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Clock Doubler Design ideas
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ArtekMedia
Tom
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If you Google "clock doubler" you will find dozens of simple circuits for doing this. I suspect with the right device you could even rectify the the 5MHz input signal to get enough DC to power the thing as well Dave Dave & Lynn Henderson ArtekMedia Out-of-Print Technical Manuals www.ArtekMedia.com manuals@... 651-269-4265 Tom Miller wrote: Hi Don, |
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Tom Miller
Yes, but they work with sine waveforms. This is a square wave and hence the second harmonic is limited.
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I will measure the source today to see what it can drive. Tom ----- Original Message -----
From: "dlgraybeal" <dangerousengineering@...> To: <hp_agilent_equipment@...> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [hp_agilent_equipment]Clock Doubler Design ideas Try minicircuits.com. They offer all kinds of doublers both SMT and coaxial. |
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J. Forster
In thinkingt about my suggestion of last night there is a refinement that
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might improve performance. Insted of a series cap and LC tank to GND. the tank could be a small 5 MHz transformer with a 2 or 3 to 1 ratio. That would improve the match between the TTL or better CMOS output and the likely 50 Ohm mixer inputs. Best, -John ============= Yes, but they work with sine waveforms. This is a square wave and hence |
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I'm quite confident that the Mini Circuits MK3 is OK.
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From the application note of MiniCircuits at Q. What happens to the output of a frequency doubler when it is driven too hard? A. Think of a frequency doubler as a mixer with the same frequency signal applied to both the RF and IF ports; sum and difference frequency signals will appear at the output. When excessive signal level is applied, the frequency doubler will operate in heavy saturation, and higher-order harmonics will be greater in amplitude relative to the desired second-harmonic. In addition, the second harmonic output will not increase in linear proportion to the input so that effective conversion loss would be higher. Make sure the input power to the frequency doubler is within the power range specified for optimum performance. ===> probably you have to put some attenuator between the output and the doubler. Q. Can the input waveform be other than a sine wave? A. Yes, a frequency doubler will operate with various input wave shapes. However, a square wave would probably provide higher efficiency since it would drive the device harder into its conducting and non-conducting state. ===> Your square wave output should be fine Lang --- In hp_agilent_equipment@..., "Tom Miller" <tmiller@...> wrote:
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Tom Miller
Think this one will work?
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If so, it is just what I was looking for. I may need to stick a small BPF after it to clean up the unwanted stuff. Thanks for everyone's help. Tom ----- Original Message -----
From: "langlv56" <lang02@...> To: <hp_agilent_equipment@...> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [hp_agilent_equipment]Clock Doubler Design ideas I'm quite confident that the Mini Circuits MK3 is OK. |
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ArtekMedia
13 to 15 db of conversion loss is going to be a lot less than 2V out with 5V in...something on the order of 1volt out if I did the math correct .1 volt however may still be sufficient to drive the reference lines of many instruments. A small tuned amp to clean things up would get you back to where you want to be. Plus I just noticed this thing is rated max 200MW in and 5V Square wave into 50 ohms is closer to 500mw if I did the math right ...but check my math I haven't had my slide rule out since 1969. So maybe you pad the input and put a few more dB's in a small driver amp.
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Is your 5MHz square wave "that good" a frequency reference? I would hold out for a 10 MHz GPS disciplined Oscillator not a lot of money if your patient although the plethora Z3801's which were on the market a few years back have become amazingly scarce. Dave & Lynn Henderson ArtekMedia Out-of-Print Technical Manuals www.ArtekMedia.com manuals@... 651-269-4265 Tom Miller wrote: Think this one will work? |
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Tom Miller
20 dB loss would be about 1/2 volt. The power is ok at about 1/8 watt. 5 V pp is 2.5 V rms ^2 is 6.25/50 = .125 watt. right?
