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Yes, I agree that the aims behind amateur radio are broadly the same as when it started, but pretty much everything else has changed.

> So what you said to me makes no sense?

Your opening statement was that you thought amateur radio will be dead in 50 years. I said that you could play a part in making sure if doesn't, if you were so inclined. Which part made no sense to you?

> Unfortunately none of what you listed appled to my taking of the RAE which happened in May 1970

Some of it applies - notably that today's amateurs have to be assessed on 20 practicals to confirm competancy to operate on multiple bands, use multiple modes, and to construct and test.

I'm not sure when C&G changed to multi-guess, but I'm assuming in the 1980s. Regardless, you presumably acknowledge that, at least for the last 20 or so years of RAE, the standards/requirements were demonstrably lower than today.

Are we now done on this thread?

Pete M0PSX

On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 11:56 AM, Pete M0PSX wrote:

it is the technology that changes and not the essence of amateur radio.

Some examples of the non-technology changes I was referring to, include: The
licensing conditions, "licence for life", 3-tier system, the percentage of
amateurs who construct their own transceivers, the way that exams and training
are conducted, the role of clubs, the way that people study and interact
outside of amateur radio, attitudes to amateur radio from outside our
community, relevance, etc

Administrative sidelines, but not actually amateur radio; amateur radio
itself has not changed, it remains technically savvy people doing
radio communication.

I return your invitation

Asking someone who wants the
hobby not to die, to change their position and speed up its death, makes no
sense.

So what you said to me makes no sense? :-)

a full licence is how harder than back when you got yours

I'm game - let's compare a Full RAE with the 2019 Full:

Unfortunately none of what you listed appled to my taking of the
RAE which happened in May 1970 and we had to answer 6
out of 8 questions with full written replies.

ie, we had to demonstrate our knowledge without being
prompted with the answer hidden amongst a mulitple-cheat
exam question.

> it is the technology that changes and not the essence of amateur radio.

Some examples of the non-technology changes I was referring to, include: The licensing conditions, "licence for life", 3-tier system, the percentage of amateurs who construct their own transceivers, the way that exams and training are conducted, the role of clubs, the way that people study and interact outside of amateur radio, attitudes to amateur radio from outside our community, relevance, etc

> I return your invitation

I was responding to your initial question, about the demise and death of the hobby. I suggested that if you wanted to stop it dying, then there are things that you can do to prevent this from happening. Asking someone who wants the hobby not to die, to change their position and speed up its death, makes no sense.

> a full licence is how harder than back when you got yours

I'm game - let's compare a Full RAE with the 2019 Full:

Questions: 80 under RAE, now 130
Papers: Was 1 under 2003 RAE, now 3
Syllabus sections: Was 8 under RAE, now 10 (recent updates inc SDR, DV, DDS, Fourier, data modes, etc)
Practicals: None under RAE, now 20 mandatory assessments (construction, testing, operating and non-voice modes)
Exam sessions needed: Was 1 under 2003 RAE, now 3 (plus practical sessions)
Exam fee: Was ?29.50 in 2003, now ?97.50 (exc course fees, 3 books & travel)

The RAE examiners reports make interesting reading - some prime examples:

In December 1995, 62% of candidates? couldn't answer a question about station usage, with many candidates thinking that relaying of news, or other stations to increase the range, was allowed
In December 2000, many candidates thought 2W1XUL was the callsign of a club station
In May 2001, 55% of candidates didn't realise that the log could be used to record communications and observations
In December 1996, most candidates didn't know who to notify if they moved house
In May 1998, 41% thought that the amateur radio licence allowed amateurs to tune in to broadcast radio stations.
In May 1999, 35% thought that sending messages for general reception (broadcasting) was allowed
In May 1996, only half of candidates could recognise a Novice callsign (many thought it was 'GE')
In December 1996, many candidates did not know what do if called by a CB user, and most didn't know who to report it to.
In December 1995, 63% of candidates couldn't find the International Disaster bands in the licence booklet
In May 1998, 66% of candidates couldn't correctly explain was a log was for
In December 1996, 42% of candidates didn't know what the band plan was for

Ask any Foundation licence-holder... This is all Foundation-level syllabus stuff!

The list goes on, and that's just the comments relating to licence conditions and operating. If you fancy a laugh, they're easy to find online and are worth a read.

Pete M0PSX

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 10:24 PM, Pete M0PSX wrote:

It already has changed and is very different from what it was 50 years ago,
let alone a hundred.

