PAL misconceptions, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question
On 2/22/22 14:04, Harvey White wrote: PALs are combinational logic, such as (using address lines)? A4 and A3 and not A2 and A1 and not A0.
To decode serial data, you need flip-flops, some storage to convert serial to parallel and then act on that.
CPLD's can do that, but with most PAL chips, depending on what's internal, it would be difficult.
Generally, PALs are used to decode address lines to enable a specific chip. No. The very earliest PALs, like PAL16L8 etc, are combinatorial. But shortly thereafter, 16R8 (etc), the 'R' meaning "Registered", appeared. These are sequential logic devices that store state and have feedback terms. Still later, the 16V8 etc, (the 'V' meaning "Variable" or "Versatile", depending on who you ask) have still greater functionality. It's easy to implement something like a shift register using PALs and nothing else. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Points that way.
Harvey
On 2/22/2022 2:21 PM, Lothar baier
wrote:
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That’s what I thought so the use of a PAL
would point towards the control interface indeed being a
parallel interface and not serial
?
Sent from for Windows
?
?
PALs are combinational logic, such as (using address lines)?
A4 and A3 and not A2 and A1 and not A0.
To decode serial data, you need flip-flops, some storage to
convert serial to parallel and then act on that.
CPLD's can do that, but with most PAL chips, depending on
what's internal, it would be difficult.
Generally, PALs are used to decode address lines to enable a
specific chip.
Harvey
?
On 2/22/2022 1:26 PM, Lothar baier wrote:
I know it is labeled RS232 but
unfortunately that does not mean a regular RS232 Cable can
be used , I looked through the service manual for the 8340B
and it indicates the pin numbers on the rear panel connector
of the 8340 but it refers to control bit numbers which would
indicate a parallel port rather than serial , also the 8516
service manual indicates that the pins are connected to a
PAL on the doubler control board , I am a RF not a digital
guy but I don’t think you can use a PAL as a serial decoder
?
Sent from for Windows
?
?
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 07:20 AM, Lothar
baier wrote:
08516-60009
You might a standard RS232 cable. It's
labeled "CABLE
ASSEMBLY, RS232" in the 8516A S-Parameter Test Set
Operating and Service Manual.
-George
|
Looking at the 8340 manual it states that PIN4/10/11/17 are used and corresponding to control bits 3/1/0/2? on the testset , I was looking at the 8516 manual and it shows 4 wires from the rear panel connector running to the A5 Doubler control
ending up in a PAL that decodes the adress to control filters , no control bit designation is given !
So the main challenge would be to figure out the pins on the testset side ,? since this is all logic stuff I don’t think there is a risk to just rigging up a 1-1 cable using DB25 connectors and try it
?
Sent from for Windows
?
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From: n8zmTWH via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 1:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question
?
To start with, the 8516 test set does not use a serial communications scheme. The cable is most likely a parallel cable. Why it was specified as RS-232 is strange, unless the
thought was that those were very common so a couple of crossed wires (pins 2 & 3 as I recall) were anticipated. Or, they simply did not use those pins since I doubt they needed 25 conductors anyway. This is based on my experience with the 8753 test sets, however,.
?
?
PALs are combinational logic, such as (using address lines)? A4 and A3 and not A2 and A1 and not A0.
To decode serial data, you need flip-flops, some storage to convert serial to parallel and then act on that.
CPLD's can do that, but with most PAL chips, depending on what's internal, it would be difficult.
Generally, PALs are used to decode address lines to enable a specific chip.
Harvey
?
On 2/22/2022 1:26 PM, Lothar baier wrote:
I know it is labeled RS232 but unfortunately that does not mean a regular RS232 Cable can be used , I looked through the service manual for the 8340B and it indicates the pin numbers on the rear panel connector of the 8340 but it refers
to control bit numbers which would indicate a parallel port rather than serial , also the 8516 service manual indicates that the pins are connected to a PAL on the doubler control board , I am a RF not a digital guy but I don’t think you can use a PAL as a
serial decoder
?
Sent from for Windows
?
?
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 07:20 AM, Lothar baier wrote:
08516-60009
You might a standard RS232 cable. It's labeled "CABLE ASSEMBLY, RS232" in the 8516A S-Parameter Test Set Operating and Service Manual.
