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On 5/10/22 15:25, Labguy wrote: Any suggestions as to which flavor I should learn? Is Fedora still popular? What about Red Hat? I started with redhat around 2002. It's reliable. If you want to explore the full range of apps and programs, debian has more packaged programs I think. Fedora would be familiar to you and fine to use. You can always add an odd program by compiling it on your machine rather than a package. Mint is a debian based distro that many like. How many on this list use RedHat vs. Debian-based linux distros? Others like arch?
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I use Debian, but I am a masochist. When I recommend a system to a new linux user, I generally recommend Mint. It is Debian, but without being opensource zealots. It holds your hand a little bit. Ubuntu has a similar philosophy, only it holds your hand a lot. I quit Redhat when they split their enterprise stuff out of the open source world, and left their obsolete empty hulls for them what brought them to the dance. Redhat is responsible for Lennart Pottering, and forcing his contributions onto the linux community, which makes me very sad. I have to fight with his systemd, avahi, and pulse audio programs virtually everyday. I would much rather be fighting with initd and alsa. -Chuck Harris On Tue, 10 May 2022 15:50:17 -0600 "John Griessen" <john@...> wrote: On 5/10/22 15:25, Labguy wrote:
> Any suggestions as to which flavor I should learn? Is Fedora still
> popular? What about Red Hat?
I started with redhat around 2002. It's reliable. If you want to
explore the full range of apps and programs, debian has more
packaged programs I think. Fedora would be familiar to you and fine
to use. You can always add an odd program by compiling it on your
machine rather than a package. Mint is a debian based distro that
many like.
How many on this list use RedHat vs. Debian-based linux distros?
Others like arch?
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On 5/10/22 17:50, John Griessen wrote: I started with redhat around 2002.? It's reliable.? If you want to explore the full range of? apps and programs, debian has more packaged programs I think.? Fedora would be familiar to you and fine to use.
You can always add an odd program by compiling it on your machine rather than a package.
Mint is a debian based distro that many like.
How many on this list use RedHat vs. Debian-based linux distros?
Others like arch? Debian-based here. Mint for desktops/laptops, Ubuntu and sometimes straight Debian for servers. Every time I see a Red Hat system, I feel like I've gone back in time a decade or so. Don't get me wrong, I like vintage tech (I run a museum for chrissakes) but that's not what I need for getting real work done. But, yes, 100% reliable. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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On 5/10/22 18:12, Chuck Harris wrote: which makes me very sad. I have to fight with his
systemd, avahi, and pulse audio programs virtually
everyday. I would much rather be fighting with initd
and alsa. In the Linux world, systemd is the new Godwin's Law.
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Debian based here.? Linux Mint 20.3 Cinnamon, to be precise.? Highly recommended.? After years of trying to get my family to switch to Linux, they finally started asking me to install Linux on their computers.? I usually do a dual boot so they can continue to use Windows if they want, but two family members whose computers I dual booted about 6 years ago told me that since I installed Linux they have NEVER booted into Windows.? A sister-in-law thanked me profusely for installing Linux on their computer, because, as she said, "Now I don't have to listen to Dave yell at the computer anymore."? Honestly, I don't know why anybody uses Windows anymore.
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For Linux distributions, I'm also going to add a vote for Mint.
I was a long time user of Fedora since Fedora 1 and finally hopped off that train around Fedora 11.? I was trying to get actual work done, and their rapid release cycle led to nothing but instability and obsolescence for applications and UI behaviors that I depended on.
The next jump was to CentOS, which was much more conservative in features and focused on stability and longevity.? It was great, and I would still be there, but it was recently assimilated and killed by RedHat.? I decided no more RedHat anything.
I bit the bullet and moved my work environment to Mint Mate, which is a fairly big jump for someone embedded in the RedHat way of doing things.? On Mint, I'm really happy with the way everything just works, and I'm hoping for a pleasant ride on the long-term release schedule.? I'm also enjoying the gigantic library of packages at my disposal, culled from Debian and Ubuntu.? RedHat/Fedora/CentOS always seemed to be lacking what I needed, and had too many fragmented and overlapping third-party repositories, trying desperately to keep up with Debian/Ubuntu.