Au contraire, it is the technology that changes and not the essence of amateur radio.

How many of today's radio amateurs are capable of designing and build their

own multi-band, multi-mode transceiver from scratch? How many could design and
build an SDR transceiver from scratch? And with the availability of cheap
hardware, how many are inclined to do so and/or are currently operating using
a recently built & designed homebrew multiband, multimode transceiver?

It's always been the case that most of we are sheep who follow the designs
of others and construct accordingly, witness the current interest in the QCX
and BITX designs and the K2 availability in kit form.

So yes, it has changed, and the hobby (or pursuit, as you prefer) is
continuing to change.

<PANTOMIME MODE>
OH NO! IT HASN'T !!
</PANTOMIME MODE>

Many view change to be a good thing and embrace it.

As, indeed, have I, and ten years ago resolved a longstanding
doubt of mine that many of the published descriptions of
the mathematics of sampling for DSP were wrong, to the
extent that I can now understand all of DSP from the
lowest levels up.

Others are scared of it and are desperate to cling on to the past.

I don't know anybody in that category. Have you any examples?

Some things haven't changed though - For instance, even though getting a full
licence is how harder than back when you got yours (higher standards?),

Really? Are you sure? I thought that the differences between Hartley, Clapp
and Colpitts oscillators were no longer tested?

some
of today's amateurs are still prepared to put in the work, despite the fact
that a minority of the old guard ignore them or look down on them whilst
they're still progressing through the lower levels.

There are no lower levels of respectability.

There are only SWLs and Full licensees although there are quite a
few CBers-masquerading-as-radio-amateurs.

It's not too late - if you'd like to help to make sure that the hobby (or
pursuit, as you prefer) doesn't die, I'm sure the community would welcome your
support and input.

I return your invitation and request that you make a stance against the
dilution and lowering of technical standards in that the future of amateur
radio may be the same as its past; that of technically savvy individuals
making use of technological equipment for radio communications via
their deep understanding of what makes the rigs tick.

It already has changed and is very different from what it was 50 years ago, let alone a hundred.

How many of today's radio amateurs are capable of designing and build their own multi-band, multi-mode transceiver from scratch? How many could design and build an SDR transceiver from scratch? And with the availability of cheap hardware, how many are inclined to do so and/or are currently operating using a recently built & designed homebrew multiband, multimode transceiver?

So yes, it has changed, and the hobby (or pursuit, as you prefer) is continuing to change. Many view change to be a good thing and embrace it. Others are scared of it and are desperate to cling on to the past.

Some things haven't changed though - For instance, even though getting a full licence is how harder than back when you got yours (higher standards?), some of today's amateurs are still prepared to put in the work, despite the fact that a minority of the old guard ignore them or look down on them whilst they're still progressing through the lower levels.

It's not too late - if you'd like to help to make sure that the hobby (or pursuit, as you prefer) doesn't die, I'm sure the community would welcome your support and input.

Pete M0PSX

It should have already moved on in the last 100 years. Unless the hobby moves with the times and attracts fresh blood it will die due to the very people that are obsessing over protecting it. It's not all about bums on seats but there is some truth in the phrase use it or lose it.?

... for it seems to me that the rush to get bums on seats by lowering the
technical standards for amateur radio licences will mean that the
amateur radio of the past 100 years will be dead and gone in the next 50.

Wow! No wonder the hobby is in decline. I see your point but times have changed. Did you know women can be engineers too these days? It is also interesting to hear your views with regards to CB radio operators as in other parts of Europe CB and Ham radio goes hand in hand. CB operators also fix thier own radios and make thier own antennas and learn about propagation. Some clubs welcome CB operators and Hams, in fact anyone with an interest in radio. I happen to agree re the exam as personally I saw very little wrong with the RAE I took in the 70's, but in a world where few people have the time to build thier own radios (unless they are retired and have access to the full range of test equipment) we do need to cater for the hams that are happy to buy off the shelf. Your post is full of "his" "fellow man" "him" "he" and "the pursuant of gentleman". Really the world has moved on but in ham terms it seems that women are tolerated and not seen as real hams. This is what is wrong with the hobby. I have a great deal of respect for anyone that has the time and the knowledge to build thier own equipment but surely the hobby cannot survive if it is only the reserve of a few retired people. Many hams these days may have cut their teeth on CB radio sets long before they were legal in the UK so I struggle with the continuing them and us attitude in the name of elitism. I have a full licence, I am technically competent but I'd rather buy than make most of the time, apart from my own antennas. I earned my licence but to hear remarks such as "real" ham radio really makes me feel that the hobby has a long way to go. Maybe it is time to reflect on the origin of the term ham. We are "amateurs" no matter what our profession or employment status.?

