Re: [hp70k] msib sniffer/injector interest query
JF, Thank you for sending the documents.
I have uploaded them here:
The interface specification?indicates that a module-based sniffer will be able to see all traffic between modules within a chassis. Traffic within a module is *not* sent over the external MSIB connectors unless it is destined (or from) a remote chassis, which significantly?reduces?the utility of an external sniffer.
Here's some more thoughts on using a 70100A as the starting point:
This above photo shows the analog board of the 70100A. This board can be removed, and a new PCB can be attached to the standoffs along the top of the module. The digital board can be left in to handle power conversion, with power being provided to the new PCB by the existing ribbon cable from the digital board.
The MSIB connector can be disconnected from the digital board, and reconnected to the new PCB. Here's a closeup:
The RFI ferrite and the MSIB connector can easily be detached and re-routed to the new PCB on the other side of the module.
If we use a Raspberry Pi zero, a USB to Ethernet adapter can be used to provide Ethernet connectivity to the front (or rear) panel. Since the MSIB connector also includes GPIB pins, it makes sense to break those out so that a USB to GPIB adapter can also be included if desired.
The PCB would thus contain the MSIB connector, glue logic to the Raspberry Pi Zero GPIO connector, a power connector, and a connector to connect to the front panel LEDs.
Any thoughts on this general approach?
Does anyone have.a CLIP for the 70100A?
Thanks,
David Slik VE7FIM
On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:08 PM David & Laura via <davidandlaura= [email protected]> wrote: JF,
Working from the MMS specification documents will accelerate this effort significantly. Can you upload the documents to the list? (or e-mail them directly and I'll upload them for you)
Thanks
David Slik VE7FIM Sorry but it is an unnecessary work : everything you look at is in the MMS_system_specs as the MMS was an open system like Tek TM500/5000 and a lot of companies (Comstron --very impressive ultrafast 4 slots synthesyzer--, Tern Technologies...) built modules for the MMS. I have most of the documents about the system and I sent all in 2014 to a guy Stewart Cobb, asking just for a feedback and prototype. No hear from him... Part of the mails with SC JF, Another interesting idea. It would actually be fairly easy to build a USB-to-MSIB interface box. The external bus is not clocked, it's done with handshaking, so any processor could implement the protocol with bit-banging. You'd need two 37-pin connectors, a bunch of RS-422 driver chips, and a microcontroller with USB. For speed, you'd want USB 2.0. There are plenty of ARM M3 microcontrollers with USB. The hardware would not be hard. Microcontroller software might be harder. The PC display end would be all software, but a lot of it. I wonder how many people would want something like that? Enough to help program it? Enough to buy one? Cheers! --Stu On Dec 17, 2014 8:30 AM, "JF PICARD" < jfphp@...> wrote: Stu Your idea about the CPLD for the bus is very interesting : bus transfers in the MMS system is governed by custom IC in the mainframe et in the plug ins, no longer supplied, and I have allready got the idea to replace these by CPLD, just an idea for me because I have no knowledge in this domain and I found nobody interested by such a project. There is perhaps a small market to offer substitute for this very special ICs. There is another very interesting subjet you will get in touch with your work : the MMS control by a PC . HP offered the 70207A/B (with various options depending of the bundled softwares and accessories : HPBasic, HPIB board...) allowing the total control of any MMS system from a PC running Windows NT. It uses an MSIB interface and a dedicated software. I am hunting it since years without any success, neither in parts nor in software... It could be a side result of your project. 73. JF On Friday, April 24, 2020, 06:27:20 AM GMT+2, Dave McGuire < mcguire@...> wrote:
? I for one think that's a fantastic idea.? I'm a heavy user of MSIB
stuff, and would love to see it extended a bit.
? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
On 4/23/20 3:59 PM, Jan de Jongh wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> While building my 3rd hp70k-mms system, I want to assess the interest in
> a project idea I've had for the past two years or so: A
> *sniffer/injector* for the hp70k module-interconnection protocol
> (*msib*). All (hardware/software) open source; this is not a commercial
> proposal (apart from e.g. cost-price PCB delivery).
>
> The very rough basic idea is to take a single-width hp70k module
> (likely, for-parts-only), strip everything inside apart from the msib
> interface and mechanical interfaces, and put inside one or more PCBs that:
>
>? * Interface with the msib bus such that 'basic bus transactions' can
>? ? be captured;
>? * Store these 'transactions' into (e.g.) a pcap file on an ssd
>? ? connected to a (say) an embedded Raspberry Pi;
>? * Transfer these 'transactions' over 1 Gbps Ethernet (copper/Fiber
>? ? Optic) from the Raspberry Pi;
>? * Interface over Ethernet both from the front and the rear;
>? * Import the pcap 'transaction' into Wireshark (on a remote machine);
>? * Interpret the 'transactions' using an hp70k-msib dissector;
>? * Perhaps add power monitoring, etc.;
>? * ...
