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Re: hp card extender solution for all 8640b, 8630b/ availble from m
--- In hp_agilent_equipment@..., "arthurok_2000"
<arthurok@...> wrote: Hi: Just finished redoing an 8640B several months ago and sure could have used an extender. I know what you mean as being scarce. It's hard to believe that they really came with extender boards. There are two types of boards required for the 8640, one for the bottom boards and one for the top. I am not near the manuals right now and don't remember the number of pins for each. I would be interested. Will post again when I find the manual and see if the 30 pin and 36 pin meets the need fo both top and bottom of the 8640. Pete G. |
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Re: General opinion on 180 series scopes?
John Day
At 02:51 PM 1/22/2007, you wrote:
Tantalum caps are both inexpensive and stable. That isNot sure I would agree with that. In the era of equipment we are talking about tantalum caps were VERY expensive. They were used principally for their small size, better losses and lower ESR at higher frequencies. In terms of temperature co-efficient, many tantalums were better than aluminium caps, but this was generally not the reason they were chosen. For the same reason, nowadays we often use special high value ceramic capacitors (2.2uf, 3.3uf, 4.7uf) not because of stability, but because they offer better ESR figures than even the best tantalums and thus offer better regulator stability in many power supplies. But you have to choose the right parts, otherwise a single top quality ceramic needs to be replaced with a tantalum and two ceramics in some cases. In older equipment using tantalums (usually the early teardrop ones) you should make sure you have a good ceramic bypass across the tantalum. Back in the mid-80's we tested that tantalums for breakdown at high voltage and reverse voltage - very difficult to get them to fail. But let too much RF appear across the tantalum and you could almost always guarantee holes in the ceiling! But you need to be careful even today. I have seen modern surface mount tantalums for Kemet explode with RF. However, I have never lost one that I could attribute to overvoltage or reverse voltage. John |
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Re: General opinion on 180 series scopes?
Besides using caps from a 1st or 2nd tier manufacturers, remember when replacing Ta caps to provide enough voltage "headroom". One of the reasons the Ta caps fail is that the the rated voltage was too close to the in-circuit voltage. That works for Al caps, but not Tas.
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-------------- Original message --------------
From: Thomas Hejl <tmhejl@...> Paul, According to list and description of the 180 series scope that you gave, the 180C would appear to be the best buy. Most probes are of the passive type (they do not need an external additional power source to operate). The X10 or 10X probes that I mentioned should be passive as well. Check with the seller on the specifications of them (I could not find specs. right away on the HP10008A). If you are on a budget (as most of us are), then there are still other scopes that may perform as well and are less expensive. A few in mind are the Tektronix 2213 and the 2215 at 60MHz and the 465 at 50MHz. These are rather inexpensive, non-modular and are newer machines than the 180's (which were made around 1987). If the only choices you have are the 180's then stay with the 180C (The 184 might be overkill). Mike was correct of being on guard with the capacitors. Heat is the biggest killer of electronic components. More heat is generated from the units power supply then probably anywhere else. It is these capacitors that need the most attention. Tantalum caps are both inexpensive and stable. That is why manufacturers use them so often. When a circuit requires stabilization in performance, tants are caps of choice. Their biggest draw back is when they fail. (In particular the dipped ones.) There will be no warning. Some will simply short out internally and work one day but not the next. Others will go like a fire cracker sending carbon smoke throughout the unit with the sound of a pop. Electrolytic caps will give some warning sometimes. They may start to bulge out. Performance gets weaker due to poor ESR. See samples here at: (If you ever do decide to replace any cap., make sure it is made from a reliable manufacturer. Dell Computer had a problem with caps a few years back due to the purchase of bad caps from a poor source.) So changing capacitors (in the power supply at least) is a wise thing to do. Whether they are tantalum's or electrolytic's it might save aggravation in the future. As for changing ALL the tants I counted about 20 per plug-in on the ones I have in my shop. It is going to be a task, so weigh your time, effort and cost vs. probability of their failure. As far as plug-ins go, I have not had one fail yet. The power supply I would not take any chances on, replace them at least. Keep in Touch, Tom --- Paul Jacobson <pj@...> wrote: Tom,__________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. |
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Re: General opinion on 180 series scopes?
