board membership and the doling out management roles is complete stagnation and resulting frustrations.
Worse still, at the convention there were a couple of board members, including Simone, who were attempting to play political moves in order to become the next RSGB president........

Sadly, many on the current board do not understand the concepts 'strategy' or 'governance' which is what a board of directors should be all about.
Take the RSGB 20200 strategy:


The last bullet reads: "Establish active links with the , develop a promotional talk with demonstration targeted for delivery in and for the Regional Team to deliver it in at least one shed in each region before the end of 2019."
I am somebody that works hard within the RSGB structure dealing with the protection and development of the VHF amateur bands. Calling this sort of stuff strategy deserves ridicule and perhaps a cull of those responsible.

John G4SWX

PS The RSGB VLT is even worse:

Board Members Leaving

Andy TALBOT
 

Just been notified Simone?Wilson, M0BOX has left the RSGB board.? ?Another member left a few months ago.

Is it the stress of the job ?

Andy? G4JNT
Re: New UK Entry Level Licence proposed #Licensing

 

To start off, I was initially against a new entry level licence, but
on learning about it's significant advantages, I'm now fully
supporting one, after it's 'rules' have been properly thought out.
Such as low power 2m & 70cm operation, except when taking part in a
properly organised emergency (exercise or real) RAYNET activity run by
a full licence holder.

On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 at 22:47, <pointyhead@...> wrote:

Well here's the thing, the FL grants far too much for far too little. It was ill thought out and poorly implemented. It is ridiculous in that it allows .... amateur bands for life with no restricitions (and don't give me the 10w nonsense!) .... Why would anyone want to upgrade?
Yes it was was ill thought, typical RSGB, but it bought in more money
to the RSGB.

Mention is made of RAYNET below, I know of at least one RAYNET group,
or should I say one El-cheapo PMR group, that has over 10w ham radios
in control, operated by un-supervised FL holders.

The VHF manager is complaining about lack of activity on VHF/UHF, perhaps he needs reminding that it was the granting of HF privileges to class b's that emptied the vhf/uhf bands overnight.
Yet another example of the RSGB causing reduction in VHF/UHF activity.
I joined the RSGB when I passed the RAE and got a Class B licence,
with no HF access. I was very happy using 2m & 70cm, both very active
bands. When the RSGB decided to kill-off 2m packet radio, I wrote a
letter to the manager about this, adding that I would not renew,
unless a reversal was made. Needless to say, I never received a
letter in reply, so did not renew.

If he was at all serious about putting activity back on those bands he'd be lobbying to remove HF privileges from foundation licensees
I remember the days when I was on 2m or 70cm everyday driving to work
and home again in the evening, well over two hours of activity every
day. These simplex QSOs were not just one-to-one, but 3 or 4 of us at
a time. Here is not the place to discuss measures to improve 2m &
70cm activity.

I feel sorry for the genuine newcomer who has to negotiate a three ring circus to get a full licence. Better by far was the system we had - one RAE and a simple morse exam, fully licenced done and dusted.
I was lucky in that I had trained as an electronics engineer, so did
not have to attend a college (now it's called a university) for many
evenings once a week to study for the RAE. I just applied to the
college to take the exam. Later with the assistance of Steve,G3USE,
passed my morse test at a coastal station and got my Class A (Full)
licence. As the Examination Secretary of my local club, I know how
much effort is now required and the time it takes, to get a full
licence. But look at the amount of money coming into the RSGB!

No offence but if the brown stuff ever does hit the fan in a big way in the UK .... but I know who makes up Raynet locally
It is very sad to see how RAYNET has deteriorated over the years. I
served in RAYNET for over 45 years before ending my membership. I
became one of RAYNET's first County Controllers, when the RSGB
introduced the higher level Area and County Controllers. As a Group
Controller, I could not have any Assistant or Deputy Controllers.
Being promoted, I immediately arranged to have three new Group
Controllers!

In those days, we trained ourselves in providing emergency
communications, not just PMR operators for any hobby limited company.
Re: New UK Entry Level Licence proposed #Licensing

 

Caz,

You raise a good point about having a simplified licensing system, with perhaps just two classes, these days it would be an Entry Level and a Full. That is certainly a possible approach. We did briefly have something like that in 2002/3 when you could take the far more straight forward 2002 Foundation with 20 question exam and then take the City & Guilds RAE to get straight to Full, many amateurs did exactly that.

At the moment there is the recent proposal for a new Entry Level Licence and also the RSGB is working towards a new single multiple choice exam which will be a direct route to a Full licence much like the old C&G RAE.

The advantage both of these have is the Exam can be done Online direct from the candidate's home, no club needs to be involved. This will be invaluable for people living in much of the country where there is no local training available.