For me, Linux is a tool to get work done.? I'm not interested in my work environment being a toy for developers to play with.? So far so good with Mint.
As for systemd, well, it's a way of life now.? I hold my nose and deal with it.? Take lots of notes on how to do common tasks.
I still run internet-facing servers running CentOS 6.5.? But that will probably change too.
-mark
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On 5/10/22 20:53, Jim Allyn - N7JA wrote: Debian based here.? Linux Mint 20.3 Cinnamon, to be precise.? Highly recommended.? After years of trying to get my family to switch to Linux, they finally started asking me to install Linux on their computers.? I usually do a dual boot so they can continue to use Windows if they want, but two family members whose computers I dual booted about 6 years ago told me that since I installed Linux they have NEVER booted into Windows.? A sister-in-law thanked me profusely for installing Linux on their computer, because, as she said, "Now I don't have to listen to Dave yell at the computer anymore."? Honestly, I don't know why anybody uses Windows anymore. I don't know why anyone ever used it in the first place. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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By the way, on my desktop I have VirtualBox installed with a licensed Windows 10 virtual machine for when I need to run Windows apps. That works very well. But even better, in the last few years the Wine Windows emulator has come along to the extent that my two frequency stability analysis programs now run very nicely without needing the VM. As a result, I almost never have to fire up the VM any more.
BTW, because I'm insane a couple of years ago I installed a VM for every version of Windows (minus maybe one or two) plus a couple of MS-DOSes. Attached is a screenshot showing them all running at once.
John
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On 5/10/22 20:53, Jim Allyn - N7JA wrote: Debian based here.? Linux Mint 20.3 Cinnamon, to be precise.? Highly recommended.? After years of trying to get my family to switch to Linux, they finally started asking me to install Linux on their computers.? I usually do a dual boot so they can continue to use Windows if they want, but two family members whose computers I dual booted about 6 years ago told me that since I installed Linux they have NEVER booted into Windows.? A sister-in-law thanked me profusely for installing Linux on their computer, because, as she said, "Now I don't have to listen to Dave yell at the computer anymore."? Honestly, I don't know why anybody uses Windows anymore.
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But remember:
Windows CE
Windows ME
Windows NT
¡±³¦±ð³¾±ð²Ô³Ù¡±
OK, I will shut up now¡
Larry
AC9OX
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100% agree with Chuck's comments.
I'm a happy long-time Debian user.
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On 11/05/22 10:12, Chuck Harris wrote: I use Debian, but I am a masochist.
When I recommend a system to a new linux user,
I generally recommend Mint. It is Debian, but
without being opensource zealots. It holds your hand
a little bit. Ubuntu has a similar philosophy,
only it holds your hand a lot.
I quit Redhat when they split their enterprise stuff
out of the open source world, and left their obsolete
empty hulls for them what brought them to the dance.
Redhat is responsible for Lennart Pottering, and
forcing his contributions onto the linux community,
which makes me very sad. I have to fight with his
systemd, avahi, and pulse audio programs virtually
everyday. I would much rather be fighting with initd
and alsa.
-Chuck Harris
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Not a big surprise... We have created a world where science has been replaced by the consensus of the opinions of non scientists, and settled science (whatever that is) has become a thing. In our new world, diversity of thought has to be censored, censured, and its practitioners destroyed. So, it only makes sense that when the moneyed people decree that systemd is the way they want to go, anyone that disagrees should be squashed, squelched and destroyed. Godwined, so to speak; to properly verb a proper noun... -Chuck Harris On Tue, 10 May 2022 18:46:20 -0400 "John Ackermann N8UR" <jra@...> wrote: On 5/10/22 18:12, Chuck Harris wrote:
which makes me very sad. I have to fight with his
systemd, avahi, and pulse audio programs virtually
everyday. I would much rather be fighting with initd
and alsa. In the Linux world, systemd is the new Godwin's Law.