John Day
At 09:22 AM 1/22/2007, Kuba Ober wrote:
It is even more fair to say that internally generated heat and electrolytics don't mix well. It has been my experience over 35 years designing equipment that temperature rise due to losses in electrolytics does far more damage than external heat. Although modern, high performance electrolytics are much better (low cost 85C "jelly bean" electro's seem to be no better!) the losses will increase with age, thus so will dissipation and the entire process accelerates.Mike was correct of being on guard with theWhile it's true that electrolytics and heat don't mix all too well, However, the assertion that capacitors are likely to be your biggest problem is pretty valid in most cases. As for 180 series CRO's in general. They were, and remain, good performers. Easy to maintain, easy to find 'donor' instruments for them and with manuals very readily available. I used them very happily until about 1998. The only Tek CRO's I ever liked enough to own were a 475 portable and a 7904 high speed mainframe. But somehow the CRO closest to me for 20 years was a 180 series. I now happily use HP 546xx series DSO's. I never succumbed to the cult of Tek! John |
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Re: General opinion on 180 series scopes?
Mike was correct of being on guard with theWhile it's true that electrolytics and heat don't mix all too well, I'd stay away from such broad "heat is the killer" statements. Reading some Bob Pease and trying things out convinced me that in most cases making things run cool often does zilch for performance. In the end you have to measure worse performance to claim that heat is the enemy. There are some well known things such as leakage currents that scale bad with temperature, but those are either designed-in or other precautions are taken. While I admit that excessive operating temperature in power supplies is typically a sign of a novice or misunderstanding designer, this doesn't equally carry on to other parts of the circuitry. Disclaimer: Modern high integration CPUs are a different story and I won't go into that. Cheers, Kuba |
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Re: General opinion on 180 series scopes?
I have had two 180A scopes in regular use for many years including a
range of plug ins and have not had a single breakdown in all that time. One is populated with an 1803A (bought new in the 70's for BIG bucks) and the other scope with the GP vert amp 1801A I also have the service extenders which Ive never used yet, but now that Ive posted this I will probably have to use them soon! The only hassle Ive had is with the 4 channel plug in I used to use on a 184 The sync take off is after the vertical Very reliable scopes |
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Re: 180A Question
Hi Bruce
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Cant find mention of a H03 Option for 180A in my 77 thro 82 HP catalogues (incomplete) Nearest I can find is Option 003 (no probes) and H49 (remote programming) for a 181 Where did you see option H03 quoted? Rgds John -----Original Message-----
From: hp_agilent_equipment@... [mailto:hp_agilent_equipment@...]On Behalf Of BSugarberg Sent: Monday, 22 January 2007 7:30 AM To: hp_agilent_equipment@... Subject: [hp_agilent_equipment] 180A Question Hello, What is Option HO3 on a 180A scope? Thank you, Bruce WA8TNC |
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Re: General opinion on 180 series scopes, now exchanging electrolitics?
Geoff Blake
On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Harke Smits wrote:
Hi Geoff,Hmm, IIRC the 86222B is a hetrodyne 10MHz to 2.4GHz(ish) sweeper which uses fixed and sweeping oscillators. If your sweeping spurious is that far down I wonder if it is a 2F1-2F2 type signal, which really cannot be avoided. The spec. for non-harmonic spurii is => -25dBc or -30dBc depending on the frequency, so you may not have a fault. However, to answer your question, I would not expect electrolytic capacitor problems would cause a fault as you describe at uwave frequencies. Also IMO the type of capacitor you describe have been the most reliable, but I have had them go s/c and o/c in the past. 73 de Geoff -- Geoff Blake G8GNZ located near Chelmsford, Essex, U.K. Please reply to: geoff (at) palaemon (dot) co (dot) uk Using Linux on Intel & Linux or NetBSD on Sun Sparc platforms Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See <> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This E-mail and any attachment(s) are strictly confidential and is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient please notify <postmaster(at)palaemon.co.uk> and the sender by return and permanently delete the message. You may not disclose, forward or copy this E-mail or any of its attachments to any third party without the prior consent of the sender. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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Re: General opinion on 180 series scopes?
Paul Jacobson
(I could not find specs.I think I might have had A's on the brain - they are infact HP10008B's which according to the result of a search on the Agilent site are a 1:1 voltage passive probe with 1.8M leads. Thanks all for the incredibly informative responses to my query...The response was much more than I hoped for and I feel like I'm going into this purchase far better prepared that I would have otherwise. cheers Paul |
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Re: General opinion on 180 series scopes, now exchanging electrolitics?