Trevor M5AKA




_._,_._,_
Re: New UK Entry Level Licence proposed #Licensing

 

I fail to see what IQ has to do with the hobby per se as stated by pointyhead@. Anyone can be trained to use a radio and whilst the hobby has a technical aspect why would we seek to make it difficult to get on the bands rather than to encourage involvement and growth of new and enthusiastic hams? It is elitism that has been killing the hobby for years and if nothing changes it will be the death of the hobby. So mucg around the hobby has changed rapidly. The rise of the internet and it's associated methods of communication surely means that anyone seeking out the hobby must be serious otherwise why would they trouble? It is also a bit rich to assume that all CBers have a low IQ or are not just a technically capable as a ham. My route to amatuer radio was through CB before it was legel in the UK. When I passed my RAE I modified my radio for 10mtr and bought a second hand 2mtr rig. With help and encouragment I took my interests further but it was years before I could afford anything other tha to operate on 2mtr or 10mtr. Lack of funds meant building more but if i had been told when I started out that as a CBer I was not ham material the hobby would have even fewer hams by now. Seeing I could be a ham, others have followed. So could we drop the them and us, drop the elitism and drop the I'm better becuse I passed a test 50 years ago attitude? I wonder how many older hams could even pass the relevent tests these days. Just a thought. As for the licence proposal, I prefered when it was simpy A or B and I am not a fan of too many classes of licence but on balance, surely it has to be about the greater good of the hobby long term and not about individual views that long for the golden years.?
Re: New UK Entry Level Licence proposed #Licensing

 

Well a partial answer is that the proposal is to restrict the bands for the new licence, so that anyone keen to have as much scope on, say, HF as CBers have will have to progress.

But more importantly I really don¡¯t see that it matters. It is not as though the bands are so crowded that we cannot accommodate more amateurs. If some people want to carry on indefinitely with a limited licence like the FL, then it does not stop others progressing and doing interesting things. Perhaps we tend to think people *should* progress because that is what we want to do, but really it does no harm if people don¡¯t.

Misbehaviour on the bands is another thing, and it would be good if it were policed. But, sadly, people with a full licence can and do abuse the bands, so it is not directly related to lack of progression.

Roger

On 19 Oct 2019, at 23:53, pointyhead@... wrote:

Perhaps you've missed the obvious but advancing from FL to Full just isn't happening. Why would anyone want to advance when there is no incentive to advance? In what way do you believe that adding another unwanted licence class will allow advancement to other classes of licence?

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19 Oct 2019, 11:49 by g4tbd@...:

I think reality has to be faced here, its not like it was when you had to build your own equipment as a lot of us have done.
With anyone being able to get a Baofeng with the suggested power level this would take a burden off repeater keepers.
Surely this is all we are contemplating.
If so it would make repeater keepers happy.
A online regulations test and an appropriate licence.
This would still allow advancement to other classes of licence.
If you are going to argue it could lead to messing about you are too late we have seen it all before.

On Friday, October 18, 2019, 08:39:00 PM GMT+1, Roger Hayter GW8BFO <orders@...> wrote:


I would generally support the proposal. I believe the important part of the new licence will be the availability, perhaps online, without having to attend or join a club, mix with other amateurs, do a series of practicals, morse appreciations, and other largely social interactions. I accept that some may join on whim and drift away, but the present system makes entry to amateur radio impossible to those who are not obsessively keen on socialising. It should not be a test of clubbability. I am less concerned about the precise standard (online administration lends itself to iterative sell-education) or the precise privileges. Easy entry for normal, independent-minded people would be the biggest gain. I have nothing against clubs, I just don't want to attend one.





--

Roger Hayter
--
Roger Hayter, GW8BFO
Re: New UK Entry Level Licence proposed #Licensing

 

You might find this story of a Foundation licence holder potentially saving a life when the brown stiff hit the fan, of interest:



Pete M0PSX (formally M6PSI)
Re: New UK Entry Level Licence proposed #Licensing

[email protected]
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Perhaps you've missed the obvious but advancing from FL to Full just isn't happening. Why would anyone want to advance when there is no incentive to advance? In what way do you believe that adding another unwanted licence class will allow advancement to other classes of licence?

--
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19 Oct 2019, 11:49 by g4tbd@...:


I think reality has to be faced here, its not like it was when you had to build your own equipment as a lot of us have done.
With anyone being able to get a Baofeng with the suggested power level this would take a burden off repeater keepers.
Surely this is all we are contemplating.
If so it would make repeater keepers happy.
A online regulations test and an appropriate licence.
This would still allow advancement to other classes of licence.
If you are going to argue it could lead to messing about you are too late we have seen it all before.

