¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

  1. HP-Agilent-Keysight-Equipment
  2. Topics

8341B vs 8673B

 

Hi all,

Thanks again for great advice on my thread about spectrum analyzers.

I'm looking to expand my capabilities with one or more signal generators. I'm mostly interested in pulse modulation and highly accurate control of pulse timing and signal phase for experiments in the MIMO/phased array space.

I have been thinking about picking up an 8341B and/or an 8673B. Anyone who wants to share an opinion is welcome! If you have different ideas about what equipment I should be consifering, I'd love to hear it.

I will start somewhere in the S-K bands but I'd like to work my way all the way up to around 100GHz.

I've also seen screw-type waveguide phase adjusters that I believe will be useful as I push into the mmwave range, but I don't know a lot about what to look for.

Good support in HP-IB and Linux GPIB specifically is a plus since that should help me automate my tests.

I believe I will also need to consider an external clock source, so advice about that is also welcome!

Thank you in advance!
 

Is the mmwave space not popular in this group?
 

On 9/11/22 20:04, Donald Viszneki wrote:
Is the mmwave space not popular in this group?
I don't think that's fair to say at all..

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
 

Having worked in the 75 - 110 GHz range and seeing the rising popularity of 122 GHz amateur radio communications I think it¡¯s safe to say mmwave work is alive and well, just not so much with HPAK test equipment.

Steve K.

On Sep 11, 2022, at 7:06 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:

?On 9/11/22 20:04, Donald Viszneki wrote:
Is the mmwave space not popular in this group?
I don't think that's fair to say at all..

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
 

I have an 8340B and 8341B and love them. They're excellent synthesizers and they have pulse modulation capability. If you're willing to spend a bit of extra money I'd spring for the '40, especially if you're looking to get up to higher frequencies. And like all HP equipment of that era they have great HP-IB support. I have a Linux GPIB setup (and could probably test things for you), but I haven't used it since I got an E5810A (also highly recommend). Linux GPIB should not be a limiting factor, I think, as long as the instrument has proper HPIB or GPIB support.

If you want precise pulse timing you might look at the HP 5339A time synthesizer. But, I have no experience with that.

What's your plan to go up to higher frequencies? Start with instruments like the 8340 and use doublers etc?

Based on the things you described, it sounds like you might care about phase noise. Is that true? If so, you might look at the LMX2820 evaluation module. That gets you up to 22GHz with excellent phase noise. But that's just a PLL - not a proper synthesizer, so you'd have to build out a lot of other circuitry as well, and you'll want a low phase noise OCXO for it (probably 100 MHz). If you need higher power (ie to drive doublers etc), you might need to amplify that signal without adding much noise. I've only looked into this very briefly, but Hittite (now Analog Devices) have some interesting low-noise power amplifiers. The HMC797APM5E looks interesting, for instance. You might also check out this design: .

Low phase noise HP generators (such as the 8663A) only get you up to the low GHz region, so you'll have to multiply up.

Matt
 

It should be noted that the 8340 can support frequencies up to 110GHz using the HP 8355X mm Wave source modules. These modules are also supported by the 8350 and some versions of the 8673.

Her is a link describing the mm Source modules configurations and capbilities


Cheers !

Bruce

I have an 8340B and 8341B and love them. They're excellent synthesizers and
they have pulse modulation capability. If you're willing to spend a bit of
extra money I'd spring for the '40, especially if you're looking to get up
to higher frequencies. And like all HP equipment of that era they have
great HP-IB support. I have a Linux GPIB setup (and could probably test
things for you), but I haven't used it since I got an E5810A (also highly
recommend). Linux GPIB should not be a limiting factor, I think, as long as
the instrument has proper HPIB or GPIB support.

If you want precise pulse timing you might look at the HP 5339A time
synthesizer. But, I have no experience with that.

What's your plan to go up to higher frequencies? Start with instruments
like the 8340 and use doublers etc?

