Re: Looking for Noise Source Driver Assembly E4401-60123 for E4407B Spectrum Analyzer
Thanks for the PDF, very interesting reading.
Do you know what is the difference between the NFA and the ESA? I
thought the NFA is just an ESA with the Option 219 card installed and
the 2 ports routed to the front panel.
I searched on Google images to see some pictures with the NFA hardware
shown on the display and I saw they have different boards (part numbers)
installed compared to ESA. I guess it is not just the E4401-60123 board
installed.
I couldn't find any pictures with the NFA hardware to see how it looks
inside.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 02/12/2024 22:21, jmr via groups.io wrote: The E444xA does have the 110 option for a 50 GHz preamp but the noise
figure (and presumably also the input VSWR) of the preamp limits the
performance across the upper parts of the frequency range.
The older version of the 5989-5065EN noise figure selection document can
be found here:
5989-8056EN-05-5-10.indd <
an/5989-8056EN.pdf>
This includes graphs for the ESA and the 8970B.
I think the reason the ESA and 8970B aren't listed in the later version
of the above document is that they are now classed as obsolete. So is
the E444xA analyser.
|
Re: Looking for Noise Source Driver Assembly E4401-60123 for E4407B Spectrum Analyzer
Hi,
?
there is a similar graph of uncertainties, but with VERY different axis scales, in 5989-8056EN dated May 12 2008. It also shows that the NF option for the ESA analyzers to be less than wonderful.??
?
https://assets.testequity.com/te1/Documents/pdf/noise_figure_selection.pdf
?
?
regards
Charles Edmonds
VK3CLE
|
Re: HP 8341B 1992 firmware version
Reasonably sure you will not have a problem - please do report the result.
?
Cheers!
?
Bruce
?
|
Re: Looking for Noise Source Driver Assembly E4401-60123 for E4407B Spectrum Analyzer
The E444xA does have the 110 option for a 50 GHz preamp but the noise figure (and presumably also the input VSWR) of the preamp limits the performance across the upper parts of the frequency range.?
?
The older version of the 5989-5065EN noise figure selection document can be found here:
?
?
This includes graphs for the ESA and the 8970B.
?
I think the reason the ESA and 8970B aren't listed in the later version of the above document is that they are now classed as obsolete. So is the E444xA analyser.
|
Re: Looking for Noise Source Driver Assembly E4401-60123 for E4407B Spectrum Analyzer
In my opinion, the only HPAK spectrum/signal analyser that can be expected to work (very) well with the noise figure option and a 5dB ENR HP 346A noise source is the classic E444xA from about 20 years ago.
?
The ESA analysers like the E4407B don't have a fully digital IF and the DANL with the preamp is a few dB worse than the E444xA. This all adds to the uncertainty. I definitely don't recommend using the ESA analysers for noise figure stuff unless you opt for the 346B noise source with its 15dB ENR and you don't expect to ever measure any amplifiers with very low noise figures.
?
The more modern PXA, MXA and EXA analysers have a very good digital IF but the RF converter ahead of the digital IF isn't in the same class as the converter in the old E444xA analysers. The DANL of the PXA/MXA/EXA is quite a bit worse and the noise floor rises quite a bit by 3GHz or so. So these analysers are disappointing too. They are better than the ESA in this respect but still not close to the performance of the E444xA when it comes to noise figure measurements.
?
The E444xA is the only one that can compete with the dedicated noise figure analysers. In some aspects of its performance it is slightly superior to the dedicated analysers and in others it slightly loses out. Either way, there is very little difference between them although the E444xA preamp only covers up to 3 GHz. So this limits the frequency range that it can deliver good noise figure measurements.
?
?
|
Re: VNA Resonance Methodology
For comparison, here's my Q-measurement of a 6.2?H air coil? at?? 8.28MHz
Measured with the HP4342A?? Q=221???? VNWA shunt-through measurement see graph.
|
Re: HP 1725A no horizontal deflection
I checked all power rails again, no problem.
?
The I worked backwards from the deflection plate drivers (A13), injected some signal, and got deflection. Worked back to Q23/S24 on A8, and get deflection. From there, I have difficulties to understand the schematics. Where does the signal come from?
|
HP 1725A no horizontal deflection
Hi all, I have a HP 1725A 'scope here, with no horizontal deflection.
?
Vertikal deflection is working fine, I get a vertical line if I feed it with a sinus, or two dots when i feed it a square wave.
?
Horizontal position can be changes from left side out of screen to about 2cm from left. I tried X-Y-mode, and even then there is no horizontal deflection.
?
Before investigationg it further, I would like to ask if there is a common failure mode in these scopes? Any hints where to start?
?
