Thanks for the comments Andy. Forming this group came of the back of "Red Rag" that there's no real place to discuss non-technical stuff. I run three other Groups.io groups, and thought I'd see if there was a need for a moderated chat group broadly like Workshop (and others)

"Heavy moderation" may have been a poor choice of words (apologies if so), but my observation was that closing threads or discussion of moderation, kicked off an avalanche each time, and people clearly wanted to talk, but had no outlet.

Hopefully we can signpost each other's forum to anyone who's be better served in the other group.

Best regards,

Pete M0PSX

As owner of the RSGB-Workshop Group, can I first of all thank you for starting a forum that looks like it will remove the heated non-technical posts there.? ?These were causing several of our members to complain and a few to leave.? It is a technical forum and the majority of the members want just that

Moderation is not 'heavy-handed' there.? Posts are unmoderated and only when a thread become full of off-topic and repeated comments will I lock it.? ?Which is exactly what happened with the "Red Rag"? and "LSB/USB" threads.? ?The latter started out technical but blew out of all proportion.? ?

As for RSGB-Technical - the moderation of every post there delays responses and throws a lot of work onto the only real moderator doing most of it, G3PLX.? ?Yet he still approves of the all-moderated status and seems quite happy with the workload.

Andy? ?G4JNT

Gareth,

Since when did the opinion (which you're entitled to hold) and pontification of a few who regard themselves as "elite" become the "truth" of Amateur Radio?

You may be entitled to your opinion but as you're nothing to do with the RSGB, and therefore nothing to do with the examination or licencing process, I would assert that you have made yourself irrelevant to the discussion.

Either
a: propose your own examination/licence process and infrastructure to OFCOM
b: join the RSGB and actually work to make things better (which doesn't mean you have to agree, just don't be surprised when you're not accepted to be "correct" in your opinion)
c: Go somewhere else

Regards

John

In response to the points raised about this group in the the off-topic comment posted on RSGB-Workshop this morning:

> It seems that in the groups.io HamChat my views about the technical traditions of amateur radio, expressed sincerely and without any personal rancour or similar unpleasantness are not welcome and I have been placed on moderation.

Three members flagged a spam message sent to the group yesterday evening (an advert for what3words). The entire group was set to 'moderated' so that I could intercept any further potential spam overnight, so as not to clutter people's inboxes.

All posted messages this morning were delayed, so that I could check for spam. Gareth's message arrived at 9:12 and approved 12 minutes later at 9:24 (5 minutes before his posting on RSGB-Workshop).

Apologies to anyone who felt concerned as a result of their message being held back for a few minutes.

> That group exists solely for the purpose of favourably discussing the ridiculous proposal for a licence class even lower than the Foundation and no dissent is to be permitted.

Dissent is permitted. Nothing was censored. Check the timestamps and you will see that Gareth's message appeared publicly 5 minutes before he claimed that it hadn't!

400+ people, across 2 groups, will have received unnecessary emails about something that was irrelevent and wrong (by 5 minutes), when this could have been resoilved by a simple private email to the moderator.

Not everything is a conspiracy. If anyone has a question to ask regarding the moderation policy, feel free to contact me direct, or in this group, rather than hoping I'll spot it in a different group.

> The CBer-masquerading-as-a radio-amateur is in control.

A copy of my valid UK Full licence (obtained under the more stringent licensing scheme is available for inspection as needed.

Have a good Friday everyone!

Pete M0PSX

Well said. And thanks for the introducing me to Heyphone, that's fascinating. I learn something new everyday about radio!

Gareth (the newbie one ;-)

This appears to be a duplication of views already expressed, adding nothing new to the previous similar post..

Those who wish to discuss this thread are obviously welcome to, but those not interested are able to mute this thread (or any other topic) if they wish.