Based on the things you described, it sounds like you might care about
phase noise. Is that true? If so, you might look at the LMX2820 evaluation
module. That gets you up to 22GHz with excellent phase noise. But that's
just a PLL - not a proper synthesizer, so you'd have to build out a lot of
other circuitry as well, and you'll want a low phase noise OCXO for it
(probably 100 MHz). If you need higher power (ie to drive doublers etc),
you might need to amplify that signal without adding much noise. I've only
looked into this very briefly, but Hittite (now Analog Devices) have some
interesting low-noise power amplifiers. The HMC797APM5E looks interesting,
for instance. You might also check out this design: .

Low phase noise HP generators (such as the 8663A) only get you up to the
low GHz region, so you'll have to multiply up.

Matt
 

OOPS !!

Forgot the link to the mm Wave source modules


Cheers!

Bruce




Quoting Matt Huszagh <huszaghmatt@...>:

I have an 8340B and 8341B and love them. They're excellent synthesizers and
they have pulse modulation capability. If you're willing to spend a bit of
extra money I'd spring for the '40, especially if you're looking to get up
to higher frequencies. And like all HP equipment of that era they have
great HP-IB support. I have a Linux GPIB setup (and could probably test
things for you), but I haven't used it since I got an E5810A (also highly
recommend). Linux GPIB should not be a limiting factor, I think, as long as
the instrument has proper HPIB or GPIB support.

If you want precise pulse timing you might look at the HP 5339A time
synthesizer. But, I have no experience with that.

What's your plan to go up to higher frequencies? Start with instruments
like the 8340 and use doublers etc?

Based on the things you described, it sounds like you might care about
phase noise. Is that true? If so, you might look at the LMX2820 evaluation
module. That gets you up to 22GHz with excellent phase noise. But that's
just a PLL - not a proper synthesizer, so you'd have to build out a lot of
other circuitry as well, and you'll want a low phase noise OCXO for it
(probably 100 MHz). If you need higher power (ie to drive doublers etc),
you might need to amplify that signal without adding much noise. I've only
looked into this very briefly, but Hittite (now Analog Devices) have some
interesting low-noise power amplifiers. The HMC797APM5E looks interesting,
for instance. You might also check out this design: .

Low phase noise HP generators (such as the 8663A) only get you up to the
low GHz region, so you'll have to multiply up.

Matt
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I normaly use an HP8340B for uwave using multiplier .

I have a x4 from Marki that gives more than 20 dBm up to 52 GHz than waveguide multiplier Varactor type up to 100 GHz and with limitation ?up to 150 Ghz .

In Scalar mode with waveguide detector and dir coupler I can cover the ham band of 76 and 122 GHz.

In VNA is connected to HP8510C up to 50 GHz.

I have 2 of this generators working fine , in the past I had failures not so easy to recover because is a very complex design a lot of loop that compensate all the parameters.

Ciao

IW1EPY

?

?

Da: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Per conto di Donald Viszneki
Inviato: luned¨¬ 12 settembre 2022 02:05
A: [email protected]
Oggetto: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8341B vs 8673B

?

Is the mmwave space not popular in this group?


Privo di virus.
 

"Gianni via groups.io" <gianni.chiodo@...> writes:

I normaly use an HP8340B for uwave using multiplier .

I have a x4 from Marki that gives more than 20 dBm up to 52 GHz than waveguide multiplier Varactor type up to 100 GHz and with limitation up to 150 Ghz .

In Scalar mode with waveguide detector and dir coupler I can cover the ham band of 76 and 122 GHz.

In VNA is connected to HP8510C up to 50 GHz.
Hi Gianni,

Can you elaborate on this 8510C setup a bit more? The 8340 through the
x4 Marki goes to an 8517? Does the 8510C software handle this fine? Do
you just restrict the 8510 frequency range to the quadrupler input range
and then just adjust the display readings in your head? Or, does the
setup work a little differently?