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"slide rule" ??? what is that? :) The 5 MBPS is from a GPS disciplined rubidium clock (Trak). It has 4 buffered 5MBPS ports and one 10 MHz sine port but can't take much loading. I was thinking of getting a cheap video DA which should be good at 10 MHz. Tom ----- Original Message -----
From: "ArtekMedia" <manuals@...> To: <hp_agilent_equipment@...> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [hp_agilent_equipment]Clock Doubler Design ideas 13 to 15 db of conversion loss is going to be a lot less than 2V out with 5V in...something on the order of 1volt out if I did the math correct .1 volt however may still be sufficient to drive the reference lines of many instruments. A small tuned amp to clean things up would get you back to where you want to be. Plus I just noticed this thing is rated max 200MW in and 5V Square wave into 50 ohms is closer to 500mw if I did the math right ...but check my math I haven't had my slide rule out since 1969. So maybe you pad the input and put a few more dB's in a small driver amp. Is your 5MHz square wave "that good" a frequency reference? I would hold out for a 10 MHz GPS disciplined Oscillator not a lot of money if your patient although the plethora Z3801's which were on the market a few years back have become amazingly scarce. Dave & Lynn Henderson ArtekMedia Out-of-Print Technical Manuals www.ArtekMedia.com manuals@... 651-269-4265 Tom Miller wrote: Think this one will work? ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links |
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David C. Partridge
"slide rule" ??? what is that? :)Something that allows you to do the same thngs you can do with a calculator, only often faster, and teaches you about order of magnitudes too, so that when you do use a calculator or computer, you can tell when the darn thing is lying to you!!! :-) :-) D. |
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Tom Miller
I use the calculator with the big numbers now.
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:) :) Tom ----- Original Message -----
From: "David C. Partridge" <david.partridge@...> To: <hp_agilent_equipment@...> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 3:02 PM Subject: RE: [hp_agilent_equipment]Clock Doubler Design ideas "slide rule" ??? what is that? :)Something that allows you to do the same thngs you can do with a calculator, only often faster, and teaches you about order of magnitudes too, so that when you do use a calculator or computer, you can tell when the darn thing is lying to you!!! :-) :-) D. ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Also teaches you to find thinks instinctively, like the square root of commonly used values, squares and cubes of various values, and to think logarithmically.
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I did find the books of logs and trig functions a bit cumbersome -- I used the same books of tables my father used before WW-II and none of the values had changed! My slide rule was (is)ivory on bamboo from "Occupied Japan" which he got in the Navy after the war. Much slicker than the vinyl ones which came out in the 1960's. --- In hp_agilent_equipment@..., "David C. Partridge" <david.partridge@...> wrote:
"slide rule" ??? what is that? :)Something that allows you to do the same thngs you can do with a calculator, |
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billw77aaz
--- In hp_agilent_equipment@..., "David C. Partridge" <david.partridge@...> wrote:
"slide rule" ??? what is that? :)Something that allows you to do the same thngs you can do with a calculator, only often faster, and teaches you about order of magnitudes too, so that when you do use a calculator or computer, you can tell when the darn thing is lying to you!!! Actually THINK about numbers? Question a calculator? Revolutionary concepts today. I taught junior college math for some years. You'd be amazed the number of students, when asked "what is three divided by six?" will INSIST the answer is TWO. And those from the high school honors class were all proud of their graphing TI calculators. When told I didn't care much what the numerical answer was on tests, but no calculators were permitted, you'd also be amazed at the number who would withdraw to take a brain dead version of the class from someone else. |
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J. Forster
I taught thermodynamics for a while. When we discussed small steam
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turbines, sort of coffee can dimensions, a number of them said with great confidence it put out 4,891,482.078 horsepower because their calculator. They were off by 1,000,000 times. The sad thing is they never even thought about whether it was even a remotely possible answer. SIGH, -John ============ --- In hp_agilent_equipment@..., "David C. Partridge" |
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I never have used a slide rule. (I'm to young I guess) But it looks like a fascinating thing. I have no clue how they work but I would love to learn it if it makes math more "visual" or logical because I love math but Iḿ very bad at it. Is there just one type or more types ? like with calculators (some have statistics or complex values. On a ham fest there was one for sale and a friend who studied math at the university wanted to have one but they asked 50 euro's for it. (he's blind so I wondered why he wanted one :-) ) .
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Fred --- In hp_agilent_equipment@..., "J. Forster" <jfor@...> wrote:
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ArtekMedia
Yes but as I recall you are starting with a SQUARE wave ...not a sine wave. more power in Square wave where Vrms = Vpk as I recall.