Pete

Nevertheless, we who have Full licences are an elite because we have
privileges that are not available to the general public, and it
is a characteristic to be jealously guarded. (And those with
the Right Moral Fibre to have taken the 12WPM Morse test in
the decades that it was available to them are the Bees Knees)

Having 'privileges that are not available to the general public' does not make you ‘elite’, however much you would like to think it does.
All you have actually done is taken a test around the level that O level Physics used to be.
That just shows you have skills in one area, whatever that does, it does not make you ‘elite’.

I have plenty of skills well above and beyond O level Physics - people need to get a grip!
All Hams have done is take an exam or two at a pretty basic level of understanding - it’s not rocket science and it’s actually also not that important in the general scheme of life, the universe and everything!

You are also incorrect in your assessment that such ‘privileges' are not available to the public - any one of the general public can train to become a radio ham - hardly ‘elite’ if it is open to anyone willing to train for it!!! ?
And what morals have to do with a 12WPM Morse Test is beyond me - that is a complete non-sequitur - again just your somewhat quirky opinion...

I would remind everyone that the purpose of the licence is 'self-training in radio communication' - that’s a large umbrella - however much you would like to make it smaller, it is large!
I would go a lot further and suggest that it is not restricted by the bands in the schedule at the back of licences either.

Thank God, for example, that people like John Heys G3BDQ played with radio outside the Ham Bands otherwise we might not have the Heyphone which plays such an important role in underground rescues like the one a year or two ago in Thailand when that young football team got trapped…
I, for one, am glad Mr Heys didn’t just stop on 3560kHz working QRP and thinking how ‘elite’ he was and how anyone who doesn't know CW has no moral fibre!! ??????


Chris G7DDN

Nevertheless, we who have Full licences are an elite because we have
privileges that are not available to the general public, and it
is a characteristic to be jealously guarded. (And those with
the Right Moral Fibre to have taken the 12WPM Morse test in
the decades that it was available to them are the Bees Knees)

By dumbing down ad nauseam the entrance qualifications for
amateur radio to attract hoi polloi that eliteness is eroded and amateur radio
is as surely slowly killed.

Amateur radio is NOT about social chit-chat, there is CB Radio,
PMR446 and GSM radio for that.

Many seem to have swallowed hook, line and sinker the RSGB
mantra but the membership levels of the RSGB are NOT the
same thing as the good of amateur radio.

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Well said John thank you G8KHF from M6PDJ?

I always hear alarm bells when people describe themselves as 'elite' as they are usually the only ones who perceive themselves as such. The desire to maintain perceived eliteness has, throughout history, nearly always led to the demise of those trying to maintain it.?
I would also disagree that Amateur Radio is a technical? pursuit. Whilst the technical aspect is certainly there, it is but one facet of what Is a multi faceted hobby with room for everyone who has an interest in radio communication.
To say that someone is not a suitable candidate for a licence just because they may be interested in actually communicating rather than knowing how their kit works is utterly ridiculous. Perhaps they may well become interested in furthering their knowledge further down the line.?
As for maintaining our rigs, are you serious? What maintenance does a modern rig require other than a quick blast over with Mr Sheen and a polishing cloth?
A basic licence,, perhaps issued when the application is supported by a couple of full licence holders, that allows the use of a handheld on VHF and UHF would allow people who show an interest to dip a toe in the water and, hopefully, become bitten by the bug.

And that's my two penny worth :-)

(I also passed the written RAE but? I cant see what that has to do with the price of eggs)

73 (also genuinely) John G8KHF

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Well if we are happy being M3s M6 s what’s your problem with that as long as we don’t abuse our powers and interfere with other amateurs ?there’s nothing wrong with being an M3 M6 a lot of us do Raynet do you?

The path of progression is straight forward and the foundation licence is pitched at a ridiculously low level as it stands. It has been passed by 5 and 6 year old children, how stupidly easy should we make things? This is amateur radio! It is not citizens band. It is a technical hobby. I would suggest that whatever interest children have in radio communications their needs are more than adequately met by multimode CB and PMR 446.