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 07:46 PM, John G4SWX wrote:

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 11:16 AM, @pete_north wrote:

Having spoken to some people close to this,

Like the RSGB VHF manager?
Who 'might' just happen to be in the know.........................
John G4SWX

Not RSGB, through my day job working in radio comms we deal with a lot of industry and regulators both in the UK, US and Europe.

Gareth,

"easier licence than the CB-like Foundation licence" ?? Deary me, keep up! CB hasn't had a licence requirement for quite some time, 13 years this December. Previous to that the only requirement was ID and ?15 at the post office.

So quite how anything with an exam of any sort could be "CB-Like" is beyond me.

John

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 11:16 AM, @pete_north wrote:

Having spoken to some people close to this,

Like the RSGB VHF manager?
Who 'might' just happen to be in the know.........................
John G4SWX

Having spoken to some people close to this, Ofcom knows that the licence numbers don't reflect the number of actual users so they are pretty worthless. They tried to revoke some licences a few years ago for not validating but looks like they have given up on that. If people had to renew their licence every couple of years and pay a fee the drop in numbers would be half what they are now. The issue with 144 MHz was that it was only one French company that wanted this and no one else wanted the pain of a fight. However, if it does become valuable then the bands will go the same as 13cm band and we'd be kicked out.?

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 08:40 AM, @pete_north wrote:

hence the recent France proposal on 144 MHz

Amateur radio in France is weaker than it is in the UK. Only one third of the number of amateurs for a similar size of population. More importantly far lower activity on VHF and the spectrum regulator notices such things. This is why I see the need for boosting VHF/UHF activity in the UK. Even if all of the "elite" 'HF anoraks in sheds' protest.........................

John G4SWX

On reflection I see that I didn't really give my view on the proposed new licencing idea but rather on the hobby. Do we really need more licencing options? I wonder who among us took to the air as a pirate before becoming licensed and how many were hounded out of the hobby for following their enthusiasm against how many were welcomed and encouraged to learn and take the exam. We are amateurs, so why must we have such a high and mighty opinion of ourselves. Have we lost sight of where the term "ham" originated? Have we forgotten that we are all still learning and that this is a hobby??

It is not the licence that is the issue but how easy it is or not, to get into the hobby. The hobby is more than a licence. So I would not support fiddling with licensing any further unless it was to make it less cumbersome and confusing than it is now with fewer tiers and barriers. Why have we allowed the route to entry to become more clunky and frustrating when we should be simplyfying? When you are a waining club you court new members you don't make it more difficult to join and you really don't take the view that everyone has to be just like you as that way is the way to a dead club.?

CB and PMR are all well and good but it means buying kit you may never use once you obtain a licence and using funds that could have gone towards your first multimode. It's not all just about the digital world either but about the people. I joined a club at one time and stopped attending after two meetings as it was so boring. I was already way ahead technically and that was years ago. The old boys didn't like a young woman coming in who had just built her own kit ZX81 and who had built her first radio transmitter shortly after passing the exam. The club members were mainly old men. Has the hobby changed much in that time? I've love to think so but it still has a stuffy image and when you say you are a ham these days people ask what's that? What does the RSGB really do for the hobby? Why hasn't someone thought of making a rig that someone without a licence can use on a band for which a licence isn't needed that could listen to the ham bands and be enabled for TX on the ham bands on presentation of a new licence? This would lower the entry cost to the hobby. If you want to be a ham you don't necessarily want to buy a CB or PMR and then have to fork out again. There are rigs that can work 10/11/12 but they are not generally type approved for CB and often turn out to be low in terms of quaility expectations for a ham.?

The beatmax video analogy works well @pete_north

Because Amateur Radio is now seen as an old male white (in the UK) pass time that doesn't really add any to society. As the world is going wireless their is greater pressure on the resource which is spectrum. When making decisions regulators look at the benefits that new technologies bring compared with what is the value of the current use e.g. to serve the growing demand to provide data to consumers versus a few old people swapping QSL cards and chatting about what they did yesterday - I wonder which one will win the argument. Also note that the amateur bands are usually harmonised on a regional or global level making it a lot cheaper for manufacturers to build equipment (hence the recent France proposal on 144 MHz).?

