Re: HP 4192A GPIB measurements
On 2/8/19 15:01, Michael A. Terrell wrote: I delete Notepad from my Windows computers. Some attacks use it to modify system files. I use Wordpad on those computers. It doesn't run macros, like Notepad or Microsoft Word.
Michael A. Terrell I delete Windows from my computers.? The virus that masquerades as an operating system.? ;-) Mark
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Re: Test fixture for dielectric measurements
Dr. David Kirkby from Kirkby Microwave Ltd
This is a really interesting topic. I also wanted to do several measurements of (complex) permittivity and permeability. But some of the math is a bit cumbersome.
I also wonder what kind of test fixture could be home made (eg. using a ordinary lathe and/or mill).
I think a open end semirigid cable could be used for dielectric measurements of liquids. At least the photographs in some Keysight application note about this topic look like this.
Tobias To get both permittivity & permeability you need two independent measurements, such as reflection & transmission.?
A lot depends on the frequency. Putting the material under test inside a waveguide is very practical at microwave frequencies, whereas it is not in the MHz range, where a parallel plate capacitor is much more practical.?
Dave.?
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?Hello folks,
?I am needing some HP-3466A front panel knobs ( brown ) . If anyone can help-me please send-me an email.
Thanks in advance.
Wagner Luis
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Re: Test fixture for dielectric measurements
This is a really interesting topic. I also wanted to do several measurements of (complex) permittivity and permeability. But some of the math is a bit cumbersome.
I also wonder what kind of test fixture could be home made (eg. using a ordinary lathe and/or mill).
I think a open end semirigid cable could be used for dielectric measurements of liquids. At least the photographs in some Keysight application note about this topic look like this.
Tobias
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message --------
From: Chuck Harris <cfharris@...>
Date: 2/9/19 02:11 (GMT+01:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Test fixture for dielectric measurements
Hmmm?
That is basically what I did my MS thesis on:
"An Automated Microwave Network Analyzer
?and its Application in the Measurement
?of the Dielectric Properties of Materials"
I put together a 8410 system out of manually controlled
8410 network analyzer bits, and some this and that,
automated it, and then made tons of measurements on the
dielectric properties of water at microwave frequencies.
Probably a bit more than you were looking to do.
The test cells were gold plated stainless steel sections
of coaxial "air line", that I filled with the liquids being
sampled.? Distilled water, normal saline, and normal saline
with DNA.... Oh, and air.
I then wrote a function that computed the dielectric constant
of water according to the Debye equation to compare my results
to.
-Chuck Harris
peter bunge wrote:
> Has anyone made test fixtures for measuring liquids or solids (essentially a capacitor with the DUT as dielectric)
> I know they are available for their weight in gold but I would like to make some.
> The solids are a problem as there are boundary effects where electrons in the dielectric don't like getting close to the conductive plate.
> Amorphous solids (think talcum powder) are a problem for plate design and need compression forces. Other solids like sand or salt crystals are also a challenge.
> Transducers like Barium Titanate probably have metal evaporated on the surface.
> Anyone out there with experience?
> Anyone have something for sale? (contact offline)
>
>
>
>
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Re: HP 4192A GPIB measurements
It wasn't from a 'dodgy site'. It was from a well known software site that I had downloaded hundreds of programs from, over a ten year period. That ONE file was hacked. I had downloaded it and used it on a different computer a few days earlier with no problems. I deleted the hacked file and downloaded a fresh copy about six hours later, and that file was OK.
Do whatever you want with your systems. I just avoid known risks.
Microsoft may have corrected that 'feature', but I prefer Wordpad because it has always worked better, until Win7. I copied the XP version to my Win7 computers, because it didn't give me the option of saving new files as .htm/.html I've created dozens of websites with just Wordpad. They are flashy, but they are compact and don't load dozens or hundreds of scripts into the user's system. There are a few different CSS, and just one tiny Javascript for the Email button to function. That file also sets the copyright date on the pages.
I've never installed or used Word, Works or any of their other bloatware. I have repaired and built PCs for over 30 years. I've done hundreds, and any program that ran micros was considered a security risk.