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All in all if you already have 10 MHz seems to me much easier to build (or buy surplus) 10 MHz distribution amp You can get an 461A for less than $30 as an example, Application assuming 5V pk?? Dave & Lynn Henderson ArtekMedia Out-of-Print Technical Manuals www.ArtekMedia.com manuals@... 651-269-4265 Tom Miller wrote: 20 dB loss would be about 1/2 volt. The power is ok at about 1/8 watt. 5 V pp is 2.5 V rms ^2 is 6.25/50 = .125 watt. right? |
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billw77aaz
--- In hp_agilent_equipment@..., "fredschneider2001" <fredschneider@...> wrote:
The basic idea is simple: as you know log(A) + log(B) = log(A * B). Two sticks are scaled for N=1-10 with the logarithm of of N. So if you slide the sticks so the "1" at the end of the upper stick (either end) is on number A of the lower stick, you can read the product on the lower stick under number B on the upper stick. You are adding the log-scaled lengths by sliding the ruler, and reading the sum of the two lengths from the other ruler. The fly in the ointment is if the numbers, for example, are 3 and 6, then the mark underneath "6" is "1.8". YOU must know the 3*6 is more than ten, and less than 100, to get the correct answer of 18. So the sliderule forces you to think about "orders of magnitude", makes you THINK about the numbers and the answer you're getting. The properties that accrue from logarithms permit other calculations, so complex slide rules have scales where 1-10 is spread over two seperate scales, the first 1-3.16, the other 3.16-10 so you can read square roots, three seperate scales for 1-10 to read cube roots. Scales that go from pi to ten times pi to make circular calculations, or frequency to 2*pi*frequency switches. I remember the trick slide rule when I was in school was "log-log-duplex-decitrig". a scale has the left end starting at 1, the right end ends at 10. Marks are placed on that scale at log(N) where N=1 to 10. Two such identically marked scales slide past each other. If you want to multiply 6 times 3, for example, you place either the left end or the right "1" of the top scale at the first digit (either one since 3*6 = 6*3) on the bottom scale. Then you look at the other digit on the first scale and you will see that that mark is lined up on "1.8" of the lower scale. This works because the length to the digit 6, plus the length of digit 3 are being added by your positioning of the "sticks". And because <length> log(6) + <length> log(3) = legnth log(3*6) the. It does not keep track of decimal point, so it forces you to think about how big the numbers are. |
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Dave Brown
Fred
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Join up here- Well worth it. DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message -----
From: "fredschneider2001" <fredschneider@...> To: <hp_agilent_equipment@...> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:39 AM Subject: Re: [hp_agilent_equipment]Clock Doubler Design ideas I never have used a slide rule. (I'm to young I guess) But it looks like a fascinating thing. I have no clue how they work but I would love to learn it if it makes math more "visual" or logical because I love math but Iḿ very bad at it. Is there just one type or more types ? like with calculators (some have statistics or complex values. On a ham fest there was one for sale and a friend who studied math at the university wanted to have one but they asked 50 euro's for it. (he's blind so I wondered why he wanted one :-) ) . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.99/2372 - Release Date: 09/15/09 05:59:00 |
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----- Original Message -----
From: "fredschneider2001" <fredschneider@...> To: <hp_agilent_equipment@...> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [hp_agilent_equipment]Clock Doubler Design ideas I never have used a slide rule. (I'm to young I guess) But it looks like a fascinating thing. I have no clue how they work but I would love to learn it if it makes math more "visual" or logical because I love math but Iḿ very bad at it. Is there just one type or more types ? like with calculators (some have statistics or complex values. On a ham fest there was one for sale and a friend who studied math at the university wanted to have one but they asked 50 euro's for it. (he's blind so I wondered why he wanted one :-) ) .There are a couple of web sites dedicated to slide rules and at least one has an instruction book. When I learned to use one I was taught to do enough of the calculation in my head to place the decimal point. I think some calculator users just believe what ever the thing says without thinking about whether it makes any sense as is pointed out by John. They are not difficult to use and used ones are not expensive. -- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles WB6KBL dickburk@... |
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2009/9/16 billw77aaz <w7aaz@...>
I taught junior college math for some years. You'd be amazed the number of students, when asked "what is three divided by six?" will INSIST the answer is TWO. And those from the high school honors class were all proud of their graphing TI calculators.Or you ask them what's 'two plus three times six', somehow algebra seems to be lost on them when it's just numbers and no letters. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. |
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A slide rule was often called a guessing stick due to the degree of
accuracy that can be obtained from the results. At my school we used log tables and the ones of us that had parents who could afford slide rules had to write '(slide rule)' against our answers as they were only good to about 3 to 4 significant digits, dependant upon where the answer appeared on the slide. Like using log tables it really teaches you how to think about numbers properly and to estimate so you KNOW the ball park where the answer lies. I love them and have a wee little collection that I have built up over there years. One thing, they will never run out of battery/mains power and EMP is never going to affect them. The wooden ones may eventually die if kept in bad conditions (mine work as good as new) and the plastic ones are likely to last forever. Just get one and play with it. You'll need pencil and paper too (unless your good at mental arithmetic), slide rules don't add and subtract but that's easy to do right. People who have grown up in the days of calculators and computers don't seem to have the same understanding of maths that the older people do. My Mum is 82 and she seldom uses a calculator but your see her do basic arithmetic on paper. Can't seem to get her to use a pencil though :-) Cheers, Steve 2009/9/16 fredschneider2001 <fredschneider@...>
-- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. |
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