Would it help to measure two cells in series with polarities reversed to remove the DC offset. And use a common LCR meter Like a DE5000? Obviously both would need to be at same state of charge.

Sorry for trying to help. I did not say 1000.

Mike B. Feher, N4FS

89 Arnold Blvd.

Howell NJ 07731

908-902-3831

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Peter Gottlieb via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2024 8:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Measuring the impedance of a lithium ion cell

Well a thousand in series would bring the impedance up to 10 ohms, so that's not so practical, especially with the effects of the impedance of the assembly which may exceed what I'm trying to measure.? I could make a straight string of 10 or

15 but that won't really help.? I could boost the excitation signal but was specifically asked to use a small signal.

Peter

On 12/24/2024 8:03 PM, Mike Feher via groups.io wrote:

Peter –

Initial simple thought is to put a bunch in series for the

measurement. Merry Christmas – Mike

Mike B. Feher, N4FS

89 Arnold Blvd.

Howell NJ 07731

908-902-3831

*From:*[email protected]

<[email protected]

<mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of *Peter

Gottlieb via groups.io

*Sent:* Tuesday, December 24, 2024 6:29 PM

*To:* [email protected]

<mailto:[email protected]>

*Subject:* [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Measuring the impedance of

a lithium ion cell

As part of an EMI investigation, I was asked if I could find a way to

measure the reactance of a lithium ion cell over the range of 10 kHz

to 20 MHz.? Later I will need to measure a module consisting of a

series-parallel combination of these cells.? The cells are 21700

cylindrical so will have very definite capacitive and inductive components.

The impedances will be low, in the tens of milliohms.

I am not sure how I can do this.? I tried simply hooking up to a 3577A

and test set (knowing the test set only goes down to 100 kHz) but the

cell simply looks like a short (of course).

Does anyone have any thoughts on how I can do this measurement?? I

have other gear to amplify and so forth if a custom setup is needed (likely).

Has anyone been able to make a similar measurement successfully?

Peter

< <>>

?????????? Virus-free.www.avast.com

<

campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Peter Gottlieb via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2024 8:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Measuring the impedance of a lithium ion cell

?

Well a thousand in series would bring the impedance up to 10 ohms, so that's not so practical, especially with the effects of the impedance of the assembly which may exceed what I'm trying to measure.? I could make a straight string of 10 or

15 but that won't really help.? I could boost the excitation signal but was specifically asked to use a small signal.

?

Peter

?

?

?

On 12/24/2024 8:03 PM, Mike Feher via groups.io wrote:

>?

> Peter –

>?

> Initial simple thought is to put a bunch in series for the

> measurement. Merry Christmas – Mike

>?

> Mike B. Feher, N4FS

>?

> 89 Arnold Blvd.

>?

> Howell NJ 07731

>?

> 908-902-3831

>?

> *From:*[email protected]

> <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Peter

> Gottlieb via groups.io

> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 24, 2024 6:29 PM

> *To:* [email protected]

> *Subject:* [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Measuring the impedance of

> a lithium ion cell

>?

> As part of an EMI investigation, I was asked if I could find a way to

> measure the reactance of a lithium ion cell over the range of 10 kHz

> to 20 MHz.? Later I will need to measure a module consisting of a

> series-parallel combination of these cells.? The cells are 21700

> cylindrical so will have very definite capacitive and inductive components.

>?

> The impedances will be low, in the tens of milliohms.

>?

> I am not sure how I can do this.? I tried simply hooking up to a 3577A

> and test set (knowing the test set only goes down to 100 kHz) but the

> cell simply looks like a short (of course).

>?

> Does anyone have any thoughts on how I can do this measurement?? I

> have other gear to amplify and so forth if a custom setup is needed (likely).

>?

> Has anyone been able to make a similar measurement successfully?

>?

> Peter

>?

>?

> <>

> ?????????? Virus-free.www.avast.com

> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_

> campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>

>?

>?

> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

>

?

?

?

?

Peter –

Initial simple thought is to put a bunch in series for the measurement. Merry Christmas – Mike

Mike B. Feher, N4FS

89 Arnold Blvd.

Howell NJ 07731

908-902-3831

*From:*[email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Peter Gottlieb via groups.io
*Sent:* Tuesday, December 24, 2024 6:29 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Measuring the impedance of a lithium ion cell

As part of an EMI investigation, I was asked if I could find a way to measure the reactance of a lithium ion cell over the range of 10 kHz to 20 MHz.? Later I will need to measure a module consisting of a series-parallel combination of these cells.? The cells are 21700 cylindrical so will have very definite capacitive and inductive components.