Thanks
Matt
[email protected]
 

You set the 8340B with x4 multiplier and the multiplier out using an attenuator goes to the 8517 .
Using the 8340B multiplier feature the 8510 ask for let me say sweep from 26 to 52 GHz and the 8340 perform in accordance so set the correct sweep 4 times lower .
Even using?8340B stand alone the reading is the multiplied frequency.
I use the same approach?connecting the Gigatronics scalar analyzer .
If i have to go lower than 26 GHz i connect direct the 8340B to the 8515 without the multiplier or multiplier x1.
thats all.
Gianni
IW1EPY

Il giorno lun 12 set 2022 alle ore 15:50 Matt Huszagh <huszaghmatt@...> ha scritto:
"Gianni via " <gianni.chiodo=[email protected]> writes:

> I normaly use an HP8340B for uwave using multiplier .
>
> I have a x4 from Marki that gives more than 20 dBm up to 52 GHz than waveguide multiplier Varactor type up to 100 GHz and with limitation? up to 150 Ghz .
>
> In Scalar mode with waveguide detector and dir coupler I can cover the ham band of 76 and 122 GHz.
>
> In VNA is connected to HP8510C up to 50 GHz.

Hi Gianni,

Can you elaborate on this 8510C setup a bit more? The 8340 through the
x4 Marki goes to an 8517? Does the 8510C software handle this fine? Do
you just restrict the 8510 frequency range to the quadrupler input range
and then just adjust the display readings in your head? Or, does the
setup work a little differently?

Thanks
Matt
 

"gianni chiodo" <chiodo.gianni@...> writes:

You set the 8340B with x4 multiplier and the multiplier out using an
attenuator goes to the 8517 .
Using the 8340B multiplier feature the 8510 ask for let me say sweep from
26 to 52 GHz and the 8340 perform in accordance so set the correct sweep 4
times lower .
Even using 8340B stand alone the reading is the multiplied frequency.
I use the same approach connecting the Gigatronics scalar analyzer .
If i have to go lower than 26 GHz i connect direct the 8340B to the 8515
without the multiplier or multiplier x1.
thats all.
That's a cool capability I wasn't aware of. Thanks for pointing that out
Gianni. It would be nice if the 8510 could control a switch driver
controlling a pair of switches too. That way, you could get the full 10
MHz to 52 GHz in one sweep. That would be useful for things like time
domain low pass mode. I didn't see anything about that in the manual
though.

Matt
 

Quoting Matt Huszagh <huszaghmatt@...>:
Something I've missed also. Where in the menus do you find the appropriate settings ?? This would be convenient when using the mm source modules.

Cheers!

Bruce

"gianni chiodo" <chiodo.gianni@...> writes:

You set the 8340B with x4 multiplier and the multiplier out using an
attenuator goes to the 8517 .
Using the 8340B multiplier feature the 8510 ask for let me say sweep from
26 to 52 GHz and the 8340 perform in accordance so set the correct sweep 4
times lower .
Even using 8340B stand alone the reading is the multiplied frequency.
I use the same approach connecting the Gigatronics scalar analyzer .
If i have to go lower than 26 GHz i connect direct the 8340B to the 8515
without the multiplier or multiplier x1.
thats all.
That's a cool capability I wasn't aware of. Thanks for pointing that out
Gianni. It would be nice if the 8510 could control a switch driver
controlling a pair of switches too. That way, you could get the full 10
MHz to 52 GHz in one sweep. That would be useful for things like time
domain low pass mode. I didn't see anything about that in the manual
though.

Matt
 

"Bruce" <bruce@...> writes:

Quoting Matt Huszagh <huszaghmatt@...>:
Something I've missed also. Where in the menus do you find the
appropriate settings ?? This would be convenient when using the mm
source modules.
I believe it's under System -> More -> EDIT MULT. SRC.

Take a look at Controlling Multiple Sources in the 8510C operating
manual. Forward a few pages there's a section entitled "SOURCE 1 Formula
Use". This allows you to apply offsets and multiplications to a source.