-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian
Sent: Feb 8, 2019 3:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 4192A GPIB measurements
I'm the last person on the planet to defend anything from Micro$oft but isn't it a bit harsh to blame an application if you download it from a dodgy site?
That aside FWIW I like Notepad++, I'm not a proper programmer but I've used it for years. It can be used in a basic way but is highly configurable and 'knows' a bunch of languages so when writing in EzGPIB for example, just set it to Pascal and keywords and so on are highlighted. Lots of plugins around, like a very handy hex editor/viewer which I found invaluable when trying to figure out what the heck was going on when downloading data sets from a spectrometer using EzGPIB as the controller.
Oh yes, it's released under Gnu license and so it's free too!
Adrian
|
Re: Test fixture for dielectric measurements
Hmmm?
That is basically what I did my MS thesis on:
"An Automated Microwave Network Analyzer
and its Application in the Measurement
of the Dielectric Properties of Materials"
I put together a 8410 system out of manually controlled
8410 network analyzer bits, and some this and that,
automated it, and then made tons of measurements on the
dielectric properties of water at microwave frequencies.
Probably a bit more than you were looking to do.
The test cells were gold plated stainless steel sections
of coaxial "air line", that I filled with the liquids being
sampled. Distilled water, normal saline, and normal saline
with DNA.... Oh, and air.
I then wrote a function that computed the dielectric constant
of water according to the Debye equation to compare my results
to.
-Chuck Harris
peter bunge wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Has anyone made test fixtures for measuring liquids or solids (essentially a capacitor with the DUT as dielectric)
I know they are available for their weight in gold but I would like to make some.
The solids are a problem as there are boundary effects where electrons in the dielectric don't like getting close to the conductive plate.
Amorphous solids (think talcum powder) are a problem for plate design and need compression forces. Other solids like sand or salt crystals are also a challenge.
Transducers like Barium Titanate probably have metal evaporated on the surface.
Anyone out there with experience?
Anyone have something for sale? (contact offline)
|
Re: Test fixture for dielectric measurements
Glorious. Nice scores!
-Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2/8/19 7:14 PM, Chris Trask - N7ZWY/WDX3HLB wrote: I picked up quite a bit of GR stuff at that junk yard, including a pair of those nice variable trombone lines. I think I paid $40 each for them. They had been in storage somewhere for a very long time and were frozen, but I managed to get them loose. Should have bought the third one. Also got a variable length short.
Somewhere around here, in a deep, dark, forgotten storage
cabinet, I have a General Radio 1690-A "Dielectric Sample Holder".
I picked it up at a junk yard decades ago. Used it a few times,
then carefully put it away. Carefully enough that I couldn't tell
you where it is even if my life depended on it. And if I could find
it, I would never part with it.
You might want to download the PDF version of the manual at:
I have one of these as well. It's a marvel of amazing fine machinist
work. Unfortunately I didn't get mine from a junkyard; I paid Rather
Serious Money for it. (you lucky dog)
Chris
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro
- Hunter S. Thompson
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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Re: Test fixture for dielectric measurements
Dr. David Kirkby from Kirkby Microwave Ltd
Has anyone made test fixtures for measuring liquids or solids (essentially a capacitor with the DUT as dielectric)
I know they are available for their weight in gold but I would like to make some.
The solids are a problem as there are boundary effects where electrons in the dielectric don't like getting close to the conductive plate.
Amorphous solids (think talcum powder) are a problem for plate design and need compression forces. Other solids like sand or salt crystals are also a challenge.
Transducers like Barium Titanate probably have metal evaporated on the surface.
Anyone out there with experience?
Anyone have something for sale? (contact offline)
I have played with liquids.?
The frequency you want to make the measurement at is important, as is the loss, as they set what methods work and what will not.
Also is the liquid polar??
I have a document from NPL that lists about 50 ways of making such measurements!?
Andrew Gregory at NPL is very helpful
I managed to get a tour of the lab on the last NPL open day. The lab was not open to the public, but I arranged it in advance.?