--- Geoff Blake <geoff@...> wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Thomas Hejl wrote:Hi Geoff, Do you really suggest to exchange ALL electrolitic caps? Indeed many faults can be cured by changing caps, according to my own experience (I own a lot of affordable so old hp equipment). But what about the glass-sealed silver-colored cilindrical tant's I've always considered extremely reliable? Please advise. I'm currently trying to repair a HP86222b unit that produces a strange sweeping spurious 40 dB down around the otherwise clean centre signal. Best 73 de Harke, PA0HRK <>Chelmsford, Essex, U.K.Geoff Blake G8GNZ located near ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. |
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HP 1661C, Comments
Tomas Larsson
Thinking of getting a HP 1661C Logic Analyzer.
Any comments on this one. Going to use it while developing micro-controller cirquits With best regards Tomas Larsson Sweden for downloads etc. For uploads use the free www.yousendit.com service. and send it to my e-mail address Excellent and cheap hosting, use Verus Amicus Est Tamquam Alter Idem |
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Re: General opinion on 180 series scopes?
Geoff Blake
On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, arthurok wrote:
dipped epoxy tants normally are good or measure close to a dead shortWhat I am suggesting Arthur is block replacing electrolytic capacitors whilst the instrument is apart, is a good investment. The cost of the capacitors is usually quite small compared with fault finding time, and improves the reliability of the instrument markedly. It often clears often difficult to diagnose 'marginal faults. Geoff -- Geoff Blake G8GNZ located near Chelmsford, Essex, U.K. Please reply to: geoff (at) palaemon (dot) co (dot) uk Using Linux on Intel & Linux or NetBSD on Sun Sparc platforms Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See <> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This E-mail and any attachment(s) are strictly confidential and is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient please notify <postmaster(at)palaemon.co.uk> and the sender by return and permanently delete the message. You may not disclose, forward or copy this E-mail or any of its attachments to any third party without the prior consent of the sender. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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Re: General opinion on 180 series scopes?
dipped epoxy tants normally are good or measure close to a dead short
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i use an esr meter + multimeter to check caps "i also have a sprague to6 2 megohmeters and capacitance meters + bridges leakage can be checked in circuit normally ----- Original Message -----
From: Geoff Blake To: hp_agilent_equipment@... Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 3:01 AM Subject: Re: [hp_agilent_equipment] General opinion on 180 series scopes? On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Thomas Hejl wrote: [much snipped] > So changing capacitors (in the power supply at least) > is a wise thing to do. Whether they are tantalum's or > electrolytic's it might save aggravation in the > future. As for changing ALL the tants I counted about > 20 per plug-in on the ones I have in my shop. It is > going to be a task, so weigh your time, effort and > cost vs. probability of their failure. I have worked in the repair/calibration business most my working life, I now own the business.... As to replacing electrolytics, be they aluminium or tantilum, I have a well supported view. For example: We had a batch of instruments come in for refurbishment, about 20 years old, but with no modern equivilent. Most failed calibration by being out of the adjustment range. A few had faults. On investigation of the faulty units, some faults were traced to s/c tantilums. I decided that we would replace ALL the electrolytic capacitors, about 300 in each unit. It is not a too difficult a task, all plug-in boards except the power supply which was easy to remove anyway. Replacing the capacitors cured most of the faults (there are still two to find!), and brought all of those failing calibration back within adjustment range. This is only one of many examples I could quote. I would not like to suggest that one capacitor manufacturer is better or worse than another, nor is there one instrument manufacturer better/worse than another, but what I would suggest is, whilst you have a twenty year old instrument apart, and thus have the opportunity, consider replacing ALL electrolytic capacitors. Another good tip, which all the 'old hands' here will know, is if you are experiencing a fault which has no obvious cause, and affects more than one area or function, thoroughly check the power supplies...... Geoff -- Geoff Blake G8GNZ located near Chelmsford, Essex, U.K. Please reply to: geoff (at) palaemon (dot) co (dot) uk Using Linux on Intel & Linux or NetBSD on Sun Sparc platforms Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See <> ---------------------------------------------------------- This E-mail and any attachment(s) are strictly confidential and is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient please notify <postmaster(at)palaemon.co.uk> and the sender by return and permanently delete the message. You may not disclose, forward or copy this E-mail or any of its attachments to any third party without the prior consent of the sender. ---------------------------------------------------------- |
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Re: General opinion on 180 series scopes?