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I started using linux when slackware required about 30 5.25 diskettes. Also used mainframe UNIX and Xenix. I have since used FreeBSD, Ubuntu, Kali, RedHat, Fedora, CentOS, Mint, Debian, and others. As I have moved around these, I have always come back to Fedora.? I had some problems in the low teens versions but have been happy with it now for quite a few years and have it on several systems.? About the last decade I have been running Fedora with Plasma on my primary system. Used Gnome for a year but never happy with it. Nice that I can change desktops easily so I can try different ones but Plasma is great. I still have some Windows systems but seldom use them.? Like John, I have a bunch of VMs that I can bring up as needed such as Windows (10, XP, 95, 2000, NT), couple of DOS, and other Linux (Ubuntu, Debian, Mint, CentOS, Android, Kali, etc.).? I expect to stay with Fedora and keep close to the newer releases.
Something to consider about these Linuxes is that some are geared for bleeding edge features/code and have short life revisions while others are more a long term strategy.? You need to decide if you want to chase the newest tech/features/app revs (kind of where I am) or go for long term tested stability ( I used that for linux CNC apps).? Generally a more important thing is to find out what desktop you really like since that is what you interact with the most. Though Fedora defaults to Gnome, which is pretty good, I like the more recent versions of Plasma. It is fast and massively configurable.
Another aspect is how much CPU performance do you have. Some Linuxes are very heavy and CPU intensive while some are light and snappy. I think RedHat might fit into the first and Mint might fit into the latter.
Everyone will have an opinion but I suggest you try out some of the "live" versions that don't install to the disk to see what feels comfortable as an OS and as a desktop. OS's, like cars, come in many brands and there are "owners" for all of them.
Happy hunting.
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This thread convinced me to try Linux and specifically Mint. I downloaded Mint Cinnamon and the installation instructions. The latter stopped me cold, like riding a horse into quicksand. I realize more than ever how ignorant I am of computer technology and maybe also that I am too dumb. I have an old desktop that I should probably practice on. My laptop (this computer) works and I use it constantly. Runs Win-10 which sort of works. I have not been happy with Windows for a very long time. Anyway, I am asking for sympathy unless someone knows how I can get a lot smarter fast.
?? I worked for -hp- a million years ago. It spoiled me for anywhere else.
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On 5/10/2022 5:56 PM, Mark Litwack wrote: For Linux distributions, I'm also going to add a vote for Mint.
I was a long time user of Fedora since Fedora 1 and finally hopped off that train around Fedora 11.? I was trying to get actual work done, and their rapid release cycle led to nothing but instability and obsolescence for applications and UI behaviors that I depended on.
The next jump was to CentOS, which was much more conservative in features and focused on stability and longevity.? It was great, and I would still be there, but it was recently assimilated and killed by RedHat.? I decided no more RedHat anything.
I bit the bullet and moved my work environment to Mint Mate, which is a fairly big jump for someone embedded in the RedHat way of doing things.? On Mint, I'm really happy with the way everything just works, and I'm hoping for a pleasant ride on the long-term release schedule.? I'm also enjoying the gigantic library of packages at my disposal, culled from Debian and Ubuntu. RedHat/Fedora/CentOS always seemed to be lacking what I needed, and had too many fragmented and overlapping third-party repositories, trying desperately to keep up with Debian/Ubuntu.
For me, Linux is a tool to get work done.? I'm not interested in my work environment being a toy for developers to play with.? So far so good with Mint.
As for systemd, well, it's a way of life now.? I hold my nose and deal with it.? Take lots of notes on how to do common tasks.
I still run internet-facing servers running CentOS 6.5.? But that will probably change too.
-mark
--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@...
WB6KBL
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I would much rather be fighting with initd and alsa.
I don't know about nor have an opinion on the initd/systemd religious wars, but if you like/prefer alsa, it is still there under pulse, on later systems.? Pulse is flexible, but is a bit of a resource hog.