I have used an air spaced Jackson capacitor and measured impedance on an LCR meter. It is not perfect as you get fringing fields with air, which are reduced with a dielectric.?
Polar liquids are a problem as they set up a boundary layer between the electrodes.?
I made an air-spaced 50 ohn transmission line, then filled the air with liquid. Unfortunately my design has no analytical solution, so I resorted to EM simulation, but a variation with stripline does?
I am told for low loss liquids like cyclohexane, the only method that works is a resonance method, looking for a reduction in Q with the dielectric.?
Dave
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Re: Test fixture for dielectric measurements
Chris Trask - N7ZWY/WDX3HLB
I picked up quite a bit of GR stuff at that junk yard, including a pair of those nice variable trombone lines. I think I paid $40 each for them. They had been in storage somewhere for a very long time and were frozen, but I managed to get them loose. Should have bought the third one. Also got a variable length short.
Somewhere around here, in a deep, dark, forgotten storage
cabinet, I have a General Radio 1690-A "Dielectric Sample Holder".
I picked it up at a junk yard decades ago. Used it a few times,
then carefully put it away. Carefully enough that I couldn't tell
you where it is even if my life depended on it. And if I could find
it, I would never part with it.
You might want to download the PDF version of the manual at:
I have one of these as well. It's a marvel of amazing fine machinist
work. Unfortunately I didn't get mine from a junkyard; I paid Rather
Serious Money for it. (you lucky dog)
Chris When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro - Hunter S. Thompson
|
Re: Test fixture for dielectric measurements
On 2/8/19 6:31 PM, Chris Trask - N7ZWY/WDX3HLB wrote: Somewhere around here, in a deep, dark, forgotten storage cabinet, I have a General Radio 1690-A "Dielectric Sample Holder". I picked it up at a junk yard decades ago. Used it a few times, then carefully put it away. Carefully enough that I couldn't tell you where it is even if my life depended on it. And if I could find it, I would never part with it.
You might want to download the PDF version of the manual at:
I have one of these as well. It's a marvel of amazing fine machinist work. Unfortunately I didn't get mine from a junkyard; I paid Rather Serious Money for it. (you lucky dog) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
|
Re: Test fixture for dielectric measurements
Chris Trask - N7ZWY/WDX3HLB
Somewhere around here, in a deep, dark, forgotten storage cabinet, I have a General Radio 1690-A "Dielectric Sample Holder". I picked it up at a junk yard decades ago. Used it a few times, then carefully put it away. Carefully enough that I couldn't tell you where it is even if my life depended on it. And if I could find it, I would never part with it. You might want to download the PDF version of the manual at: and see if it inspires any ideas on how to make such a fixture.
Has anyone made test fixtures for measuring liquids or solids
(essentially a capacitor with the DUT as dielectric)
I know they are available for their weight in gold but I would
like to make some.
The solids are a problem as there are boundary effects where
electrons in the dielectric don't like getting close to the
conductive plate.
Amorphous solids (think talcum powder) are a problem for plate
design and need compression forces. Other solids like sand or
salt crystals are also a challenge.
Transducers like Barium Titanate probably have metal evaporated
on the surface.
Anyone out there with experience?
Chris When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro - Hunter S. Thompson
|
Re: Test fixture for dielectric measurements
At 05:21 PM 2/8/2019, Peter Bunge wrote: Has anyone made test fixtures for measuring liquids or solids (essentially a capacitor with the DUT as dielectric) The closest I have come is using a GR Type 544-B Megohm Bridge to measure wire insulation and coaxial dielectric leakage and breakdown, but that approach is only good to 500 VDC. Dale H. Cook, GR/HP/Tek Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
|
Test fixture for dielectric measurements
Has anyone made test fixtures for measuring liquids or solids (essentially a capacitor with the DUT as dielectric)
I know they are available for their weight in gold but I would like to make some.
The solids are a problem as there are boundary effects where electrons in the dielectric don't like getting close to the conductive plate.