Thanks, Peter
|
Re: Shielded probe cables?
It is the 5032, , I was typing from memory and the manufacturer name probably stuck because it is the software I see the most. It has a nice dev kit and I have written decodes for the HP1000 A series memory for a project.
?
You can set custom levels to using cannibalised HP probes might be a good idea. Let me see what I can find.
|
Re: Looking for Noise Source Driver Assembly E4401-60123 for E4407B Spectrum Analyzer
Charles,
Many thanks for this graph. It is very interesting as it also
mentions the good old (and still very useful) HP8970B NFA.
Googling the doc number in your message comes up with the doc:
"Minimize Noise Figure Uncertainties", apparently a newer version.
Same graph but no HP8970B here. The minimum uncertainty is quite a
bit higher than what I normally see: +/- 0.1 dB. Interesting
stuff: noise figure measurement.
Best 73 de
Harke PA0HRK
On 02/12/2024 01:56, Charles Edmonds
via groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Olaf,
?
before you pursue this option further you might like to read
some of the manufacturer's documentation on that option. An
early version of 5989-8056EN
included the below plot which includes the ESA with Option 219
to other systems. Basically it shows that Option 219
in the ESA spectrum analysers has such high uncertainties that
it is rather useless when measuring modern equipment. I also
note, from only a very quick browse, that the current version of
5989-8056EN
does not include this chart and in fact makes no mention
of Option 219 for the ESA spectrum analysers.??
?
?
?
regards
Charles Edmonds
VK3CLE
?
?
|
Re: Looking for Noise Source Driver Assembly E4401-60123 for E4407B Spectrum Analyzer
Hello Charles,
Can you please share the 5989-8056EN document you have? I cannot find
it. I would like to read it since I was also looking for the Option 219
card to add it to my ESA.
73,
Razvan
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 02/12/2024 01:56, Charles Edmonds via groups.io wrote: Hi Olaf,
before you pursue this option further you might like to read some of the
manufacturer's documentation on that option. An early version of
5989-8056EN included the below plot which includes the ESA with Option
219 to other systems. Basically it shows that Option 219 in the ESA
spectrum analysers has such high uncertainties that it is rather useless
when measuring modern equipment. I also note, from only a very quick
browse, that the current version of 5989-8056EN does not include this
chart and in fact makes no mention of Option 219 for the ESA spectrum
analysers.
regards
Charles Edmonds
VK3CLE
|
Re: HP 8341B 1992 firmware version
Hi Bruce,
Thanks for the valuable additional information. I'm arranging 8510C with display units with LCD and the latest firmware 8.XX so I wanted to know if my 8341B will work. But I will try then without any firmware upgardes.
Thanks,
Wojciech
|
Re: Looking for Noise Source Driver Assembly E4401-60123 for E4407B Spectrum Analyzer
Dear Charles, thanks for this valuable feedback.?
I was not aware of this at all, and yes I agree this makes the option almost useless.
I was tempted because of the wide frequency range. Hhwever I now may have to go the classic way and use a external rf-source and mixer?
with my NFA not going that high.?
thanks again, best regards, Olaf, DL8EBL
?
|
Re: Looking for Noise Source Driver Assembly E4401-60123 for E4407B Spectrum Analyzer
Hi Olaf,
?
before you pursue this option further you might like to read some of the manufacturer's documentation on that option. An early version of 5989-8056EN included the below plot which includes the ESA with Option 219 to other systems. Basically it shows that Option 219 in the ESA spectrum analysers has such high uncertainties that it is rather useless when measuring modern equipment. I also note, from only a very quick browse, that the current version of 5989-8056EN does not include this chart and in fact makes no mention of Option 219 for the ESA spectrum analysers.??
?
?
?
regards
Charles Edmonds
VK3CLE
?
?
|
3577 VNA Active Reflectometer Bridge...
Greetings.
?
I have uploaded the Active Reflectometer Bridge design for the 3577 VNA
previously mentioned. The files resides in the file area ...\helpful tools...
?
If anyone wants other format of the Gerber/Drill data, (metric/inch/precision)
please let me know.
?