-George
|
To start with, the 8516 test set does not use a serial communications scheme. The cable is most likely a parallel cable. Why it was specified as RS-232 is strange, unless the thought was that those were very common so a couple of crossed wires (pins 2 & 3 as I recall) were anticipated. Or, they simply did not use those pins since I doubt they needed 25 conductors anyway. This is based on my experience with the 8753 test sets, however,. ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Harvey White
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 2:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question? PALs are combinational logic, such as (using address lines)? A4 and A3 and not A2 and A1 and not A0. To decode serial data, you need flip-flops, some storage to convert serial to parallel and then act on that. CPLD's can do that, but with most PAL chips, depending on what's internal, it would be difficult. Generally, PALs are used to decode address lines to enable a specific chip. Harvey ? On 2/22/2022 1:26 PM, Lothar baier wrote: I know it is labeled RS232 but unfortunately that does not mean a regular RS232 Cable can be used , I looked through the service manual for the 8340B and it indicates the pin numbers on the rear panel connector of the 8340 but it refers to control bit numbers which would indicate a parallel port rather than serial , also the 8516 service manual indicates that the pins are connected to a PAL on the doubler control board , I am a RF not a digital guy but I don’t think you can use a PAL as a serial decoder ? Sent from for Windows ? ? On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 07:20 AM, Lothar baier wrote: 08516-60009
You might a standard RS232 cable. It's labeled "CABLE ASSEMBLY, RS232" in the 8516A S-Parameter Test Set Operating and Service Manual.
-George
|
That’s what I thought so the use of a PAL would point towards the control interface indeed being a parallel interface and not serial
?
Sent from for Windows
?
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Show quoted text
From: Harvey White via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 1:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question
?
PALs are combinational logic, such as (using address lines)? A4 and A3 and not A2 and A1 and not A0.
To decode serial data, you need flip-flops, some storage to convert serial to parallel and then act on that.
CPLD's can do that, but with most PAL chips, depending on what's internal, it would be difficult.
Generally, PALs are used to decode address lines to enable a specific chip.
Harvey
?
On 2/22/2022 1:26 PM, Lothar baier wrote:
I know it is labeled RS232 but unfortunately that does not mean a regular RS232 Cable can be used , I looked through the service manual for the 8340B and it indicates the pin numbers on the rear panel connector of the 8340 but it refers
to control bit numbers which would indicate a parallel port rather than serial , also the 8516 service manual indicates that the pins are connected to a PAL on the doubler control board , I am a RF not a digital guy but I don’t think you can use a PAL as a
serial decoder
?
Sent from for Windows
?
?
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 07:20 AM, Lothar baier wrote:
08516-60009
You might a standard RS232 cable. It's labeled "CABLE ASSEMBLY, RS232" in the 8516A S-Parameter Test Set Operating and Service Manual.
-George
|
PALs are combinational logic, such as (using address lines)? A4
and A3 and not A2 and A1 and not A0.
To decode serial data, you need flip-flops, some storage to
convert serial to parallel and then act on that.
CPLD's can do that, but with most PAL chips, depending on what's
internal, it would be difficult.
Generally, PALs are used to decode address lines to enable a
specific chip.
Harvey
On 2/22/2022 1:26 PM, Lothar baier
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I know it is labeled RS232 but
unfortunately that does not mean a regular RS232 Cable can be
used , I looked through the service manual for the 8340B and
it indicates the pin numbers on the rear panel connector of
the 8340 but it refers to control bit numbers which would
indicate a parallel port rather than serial , also the 8516
service manual indicates that the pins are connected to a PAL
on the doubler control board , I am a RF not a digital guy but
I don’t think you can use a PAL as a serial decoder
?
Sent from for Windows
?
?
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 07:20 AM, Lothar
baier wrote:
08516-60009
You might a standard RS232 cable. It's
labeled "CABLE
ASSEMBLY, RS232" in the 8516A S-Parameter Test Set
Operating and Service Manual.
-George
|
Re: HP 8662A Keycap "BACK SPACE" needed
Thanks for looking. If I should not find the right one in the next few weeks, maybe one with a different print from Your keyboard fits?
Best regards
Peter
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The 8566B is not a standard Beast.
The power supply voltages are specified to a much higher accuracy than most instruments you would encounter, and for a reason.
For example, the +22V rail is specified for +-20mV, and the 20V rail for +-1mV.
First, make sure you use a very accurate DMM (the manual calls for using an HP3456A 6.5 digits DMM).
Second, your +22V rail is completely out of spec.
Obviously, adjusting the supplies is only the first step, and it will change the calibration of the instrument which is not an easy thing to correct, and requires equipment that you may or may not have.
I am not an expert on the YTO unlock problem, but I do know that everything has to be just right to make the YTO happy. You will not get far unless all rails are within specs!
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I know it is labeled RS232 but unfortunately that does not mean a regular RS232 Cable can be used , I looked through the service manual for the 8340B and it indicates the pin numbers on the rear panel connector of the 8340 but it refers
to control bit numbers which would indicate a parallel port rather than serial , also the 8516 service manual indicates that the pins are connected to a PAL on the doubler control board , I am a RF not a digital guy but I don’t think you can use a PAL as a
serial decoder
?
Sent from for Windows
?
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Show quoted text
From: gk5220 via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 10:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question
?
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 07:20 AM, Lothar baier wrote:
08516-60009
You might a standard RS232 cable. It's labeled "CABLE ASSEMBLY, RS232" in the 8516A S-Parameter Test Set Operating and Service Manual.
-George
|
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 07:20 AM, Lothar baier wrote:
08516-60009
You might a standard RS232 cable. It's labeled " CABLE ASSEMBLY, RS232" in the 8516A S-Parameter Test Set Operating and Service Manual.
-George
|
--
HP8558B Versus HP182T Sweep Fail.
Good year 2022 without the accursed bug.
Well there everyone
?
In April 2019 my HP8558B decided to let it do the sweep? Fig0 , I found that only with external sweep it worked, it was on the waiting list for a better analysis, however I was around the HP8116A and with external help I got there (well there Markl).
In December 2021, in a visual inspection of the HP8558B plugin, I found that some of the contacts (fingers) of the 4 switches were loose, and I thought it was here, and the novel that I summarize below began
Preliminary Notes: Understanding certain details implies access to the HP182T/C Service Manual.
I urge HP experts to speak up.
?
1st 2019 I lost the HP8558B scan Fig0
2nd 2021 I considered that the failure was due to lack of contact finger in the SW. Fig1 and Fig1.1 , ward work.
3rd mechanically fixing the fingers of the SW Fig2
4th Malfunction remains?
5th Test of the switches all OK, with the help of a kit adapted from the IC card HP10529-20005 Fig3 and fig4.
6th Why not use my HP180C+HP1802 and HP1821A that is stopped !! fig5 , because I haven't used it before ?
Test with the Main Frame HP180C and the HP8558B, after de-rusting the switches and adjusting, voilá HP8558B OK!!
7th Use 182T with HP1801 and HP1821 OFF, I confirm the failure is in the HP182T.
8th All voltages on HP182T OK.
9th Summary measurement of transistor and diode junctions (all?) OK
10? Measurement of HT -3KV ?? and 19KV ?? , result? +-2.9 and +-? 18KV, OK
10th Use of two 1V 100 Hz sine wave generators for input on the HP1801A and the EXT INPUT sweep on the 180C
11? Results in a distorted Lissajous image by pressing FIND BEAM Fig6
12th With Intensity CW almost at MAX. clear image Lissajous Fig7
13th In sweep INT values of UNBLANKING GATE board A7 pin14 is -0.2V should be -0.7V
14th Output on board A7 ALT TRIGGER pin13 for Plug-in not detected?
15th UNBLANKING SIGNAL output values also in A7 pin w4, is between +20 and +75V when it should be between +42 and +92V? DC values, and is not a square signal.
16th I'm in a fish situation with is tail in the mouth.
Best regards
Bem Hajam
PS: I am new in this site , missing N?? photos .
Hern?ni Capela
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Re: HP 8662A Keycap "BACK SPACE" needed
Hello Peter,
Unfortunately , It is not a 8662A keyboard that I have
Best regards
eric F1GHB
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Re: How to find patents for HP equipment
Bonjour, some misinformation in a few replies.
35 US Code § 287 - "Limitation on damages" mentions effect of lack of notice and marking ion patented devices.
After issue, the patentee or assignee shoudl mark the equipment with patent numbers.
Nowadays "Virtual makring" allows a website link to all the applicable patents.
Check the HP manuals of the instrument for a list of applicable patents.
Jon
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Re: RPG 5060-9444 (conversion LAMP to LED)
A situation when it is reasonable to replace a lamp with a LED and thankfully it's not blue!
Great job and great images, thank you.
Very nice job, Yves! The idea of recycling the functional parts of a LED bulb is appealing, I like that a lot!
Thanks for sharing!
Chris
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Re: HP 3048A software without floppy disks
BTW, you can just ignore the prompts to change floppy disks when asked, since all the files are one the same volume.
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Re: HP 3048A software without floppy disks
Matt,
If you are already emulating a hard disk using hpdrive, you should have enough room to store the programs onto that volume and not have to use other GPIB adapters.
In looking at the "PHASE" program.? You actually need to STORE the two files "PHASE_SUBS" and "SYS_TESTS" as PROG files so that they can be LOADSUB loaded into the running program (see Installsubs, line 6962).? I would do the following for each of the files: "PHASE", "PHASE_SUBS", "SYS_TESTS".