>
>
> This would be the basic first-order requirements of the project. In
> subsequent phases, injection of messages/transactions on the bus and
> running HP calibration (HP-BASIC) software from virtualized containers
> could be implemented.
>
> *My questions:*
>
>? * Is any project already working on something like this that I can
>? ? join (I could not find any)?
>? * Would this be interesting enough to the amateur hp70k community? Is
>? ? there sufficient added value to a tool like this over merely
>? ? swapping modules in order to get things to work?
>? * Does a tool like this have the potential to increase the public
>? ? knowledge on the hp70k mms? Could it reveal calibration data? Is it
>? ? worth it?
>? * *Would anyone be willing to help?* I figure that even a first
>? ? attempt at a working prototype would take over a year, but various
>? ? components of the project (like the pcap format definition,
>? ? wireshark dissectors, web-based interfacing, RPi firmware, KiCAD PCB
>? ? design of bus interfacing, ...) could be isolated and
>? ? designed/implemented in a team-effort... Needless to say this
>? ? project would required >=4 committed enthusiast aficionados...
>
>
> Thanks in advance for your thoughts/vision on this, BR,
> Jan - pa3gyf
>
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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Re: How to check the accuracy of an HP 5342A frequency counter
I should add that the Rb would have to be assumed working properly - if it's a used, questionable one, then you need to make sure it's OK, evidenced, by a "lock" indication a while after powering up - typically a half hour or less. I see upon reading the thread again, that you apparently see similar (but not identical) frequency readings from three different instruments. They read? slightly differently from each other due to their own references, but since they are much closer to each other than the apparent 170 Hz or so difference from the Rb, I'd vote with the others, that there may be something wrong with it. Be sure to look for that lock indication.
Ed
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Re: How to check the accuracy of an HP 5342A frequency counter
The simple answer is that none of the units are right, and all of them are just fine. You need to study up in the manuals on how the instruments work, what the reference frequencies do, the difference between internal and external references, and how things should be hooked up for various situations.
If you want everything to read the same, choose any one of the available 10 MHz sources (each counter and the SA likely has a 10 MHz ref input and output on the back, and means to select what it's doing), and connect it to all the external reference inputs and signal inputs on every piece of gear. You can buffer it with the amplifier/splitter, or just tee it all together - it will probably work OK this way at 10 MHz. Then think about what's going on.
The Rb unit is probably the closest to exactly "right" in frequency, of all these pieces. You may find that the its apparent sine distortion is from not being terminated in 50 ohms, if you just look with a scope. Each independent reference source is slightly different in frequency with respect to the others, but when you use only one for all the references and signal inputs, they all should read the same. The absolute accuracy is a different story.
Ed
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Re: How to check the accuracy of an HP 5342A frequency counter
Since the SA and the two counters are not primary standards, someone down the line has adjusted them.? They all agree with one another but I'd vote for trusting the standard.? Align the counters and the SA to the standard.
Unlikely that you could set an OCXO 170 Hz out.
The OCXO in my 8566B was 76 Hz out compared to my Trimble GPSDO.? The closest I could get it was 70 Hz out.? I found a NOS OCXO and it was within 0.1 Hz after running for a couple of weeks. ?(The bad OCXO has since died after running it outside the SA.? No 10 MHz at all now.)
I'd guess the FE-5680A isn't locked.? They do sit low, then every minute or so, sweep upwards looking for lock.? I'd put the FE-5680A on the SA and watch it from cold.? See if it locks.
Orin.
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Re: How to check the accuracy of an HP 5342A frequency counter
One suggestion.? Compare to WWV and you will get your answer immediately.
Bob
On Sunday, April 26, 2020, 08:37:34 PM PDT, Bob Albert via groups.io <bob91343@...> wrote:
Since the SA and the two counters are not primary standards, someone down the line has adjusted them.? They all agree with one another but I'd vote for trusting the standard.? Align the counters and the SA to the standard.
If you can find a way to verify the standard, do that.? But a gross error is unlikely from it.
Bob
...whoops hit reply too quick! To continue, the frequency reference appears like it needs to be checked. Bob's suggestion of using your o-scope in X-Y mode is a good place to start.
Sean
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Re: How to check the accuracy of an HP 5342A frequency counter
Since the SA and the two counters are not primary standards, someone down the line has adjusted them.? They all agree with one another but I'd vote for trusting the standard.? Align the counters and the SA to the standard.