a 465 non b version is a good choice
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im into mostly tek scopes the early 2213 and 2215 scopes wernt that good the triggering on the 180 type scopes is alot better then 465/475 triggering alot of the older 180 scopes have weak crts. the 465 is a 100 mhz scope and was built in huge numbers stay away from the 465m modular / military scopes. the 180/182 is a plug in scope like 7000 series hp never made scopes in the quantities that tek did ----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Hejl To: hp_agilent_equipment@... Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 2:21 AM Subject: Re: [hp_agilent_equipment] General opinion on 180 series scopes? Paul, According to list and description of the 180 series scope that you gave, the 180C would appear to be the best buy. Most probes are of the passive type (they do not need an external additional power source to operate). The X10 or 10X probes that I mentioned should be passive as well. Check with the seller on the specifications of them (I could not find specs. right away on the HP10008A). If you are on a budget (as most of us are), then there are still other scopes that may perform as well and are less expensive. A few in mind are the Tektronix 2213 and the 2215 at 60MHz and the 465 at 50MHz. These are rather inexpensive, non-modular and are newer machines than the 180's (which were made around 1987). If the only choices you have are the 180's then stay with the 180C (The 184 might be overkill). Mike was correct of being on guard with the capacitors. Heat is the biggest killer of electronic components. More heat is generated from the units power supply then probably anywhere else. It is these capacitors that need the most attention. Tantalum caps are both inexpensive and stable. That is why manufacturers use them so often. When a circuit requires stabilization in performance, tants are caps of choice. Their biggest draw back is when they fail. (In particular the dipped ones.) There will be no warning. Some will simply short out internally and work one day but not the next. Others will go like a fire cracker sending carbon smoke throughout the unit with the sound of a pop. Electrolytic caps will give some warning sometimes. They may start to bulge out. Performance gets weaker due to poor ESR. See samples here at: (If you ever do decide to replace any cap., make sure it is made from a reliable manufacturer. Dell Computer had a problem with caps a few years back due to the purchase of bad caps from a poor source.) So changing capacitors (in the power supply at least) is a wise thing to do. Whether they are tantalum's or electrolytic's it might save aggravation in the future. As for changing ALL the tants I counted about 20 per plug-in on the ones I have in my shop. It is going to be a task, so weigh your time, effort and cost vs. probability of their failure. As far as plug-ins go, I have not had one fail yet. The power supply I would not take any chances on, replace them at least. Keep in Touch, Tom --- Paul Jacobson <pj@...> wrote: > Tom, > > thanks so much for such an informative response. > in regards to the digital what i *think* i need is > to be able to view > two clock pulses simultaneously to ensure their > timing alignment with > each other is correct. so if I understand right the > 180's with 50mhz > vert/horizontal plugins would be sufficient. > > what is available is: > 180A with 1801A, 1821A (approx $280AU) > 180C with 1801A, 1821A (approx $320AU) > 184C with 1805A, 1825A (approx $480AU) > all of these units come with 10008A passive voltage > probes, so I > think i'd need to factor in buying x10 probes? > > The 184C is pushing the boundaries $ wise. The 180C > looks be in the > better condition cosmetically of the 180's as the > plugins on the 180A > don't appear to align quite right in the mainframe. > > Checking the 180C service manual d/l'd from BAMA, it > appears to be > all discrete componentry, which is a bit reassuring > if something does > break. > > I've been advised to replace all the tantalum caps > on units of this > age. Is that reasonable advice? > > > cheers > Paul > __________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. |
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Re: General opinion on 180 series scopes?