The impedances will be low, in the tens of milliohms.

I am not sure how I can do this.? I tried simply hooking up to a 3577A and test set (knowing the test set only goes down to 100 kHz) but the cell simply looks like a short (of course).

Does anyone have any thoughts on how I can do this measurement?? I have other gear to amplify and so forth if a custom setup is needed (likely).

Has anyone been able to make a similar measurement successfully?

Peter


<> Virus-free.www.avast.com <>

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

?

This is a software I made for my VNA 8753ES and 8753D.


-----Message d'origine-----
De : [email protected] <[email protected]> De la part de Peter Gottlieb via groups.io
Envoyé : 24 décembre 2024 18:58
? : [email protected]
Objet : Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8714ES - Network Analyzer - Can it be converted from 75ohm to 50?

How do you capture the screen data?

I just made a comparison between an 8753D 75 Ohms and an 8753ES while testing a filter.

Same cables, same calibration type and same calibration kit obviously.

I superimposed the two images as best I could.

The 8753D 75 Ohms uses mechanical adapters for an impedance of 50 Ohms.

It is not absolute perfection, but still very reasonable.

Red curve: ????S21 8753ES

Green curve: S11 8753ES

Blue curve: ???S21 8753D 75 Ohms

Cyan curve: ??S11 8753D 75 Ohms

The image of the 8753D 75 ohms has been superimposed on that of the 8753ES. We can barely see a few green pixels that are not hidden by the cyan curve of the 8753D 75 Ohms.

Now for a 75 Ohm 8714ET and another at 50 Ohms, I don't know if the performances will be similar...I have never made this comparison.

Yves

*De?:*[email protected] <[email protected]> *De la part de* Patricio A. Greco via groups.io
*贰苍惫辞测é?:* 24 décembre 2024 17:17
*??:* [email protected]
*Objet?:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8714ES - Network Analyzer - Can it be converted from 75ohm to 50?

I agree

Ing. Patricio A. Greco

Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557 <tel:+5411-4455-2557>
F: +5411-4032-0072 <tel:+5411-4032-0072>
www.servicios-electronicos.com <>



On 24 Dec 2024, at 18:52, Peter Gottlieb via groups.io
<hpnpilot@...> wrote:

?While not ideal, for most practical applications the accuracy and dynamic
range will be fine, and certainly far better than not having the measurements.

Peter



On 12/24/2024 4:47 PM, Patricio A. Greco via groups.io wrote:

There are an important loose in measurement acuraccy…

Ing. Patricio A. Greco

Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159

San Miguel (1663)

Buenos Aires

T: +5411-4455-2557 <tel:+5411-4455-2557>

F: +5411-4032-0072 <tel:+5411-4032-0072>

www.servicios-electronicos.com <>
<>

On 24 Dec 2024, at 17:58, Yves Tardif via groups.io
<yves_tardif@...> wrote:

?

Hi,

Your 8714ES can be calibrated in 50 Ohms, if you have a 50 Ohm kit
to do it.

But be very careful, the N-type connectors are not compatible with
50 Ohm N connectors.

You will damage the VNA connectors if you try to make a connection
of 50 Ohm connectors in 75 Ohm ones...

I have an 8712 here, and I looked for a conversion to 50 Ohms, but
the input of the couplers are really at 75 Ohms, so you can not do
a conversion without changing the directional couplers.

But another solution is to use a 75 to 50 mechanical adapter.

Expensive adapter, but it exists.

I have already done this exercise and it works very well.

There is also the minimum loss pad 75 to 50 Ohms, but you lose
dynamic range, but it works too.



Yves

*De?:*[email protected]
<[email protected]> *De la part de* Anthony
Kuzub via groups.io

*贰苍惫辞测é?:* 24 décembre 2024 15:17

*??:* [email protected]

*Objet?:* [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8714ES - Network
Analyzer - Can it be converted from 75ohm to 50?

Good day

I hope you are Ohm for the holidays!

I recently got an 8714ES - Network Analyzer - I plan on using it
for Antenna design / filter tuning and Amplifierd qualifications
for RF microphone work.