Running Linux Mint here (19.3 64 bit, still supported and up-to-date) plus a (currently dormant) old FreeBSD based NAS/server.? Mint is indeed Debian based, but via Ubuntu.? (I think there is a pure Debian based Mint version, but not sure to be honest.)
Updates arrive thick and fast at the moment (three this morning) but that's due to people elsewhere poking at things they shouldn't, being discovered and issues being patched quickly.
Applying updates only takes a few minutes at most, including any kernel updates and any needed restart in the case of kernel changes.
73.
Dave G8KBV
--
Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source software:
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The latter stopped me cold, like riding a horse into quicksand. I realize more than ever how ignorant I am of computer technology and maybe also that I am too dumb.
Probably just stunned at the onslaught of "new to you" stuff. Like the great HHGTTG has printed on it's front cover...? "Dont Panic".
Find a machine you can use to boot from a USB stick (or DVD). If DVD, make sure it has a drive you can use to write DVD'd.
(The more capable the machine is, CPU and RAM wise, the better of course.)
Using you current OS, download the .iso file for the Linux (or other) OS distribution you want to try, and use any of several software tools (unetbootin for example on Windows, though later Windows can burn DVD's from a .iso natively anyway.)? to create a bootable system based on that .iso, but on the DVD or USB stick.
Then boot that to try stuff and explore the new worlds etc.?? OK, so on a DVD it won't be a quick system, but you should be able to do most things to explore, without affecting your currently installed OS.
(It is also the way to get a fully secure machine, without a local hard drive, so nothing persists beyond the running session.)
Most of us who use Linux these days migrated that way from the Windows world (there are people who skipped that!)? But yes, it is a bit daunting at first.
Look at the various Linux Distribution user forums and self help sites.? LOTS of good advice to be had, and very much fewer of the "screwdriver mechanic" types..
Feel free to ask questions.? Someone will have been there before you and know the way out of confusion.
Lastly, it is worth noting.? If there is anything that is Windows Centric you wish to use (NI-GPIB) for example, while it is possible on some Linux's, it is not a trivial task to get such stuff working if it can work.
(The last Linux distro' I know of that had NI-GPIB drivers built in, was the late lamented Scientific Linux.? NI's own RTOS is Linux based, so why they don't support it well out here in userland is a mystery.)
But...? It IS possible (I've done it) to use a "Virtual Machine", even the free version of Oracal's VirtualBox with (say) Windows XP inside with limited or even no internet access, hosted on a Linux machine, that is able to use NI's USB-GPIB devices with all the native windows drivers and software tools etc, and it works very well indeed, I have an old Win3x 16bit program working that way, USB-Serial devices work well that way too.
Stick with it, and as before "Dont Panic"...??? Someone has been there before you, and can help.? One step at a time.
Best Regards.
??? Dave G8KBV.
--
Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source software:
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On Tue, 10 May 2022 at 22:50, John Griessen < john@...> wrote: On 5/10/22 15:25, Labguy wrote:
?> Any suggestions as to which flavor I should learn? Is Fedora still popular? What about Red Hat?
I started with redhat around 2002.? It's reliable.? If you want to explore the full range of? apps and programs, debian has more
packaged programs I think.? Fedora would be familiar to you and fine to use.
You can always add an odd program by compiling it on your machine rather than a package.
Mint is a debian based distro that many like.
How many on this list use RedHat vs. Debian-based linux distros?
A general linux discussion is off topic here. But what distributions work painlessly with a National Instruments GPIB card? I'm currently using an NI card in a Sun Blade 2000? with a 1.2 GHz SPARC processor running Solaris 10. But I want to retire that machine, as its MFLOPS/kW are rather low. ???? My Dell 7920, with two 26-core 2 GHz Xeons and 384 GB RAM is using less power than the SPARC with? a single 1.2 GHz CPU and a few GB of RAM.
I need to get a GPIB card in this Dell 7920. I'm currently running Ubuntu. Last time I looked, there were no NI drivers or Ubuntu, and the open-source
was a nightmare to try to install on whatever system I tried to install it on (probably CentOS, but might have been Debian or something else).
