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HP 8559 / 853A How to peak hold and normalize display??


 

I would like to use a high level noise source (one of those $15 Chinese boards) with a HP8559/853 to do filter and amplifier passband / stopband measurements. I know that in general I have store the noise source's output and then subtract the filter (or amplifier) output in order to normalize the measurement against the non-constant noise source output.

I'm sure this must be a relatively routine measurement technique, but I don't know what buttons to press in what order on the 853A display unit to do this. The manual is pretty ambiguous about how to use the "A" and "B" "Trace" buttons.

Could someone who does this routinely explain which buttons to press when? And maybe, more clearly, what each of them does?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Lenny Wintfeld


 

It is a fairly routine measurement to make, but it's usually done with
a network analyzer. It needn't be done with a VNA if you just want
frequency response (a scalar quantity...amplitude, no phase), a scalar
network analyzer will do the trick. One typically calibrates out test
fixtures and cables, but source leveling is usually done by the sweep
generator in a "set it and forget it" sort of way.

That said, I'm pretty sure the 853 frame can do stored trace
subtraction, but it's been so long since I've seen one I don't recall
exactly how. :-(

-Dave

On 10/14/2015 02:57 PM, w2bvh w2bvh@... [hp_agilent_equipment]
wrote:
I would like to use a high level noise source (one of those $15 Chinese
boards) with a HP8559/853 to do filter and amplifier passband / stopband
measurements. I know that in general I have store the noise source's
output and then subtract the filter (or amplifier) output in order to
normalize the measurement against the non-constant noise source output.

I'm sure this must be a relatively routine measurement technique, but I
don't know what buttons to press in what order on the 853A display unit
to do this. The manual is pretty ambiguous about how to use the "A" and
"B" "Trace" buttons.

Could someone who does this routinely explain which buttons to press
when? And maybe, more clearly, what each of them does?

Thanks in advance for any help.


--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


Bill Lauchlan
 

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I suspect the 853A cannot subtract two STORED Traces. I think one of them will have to be Live. If your using Noise as your Signal, then you will need to use Noise Averaging, which the 853A will do. This will mean you will have two Noise Averaged Traces to Store before Subtraction. I don¡¯t think the 853A can do that. If you can extract these to a Computer, then the Computer can do the final math. This all pre-supposes that the 8559A is a good enough Spectrum Analyzer, which I doubt. It depends on what kind of accuracy you¡¯re looking for. Rgds Bill Lauchlan

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From: hp_agilent_equipment@... [mailto:hp_agilent_equipment@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 6:03 PM
To: hp_agilent_equipment@...
Subject: Re: [hp_agilent_equipment] HP 8559 / 853A How to peak hold and normalize display??

?

?


It is a fairly routine measurement to make, but it's usually done with
a network analyzer. It needn't be done with a VNA if you just want
frequency response (a scalar quantity...amplitude, no phase), a scalar
network analyzer will do the trick. One typically calibrates out test
fixtures and cables, but source leveling is usually done by the sweep
generator in a "set it and forget it" sort of way.

That said, I'm pretty sure the 853 frame can do stored trace
subtraction, but it's been so long since I've seen one I don't recall
exactly how. :-(

-Dave

On 10/14/2015 02:57 PM, w2bvh w2bvh@... [hp_agilent_equipment]
wrote:
> I would like to use a high level noise source (one of those $15 Chinese
> boards) with a HP8559/853 to do filter and amplifier passband / stopband
> measurements. I know that in general I have store the noise source's
> output and then subtract the filter (or amplifier) output in order to
> normalize the measurement against the non-constant noise source output.
>
> I'm sure this must be a relatively routine measurement technique, but I
> don't know what buttons to press in what order on the 853A display unit
> to do this. The manual is pretty ambiguous about how to use the "A" and
> "B" "Trace" buttons.
>
> Could someone who does this routinely explain which buttons to press
> when? And maybe, more clearly, what each of them does?
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


 

Lenny,

The 853 storage, if I remember correctly, was based on the HP 8750A Storage Normalizer. The buttons have different names, but the concept is similar. You may find some useful instructions in the HP 8750 manual which you can find on the web.

Vladan


 

How "high" is the level? Depending on the bandwidth and power level, you may want to avoid this method on some devices. Passive devices and amplifiers through VHF should be no problem. In the microwave range, some amplifiers can be damaged by noise testing - they can't handle the peak voltages, even though the average power may be quite small.

The fastest, tiniest devices are most at risk because they can only take so much peak energy, regardless of the power spectrum. To get high average power in broadband noise signals, large voltage excursions are needed. You can see the envelope of these in the time domain, and consider what effect the peak voltage may have on the DUT and the measuring equipment. If the peaks are equivalent to less than the peak CW voltage that the device can handle, then it should be no problem.

Also consider the same regarding the SA input capability. This is aggravated by the low test signal power spectral density - in order to see the fairly small resulting power levels, the front-end needs to be set to higher sensitivity ranges, so the front step attenuator that usually protects somewhat against typical RF CW levels may be set to minimal attenuation. It's good practice to keep at least 10 dB attenuation up front, but it's easy to forget during operation, exposing the mixer to possible damage.

If the SA goes to microwave ranges, but the required DUT and noise bandwidth are much smaller, say audio up to VHF, I'd recommend adding a diode-clamp type limiter to protect the SA input, just in case. Then you won't have to worry about the peaks, and can try to get as much noise source power as possible - you'll want all you can get to provide reasonable test levels.

For lower frequency SAs and such with high impedance input, there's usually plenty of input protection, so noise testing should be no problem.

Ed


 

Thank you Vladan, I got that manual and it helped a lot. I'll give it a try tomorrow.
Regards, Lenny Wintfeld (ham radio call: W2BVH)

----- Original Message -----
From: pianovt@... [hp_agilent_equipment] <hp_agilent_equipment@...>
To: hp agilent equipment <hp_agilent_equipment@...>
Sent: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 22:58:08 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [hp_agilent_equipment] Re: HP 8559 / 853A How to peak hold and normalize display??

Lenny,

The 853 storage, if I remember correctly, was based on the HP 8750A Storage Normalizer. The buttons have different names, but the concept is similar. You may find some useful instructions in the HP 8750 manual which you can find on the web.

Vladan