If you have the official HP/Agilent mm source modules, these should have
a bus that does this for you; i.e., you don't need to mess with these
menus.

If you don't have the official modules, then this would indeed be the
approach.

Matt
 

Matt Huszagh <huszaghmatt@...> writes:

Take a look at Controlling Multiple Sources in the 8510C operating
manual. Forward a few pages there's a section entitled "SOURCE 1 Formula
Use". This allows you to apply offsets and multiplications to a source.
I should clarify this statement as it's somewhat poorly phrased. The
8510C doesn't apply frequency offsets or multiply your RF source
signal. It simply tells the RF source to generate a frequency that is
some combination of offset and multiple or submultiple of the displayed
frequency for a given sweep point. Probably obvious, but worth
clarifying. This is all explained in the manual.

Matt
 

Matt -
Sure - I just never thought about it that way - I was thinking that the 8340 would be where the configuration was done.

No problem

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting Matt Huszagh <huszaghmatt@...>:

Matt Huszagh <huszaghmatt@...> writes:

Take a look at Controlling Multiple Sources in the 8510C operating
manual. Forward a few pages there's a section entitled "SOURCE 1 Formula
Use". This allows you to apply offsets and multiplications to a source.
I should clarify this statement as it's somewhat poorly phrased. The
8510C doesn't apply frequency offsets or multiply your RF source
signal. It simply tells the RF source to generate a frequency that is
some combination of offset and multiple or submultiple of the displayed
frequency for a given sweep point. Probably obvious, but worth
clarifying. This is all explained in the manual.

Matt
 

Quoting Matt Huszagh <huszaghmatt@...>:

"Bruce" <bruce@...> writes:

Quoting Matt Huszagh <huszaghmatt@...>:
Something I've missed also. Where in the menus do you find the
appropriate settings ?? This would be convenient when using the mm
source modules.
I believe it's under System -> More -> EDIT MULT. SRC.

Take a look at Controlling Multiple Sources in the 8510C operating
manual. Forward a few pages there's a section entitled "SOURCE 1 Formula
Use". This allows you to apply offsets and multiplications to a source.

If you have the official HP/Agilent mm source modules, these should have
a bus that does this for you; i.e., you don't need to mess with these
menus.

If you don't have the official modules, then this would indeed be the
approach.

Matt
 

Matt -
AFIK, the source modules are not connected to the 8430 in the same way they are connected to the 8350 (and also, I believe to the 8673).

I'm just starting to play with the source modules (HP series) and will let you know. I believe I will need to use the 8510 multiplier technique.

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting Bruce <bruce@...>:

Quoting Matt Huszagh <huszaghmatt@...>:

"Bruce" <bruce@...> writes:

Quoting Matt Huszagh <huszaghmatt@...>:
Something I've missed also. Where in the menus do you find the
appropriate settings ?? This would be convenient when using the mm
source modules.
I believe it's under System -> More -> EDIT MULT. SRC.

Take a look at Controlling Multiple Sources in the 8510C operating
manual. Forward a few pages there's a section entitled "SOURCE 1 Formula
Use". This allows you to apply offsets and multiplications to a source.

If you have the official HP/Agilent mm source modules, these should have
a bus that does this for you; i.e., you don't need to mess with these
menus.

If you don't have the official modules, then this would indeed be the
approach.

Matt
 

What's your plan to go up to higher frequencies? Start with instruments like the 8340 and use doublers etc?
That is one possibility. Another approach I think about is siggen + harmonic distortion + filter bank.

I am very worried about phase noise, especially as I climb the spectrum. But I think I am comfortable working my way up. Maybe I'll have to sell a less capable machine to finance a more capable one, but I'd rather have some experience under my belt before investing more money, even if it costs a little more in the long run.

But maybe a lower phase noise fundamental out of a sigal generator is worth some extra complexity now to save myself some growing pains later!

Tough decisions!

1 - 18 of 18