If you can find a way to verify the standard, do that.? But a gross error is unlikely from it.
Bob
...whoops hit reply too quick! To continue, the frequency reference appears like it needs to be checked. Bob's suggestion of using your o-scope in X-Y mode is a good place to start.
Sean
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Re: How to check the accuracy of an HP 5342A frequency counter
...whoops hit reply too quick! To continue, the frequency reference appears like it needs to be checked. Bob's suggestion of using your o-scope in X-Y mode is a good place to start.
Sean
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Re: How to check the accuracy of an HP 5342A frequency counter
Hi Terry,
I had to read your question over several times to make sure I understood what you're asking. Please correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like you are measuring the rubidium standard with the counters and the SA while all are also taking an external frequency reference (presumably from the same source?) If that is the case, it would seem to me that either
(1) you may have a problem with all three instruments...but the Siglent SA should be new enough that it's performing within specification I'd think...UNLESS
(2) the Rb standard is off.
Situations like this demand having a primary standard...either a 5071A caesium clock if you are really hardcore or just a good GPSDO for everything else, to compare your Rb standard to. Another really nice tool to have in your arsenal for this sort of work is a 53310A modulation domain analyzer, connected to a source of primary standard timebase. A huge benefit if the 53310A is the only external signal you need for calibration is a decently good 5V DC signal for one of the self-cal steps. It is an effective frequency microscope for aligning other equipment.
Additionally, the datasheet for your counter (here's one: ) indicates a timebase error uncertainty at 10 MHz of between 1 and 10 Hz depending on whether the unit is equipped with an oven or is just equipped with the base TCXO, respectively. I would say that aspect appears to be in spec, but the
Sean
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On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 07:34 PM, Terry Maurice wrote:
I have two of these units, one has the oven the other does not.? The two units do not read exactly the same value when fed with a signal from a 10MHz FE-5680A, rubidium frequency standard.? I am monitoring the frequency standard with the two HP units and my Siglent SSA 3021X spectrum analyzer, all units being fed from the rubidium standard through a Downeast Microwave 10-4, 10MHz amplifier and filtered 4-way divider.? The units have been on for about 5 hours before taking the readings below.?
Unit A (with crystal oven) reads 9,999,828 Hz, +/- 2 Hz; unit B reads 9,999,830 Hz, +/-2 Hz and my spectrum analyzer reads 9,999,826 Hz.? Are these values within the expected values for these older frequency counters?? Is the FE-5680A correct? I checked both HP 5342As with their internal references and both show 10MHz.? How can I know, which unit(s) are correct, or do I assume my rubidium frequency standard is off by about 170 Hz?
The FE-5680A does generate some heat when left on for prolonged periods, however, It is mounted on an aluminum heatsink and sealed inside a solid metal box, but the metal case is only slightly warm to the touch.? On my oscilloscope, the output of the rubidium standard shows a distorted wave, but once it passes through the DEM 10-4 it is a clean sine curve. ?
Any help or comments would be much appreciated.
Terry?
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Re: How to check the accuracy of an HP 5342A frequency counter
What I do is take the 10 MHz output from the counter time base (rear of unit) and compare to the rubidium 10 MHz signal on an oscilloscope X-Y display.? I adjust the counter time base to get the Lissajous pattern to be as stationary as possible.
I suspect the standard is more accurate than the counter but it needs to be checked I suppose.? This is probably where? a GPSDO comes in.? However, 170 Hz is a gross error and you shouldn't have anything near that much.? I would guess a lot less than 1 Hz if all is working properly.
Bob
On Sunday, April 26, 2020, 07:35:01 PM PDT, Terry Maurice <ve3xtm@...> wrote:
I have two of these units, one has the oven the other does not.? The two units do not read exactly the same value when fed with a signal from a 10MHz FE-5680A, rubidium frequency standard.? I am monitoring the frequency standard with the two HP units and my Siglent SSA 3021X spectrum analyzer, all units being fed from the rubidium standard through a Downeast Microwave 10-4, 10MHz amplifier and filtered 4-way divider.? The units have been on for about 5 hours before taking the readings below.?
Unit A (with crystal oven) reads 9,999,828 Hz, +/- 2 Hz; unit B reads 9,999,830 Hz, +/-2 Hz and my spectrum analyzer reads 9,999,826 Hz.? Are these values within the expected values for these older frequency counters?? Is the FE-5680A correct? I checked both HP 5342As with their internal references and both show 10MHz.? How can I know, which unit(s) are correct, or do I assume my rubidium frequency standard is off by about 170 Hz?
