There is no high band on the 8560E.? It covers 0-2.9Ghz only, in one band.
--John Gord

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 03:41 AM, Askild wrote:

Ok, but if the generator goes to 3GHz, you might just be within the high band. My 8562A has high band from 2.75GHz (low band is up to 2.9GHz). It has coax relay between high and low, so it doesn't sweep across, you have to select either low or high band, so that's why there is an overlap..

?

You might also use another spectrum analyser,? if it has 1st lo-out, that will most likely be in the 3-8GHz range 0, so then set it to zero span, just be aware, the level will be around 15dbm.

?

Askild

On Sun, 14 Apr 2019, 12:01 Dave Ireland, <mirrors@...> wrote:

Askild

?

Unfortunately the signal generator I have goes to 3GHz and also the Spectrum Analyser also only goes to 3GHz (found an Anritsu Spectrum Master I forgot was a SA as well).

?

I did inject 310.7MHz at -31dBm into the third mixer I get a trace on the screen at -32dBm.

?

Amir doesn't think that is correct but I can't find anything in the manual to what it should be, rather a complicated process of measuring RF in circuit levels which I don't have the way to do accurately at the moment. As mentioned earlier the 100MHz oscillator driver has died so I have it set up on the bench injecting 100MHz into oscillator output (50ohm point) and 600MHz into the second converter.

?

I think my focus at the moment is to get the 100MHz back and then find out why the 600MHz after the trippler and doubler is low output so I can fault find the rest of the unit with out all this other gear hanging on it. Then see If I can borrow a decent active probe.

?

Dave

?

?

On 14/04/2019 2:04 am, Askild wrote:

Hi

Do you have access to a signal generator >3GHz?

It would help a lot, because that can help you to figure out where the problem is.

So if low band is low and high band is ok, the failure is most likely low band first mixer or second converter, or any signal/power feeding them.

If both low and high band is low, the you should check the IF path, by injecting a signal into the third mixer and checking what level you get on the display, compared to what it should be compared to the service manual.

?

You might of course have more than one failure...

?

I once fixed a 8563A that had low level on only the low band, problem was in the second converter, on the pcb.

When this converter was made, the one soldering the trough hole components cut the leads after soldering, and cutting down into the solder, over the years the stress on the solderings made them break.. Would think that HP would know better.. At least when I was trained for soldering certificate, I was told this was a big NO-NO. If you did do this, you should reflow.

?

Best of luck

Askild

?

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 5:34 PM amirb <amir.borji@...> wrote:

oh, was it heating up? had you measured the bias voltage and DC current draw in that MMIC?
that usually (not always as I learned recently in repairing a R&S SME) gives you enough clue about the state the MMIC is in when you compare the values with datasheet


On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 11:02 AM, Dave Ireland wrote:

Amir

?

Haven't done much to day but I am starting to get obsessed again about the 100MHz level as when looking at the circuit third converter for the reason that might be 20dB down I realised that the local oscillator for the third converter is 300MHz derived just from the 100Mhz tripler.

?

I was just about to try injecting the 600Mhz from a sig gen and try selecting SIG ID which appears to switch in a 298MHz LO instead of the 300MHz to see if it makes up the 24dB but as fate would have it the MMIC in the 100Mhz oscillator has died and now the 300MHz has disappeared.

?

Off to order the MMIC.

?

Dave

?

?

?

On 13/04/2019 7:44 pm, amirb wrote:

When working on RF circuits only a proper RF active probe such as 85024A (ideal) or 1152A or 54701A or etc....will work
forget about passive probes unless accurate amplitude measurement is not your concern and you just want to see the signal
even for that purpose sometimes passive probes load your oscillator (depending on where you probe it) such that it stops oscillating!
The total system bandwidth (probe + scope or SA) is the key parameter.

Anyways, how do you measure the 600MHz? Do you have the proper connector (SMB or SMC i forgot) and do you measure it with 50 Ohm SA?

There are a couple of MMIC ampifiers in the final stages of the 600MHz REF, I would check them for DC bias voltage, DC current draw and? temperature to see if they are dead
of course with an active RF probe you could check their gain.

I would still focus on the mixers, for now you can just inject a 600MHz into the second converter
because if the low band mixer or the second converter is dead they are very expensive to repair or replace specially the second converter used to cost a fortune as I recall
and you might find it beyond economic repair. the 600MHz ref is easy to repair and its cheap. those MMICs can be found on ebay and they are cheap
or you might conclude that the 1st and 2nd mixers are fine and there is a problem in the IF and log amp, that is usually easy and not expensive to repair.



On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 08:11 PM, Dave Ireland wrote:

Amir

?

I think you are correct about the 100Mhz. I have become obsessed with the level without a proper method of measuring it. All the 300Mhz stuff following is working so can't be much wrong with it.

?

I am still however worried about the 600Mz level as this is being measured at the proper alignment point but another day dawns here in Australia and I have to leave it for a while.

?

Thanks for your help to date.

?

Dave

?

?

?

Sent from my Samsung GALAXY S5

-------- Original message --------
From: amirb <amir.borji@...>
Date: 13/04/2019 00:00 (GMT+08:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP8560E Low Level

I still doubt that there is anything wrong with the ref osc and 600MHz lo, really. it could be just a measurement trap.
how are you measuring those 9dBm and 17dBm in-circuit amplitudes? remember that only and only a proper RF active probe?
with careful grounding can give you the correct value. Any passive probe even the best 500MHz passive probe will give you totally out of whack values. I have been there...
even with an active probe (cap <1-2pF) still the precise point at which you measure it, is very critical. If the 100MHz is like 10dB low I am sure
you would be getting errors because the PFD will probably fail to work and the loop becomes unlocked.?