But on closer in spection it is setup and has the calibration kit
for 75ohm- (it mainly did video equipment testing)

1.Can it be converted from 75ohm to 50ohm?

2.IS there anything I can do externally to make it behave like a
50ohm device?

Thanks and Regards - I really apprecite the hivemind here.

Anthony

On 24 Dec 2024, at 18:52, Peter Gottlieb via groups.io <hpnpilot@...> wrote:

?While not ideal, for most practical applications the accuracy and dynamic range will be fine, and certainly far better than not having the measurements.

Peter



On 12/24/2024 4:47 PM, Patricio A. Greco via groups.io wrote:

There are an important loose in measurement acuraccy…

Ing. Patricio A. Greco

Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159

San Miguel (1663)

Buenos Aires

T: +5411-4455-2557 <tel:+5411-4455-2557>

F: +5411-4032-0072 <tel:+5411-4032-0072>

<>

?

On 24 Dec 2024, at 17:58, Yves Tardif via groups.io <yves_tardif@...> wrote:

?

?

?

Hi,

?

Your 8714ES can be calibrated in 50 Ohms, if you have a 50 Ohm kit to do it.

?

But be very careful, the N-type connectors are not compatible with 50 Ohm N connectors.

?

You will damage the VNA connectors if you try to make a connection of 50 Ohm connectors in 75 Ohm ones...

?

I have an 8712 here, and I looked for a conversion to 50 Ohms, but the input of the couplers are really at 75 Ohms, so you can not do a conversion without changing the directional couplers.

?

But another solution is to use a 75 to 50 mechanical adapter.

?

Expensive adapter, but it exists.

?

I have already done this exercise and it works very well.

?

There is also the minimum loss pad 75 to 50 Ohms, but you lose dynamic range, but it works too.

?

?

Yves

?

*De?:*[email protected] <[email protected]> *De la part de* Anthony Kuzub via groups.io

*贰苍惫辞测é?:* 24 décembre 2024 15:17

*??:* [email protected]

*Objet?:* [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8714ES - Network Analyzer - Can it be converted from 75ohm to 50?

?

Good day

?

I hope you are Ohm for the holidays!

?

I recently got an 8714ES - Network Analyzer - I plan on using it for Antenna design / filter tuning and Amplifierd qualifications for RF microphone work.

?

But on closer in spection it is setup and has the calibration kit for 75ohm- (it mainly did video equipment testing)

?

1.Can it be converted from 75ohm to 50ohm?

?

2.IS there anything I can do externally to make it behave like a 50ohm device?

?

Thanks and Regards - I really apprecite the hivemind here.

?

Anthony

?

On 24 Dec 2024, at 18:52, Peter Gottlieb via groups.io <hpnpilot@...> wrote:

?While not ideal, for most practical applications the accuracy and dynamic range will be fine, and certainly far better than not having the measurements.

Peter



On 12/24/2024 4:47 PM, Patricio A. Greco via groups.io wrote:

There are an important loose in measurement acuraccy…

Ing. Patricio A. Greco

Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159

San Miguel (1663)

Buenos Aires

T: +5411-4455-2557 <tel:+5411-4455-2557>

F: +5411-4032-0072 <tel:+5411-4032-0072>

www.servicios-electronicos.com <http://www.servicios-electronicos.com/>

On 24 Dec 2024, at 17:58, Yves Tardif via groups.io <yves_tardif@...> wrote:

?

Hi,

Your 8714ES can be calibrated in 50 Ohms, if you have a 50 Ohm kit to do it.

But be very careful, the N-type connectors are not compatible with 50 Ohm N connectors.

You will damage the VNA connectors if you try to make a connection of 50 Ohm connectors in 75 Ohm ones...

I have an 8712 here, and I looked for a conversion to 50 Ohms, but the input of the couplers are really at 75 Ohms, so you can not do a conversion without changing the directional couplers.

But another solution is to use a 75 to 50 mechanical adapter.

Expensive adapter, but it exists.

I have already done this exercise and it works very well.

There is also the minimum loss pad 75 to 50 Ohms, but you lose dynamic range, but it works too.

https://www.pasternack.com/n-female-n-male-straight-adapter-pe9350-p.aspx

Yves

*De?:*[email protected] <[email protected]> *De la part de* Anthony Kuzub via groups.io

*贰苍惫辞测é?:* 24 décembre 2024 15:17

*??:* [email protected]

*Objet?:* [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8714ES - Network Analyzer - Can it be converted from 75ohm to 50?