Geoff Blake
On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Thomas Hejl wrote:
[much snipped] So changing capacitors (in the power supply at least)I have worked in the repair/calibration business most my working life, I now own the business.... As to replacing electrolytics, be they aluminium or tantilum, I have a well supported view. For example: We had a batch of instruments come in for refurbishment, about 20 years old, but with no modern equivilent. Most failed calibration by being out of the adjustment range. A few had faults. On investigation of the faulty units, some faults were traced to s/c tantilums. I decided that we would replace ALL the electrolytic capacitors, about 300 in each unit. It is not a too difficult a task, all plug-in boards except the power supply which was easy to remove anyway. Replacing the capacitors cured most of the faults (there are still two to find!), and brought all of those failing calibration back within adjustment range. This is only one of many examples I could quote. I would not like to suggest that one capacitor manufacturer is better or worse than another, nor is there one instrument manufacturer better/worse than another, but what I would suggest is, whilst you have a twenty year old instrument apart, and thus have the opportunity, consider replacing ALL electrolytic capacitors. Another good tip, which all the 'old hands' here will know, is if you are experiencing a fault which has no obvious cause, and affects more than one area or function, thoroughly check the power supplies...... Geoff -- Geoff Blake G8GNZ located near Chelmsford, Essex, U.K. Please reply to: geoff (at) palaemon (dot) co (dot) uk Using Linux on Intel & Linux or NetBSD on Sun Sparc platforms Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See <> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This E-mail and any attachment(s) are strictly confidential and is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient please notify <postmaster(at)palaemon.co.uk> and the sender by return and permanently delete the message. You may not disclose, forward or copy this E-mail or any of its attachments to any third party without the prior consent of the sender. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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Re: HP 1631D Acq Error
Ive got a pair of 1631D units
ie 2channel cro with 43 channel logic analyser and heaps of pods. One has an analog offset error on both channels, if you select an offset of more than +12 then a 5v signal goes off screen on the 25v range, or something like that, has been a while... If you get your errors with all pods unplugged then might be ack board inside unit, otherwise overvolt damage to pod interface ie digital inputs seems common, though they should handle up to 18v I understand at least. Heard of an acquaintance that fried a trigger input on one pod, was quite easy to fix, dont recall details as it was some 15 years ago, cheers mike At 01:56 PM 22/01/07, you wrote: Hello,Regards Mike * GMC/VK/VL Commodore & Calais FuseRail that wont warp or melt ! * High grade VL/Skyline milspec ignition driver electronics now in development * Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars |
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Re: HP 1631D Acq Error
Maurice,
When the 1631D goes through its self-test, does it include the pods as well? Does the service require a HP 5005B or can a HP 5004 do as well? Using the 1652B to trouble shoot the 1631D might be your best way for now unless you can have a friend with a HP500x. I say "for now" until I can my 1631D out of storage and take a quick look at it. Tom --- MauriceS_65 <maurice002@...> wrote: Hello, ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. |
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Re: General opinion on 180 series scopes?
Paul,
According to list and description of the 180 series scope that you gave, the 180C would appear to be the best buy. Most probes are of the passive type (they do not need an external additional power source to operate). The X10 or 10X probes that I mentioned should be passive as well. Check with the seller on the specifications of them (I could not find specs. right away on the HP10008A). If you are on a budget (as most of us are), then there are still other scopes that may perform as well and are less expensive. A few in mind are the Tektronix 2213 and the 2215 at 60MHz and the 465 at 50MHz. These are rather inexpensive, non-modular and are newer machines than the 180's (which were made around 1987). If the only choices you have are the 180's then stay with the 180C (The 184 might be overkill). Mike was correct of being on guard with the capacitors. Heat is the biggest killer of electronic components. More heat is generated from the units power supply then probably anywhere else. It is these capacitors that need the most attention. Tantalum caps are both inexpensive and stable. That is why manufacturers use them so often. When a circuit requires stabilization in performance, tants are caps of choice. Their biggest draw back is when they fail. (In particular the dipped ones.) There will be no warning. Some will simply short out internally and work one day but not the next. Others will go like a fire cracker sending carbon smoke throughout the unit with the sound of a pop. Electrolytic caps will give some warning sometimes. They may start to bulge out. Performance gets weaker due to poor ESR. See samples here at: (If you ever do decide to replace any cap., make sure it is made from a reliable manufacturer. Dell Computer had a problem with caps a few years back due to the purchase of bad caps from a poor source.) So changing capacitors (in the power supply at least) is a wise thing to do. Whether they are tantalum's or electrolytic's it might save aggravation in the future. As for changing ALL the tants I counted about 20 per plug-in on the ones I have in my shop. It is going to be a task, so weigh your time, effort and cost vs. probability of their failure. As far as plug-ins go, I have not had one fail yet. The power supply I would not take any chances on, replace them at least. Keep in Touch, Tom --- Paul Jacobson <pj@...> wrote: Tom, ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. |
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HP 1631D Acq Error
MauriceS_65
Hello,
I have a 1631D with the following error on selftest: Acquisition Error: 0F 07 FF FF FF FF FF 00 00 00 00 Which - according to the service manual means: - Incorrect Acq data - Meas complete true when should be false - Meas complete IRQ true when should false - Words remaining. If I pull the master state all together - Acq error shows 0F 87 same Which alsmost sounds like the board is not responding... I checked all connectors, and the LA did pass in the past. I don't know when it stopped passing this test. Any troubleshooting ideas? I don't have access to a HP 5005B signature analyzer, neither another 163x LA to do a board swap. And I guess the 1630/31 Analyzer support package is no longer available :-( I do have another LA - a 1652B - so I can start plugging along that way... Maurice |
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