Amorphous solids (think talcum powder) are a problem for plate design and need compression forces. Other solids like sand or salt crystals are also a challenge.
Transducers like Barium Titanate probably have metal evaporated on the surface.
Anyone out there with experience?
Anyone have something for sale? (contact offline)
|
Re: HP 4192A GPIB measurements
I agree, Adrian.? I have that "love-hate" relationship with them
(M$) as well.? That looked to me to be the fault of a malicious app.
too.
I also really like Notepad++, for much the same reasons as you have
stated.
Daun
Daun E. Yeagley II, N8ASB
On 2/8/2019 3:46 PM, Adrian wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I'm the last person on the planet to defend anything from
Micro$oft but isn't it a bit harsh to blame an application if you
download it from a dodgy site?
That aside FWIW I like Notepad++, I'm not a proper programmer but
I've used it for years. It can be used in a basic way but is
highly configurable and 'knows' a bunch of languages so when
writing in EzGPIB for example, just set it to Pascal and keywords
and so on are highlighted. Lots of plugins around, like a very
handy hex editor/viewer which I found invaluable when trying to
figure out what the heck was going on when downloading data sets
from a spectrometer using EzGPIB as the controller.
Oh yes, it's released under Gnu license and so it's free too!
Adrian
|
Re: HP 4192A GPIB measurements
Notepad seems to have the find and replace but they do not work on my computer (Win7, works perfectly). I restarted my computer to see if that was the problem. It won't even find zzz that I typed in. I like MS Word because I can turn on hidden punctuation. As long as I save as Text it does everything for me editing the files for plotting.? I also like other features with special character sets and Greek symbols which I don't think I can do here. It is worth the trouble to explore all the features like search and jump to a page instead of scrolling. As I mentioned Tab is ^t and Linefeed is ^l but you can find them in Find>more>special (or replace). Peter
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 3:18 PM Daun Yeagley < daun@...> wrote: Now that's a new one on me!? Are you sure that notepad will/can run
macros??? I know that you can run macros in Notepad++ (which is third
party), but not notepad as exists in Windoze.?? If it can, please give
some reference as to how it does it.
Daun
Daun E. Yeagley II, N8ASB
On 2/8/2019 3:01 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> I delete Notepad from my Windows computers. Some attacks use it to modify system files. I use Wordpad on those computers. It doesn't run macros, like Notepad or Microsoft Word.
>
>
> Michael A. Terrell
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Dave_G0WBX via Groups.Io" <g8kbvdave=[email protected]>
>> Sent: Feb 8, 2019 8:51 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 4192A GPIB measurements
>>
>> Hi Peter.
>>
>> I'd recommend not using Word to edit such files, that has a tendency to
>> alter things, should you want to use the data in something else.? Use
>> Notepad, or other similar tool, that won't make unintended background
>> automated changes.? But you can still search and replace etc.
>>
>> You know you said you didn't particularly want to "learn to program",
>> well, the time may be approaching where you may want to change your view
>> on that.??? All those manual changes etc, you can automate with
>> software, and then even (with some effort it has to be said) graph them too.
>>
>> Pascal would be one choice (Lazarus, for example, the price is right!)
>> Especially as EZGPIB is Pascal based.
>>
>> You mentioned MS's Visual C in the past.? Yes, you could use that too,
>> but the learning curve will be near vertical, unless you have some C/C++
>> experience.
>>
>> It might be worth looking around for a dialect of Basic (stop moaning at
>> the back!)? Very easy to learn (what it was originally for of course)
>> and also easy to process string data.?? In truth, modern Basic
>> implementations are just as versatile and stable as any other language.
>>
>> There are HP related versions too, as well as later packages, but not
>> all are Free.
>>
>> Just googling "Basic for windows" throws up some free/low cost
>> possibilities.
>>
>> Of course, you could also take full control of the Prologix device in
>> time too from within whatever programming environment you might end up
>> with, but one step at a time.
>>
>> I'm 110% sure others on this list will have comments and other
>> recommendations.? ;-)
>>
>> Regards to All.