The Southern Irish model is very similar to what we used to have in the UK!

How many licence classes do we need? GIven that the current foundation exam has been sat and passed by 5 and 6 year old children it don't think it's possible to dum things down any further!

The foundation licence is a beginner licence and it should have been time limited from it's inception. It was sold to an unwilling amateur population as a means to an end, unfortunately for many because there is no time limit it has become an end in itself. It is ridiculous the number of career M3's on the bands, perhaps the only thing more ridiculous is being asked to believe they're using 10w..

Hi,

Interesting discussion. Having read John's proposal over in 'Workshop, I broadly agree with this, however I would also add
- Simplex only, if repeater use required then that's an incentive to upgrade to Foundation.
- Antenna/ERP restriction?
- Limited number of fixed frequencies on 70/144/430MHz (along the lines of the Business Simple Light licence)

The orginal proposal also mentioned "Abuse identified by AROS will result in licence revocation"? - AROS no longer exists as such and as I understand it, a licence can only be revoked by Ofcom so this could be a difficult one to monitor/enforce.?

Perhaps some kind of online survey should be organised to gauge potential interested applicants?

73
Nick G4IRX

Folks,

The group is barely three days old, and I've already had complaints about other members, plus a message calling for moderator involvement. Time for a quick moderator intervention.

I'm not a fan of heavy moderation, don't want to get into banning people, having to mediate between warring factions, or unilaterally deciding that I've had enough of a thread, and locking it. Anyone who's on either RSGBTech or RSGBWorkshop will know that heavy moderation can be pretty unpopular and heavy on the inbox!

I believe that everyone is entitled to their views. and as long as they stay within the accepted convention for online discussion, that's fine. I am conscious that others may not want to, or be interested in, reading messages that are off-topic or outside the hopefully positive scope of this group.

Solutions:

To anyone not interested in a deluge of emails - there are two handy featuires of Groups.io - Switching to a Digest (groups of 12 messages), or a Daily Summary - You can switch to these here: /g/HamChat/editsub

To anyone not interested in a particular thread, then there is an option to "Mute" a thread at the bottom of each email. This is a very effective way of turning off something you're not interested in.

To anyone interested in starting an off-topic thread... please consider whether this is the right group for it. If in doubt, tag your post with a hashtag of #OffTopic, so others can mute it easily if needed.

I'd also suggest that we all try to get into the habit of starting new topics if there is a gear-change mid-thread. Again, this gives the option for people to mute off-topic discussion.

Personally, I tend to agree that the spirit of this group should be to discuss the future of the hobby, not to try to reignite decades-old gripes that no-one in this groups knows about, or can do anything about. There are better corners of the Internet to do that.

So, please can I ask that everyone plays nice, tries to be respectful of others, and uses the tools as necessary if you come across something you'd prefer not to read.

Thanks all,

Pete M0PSX

I cannot comment on the RAE after it became multiple choice. I took the RAE in 1975 when it was an exam in which you had to write out all the answers. It was difficult (I have a copy of the exam I took). I did a whole year’s evening classes and I had the slight advantage of having done the physics A level syllabus.

The RAE then was a high hurdle to get over, and although I did, I am sure it was a deterrent to many who would have otherwise wanted to partake in the hobby. It must have discouraged many SWLs.

Having taken the RAE so long ago, I must be much the same age as John, G4SWX. As a not very technical radio amateur but hooked on VHF I took the Morse test in 1981 so that I could use Morse at high speed for meteor scatter and get on the VHF net on 20 metres to arrange skeds on 144 MHz.

Coming back into the hobby after thirty years plus I was surprised by the new exam structure but can see that it still might be a deterrent to getting a licence, let alone a full one.? As a not very technical radio amateur I think maybe a lower beginners’ level of licence as proposed by John, concentrating on operating skills where standards have slipped, would be a good idea, so I support the idea.

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Chris G7DDN