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Hi all ?Regarding 1 mw lab calibration
I am looking for comparisons between the old and trusted? HP 432A? the replacement
N 432A and the Tegam 1830A and I was wondering if anyone hear Can give any feedback on the Tegam 1830A ?compared to the new N 432A
?
Also is there a report comparing the 3 meters?
?
Regards Paul
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Ing. Patricio A. Greco
Taller Aeronáutico de Reparación 1B-349
Organización de Mantenimiento?Aeronáutico de la Defensa OMAD-001
Laboratorio de Calibración ISO 17025?AREA: RF/MW?
Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557
F: +5411-4032-0072
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On 23 Apr 2025, at 14:01, Paul Bicknell via < admin@...> wrote:
Hi all ?Regarding 1 mw lab calibration I am looking for comparisons between the old and trusted? HP 432A? the replacement N 432A and the Tegam 1830A and I was wondering if anyone hear Can give any feedback on the Tegam 1830A ?compared to the new N 432A ? Also is there a report comparing the 3 meters? ? Regards Paul
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Thank you Patricio?? for the functional comparison ? Do you know the new cost of the Keysight? N432A? and the? Tegam 1830A as I think I will be looking for a second user one soon ? Paul ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Patricio A. Greco via groups.io
Sent: 23 April 2025 18:23
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration? Ing. Patricio A. Greco
Taller Aeronáutico de Reparación 1B-349
Organización de Mantenimiento?Aeronáutico de la Defensa OMAD-001
Laboratorio de Calibración ISO 17025?AREA: RF/MW?
Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557
F: +5411-4032-0072
On 23 Apr 2025, at 14:01, Paul Bicknell via <admin@...> wrote: ? Hi all? Regarding 1 mw lab calibration I am looking for comparisons between the old and trusted? HP 432A? the replacement N 432A and the Tegam 1830A and I was wondering if anyone hear Can give any feedback on the Tegam 1830A? compared to the new N 432A ? Also is there a report comparing the 3 meters? ?
?
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In my lab I use 432A with a 6,5 digit multimeter and works very good with the measurement procedure described on user manual .I modified it to have a third Rb value of 300Ω . With the advantage that you can calibrate the unit on site using the calibrator . Calibration of N432A are made on factory only. N432A are USD 15K range and Tegam on 7K range…?
Ing. Patricio A. Greco
Taller Aeronáutico de Reparación 1B-349
Organización de Mantenimiento?Aeronáutico de la Defensa OMAD-001
Laboratorio de Calibración ISO 17025?AREA: RF/MW?
Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557
F: +5411-4032-0072
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On 23 Apr 2025, at 14:33, Paul Bicknell via < admin@...> wrote:
Thank you Patricio?? for the functional comparison? ? Do you know the new cost of the Keysight? N432A? and the? Tegam 1830A as I think I will be looking for a second user one soon? ? Paul? ? ? Ing. Patricio A. Greco
Taller Aeronáutico de Reparación 1B-349
Organización de Mantenimiento?Aeronáutico de la Defensa OMAD-001
Laboratorio de Calibración ISO 17025?AREA: RF/MW?
Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557
F: +5411-4032-0072
On 23 Apr 2025, at 14:01, Paul Bicknell via ??< admin@...> wrote: ? Hi all? Regarding 1 mw lab calibration I am looking for comparisons between the old and trusted? HP 432A? the replacement N 432A and the Tegam 1830A and I was wondering if anyone hear Can give any feedback on the Tegam 1830A? compared to the new N 432A ? Also is there a report comparing the 3 meters?? ?
?
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On Wed, Apr 23, 2025 at 10:33 AM, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Thank you Patricio?? for the functional comparison
?
It's what Gemini, or ChatGTP? outputs.
If you use different prompts, you get slightly different results.
And? they will, and do. contradict themselves, and each other.
You always need to go through the sources.
?
AFAIK... the Tegam 1830A does not have GPIB?
But ... AFAIK... both N432A and Tegam 1830A? have USB, and Ethernet
?
AFA price goes... both are ex... pensive... especially new.
Keysight N432A... with sensor, and some options... about 17,000USD, from Keysight
If the Tegam stuff is less expensive, Tegam is not going out of there way to say what the price is... AFAICT.... except for their cables, on Mouser... they are only giving out quotes.
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I know people that has N432A , its great but the return to factory calibration is a problem. Specially living in Argentina. 432A with multimeter works very good and the interfase problem are solved via multimeter interfase. There are R/S thermoelectric power sensors that works very good as standard too.
?
Ing. Patricio A. Greco
Taller Aeronáutico de Reparación 1B-349
Organización de Mantenimiento?Aeronáutico de la Defensa OMAD-001
Laboratorio de Calibración ISO 17025?AREA: RF/MW?
Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557
F: +5411-4032-0072
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On Wed, Apr 23, 2025 at 10:33 AM, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Thank you Patricio?? for the functional comparison
?
It's what Gemini, or ChatGTP? outputs.
If you use different prompts, you get slightly different results.
And? they will, and do. contradict themselves, and each other.
You always need to go through the sources.
?
AFAIK... the Tegam 1830A does not have GPIB?
But ... AFAIK... both N432A and Tegam 1830A? have USB, and Ethernet
?
AFA price goes... both are ex... pensive... especially new.
Keysight N432A... with sensor, and some options... about 17,000USD, from Keysight
If the Tegam stuff is less expensive, Tegam is not going out of there way to say what the price is... AFAICT.... except for their cables, on Mouser... they are only giving out quotes.
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Hi Roy,
The prices are as following for the two power meters:
- Keysight N432A is USD 16,048.00
- Tegam 1830A is USD 6,495.00
Cables and other accessories are bought separately.
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On 23/04/2025 22:16, Roy Thistle via groups.io wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2025 at 10:33 AM, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Thank you Patricio?? for the functional comparison
It's what Gemini, or ChatGTP? outputs.
If you use different prompts, you get slightly different results.
And? they will, and do. contradict themselves, and each other.
You always need to go through the sources.
AFAIK... the Tegam 1830A does not have GPIB?
But ... AFAIK... both N432A and Tegam 1830A? have USB, and Ethernet
AFA price goes... both are ex... pensive... especially new.
Keysight N432A... with sensor, and some options... about 17,000USD, from Keysight
If the Tegam stuff is less expensive, Tegam is not going out of there way to say what the price is... AFAICT.... except for their cables, on Mouser... they are only giving out quotes.
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In my opinion, the most uncertainty will lie with the 478A sensor and its limitations at 50 MHz rather than with the meters themselves. I'm not sure the old 432A meter itself is the weak link here especially if you use DC substitution via a calibrated >5 digit DVM.?
?
In my experience, you have to be careful using the standard 478A thermistor sensor at 50 MHz as the VSWR begins to creep up below about 70 MHz and there may also be a subtle wiggle in the return loss near 50 MHz.
?
This can very slightly affect the efficiency of the sensor where there is a wiggle as it becomes frequency dependent throughout the bandwidth of the wiggle. If you then factor in that the sensor efficiency of a 478A has to be known accurately if you want to use it for metrology then this system isn't ideal if you want to do this stuff outside a calibration lab at 50 MHz.
?
The best performance will come from a special (option) version of the 478A sensor that has low VSWR at 50 MHz and has known efficiency at 50 MHz.?
?
Despite all this I do still check my 0dBm 50 MHz source using a 432A and a 478A sensor every year or so here at home and I use the DC substitution method with a 6.5 digit DVM. I get very repeatable results. So I think the efficiency of the sensor is very stable vs time as I've had this 478A sensor for over 30 years now :)
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There are an special sensor to use as reference on 50MHz 478A H76 . It has very low SWR and very accurate cal factor at 50MHz. this is the best standard you can have at lab. if you take care can reach to 0,25% of accuracy. ??
Regards, Patricio.?
Ing. Patricio A. Greco
Taller Aeronáutico de Reparación 1B-349
Organización de Mantenimiento?Aeronáutico de la Defensa OMAD-001
Laboratorio de Calibración ISO 17025?AREA: RF/MW?
Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557
F: +5411-4032-0072
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On 23 Apr 2025, at 17:34, jmr via < jmrhzu@...> wrote:
In my opinion, the most uncertainty will lie with the 478A sensor and its limitations at 50 MHz rather than with the meters themselves. I'm not sure the old 432A meter itself is the weak link here especially if you use DC substitution via a calibrated >5 digit DVM.?
?
In my experience, you have to be careful using the standard 478A thermistor sensor at 50 MHz as the VSWR begins to creep up below about 70 MHz and there may also be a subtle wiggle in the return loss near 50 MHz.
?
This can very slightly affect the efficiency of the sensor where there is a wiggle as it becomes frequency dependent throughout the bandwidth of the wiggle. If you then factor in that the sensor efficiency of a 478A has to be known accurately if you want to use it for metrology then this system isn't ideal if you want to do this stuff outside a calibration lab at 50 MHz.
?
The best performance will come from a special (option) version of the 478A sensor that has low VSWR at 50 MHz and has known efficiency at 50 MHz.?
?