Ulf Kylenfall
SM6GXV
?
|
Re: 8350A + 83525A mechanical issues
Regards the switch I would look at cutting the broken part off the rocker off put a slot into the plastic where the part of plastic was that had the hole make a metal replacement ?and hold the new metal part? in with small nut and bolts ? Re the N? connecter i assume the N connecter has punched a hole through the aluminium front The front panel on the plug in is easy removed soldering iron for the BNC connecter and disconnect the SMA from the MN connecter get 2 steal washers one either side of the broken front panel and reassemble The RF output coax might be a bit short by the thickness of the washer but hopefully a bit of carful rearrangement of the output coax and all should be good? ? PS if you have the memory batteries still in the unit strongly recommend you remove them or replace them as if they go bad they will kill the 8350 and possibly the plug in from the gases the old battery give off ?the batteries are only there to memorise the last set up manly used for repeated testing on test rig ? All my 8? units have the batteries removed ? Paul South coast UK ? ? ? ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of bumbo.chinelo via groups.io
Sent: 01 December 2024 17:17
To: [email protected]
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8350A + 83525A mechanical issues ? In the last months I've been playing with a HP 8350A + 83525A that probably had a uncontrolled impact with something. After replacing a 7426 on CPU board and rebuilding most of the B.West springs with stuff found on taobao, I'm left with mechanical issues. ?Given my noob level I would really appreciate feedback and suggestions from experts. The first issue is the plastic lever that operates the power switch (image 1). It broke where the metal pin enters. Glue doesn't seem to be an answer; a 3D printer would probably be the best solution but given the cost I'll just continue plug/unplug the cable. Second issue is probably even more complicated. The N connector of the plug in hit something hard and broke the metal fitting inside (image 2). Sorry for the lousy image but haven't decided to take it apart yet given my experience with the reset button of my 5328A (story for another time). This is part of the plug in frame so replacing it means a new plugin very €€€€. Ideas? Last question is about adjustments. The last adjustment in the manual is Marker DAC. Although setting the trigger level is quite tricky (seems easier with a scope) the reading I have is indeed 500 and in some moments 400 however full rotations of A4R28 make no differences. This does not sound very good, but more than adequate for hobbyist use Thanks in advance for any suggestions for and recommendations
|
Re: VNA Resonance Methodology
I'll just post some shots to answer the requests earlier up the thread.
This first one is the set-up I'm using. I have had to resort to some longish leads to connect the items together, but this is only 1.45Mhz so practically DC and shouldn't materially affect the results.
?
The Smith Chart plot for this set-up:
? (does that look right?)
?
The linear plot for the set-up shows the poor Q and why I couldn't get a dip with my meter earlier. I did try the log plot out of interest, but it was so flat you really couldn't see the resonant area at all:
?
I'll try the shunt arrangement in due course, but? I won't have access to the analyzer again for another 2 weeks.
?
?
?
?
|
Looking for Noise Source Driver Assembly E4401-60123 for E4407B Spectrum Analyzer
Dear All,?
I like to extend my Analyzer with the noise measurement option.
Does somebody want to sell a E4401-60123 Board + Cables ?
If yes please drop me a reply or send a pm.?
thanks for reading and best regards , Olaf Kramer
|
Re: Troubleshooting a 8591e with opt 130
Marco, ? This is good news! ? Yves ? ? Some good news, the spectrum analyzer is now passing self cal and conf test with a 300MHz marker at -20dBm at both Log and Lin setting. I was still poking around a bit, found some more (maybe the same )discrepancies between a Factory default cal and Corr Off after a selfcal.? Ended up feeling I could aswell start tweaking the Log amp with the values known from your analyzer. So changed the -8VT with R10 to -7.6V as on yours. Next I wanted to change the TP1 with R23, because your log mode voltage was about -5 and mine -0.5. Ended up seeing the Log amplitude dropping but the voltage not lowering very fast. Ended up using this adjustment to lower the Log amplitude to the same level as the Lin Amplitude, measuring the Cal signal. Now the voltage level is about -2.5V. Anyway, after this change, the analyzer can now do a full self cal and ends up with the correct level.? Later this week i'll see if I can do some additional measurements with it to see if I can find any other faults.?
|
Re: Troubleshooting a 8591e with opt 130
Yves,
?
Some good news, the spectrum analyzer is now passing self cal and conf test with a 300MHz marker at -20dBm at both Log and Lin setting.
?
I was still poking around a bit, found some more (maybe the same )discrepancies between a Factory default cal and Corr Off after a selfcal.?
?
Ended up feeling I could aswell start tweaking the Log amp with the values known from your analyzer. So changed the -8VT with R10 to -7.6V as on yours.
Next I wanted to change the TP1 with R23, because your log mode voltage was about -5 and mine -0.5. Ended up seeing the Log amplitude dropping but the voltage not lowering very fast. Ended up using this adjustment to lower the Log amplitude to the same level as the Lin Amplitude, measuring the Cal signal. Now the voltage level is about -2.5V.
Anyway, after this change, the analyzer can now do a full self cal and ends up with the correct level.?
Later this week i'll see if I can do some additional measurements with it to see if I can find any other faults.?
?
Marco
|
Anders
Paul Bicknell
Jinxie