?
Others like arch?
I think Arch is good if you want the ultimate in performance, and don't mind spending all your time maintaining the system. Since you build most of it yourself, the code can be optmised to make best use of the instructions your CPU supports. But I want to get work done - not spend my time updating a constantly moving operating system.
Dave
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I had ME and all the major NT versions.? No CE, though. :-)
But remember:
Windows CE
Windows ME
Windows NT
¡±³¦±ð³¾±ð²Ô³Ù¡±
OK, I will shut up now¡
Larry
AC9OX
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An advantage of Mint, and to a lesser extent Ubuntu, is that they are less dogmatic about FOSS than Debian and make it easy to install codecs, etc., that modern users expect to be available.
On May 11, 2022, at 3:31 AM, tgerbic < tgerbic@...> wrote:
I started using linux when slackware required about 30 5.25 diskettes. Also used mainframe UNIX and Xenix. I have since used FreeBSD, Ubuntu, Kali, RedHat, Fedora, CentOS, Mint, Debian, and others. As I have moved around these, I have always come back to Fedora.? I had some problems in the low teens versions but have been happy with it now for quite a few years and have it on several systems.? About the last decade I have been running Fedora with Plasma on my primary system. Used Gnome for a year but never happy with it. Nice that I can change desktops easily so I can try different ones but Plasma is great. I still have some Windows systems but seldom use them.? Like John, I have a bunch of VMs that I can bring up as needed such as Windows (10, XP, 95, 2000, NT), couple of DOS, and other Linux (Ubuntu, Debian, Mint, CentOS, Android, Kali, etc.).? I expect to stay with Fedora and keep close to the newer releases.
Something to consider about these Linuxes is that some are geared for bleeding edge features/code and have short life revisions while others are more a long term strategy.? You need to decide if you want to chase the newest tech/features/app revs (kind of where I am) or go for long term tested stability ( I used that for linux CNC apps).? Generally a more important thing is to find out what desktop you really like since that is what you interact with the most. Though Fedora defaults to Gnome, which is pretty good, I like the more recent versions of Plasma. It is fast and massively configurable.
Another aspect is how much CPU performance do you have. Some Linuxes are very heavy and CPU intensive while some are light and snappy. I think RedHat might fit into the first and Mint might fit into the latter.
Everyone will have an opinion but I suggest you try out some of the "live" versions that don't install to the disk to see what feels comfortable as an OS and as a desktop. OS's, like cars, come in many brands and there are "owners" for all of them.
Happy hunting.
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I have machines running CentOS6/7/8, Ubuntu 16/18/20, Suse 15.1, Windows 10/11/32/64bit, Mac Monterey. As I develop software that has to run on all of them. I have to say, there's no way I'd bother trying to get GPIB working on Linux, drivers are harder to come by and always seem more unstable. I'm sure it can be done but I can do without the headaches! I have a separate Win10 box just for GPIB control, it just works, end of problem.
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On Wed, 11 May 2022 at 12:06, Keith < keith@...> wrote: I have machines running CentOS6/7/8, Ubuntu 16/18/20, Suse 15.1, Windows 10/11/32/64bit, Mac Monterey. As I develop software that has to run on all of them. I have to say, there's no way I'd bother trying to get GPIB working on Linux, drivers are harder to come by and always seem more unstable. I'm sure it can be done but I can do without the headaches! I have a separate Win10 box just for GPIB control, it just works, end of problem.
I just looked on the NI site, and there are drivers for Linux? - Ubuntu, SUSE, Redhat and CentOS.
So it should be relatively painless - all I should need to do is re-compile my code for Linux, which should be easy. (It's command line driven, so it should recompile with few, if any changes.)
I make use of a lot of Unix shell scripts for GPIB stuff, and don't want to collect data on Windoze, then copy it to a Linux machine. At the moment I do it all on Solaris, but the computer is very power hungry.
Dave
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Dave McGuire
Jim Allyn - N7JA
Larry McElhiney
Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd