Getting more back on topic, my original point was that a narrower search filter might be either: Filing date (before release), or Grant date (after release)? The assumption being that Grant is unlikely to occur before Release, and Filing is unlikely after Release.

Also, my impression was that the important "start date" is NOT the filing date, but rather the earliest date that the inventor can show documentation of the idea, which can include hand-written notes in a notebook, or other means. I remember I was required to provide that type of info early in the process. And I just read online that the U.S. had (prior to 2013) a 1-year grace period to allow filing after "disclosure".

Pete

On Feb 21, 2022, at 19:39, Richard Knoppow <dickburk@...> wrote:

? McDonald's secret sauce is, I am sure, Bob's Big Boy thousand island dressing. The Big Mac is very similar to the Big Boy except the Big Boy has more flavor. Bob's was a favorite hangout when I was in highschool (the Toluca Lake one).

On 2/21/2022 5:13 PM, Steve - Home wrote:
And McDonald’s secret sauce and KFC’s “11 herbs and spices” ?

Steve

On Feb 21, 2022, at 6:53 PM, Tom Lee <tomlee@...> wrote:

?A classic example of trade secret protection is the formula for Coke. Patents expire, but trade secret protection lasts as long as the secret can be kept.

Tom

On 2/21/2022 4:45 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
To be clear, once an application has been made there is considerable protection until the patent is issued. As someone mentioned there are lots of patent applied for notices on manufactured items.
Also, Some companies relied more on trade secret protection. Eastman Kodak did this for many years because there is no time limit on it. They began to rely more on patents when the rate of discovery of new products became rapid enough for a patent to last through the market life. A trade secret can protect one against having a product design stolen but not against independent discovery.
Patent law seems to be extremely convoluted although it still not as bad as copyright law.

On 2/21/2022 3:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io wrote:

No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing.

The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial. That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent.

I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing. The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important. Many patents take years to be awarded.

Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees. Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them. Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives that matched funding available for patents with business needs.

Best, Francesco K5URG

*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Steve - Home
*Sent:* Monday, February 21, 2022 5:14 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment

?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.

Steve



On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io
<k5urg@...> wrote:

?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product
hits the market!



On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete)
<saipan1959@...> wrote:

?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against
Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is
that Grant is almost certainly going to be after
product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During
development, there is often little time to do the
patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers
(may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and
they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...

Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE.
DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In
the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee
of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in
Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need
for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply
submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee
$100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid
another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and
8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was
granted (but it was submitted first).

Pete

--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070

--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@...
WB6KBL

? McDonald's secret sauce is, I am sure, Bob's Big Boy thousand island dressing. The Big Mac is very similar to the Big Boy except the Big Boy has more flavor. Bob's was a favorite hangout when I was in highschool (the Toluca Lake one).
On 2/21/2022 5:13 PM, Steve - Home wrote:

And McDonald’s secret sauce and KFC’s “11 herbs and spices” ?

Steve

On Feb 21, 2022, at 6:53 PM, Tom Lee <tomlee@...> wrote:

?A classic example of trade secret protection is the formula for Coke. Patents expire, but trade secret protection lasts as long as the secret can be kept.

Tom

On 2/21/2022 4:45 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
?? To be clear, once an application has been made there is considerable protection until the patent is issued. As someone mentioned there are lots of patent applied for notices on manufactured items.
?? Also, Some companies relied more on trade secret protection. Eastman Kodak did this for many years because there is no time limit on it. They began to rely more on patents when the rate of discovery of new products became rapid enough for a patent to last through the market life. A trade secret can protect one against having a product design stolen but not against independent discovery.
?? Patent law seems to be extremely convoluted although it still not as bad as copyright law.

On 2/21/2022 3:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io wrote:

No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing.

The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial.? That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent.

I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing.? The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important. Many patents take years to be awarded.

Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees.? Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them.? Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives? that matched funding available for patents with business needs.

Best, Francesco K5URG

*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Steve - Home
*Sent:* Monday, February 21, 2022 5:14 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment

?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.

Steve



??? On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io
??? <k5urg@...> wrote:

??? ?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product
??? hits the market!



??????? On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete)
??????? <saipan1959@...> wrote:

??????? ?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against
??????? Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is
??????? that Grant is almost certainly going to be after
??????? product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During
??????? development, there is often little time to do the
??????? patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers
??????? (may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and
??????? they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...

??????? Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE.
??????? DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In
??????? the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee
??????? of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in
??????? Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need
??????? for a patent."
??????? But HP was very generous with patents. Simply
??????? submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee
??????? $100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid
??????? another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and
??????? 8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was
??????? granted (but it was submitted first).

??????? Pete

--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070

And McDonald’s secret sauce and KFC’s “11 herbs and spices” ?

Steve

On Feb 21, 2022, at 6:53 PM, Tom Lee <tomlee@...> wrote:

?A classic example of trade secret protection is the formula for Coke. Patents expire, but trade secret protection lasts as long as the secret can be kept.

Tom

On 2/21/2022 4:45 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
To be clear, once an application has been made there is considerable protection until the patent is issued. As someone mentioned there are lots of patent applied for notices on manufactured items.
Also, Some companies relied more on trade secret protection. Eastman Kodak did this for many years because there is no time limit on it. They began to rely more on patents when the rate of discovery of new products became rapid enough for a patent to last through the market life. A trade secret can protect one against having a product design stolen but not against independent discovery.
Patent law seems to be extremely convoluted although it still not as bad as copyright law.

On 2/21/2022 3:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io wrote:

No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing.

The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial. That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent.

I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing. The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important. Many patents take years to be awarded.

Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees. Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them. Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives that matched funding available for patents with business needs.

Best, Francesco K5URG

*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Steve - Home
*Sent:* Monday, February 21, 2022 5:14 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment

?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.

Steve



On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io
<k5urg@...> wrote:

?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product
hits the market!



On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete)
<saipan1959@...> wrote:

?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against
Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is
that Grant is almost certainly going to be after
product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During
development, there is often little time to do the
patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers
(may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and
they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...

Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE.
DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In
the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee
of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in
Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need
for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply
submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee
$100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid
another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and
8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was
granted (but it was submitted first).

Pete

--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070

Hi Pete:

There are a number of ways.

In general there are two search engines.? The USPTO and Google.

The good news is that Google has used Optical Character Recognition (OCR) and so you can search all of their data base for any word anywhere.
The bad news is that Google has used Optical Character Recognition which has many mistakes, so there are odds associated with any search.
<> - this is the basic patent number search and for United States patent number the first two characters need to be US.
At the bottom of that page there's a link to the Advanced Search where you have a lot more options.
The Google patent result pages can be trimmed back so that they end with the patent number, a very convenient situation.

The USPTO has a number of web pages for searching.? But they use .tif format for the patents, i.e. no OCR and the searches can only be done on the fields they have digitized.
This is the patent number search (good for getting class numbers):
This is the Quick search:
Notice the select years drop down box.? When you select 1976 to present there are many more fields available to search.
When 1790 to present there are fewer fields available.? There was a patent office fire in 1836 so some patents are no longer available.
The URL for a search result is not permanent nor is the result of a patent number search.

ALL patents are issued on a Tuesday.? So? you can check? a patent date using a Calendar to confirm the patent is on a Tuesday.? If the date is not on a Tuesday there's a typo.

My web pages are filled with patents on all kinds of things including HP instruments.? Here's an old list:


And a general discussion:


I used to visit the Sunnyvale, California patent office and it turns out they are the only one where the patents are filed by Class/Sub-class numbers.? NOT in patent number order.
This allows for easy searching once you know the class numbers for the general area.


If you let me know more specifics I may be able to help.
--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke, N6GCE

axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

A classic example of trade secret protection is the formula for Coke. Patents expire, but trade secret protection lasts as long as the secret can be kept.

Tom

On 2/21/2022 4:45 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:

?? To be clear, once an application has been made there is considerable protection until the patent is issued. As someone mentioned there are lots of patent applied for notices on manufactured items.
?? Also, Some companies relied more on trade secret protection. Eastman Kodak did this for many years because there is no time limit on it. They began to rely more on patents when the rate of discovery of new products became rapid enough for a patent to last through the market life. A trade secret can protect one against having a product design stolen but not against independent discovery.
?? Patent law seems to be extremely convoluted although it still not as bad as copyright law.

On 2/21/2022 3:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io wrote:

No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing.

The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial.? That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent.

I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing.? The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important. Many patents take years to be awarded.

Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees.? Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them.? Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives? that matched funding available for patents with business needs.

Best, Francesco K5URG

*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Steve - Home
*Sent:* Monday, February 21, 2022 5:14 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment

?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.

Steve



??? On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io
??? <k5urg@...> wrote:

??? ?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product
??? hits the market!



??????? On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete)
??????? <saipan1959@...> wrote:

??????? ?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against
??????? Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is
??????? that Grant is almost certainly going to be after
??????? product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During
??????? development, there is often little time to do the
??????? patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers
??????? (may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and
??????? they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...

??????? Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE.
??????? DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In
??????? the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee
??????? of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in
??????? Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need
??????? for a patent."
??????? But HP was very generous with patents. Simply
??????? submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee
??????? $100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid
??????? another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and
??????? 8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was
??????? granted (but it was submitted first).

??????? Pete

?

Hello,

I asked this question as part of another question on VintHPcom
(/g/VintHPcom/message/7448). However, I believe people
in this group are likely to have familiarity with the 3048A software so
I'm somewhat cross-posting here.

I'm trying to run the HP 3048A software from my HP 382. However, I
believe my floppy drive may be bad. Is there a way to run this software
from program files instead of from floppy disks?

I got the software from hparchive
(). That includes
the disk images and the ASCII files. I can use hpdir/hpdrive to copy the
ASCII files to the hpdrive emulated hard drive. I can then run PHASE
with GET "PHASE". But this then prompts me to input the "PHASE_SUBS"
floppy to proceed. Is there a way to provide the "PHASE_SUBS" ASCII file
instead of the floppy?

I think another way to do this would be to get another GPIB adapter and
emulate a floppy drive with another invocation of hpdrive. But, I'd
prefer to avoid buying another GPIB adapter if I can.

Thanks,
Matt

?

?

The switch in both cases was not faulty. I think the write protect was activated, but as to the reason, I cannot say for certain. Every other aspect of the analyzer seems to be functional. I also thought it strange that the CPU Board recognizes when S400 SW8 ALT ENABLE is thrown during some of the routines.