Good day

I hope you are Ohm for the holidays!

I recently got an 8714ES - Network Analyzer - I plan on using it for Antenna design / filter tuning and Amplifierd qualifications for RF microphone work.

But on closer in spection it is setup and has the calibration kit for 75ohm- (it mainly did video equipment testing)

1.Can it be converted from 75ohm to 50ohm?

2.IS there anything I can do externally to make it behave like a 50ohm device?

Thanks and Regards - I really apprecite the hivemind here.

Anthony

There are an important loose in measurement acuraccy…
Ing. Patricio A. Greco
Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557 <tel:+5411-4455-2557>
F: +5411-4032-0072 <tel:+5411-4032-0072>
www.servicios-electronicos.com <>

On 24 Dec 2024, at 17:58, Yves Tardif via groups.io <yves_tardif@...> wrote:

?

Hi,

Your 8714ES can be calibrated in 50 Ohms, if you have a 50 Ohm kit to do it.

But be very careful, the N-type connectors are not compatible with 50 Ohm N connectors.

You will damage the VNA connectors if you try to make a connection of 50 Ohm connectors in 75 Ohm ones...

I have an 8712 here, and I looked for a conversion to 50 Ohms, but the input of the couplers are really at 75 Ohms, so you can not do a conversion without changing the directional couplers.

But another solution is to use a 75 to 50 mechanical adapter.

Expensive adapter, but it exists.

I have already done this exercise and it works very well.

There is also the minimum loss pad 75 to 50 Ohms, but you lose dynamic range, but it works too.



Yves

*De?:*[email protected] <[email protected]> *De la part de* Anthony Kuzub via groups.io
*贰苍惫辞测é?:* 24 décembre 2024 15:17
*??:* [email protected]
*Objet?:* [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8714ES - Network Analyzer - Can it be converted from 75ohm to 50?

Good day

I hope you are Ohm for the holidays!

I recently got an 8714ES - Network Analyzer - I plan on using it for Antenna design / filter tuning and Amplifierd qualifications for RF microphone work.

But on closer in spection it is setup and has the calibration kit for 75ohm- (it mainly did video equipment testing)

1.Can it be converted from 75ohm to 50ohm?

2.IS there anything I can do externally to make it behave like a 50ohm device?

Thanks and Regards - I really apprecite the hivemind here.

Anthony

On 24 Dec 2024, at 17:58, Yves Tardif via groups.io <yves_tardif@...> wrote:

?

Hi,

?

Your 8714ES can be calibrated in 50 Ohms, if you have a 50 Ohm kit to do it.

But be very careful, the N-type connectors are not compatible with 50 Ohm N connectors.

You will damage the VNA connectors if you try to make a connection of 50 Ohm connectors in 75 Ohm ones...

I have an 8712 here, and I looked for a conversion to 50 Ohms, but the input of the couplers are really at 75 Ohms, so you can not do a conversion without changing the directional couplers.

?

But another solution is to use a 75 to 50 mechanical adapter.

Expensive adapter, but it exists.

I have already done this exercise and it works very well.

?

There is also the minimum loss pad 75 to 50 Ohms, but you lose dynamic range, but it works too.

?

?

?

Yves

De?: [email protected] <[email protected]> De la part de Anthony Kuzub via groups.io
贰苍惫辞测é?: 24 décembre 2024 15:17
??: [email protected]
Objet?: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8714ES - Network Analyzer - Can it be converted from 75ohm to 50?

?

Good day

I hope you are Ohm for the holidays!

I recently got an 8714ES - Network Analyzer - I plan on using it for Antenna design / filter tuning and Amplifierd qualifications for RF microphone work.

But on closer in spection it is setup and has the calibration kit for 75ohm- (it mainly did video equipment testing)

1.??? Can it be converted from 75ohm to 50ohm?

2.??? IS there anything I can do externally to make it behave like a 50ohm device?

?

Thanks and Regards - I really apprecite the hivemind here.?

?

Anthony?

On 24 Dec 2024, at 17:46, Robert G8RPI via groups.io <robert8rpi@...> wrote:

?

To convert to 50R you would have to replace the couplers, front panel connectors the cables between them.

?

Robert.