Despite all this I do still check my 0dBm 50 MHz source using a 432A and a 478A sensor every year or so here at home and I use the DC substitution method with a 6.5 digit DVM. I get very repeatable results. So I think the efficiency of the sensor is very stable vs time as I've had this 478A sensor for over 30 years now :)
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The standard 478A can be converted to the H75 option by replacing capacitors C1 and C2 with 0.1uF ones.
This will make it the H75 version and will be limited to 10MHz-1GHz and SWR at 50MHz will be around 1.05
One capacitor is in the connector assembly and one is on the thermistor assembly.
I don't know which values were used for the H76 option. I never saw a service manual for it.
Paul already uploaded the H75 manual in the Files area which has the info above.
Best would be to buy a used 478A H75/H76 and have it sent for calibration to NIST but that will cost around USD 5000 to 7000 from what I saw on their website.
If I am not mistaken NIST is using a submerged microcalorimeter which I think no other labs have that.
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On 23/04/2025 22:42, Patricio A. Greco via groups.io wrote: There are an special sensor to use as reference on 50MHz 478A H76 . It has very low SWR and very accurate cal factor at 50MHz. this is the best standard you can have at lab. if you take care can reach to 0,25% of accuracy.
Regards, Patricio.
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You can get a standards lab calibration on the H series 478's from KT for considerably less than NIST.? They (KT) does a direct comparison against the standards that they've sent to NIST which saves you a LOT of money.? The last time I sent KT a 478A-H75, the
cost was only 600.? As long as the sensor you send them is an "H" option, you can get whatever H calibration you? want so you can choose the data points you want data on.? That was about 6ish years ago so I'm sure that the price has gone up.
Richard
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The standard 478A can be converted to the H75 option by replacing
capacitors C1 and C2 with 0.1uF ones.
This will make it the H75 version and will be limited to 10MHz-1GHz and
SWR at 50MHz will be around 1.05
One capacitor is in the connector assembly and one is on the thermistor
assembly.
I don't know which values were used for the H76 option. I never saw a
service manual for it.
Paul already uploaded the H75 manual in the Files area which has the
info above.
Best would be to buy a used 478A H75/H76 and have it sent for
calibration to NIST but that will cost around USD 5000 to 7000 from what
I saw on their website.
If I am not mistaken NIST is using a submerged microcalorimeter which I
think no other labs have that.
On 23/04/2025 22:42, Patricio A. Greco via groups.io wrote:
> There are an special sensor to use as reference on 50MHz 478A H76 . It
> has very low SWR and very accurate cal factor at 50MHz. this is the best
> standard you can have at lab. if you take care can reach to 0,25% of
> accuracy.
>
> Regards, Patricio.
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Hi Razvan
Thank you for the prices of the two power meters at $16 K for the Keysight N432A compared to the $6.5 K for the Tegam 1830 I think I will be looking closer at the for the Tegam 1830
Just have to investigate how you recalibrate the Tegam 1830 without returning it to the factory
Regards Paul
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Razvan Popescu via groups.io Sent: 23 April 2025 21:34 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration Hi Roy, The prices are as following for the two power meters: - Keysight N432A is USD 16,048.00 - Tegam 1830A is USD 6,495.00 Cables and other accessories are bought separately. On 23/04/2025 22:16, Roy Thistle via groups.io wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2025 at 10:33 AM, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Thank you Patricio for the functional comparison
It's what Gemini, or ChatGTP outputs.
If you use different prompts, you get slightly different results.
And they will, and do. contradict themselves, and each other.
You always need to go through the sources.
AFAIK... the Tegam 1830A does not have GPIB?
But ... AFAIK... both N432A and Tegam 1830A have USB, and Ethernet
AFA price goes... both are ex... pensive... especially new.
Keysight N432A... with sensor, and some options... about 17,000USD,
from Keysight If the Tegam stuff is less expensive, Tegam is not going
out of there way to say what the price is... AFAICT.... except for
their cables, on Mouser... they are only giving out quotes.
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Hi Paul,
I attached the comparison chart from Advanced Energy web site. You can also see the price at the end of the PDF for each meter.
If you buy the Tegam 1830 maybe you can make a review for it. I am interested about the capabilities of this power meter :)
Another thing to note is that Tegam (now Advanced Energy) will not provide you with any support if you don't buy the unit directly from them. Make sure you can get the firmware files before buying the unit.
There were many firmware revisions released for 1830A since it was launched 15 years ago or more.
Regards,
Razvan
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On 24/04/2025 19:29, Paul Bicknell via groups.io wrote: Hi Razvan
Thank you for the prices of the two power meters at $16 K for the Keysight N432A compared to the $6.5 K for the Tegam 1830 I think I will be looking closer at the for the Tegam 1830
Just have to investigate how you recalibrate the Tegam 1830 without returning it to the factory
Regards Paul
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Razvan Thank you?