>>
>> Dave B
>
>
|
Re: HP 4192A GPIB measurements
I'm the last person on the planet to defend anything from Micro$oft but isn't it a bit harsh to blame an application if you download it from a dodgy site?
That aside FWIW I like Notepad++, I'm not a proper programmer but I've used it for years. It can be used in a basic way but is highly configurable and 'knows' a bunch of languages so when writing in EzGPIB for example, just set it to Pascal and keywords and so on are highlighted. Lots of plugins around, like a very handy hex editor/viewer which I found invaluable when trying to figure out what the heck was going on when downloading data sets from a spectrometer using EzGPIB as the controller.
Oh yes, it's released under Gnu license and so it's free too!
Adrian
|
Re: HP 4192A GPIB measurements
It's been several years, but I had downloaded a program from a site that had been infected. When I ran it, it opened Notepad and added a bunch of lines to the Registry. I had to manually search for each line, and delete them. Ii haven't allowed Notepad on any of my Windows computers, since then.
Michael A. Terrell
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: Daun Yeagley <daun@...>
Sent: Feb 8, 2019 3:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 4192A GPIB measurements
Now that's a new one on me!? Are you sure that notepad will/can run
macros??? I know that you can run macros in Notepad++ (which is third
party), but not notepad as exists in Windoze.?? If it can, please give
some reference as to how it does it.
|
Re: HP 4192A GPIB measurements
Now that's a new one on me!? Are you sure that notepad will/can run macros??? I know that you can run macros in Notepad++ (which is third party), but not notepad as exists in Windoze.?? If it can, please give some reference as to how it does it.
Daun
Daun E. Yeagley II, N8ASB
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2/8/2019 3:01 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote: I delete Notepad from my Windows computers. Some attacks use it to modify system files. I use Wordpad on those computers. It doesn't run macros, like Notepad or Microsoft Word.
Michael A. Terrell
-----Original Message-----
From: "Dave_G0WBX via Groups.Io" <g8kbvdave@...>
Sent: Feb 8, 2019 8:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 4192A GPIB measurements
Hi Peter.
I'd recommend not using Word to edit such files, that has a tendency to
alter things, should you want to use the data in something else.? Use
Notepad, or other similar tool, that won't make unintended background
automated changes.? But you can still search and replace etc.
You know you said you didn't particularly want to "learn to program",
well, the time may be approaching where you may want to change your view
on that.??? All those manual changes etc, you can automate with
software, and then even (with some effort it has to be said) graph them too.
Pascal would be one choice (Lazarus, for example, the price is right!)
Especially as EZGPIB is Pascal based.
You mentioned MS's Visual C in the past.? Yes, you could use that too,
but the learning curve will be near vertical, unless you have some C/C++
experience.
It might be worth looking around for a dialect of Basic (stop moaning at
the back!)? Very easy to learn (what it was originally for of course)
and also easy to process string data.?? In truth, modern Basic
implementations are just as versatile and stable as any other language.
There are HP related versions too, as well as later packages, but not
all are Free.
Just googling "Basic for windows" throws up some free/low cost
possibilities.
Of course, you could also take full control of the Prologix device in
time too from within whatever programming environment you might end up
with, but one step at a time.
I'm 110% sure others on this list will have comments and other
recommendations.? ;-)
Regards to All.
Dave B
|
Re: HP 4192A GPIB measurements
I delete Notepad from my Windows computers. Some attacks use it to modify system files. I use Wordpad on those computers. It doesn't run macros, like Notepad or Microsoft Word.
Michael A. Terrell
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: "Dave_G0WBX via Groups.Io" <g8kbvdave@...>
Sent: Feb 8, 2019 8:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 4192A GPIB measurements
Hi Peter.
I'd recommend not using Word to edit such files, that has a tendency to
alter things, should you want to use the data in something else.? Use
Notepad, or other similar tool, that won't make unintended background
automated changes.? But you can still search and replace etc.