‘Nervous Foundation Holder’. I think we all have been there! Yes it’s daunting. So maybe if you have a Local ham you know, arrange a sked on the phone, even whilst on the phone work out a script, then get on the pre arranged frequency call your tame ham & work through your script.

When you’ve done that a couple of times the fear drops away.

‘Come on in the waters fine’! Welcome to the hobby.

Ian, G0PDZ

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 07:58 AM, Gareth Buxton wrote:

As a nervous Foundation Licence holder I have never transmitted on my own for fear of getting things wrong. I applaud the idea of entry level licence, the hobby needs to be welcoming people in not shutting people out.

Fantastic - well done on speaking out.
Firstly; there is NO right and NO WRONG way of talking to people over the air with your amateur licence. Saying to somebody; 'Good evening, this is M****, and I would like to have a first contact' is fine and any radio amateur with any self respect should then coach you along. Just ignore those who consider themselves some sort of arrogant elite?who will not give you help in the early stages.
Enjoy the hobby and I hope to have a contact with you some time.

John G4SWX

As a nervous Foundation Licence holder I have never transmitted on my own for fear of getting things wrong. I applaud the idea of entry level licence, the hobby needs to be welcoming people in not shutting people out.

I can try to help with you this one Gareth

There have been several changes since you got your licence. New challenges, and new opportunities. Many think that to keep its relevance, amateur radio needs to change to meet these challenges and opportunities. Some examples:

1. No-one needs to build radios to have one-to-one wireless communication now. VoIP and smartphones have changed that need, killing off one of amateur radio's main "selling points"

2. Education has changed. When I was at school, 'technology' education was all about carving things out of wood, plus metalwork. Today it's microbits, Raspberry Pis, coding and robotics, and STEM subjects are woven in to the curriculum

3. It's now easier to become a radio amateur, making the hobby more accessible

4. Maker communities have sprung up - coding, construction, robotics, sensors, 3D printing, wearable tech, etc. In a sense, today's makers & hackers are the modern equivalents of the old radio amateurs. Their sphere is growing, whilst ours is contracting

By making amateur radio visible to youngsters (and their parents), tying radio and construction in with what they're learning at school, facilitating demos like ISS contacts, and having a presence at maker events, younger people will discover that we exist and that we may add value. We're helping to ensure our own visibility and relevance. As a result of Tim Peake's ISS activities, amateur radio is returning to schools and universities (and hopefully reaching more than the 3 at your school).?

It works the other way - by amateurs keeping relevant and working with young innovators, maker groups, etc, we're learning too, and adapting maker tech and methodologies into the world of amateur radio.

Hope that helps,

Pete M0PSX

Gareth,

Interesting. In response:

> Amateur radio is not a hobby

That may have been true in the past, but no longer, I'm afraid.

According to clear statements on the websites of Ofcom, ARRL, RSGB and others, it's a hobby. I'm happy to forward you some URLs if you're in doubt.

Further, Section 1(1)(b) of the Ofcom licence clearly states that use of radio equipment is "as a leisure activity" - a hobby is defined as "an activity done regularly in one's leisure time"

> Amateur radio has not changed at all

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. Amateur Radio has changed massively over the last 40 years. If you took a snapshot of what the world of amateur radio was in 1979 and compared it to today, there are massive differences in what the landscape looks like. Technologies have changed, but so have attitudes, society, licensing, education. Where once amateur radio was a qualification and every rig was hand-built - that's no longer true. You may personally not agree with the way it's changed, but for the vast majority of the world, it has.

> There is no need to attract people or promote amateur radio

I note you didn't answer my "how would you like the hobby to look". Presumably, if you don't believe in getting new people on-board, that people entering post 2003 shouldn't count, or that it's a good idea to tell people that amateur radio still exists, then you'd be happy for amateur radio to shrink year-on-year until it's just a memory?

I note you didn't answer two questions:

> How do you respond to the statement that the hobby is fast becoming out-of-date, its best days are behind it, we've not kept up with current tech trends

My guess is as you don't think amateur radio or society has changed, there's no need for change or innovation, and it's fine to be seen as increasingly out-date and irrelevant?

> Do you feel that the hobby should evolve alongside current technology developments, and be ready for what I gather's being called the 4th industrial revolution? If so, how could this be achieved?

Presumably, see above.


Pete M0PSX