1. GET the original ASCII program file into your HP382.
2. Do a Single-Step to have the loaded program do a Pre-Run.? Note: This speeds up the loading of that program later.
3. Now STORE the program back onto the disk (For example: STORE "PHASEnew").? Note: You have to name it slightly different since there is already a file called "PHASE"
Once you've stored each program file, you will need to rename the original ASCII versions of the files to something else, so that you can rename the new stored program files back to their original names.
Now you should be to do LOAD "PHASE" and RUN the program.? It should be able to do the LOADSUB ALL it needs to do for the "PHASE_SUBS" and "SYS_TESTS" as needed.
You can privately email if you need further assistance...
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Re: How to find patents for HP equipment
Matt, consider yourself lucky if you find only a hundred or so possible candidates to search through, for patents pertinent to a particular model. The first thing to look at is the manuals for the product, preferably versions over some time or generation span. Any patent notices would be in the manuals, or even printed on the instrument itself, in a form like "this product may be protected under one or more of the following US Patents..." No one in their right mind seeks patent protection on only one particular product - you claim as broadly as allowable an apparatus, a method, or both, for accomplishing a purpose. Any patented inventions used in a product could have resulted from its development, or from another product prior, owned by the same entity. This means that some patented circuit design (apparatus and/or method) or software (method) used for another model (of anything) before, and adopted by the 8662A, still counts, which makes the possible list even bigger in number and time span.
Your searching by assignee and rough time frame makes sense, but as you suspected, there's more to it. I'd recommend considering this list of things to do:
1. Look for any patent notices in the manuals, on the unit, and in the catalogs or other promotional material.
2. As you mentioned, the contemporaneous HP Journal issues are good for timing, but even better for the technical info. I've found these to be among the best sources - they seem to have been written (I think) by the engineers and others who knew exactly what's in there and why, and even explained the issues and rationale for decisions made.
3. Look at earlier/similar products in the line to get some idea of what may be in common. Look at other products that seem might need some of the same. And, look at later products that may do the same or better in some respect..
4. Learn to speed read the Abstract, looking for key words and phrases that may be pertinent. Also, with practice, learn to speed read the first paragraph or two of the Background and the Description, and Claim 1. The Background may mention similar or competitive products.
5. On any that seem interesting, look at the prior art references listed, and at any later patents that reference it. - you may see some connections.
6. Build a list of the inventors of anything pertinent. Then search by these inventors.
7. Let your intuition loose. It may lead to wild goose chases, but you never know. I've found lots of things by sheer luck or serendipity - these are unreliable and unpredictable, but great when it happens.
Remember, you'll almost never see the actual model number itself show up in a patent - it is intended to be broadly applicable, not limited, and a model number may have not even existed anyway at the priority date and throughout the application process. What may show up is what it's supposed to better than - the prior art. Or, in patents that reference it, and why they are better in some way.
Good luck.
Dr. Ed, Esq,
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Re: How to find patents for HP equipment
Hi Pete,
In the US, it once was "first to invent". That is no more; it is now
"first to file", in sync with (most of) the rest of the world.
--Tom
--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 2/21/2022 20:07, saipan59 (Pete)
wrote:
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Getting more back on topic, my original point was that a narrower
search filter might be either: Filing date (before release), or
Grant date (after release)? The assumption being that Grant is
unlikely to occur before Release, and Filing is unlikely after
Release.
Also, my impression was that the important "start date" is NOT the
filing date, but rather the earliest date that the inventor can
show documentation of the idea, which can include hand-written
notes in a notebook, or other means. I remember I was required to
provide that type of info early in the process. And I just read
online that the U.S. had (prior to 2013) a 1-year grace period to
allow filing after "disclosure".
Pete
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Re: RPG 5060-9444 (conversion LAMP to LED)
Very nice job, Yves! The idea of recycling the functional parts of a LED bulb is appealing, I like that a lot!
Thanks for sharing!
Chris
|
Re: How to find patents for HP equipment
Getting more back on topic, my original point was that a narrower search filter might be either: Filing date (before release), or Grant date (after release)? The assumption being that Grant is unlikely to occur before Release, and Filing is unlikely after Release.
Also, my impression was that the important "start date" is NOT the filing date, but rather the earliest date that the inventor can show documentation of the idea, which can include hand-written notes in a notebook, or other means. I remember I was required to provide that type of info early in the process. And I just read online that the U.S. had (prior to 2013) a 1-year grace period to allow filing after "disclosure".
Pete
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Dave McGuire
H Kapa
Froggie the Gremlin
rmb_guru
saipan59 (Pete)