On Friday, October 18, 2019, 08:39:00 PM GMT+1, Roger Hayter GW8BFO <orders@...> wrote:


I would generally support the proposal.? I believe the important part of the new licence will be the availability, perhaps online, without having to attend or join a club, mix with other amateurs, do a series of practicals, morse appreciations, and other largely social interactions.? I accept that some may join on whim and drift away, but the present system makes entry to amateur radio impossible to those who are not obsessively keen on socialising.? It should not be a test of clubbability.? I am less concerned about the precise standard (online administration lends itself to iterative sell-education) or the precise privileges.? Easy entry for normal, independent-minded people would be the biggest gain.? I have nothing against clubs, I just don't want to attend one.
Re: New UK Entry Level Licence proposed #Licensing

[email protected]
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Well here's the thing, the FL grants far too much for far too little. It was ill thought out and poorly implemented. It is ridiculous in that it allows complete prats on to the one time amateur bands for life with no restricitions (and don't give me the 10w nonsense!)? for proving they have the iq of a child.? Why would anyone want to upgrade? Yet things still haven't been dumbed down enough for some well meaning fools. The VHF manager is complaining about lack of activity on VHF/UHF, perhaps he needs reminding that it was the granting of HF privileges to class b's that emptied the vhf/uhf bands overnight. If he was at all serious about putting activity back on those bands he'd be lobbying to remove HF privileges from? foundation licensees and grant them access to VHF/HF only, with further privileges being granted as one progresses up the ladder, you know, actually bring a bit of incentive into things and not arguing for a further dumb down. How is it even possible to down things down any lower? Children of 5 and 6 years of age have passed the foundation exam! Frankly if someone can't pass a foundation exam pitched at this low a level amateur radio is not for them, this IS a technical hobby NOT multiband CB. We don't need another licence, in fact we need less. I feel sorry for the genuine newcomer who has to negotiate a three ring circus to get a full licence. Better by far was the system we had - one RAE and a simple morse exam, fully licenced done and dusted. However not being content with making newcomers pay through the nose 3 times to get where I got to with one exam the idiots now want newcomers to negotiate 4 hurdles!

No offence but if the brown stuff ever does hit the fan in a big way in the UK, what use would a semi literate Raynet? foundation licensee be? (this isn't a dig at you, none of this is but many of them are and I hope it doesn't come across like that, but I know who makes up Raynet locally) How would he or she even draw up a casualty list or relay a list of survivors?

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17 Oct 2019, 22:33 by m6pdj@...:

Well if we are happy being M3s M6 s what¡¯s your problem with that as long as we don¡¯t abuse our powers and interfere with other amateurs ?there¡¯s nothing wrong with being an M3 M6 a lot of us do Raynet do you?



On Oct 17, 2019, at 22:24, pointyhead@... wrote:
?The foundation licence is a beginner licence and it should have been time limited from it's inception. It was sold to an unwilling amateur population as a means to an end, unfortunately for many because there is no time limit it has become an end in itself. It is ridiculous the number of career M3's on the bands, perhaps the only thing more ridiculous is being asked to believe they're using 10w..
Re: New UK Entry Level Licence proposed #Licensing

 

I think reality has to be faced here, its not like it was when you had to build your own equipment as a lot of us have done.
With anyone being able to get a Baofeng with the suggested power level this would take a burden off repeater keepers.
Surely this is all we are contemplating.
If so it would make repeater keepers happy.
A online regulations test and an appropriate licence.
This would still allow advancement to other classes of licence.
If you are going to argue it could lead to messing about you are too late we have seen it all before.

On Friday, October 18, 2019, 08:39:00 PM GMT+1, Roger Hayter GW8BFO <orders@...> wrote:


I would generally support the proposal.? I believe the important part of the new licence will be the availability, perhaps online, without having to attend or join a club, mix with other amateurs, do a series of practicals, morse appreciations, and other largely social interactions.? I accept that some may join on whim and drift away, but the present system makes entry to amateur radio impossible to those who are not obsessively keen on socialising.? It should not be a test of clubbability.? I am less concerned about the precise standard (online administration lends itself to iterative sell-education) or the precise privileges.? Easy entry for normal, independent-minded people would be the biggest gain.? I have nothing against clubs, I just don't want to attend one.
Re: New UK Entry Level Licence proposed #Licensing

 

I would generally support the proposal. I believe the important part of the new licence will be the availability, perhaps online, without having to attend or join a club, mix with other amateurs, do a series of practicals, morse appreciations, and other largely social interactions. I accept that some may join on whim and drift away, but the present system makes entry to amateur radio impossible to those who are not obsessively keen on socialising. It should not be a test of clubbability. I am less concerned about the precise standard (online administration lends itself to iterative sell-education) or the precise privileges. Easy entry for normal, independent-minded people would be the biggest gain. I have nothing against clubs, I just don't want to attend one.
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