The FE-5680A does generate some heat when left on for prolonged periods, however, It is mounted on an aluminum heatsink and sealed inside a solid metal box, but the metal case is only slightly warm to the touch.? On my oscilloscope, the output of the rubidium standard shows a distorted wave, but once it passes through the DEM 10-4 it is a clean sine curve. ?
Any help or comments would be much appreciated.
Terry?
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Re: Semiconductor test set advice
I've tried to email the OP multiple times with questions about his rapidly burgeoning lab setup, but they never get answered. Overactive spam filter?
Sean
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On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 07:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 4/26/20 10:02 PM, Reginald Beardsley via groups.io wrote:
I'd like to get a semiconductor test set. Preferably something that will send output to a printer. rather than have to photograph a screen. I've got a Peak Atlas DCA75, but I'd like something better. Building one is appealing, but time consuming.
McGuire commented on an HP unit he uses, but I can't find the post and my email to him apparently wound up in the spam bin.
Uhh, check your own spam bin, Sparky. ;) I replied to that email,
4/24 12:05AM.
-Dave
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Re: Semiconductor test set advice
On 4/26/20 10:02 PM, Reginald Beardsley via groups.io wrote: I'd like to get a semiconductor test set. Preferably something that will send output to a printer. rather than have to photograph a screen. I've got a Peak Atlas DCA75, but I'd like something better. Building one is appealing, but time consuming.
McGuire commented on an HP unit he uses, but I can't find the post and my email to him apparently wound up in the spam bin. Uhh, check your own spam bin, Sparky. ;) I replied to that email, 4/24 12:05AM. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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How to check the accuracy of an HP 5342A frequency counter
I have two of these units, one has the oven the other does not.? The two units do not read exactly the same value when fed with a signal from a 10MHz FE-5680A, rubidium frequency standard.? I am monitoring the frequency standard with the two HP units and my Siglent SSA 3021X spectrum analyzer, all units being fed from the rubidium standard through a Downeast Microwave 10-4, 10MHz amplifier and filtered 4-way divider.? The units have been on for about 5 hours before taking the readings below.?
Unit A (with crystal oven) reads 9,999,828 Hz, +/- 2 Hz; unit B reads 9,999,830 Hz, +/-2 Hz and my spectrum analyzer reads 9,999,826 Hz.? Are these values within the expected values for these older frequency counters?? Is the FE-5680A correct? I checked both HP 5342As with their internal references and both show 10MHz.? How can I know, which unit(s) are correct, or do I assume my rubidium frequency standard is off by about 170 Hz?
The FE-5680A does generate some heat when left on for prolonged periods, however, It is mounted on an aluminum heatsink and sealed inside a solid metal box, but the metal case is only slightly warm to the touch.? On my oscilloscope, the output of the rubidium standard shows a distorted wave, but once it passes through the DEM 10-4 it is a clean sine curve. ?
Any help or comments would be much appreciated.
Terry?
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Re: Semiconductor test set advice
Reg,
I'm a bit confused.
Are you talking about curve tracers (Tek speak) or semiconductor parameter analyzers (HP speak)? Or are you talking about fittings for a network analyzer? HP did make at least one test fixture for the 8510C for characterizing RF transistors, but the catalogs it appears in mention that it requires some software that might be hard to find.
Sean
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Semiconductor test set advice
I'd like to get a semiconductor test set. Preferably something that will send output to a printer. rather than have to photograph a screen. I've got a Peak Atlas DCA75, but I'd like something better. Building one is appealing, but time consuming.
McGuire commented on an HP unit he uses, but I can't find the post and my email to him apparently wound up in the spam bin.
So what's a good choice? It "would be nice" to go up to the 2.4 GHz & 5 GHz ISM bands, but that might be out of my price range and probably is more economically handled with some bespoke DIY devices.
I'm familiar with the Tek line, but know nothing about the HP stuff.
Thanks,
Reg
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Re: Maximum depth of HP rack mountable gear?
Yeah, don't discount kitchen DIY furniture as found at places like IKEA. The wife and I redid our computer/music/scrapbooking room with kitchen cabinets rather than the office stuff about 7 years ago. IKEA had way better selection in the kitchen department than in the office department. The office stuff they offered was really lame! Of course now with the Corona Virus and working from home, my laptop computers and desk area get a lot more use!
Jim Ford
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------ Original Message ------ From: "Tam Hanna" <tamhan@...> To: [email protected]Sent: 4/24/2020 10:55:02 PM Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Maximum depth of HP rack mountable gear? Wife introduced kitchen work surfaces (Kuechenarbeitsplatte). Cheap, can be had at home improvement store, works well here.