Moreover, as you explained, even when you inject 600MHz Lo from the outside your second IF is still 24dB low. That has nothing to do?
with the ref osc anymore.

another thing that puzzled me is that when you inject 310.7MHz to the third converter you get a trace at -32dBm? it should be much higher, close to -10dBm I think.
(adjust your atten to 10dB and ref level to 0dBm) How is the level of 300MHz third converter LO drive??

your 'default' noise floor is too low (it must be around -65 to -70dB as I recall from the units that I had in the past)
usually that means a mixer is not working but it can have other reasons further down the signal path

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?

Thanks Bob,

I did not know they are now charging. ? Thanks for transferring the files. ?

Dave

VE7HR?

On Apr 16, 2019, at 7:49 PM, bownes <bownes@...> wrote:

I thought I had done that some time ago, but it appears I did not.

However, transfer of groups from yahoo to , which was free in the past, now requires a $110 fee (you must upgrade to premium for the first year), which, were I to have had to pay for all the groups I've transferred/created, would be over $1k at this point.

So, I'm sad to say I won't cough up the $110, however, I have created a new group, xfered all the files, and as soon as the new group is approved by , you all will be able to subscribe to it at [email protected]. As soon as it is approved, I'll post to the yahoo group and invite all the current members of the yahoo hp_70000 group and post a 'We've Moved' note.

Bob

Bob

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 9:05 PM Dave Miller <ve7hr@...> wrote:

Someone should migrate to to

Dave

VE7HR?

On Apr 16, 2019, at 4:33 PM, Paul Bicknell <paul@...> wrote:

Hi all the HP70000 users are also on this group but when things get specific the HP70000 users group is used

?

---

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave Miller
Sent: 16 April 2019 22:35
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Keypad for 70820A module

?

and last activity on the HP70000 users group is December 2015 ;-(

Thanks for the link I have subscribed

Dave

?

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:26 PM Ed Breya via Groups.Io <edbreya=[email protected]> wrote:

Paul wrote:
"Hi Ed? are you saying the 70820 will work at? 50 Ghz ?"

No, I couldn't remember what the official spec was, but it was somewhere up there. The point was that you need the higher grade cables and connectors to attain full performance, but lesser ones are OK for lesser needs.

BTW this brings up an interesting question. Just how high can a sampling scope go, and still be considered to "work?" With an analog scope you can spec the 3 dB bandwidth or risetime, and expect it to roll off gradually above, but it's still usable for some things, until too much detail is lost, the amplitude level is too low to interpret, or the triggering craps out. With a sampler, I would expect similar behavior, except that at some point aliasing also starts to show and mess it up even more.

Using a more generous definition of "work," I'd guess that at room temperature environment, the 70820A would be able to show an "acceptable" sine wave display up to 50-60 GHz. It would have to be a sine wave regardless of input wave shape, or it would have to be all aliased-up.

If anyone can readily look at this, it may be interesting to see what happens beyond the specs.

Ed

--

72 de Dave

VE7HR

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG -
Version: 2016.0.8048 / Virus Database: 4793/15884 - Release Date: 08/14/18
Internal Virus Database is out of date.

Someone should migrate to to

Dave

VE7HR?

On Apr 16, 2019, at 4:33 PM, Paul Bicknell <paul@...> wrote:

Hi all the HP70000 users are also on this group but when things get specific the HP70000 users group is used

?

---

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave Miller
Sent: 16 April 2019 22:35
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Keypad for 70820A module

?

and last activity on the HP70000 users group is December 2015 ;-(

Thanks for the link I have subscribed

Dave

?

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:26 PM Ed Breya via Groups.Io <edbreya=[email protected]> wrote:

Paul wrote:
"Hi Ed? are you saying the 70820 will work at? 50 Ghz ?"

No, I couldn't remember what the official spec was, but it was somewhere up there. The point was that you need the higher grade cables and connectors to attain full performance, but lesser ones are OK for lesser needs.

BTW this brings up an interesting question. Just how high can a sampling scope go, and still be considered to "work?" With an analog scope you can spec the 3 dB bandwidth or risetime, and expect it to roll off gradually above, but it's still usable for some things, until too much detail is lost, the amplitude level is too low to interpret, or the triggering craps out. With a sampler, I would expect similar behavior, except that at some point aliasing also starts to show and mess it up even more.

Using a more generous definition of "work," I'd guess that at room temperature environment, the 70820A would be able to show an "acceptable" sine wave display up to 50-60 GHz. It would have to be a sine wave regardless of input wave shape, or it would have to be all aliased-up.

If anyone can readily look at this, it may be interesting to see what happens beyond the specs.

Ed

--

72 de Dave

VE7HR

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG -
Version: 2016.0.8048 / Virus Database: 4793/15884 - Release Date: 08/14/18
Internal Virus Database is out of date.

Paul wrote:
"Hi Ed? are you saying the 70820 will work at? 50 Ghz ?"

No, I couldn't remember what the official spec was, but it was somewhere up there. The point was that you need the higher grade cables and connectors to attain full performance, but lesser ones are OK for lesser needs.

BTW this brings up an interesting question. Just how high can a sampling scope go, and still be considered to "work?" With an analog scope you can spec the 3 dB bandwidth or risetime, and expect it to roll off gradually above, but it's still usable for some things, until too much detail is lost, the amplitude level is too low to interpret, or the triggering craps out. With a sampler, I would expect similar behavior, except that at some point aliasing also starts to show and mess it up even more.

Using a more generous definition of "work," I'd guess that at room temperature environment, the 70820A would be able to show an "acceptable" sine wave display up to 50-60 GHz. It would have to be a sine wave regardless of input wave shape, or it would have to be all aliased-up.

If anyone can readily look at this, it may be interesting to see what happens beyond the specs.

Ed