You know you said you didn't particularly want to "learn to program",
well, the time may be approaching where you may want to change your view
on that.??? All those manual changes etc, you can automate with
software, and then even (with some effort it has to be said) graph them too.
Pascal would be one choice (Lazarus, for example, the price is right!)?
Especially as EZGPIB is Pascal based.
You mentioned MS's Visual C in the past.? Yes, you could use that too,
but the learning curve will be near vertical, unless you have some C/C++
experience.
It might be worth looking around for a dialect of Basic (stop moaning at
the back!)? Very easy to learn (what it was originally for of course)
and also easy to process string data.?? In truth, modern Basic
implementations are just as versatile and stable as any other language.
There are HP related versions too, as well as later packages, but not
all are Free.
Just googling "Basic for windows" throws up some free/low cost
possibilities.
Of course, you could also take full control of the Prologix device in
time too from within whatever programming environment you might end up
with, but one step at a time.
I'm 110% sure others on this list will have comments and other
recommendations.? ;-)
Regards to All.
Dave B
|
Re: HP 4192A GPIB measurements
How do I take this private? Thanks Dave for the advice.? I took a Fortran programming course back in the '60s then, when the programming was taking over, I told my boss I was better at electronic design but would never be more than a mediocre programmer. He hired two full time programmers and I was back to what I liked. The Intel 8008 chip came along and I built a computer controlled by pink paper tape from a Teletype.? This was an improvement over boxes of cards and evolved into an instrument controlling a Nuclear Data Pulse Height Analyzer and storing the data on Philips audio cassette tapes (hard drives had 30" platters or 24" long drums back then). It ran on Fortran and Assembly language.? I kept my career interesting and moved to RF in Accelerators and a Superconducting Cyclotron, and a good pension.? Now I program PICs in CCS C using the MPLAB IDE. I am happy with C, and EZGPIB with a minimum of Pascal.? I lost interest in Arduino since I showed a friend how to solve his problem and he said Arduino C does not have that function. I like CCS C. A few of weeks ago I installed MS Visual C++ and ran a Tutorial. I like it but will never be an expert.? I can tolerate Raspberry Pi and Linux. I don't want to learn any other languages. I don't want to be a programmer. I have only seen one post (using a macro in Excel) on gathering data and plotting from HP test equipment. This is despite starting a group for EZGPIB back when I was trying to get data from an 8505A VNA. I see some programs in the EZGPIB folder but not many. It just seems to me that I am the only one actually reading and plotting from these machines. I am not referring to newer instruments like the 8566A or 8753B that will spit the plots out for you to the 7470A emulator. These 419x series are 1980 vintage and used analog plotters.?? Regards, Peter.
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 8:51 AM Dave_G0WBX via Groups.Io <g8kbvdave= [email protected]> wrote: Hi Peter.
I'd recommend not using Word to edit such files, that has a tendency to
alter things, should you want to use the data in something else.? Use
Notepad, or other similar tool, that won't make unintended background
automated changes.? But you can still search and replace etc.
You know you said you didn't particularly want to "learn to program",
well, the time may be approaching where you may want to change your view
on that.??? All those manual changes etc, you can automate with
software, and then even (with some effort it has to be said) graph them too.
Pascal would be one choice (Lazarus, for example, the price is right!)?
Especially as EZGPIB is Pascal based.
You mentioned MS's Visual C in the past.? Yes, you could use that too,
but the learning curve will be near vertical, unless you have some C/C++
experience.
It might be worth looking around for a dialect of Basic (stop moaning at
the back!)? Very easy to learn (what it was originally for of course)
and also easy to process string data.?? In truth, modern Basic
implementations are just as versatile and stable as any other language.
There are HP related versions too, as well as later packages, but not
all are Free.
Just googling "Basic for windows" throws up some free/low cost
possibilities.
Of course, you could also take full control of the Prologix device in
time too from within whatever programming environment you might end up
with, but one step at a time.
I'm 110% sure others on this list will have comments and other
recommendations.? ;-)
Regards to All.
Dave B
--
Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source software.
::
|
Michael A. Terrell
Dave McGuire