Tam
With best regards
Tam HANNA
Enjoy electronics? Join 15k7 other followers by visiting the Crazy Electronics Lab at
On 2020. 04. 25. 7:50, John Parkins G8KVP wrote:
Hello Dave,
No nothing bad at all, just making it more difficult for ourselves.
When we moved house I took over a room for my gear, so I was able to
build benches, shelves etc as I wanted them. At first it was fine, but
I think as we all do a flat surface is for putting things on. So the
amount of available work area reduces and reduces until we're trying
to work on a large bit of gear in a space which isn't quite big
enough...... I've over come this by having a removable 'bench' which
is only put into place when I need the extra room and removed
afterwards. If it were left in place it would end up covered in stuff!
We can't help it, I think it's in all our natures to collect.
Friday, April 24, 2020, 6:53:46 PM, you wrote:
DM> On 4/24/20 12:27 PM, John Parkins G8KVP wrote:
WORKBENCH! How ever wide you make them they just aren't wide enough.
DM> Unfinished flat doors make very good workbenches. And desks, for that
DM> matter.
Why do we do this to ourselves?
DM> You say this as if there's something bad about it.
DM> -Dave
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I can speak for what HP/Agilent did for calibration of Tektronix ETE manually and using Metcal software. Most of the Metcal programs for Tektronix were written by an HP engineer thoroughly trained on Metcal, or written by Tektronix engineers.
The Metcal trained engineer would use the TEK manual cal procedure, automating the instrument and measurement where possible, or prompting the person doing the cal through the manual procedure. Other TEK ETE was done manually using the Tek
manual and cal procedure. I can speak for the 11302A mainframes and plugins, 75-125 page cal procedures. I have done cal procedures on over 50ea. 11302A and CSA803 mainframes and plugins. After the 5th one in a row your attention and focus is shot, and typically it is 40+ hrs. later in you life, definitely not my favorite instrument to calibrate, especially with the SD26 plugins.
Don Bitters
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Re: WTB: HP 8971B or advice
Be careful of bandwidth.? ?Will alter readings.? 8971 has yig filter.?
Reg,
When I worked for HP we used to use the 8970S (8970B, 8971B, 346B/C, and an RF/microwave source - 8340A/B, 8672A, or 83650B) to do NF (noise figure) measurements.? The 83631 will definitely do the job.? The 8971B is not absolutely required, but makes it a lot easier to do the NF measurement.? You simply need to have a mixer to be able to down convert the desired signal to get it in the range of the 8970.? Also, the microwave source has to have a lower NF than what you are trying to measure.
Don Bitters
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Re: WTB: HP 8971B or advice
Reg,
When I worked for HP we used to use the 8970S (8970B, 8971B, 346B/C, and an RF/microwave source - 8340A/B, 8672A, or 83650B) to do NF (noise figure) measurements. The 83631 will definitely do the job. The 8971B is not absolutely required, but makes it a lot easier to do the NF measurement. You simply need to have a mixer to be able to down convert the desired signal to get it in the range of the 8970. Also, the microwave source has to have a lower NF than what you are trying to measure.
Don Bitters
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Re: RMS voltmeter HP 3400A - what does option C61 stand for?
Leo,
I believe options prefixed with "C" meant special order and/or custom. Anyway, according to the 1978 HP annual catalog: "Opt 001 spreads out the dB scale by making it the top scale of the meter. Rear terminals in parallel with front panel terminals and linear log scale uppermost on the meter face are available on special order. (add $30)"
Sean
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On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 06:02 AM, Leo Bodnar wrote:
Somebody asked me what does Option C61 stand for in HP 3400A RMS voltmeter.
I can't remember, but I think it was something immaterial - like certification supplied or on-site service options.
Does anybody know? Please feel free to reply to that question directly if you wish.
Cheers
Leo
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Some useful HP items on the stuff event page, need an hp 85046A S parameter TS.
We found a lot of useful Hp accessories and stuck them on the annual stuff event page, you can see them here:
also lots of hard to find HP CRTs at the page bottom. if you are looking for other hp items, let me know, happy to add them to the page as we have a lot of things in storage to clear out.
we have several S-parameter test sets and normalizers we can't use, including:
8503A S-Parameter TS
35677B (75 ohm S-parameter TS)
8750A Storage Normalizer (with SA plug in)
8501A Storage Normalizer
we need to get a working 85046A and cables for our 8753A, happy to trade above items for the right widgets.
off-list is maybe best.
all the best,
walter (walter2 -at- sphere.bc.ca)
sphere research corp.
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Dave McGuire