?
I have Just uploaded all the information i have for the HP 478A to the HP 478A? file?
I have just created a new file for Power Sensors ?Meters 1 mw ?reference and uploaded all the information i have on the subject?
?
regards Paul?
?
?
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OK I have ?filed in the Tegam? on line request only for them to come back asking about end user and how many I want? My response was I am the end user and only want the price for 1 unit ? I have recently bought for about 450 euros a NEW old stock HP478A? option H72?? 1 to 1000 MHz but unfortunately it does not have a calibration chart on the side any suggestions welcome It is marked as Air force metrology and calibration program ? Base Measurement Standard Also I assume the difference between the H72 and the H75? is the H75 is selected for its lower SWR at 50 MHz ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roy Thistle via groups.io
Sent: 24 April 2025 20:12
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration ? On Wed, Apr 23, 2025 at 01:33 PM, Razvan Popescu wrote: Cables and other accessories are bought separately.
AFAICT...? Keysight shows 16K USD ...for the meter, cable, sensor, and support package... so all inclusive... at least in this part of North America. Not sure about the Tegam ... as you have to 'phone home' for the price... because everyone is special?
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Hi Paul,
Thanks for the extra bits. I just downloaded them.
I have one more document which in fact you uploaded it but it is the Keysight version.
I have the original HP REV B from 1995 for the H75 option. I attached it to this email.
Best regards,
Razvan
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On 24/04/2025 20:46, Paul Bicknell via groups.io wrote: Razvan Thank you
I have Just uploaded all the information i have for the HP 478A to the HP 478A? file
I have just created a new file for Power Sensors ?Meters 1 mw ?reference and uploaded all the information i have on the subject
regards Paul
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Thank you I have read that the normal calibration setting is 99% and the document you have just sent me also has 99% as the setting
Just for interest how much do the H options cost new at today's cost
Paul
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Razvan Popescu via groups.io Sent: 24 April 2025 20:38 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration Hi Paul, Thanks for the extra bits. I just downloaded them. I have one more document which in fact you uploaded it but it is the Keysight version. I have the original HP REV B from 1995 for the H75 option. I attached it to this email. Best regards, Razvan On 24/04/2025 20:46, Paul Bicknell via groups.io wrote: Razvan Thank you
I have Just uploaded all the information i have for the HP 478A to the
HP 478A file I have just created a new file for Power Sensors Meters
1 mw reference and uploaded all the information i have on the subject
regards Paul
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Hi Roy,
From what I see it is including the adapter cable but not the sensor.
See the screenshot attached, this is what I see when I try to order it and I am on the USA site. Do you see the sensor included when you try to order it?
Regards,
Razvan
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On 24/04/2025 21:12, Roy Thistle via groups.io wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2025 at 01:33 PM, Razvan Popescu wrote:
Cables and other accessories are bought separately.
AFAICT...? Keysight shows 16K USD ...for the meter, cable, sensor, and support package... so all inclusive... at least in this part of North America.
Not sure about the Tegam ... as you have to 'phone home' for the price... because everyone is special?
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The bolometers ( cared units) maintains his cal factor for several years its very stable there are a lot of papers about it. Send to calibration would be more expensive than the sensor price…?
Regards, Patricio.?
Ing. Patricio A. Greco
Taller Aeronáutico de Reparación 1B-349
Organización de Mantenimiento?Aeronáutico de la Defensa OMAD-001
Laboratorio de Calibración ISO 17025?AREA: RF/MW?
Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557
F: +5411-4032-0072
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On 24 Apr 2025, at 16:35, Paul Bicknell via < admin@...> wrote:
OK I have ?filed in the Tegam? on line request only for them to come back asking about end user and how many I want?? My response was I am the end user and only want the price for 1 unit? ? I have recently bought for about 450 euros a NEW old stock HP478A? option H72?? 1 to 1000 MHz but unfortunately it does not have a calibration chart on the side any suggestions welcome It is marked as? Air force metrology and calibration program ? Base Measurement Standard
Also I assume the difference between the H72 and the H75? is the H75 is selected for its lower SWR at 50 MHz? ? ? On Wed, Apr 23, 2025 at 01:33 PM, Razvan Popescu wrote: Cables and other accessories are bought separately.
AFAICT...? Keysight shows 16K USD ...for the meter, cable, sensor, and support package... so all inclusive... at least in this part of North America. Not sure about the Tegam ... as you have to 'phone home' for the price... because everyone is special?
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there is a lot of information in the new file
Power Sensors - Meters - 1 mw ?reference
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Paul Bicknell
Patricio A. Greco
