Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

Lothar baier

Back when I worked at UT as a research engineer we had a laser cutting system for MMIC Dies , it was a interesting device but required a lot of skill and experience to use ,  when you looked through the scope it looked like carpet bombing ?

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bryce Schroeder via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

I've looked at the laser'd traces from above a lot, tested their isolation with a megger, etc and found them all satisfactory, but I don't know how the roughness is side-on. It would be interesting to investigate. The laser is fundamentally a pulsed device, but the pulse rate is in the 10s of kHz (up to maybe a MHz depending on the particular kind of laser) and cutting through even ordinary half oz copper is a lot of individual passes. Definitely something to investigate.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 at 22:19, Lothar baier <Lothar@...> wrote:

If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than 
the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has 
to be considered is the roughness of the edges
On Mar 18, 2022, at 21:04, Dave McGuire via groups.io <mcguire@...> wrote:

?On 3/18/22 21:57, Bryce Schroeder wrote:
Yes, it can hold 50 micron / 2 thou trace separation. I am in the
(slow) process of preparing a complete tutorial and open-source 
tool chain. (It works, but actually using it at this point is quite 
an undertaking for software reasons. I only just last year reverse 
engineered the proprietary protocol used by the engraver:
 ) The calibration process is 
also somewhat involved, but it's important (I imagine especially if 
you are doing microwave filters and other things where the 
dimensions are highly critical to be accurate not just precise.) Nice!  I'll look forward to your tutorial.

The engraver I'm using is an inexpensive (relatively) Chinese one.
They don't really have a brand name, but the control board is 
Beijing Golden Orange (Bejing JCZ) and the laser source is usually 
JPT or Raycus. A 20W one will work fine though 30 or 50 W should be faster.
They cost $2-3 grand, though, so this may be cost prohibitive if 
you don't do a lot of PCBs. I design probably twenty PCBs per year, so in-house prototypes would be a big deal here.  I just try to interleave my tasks so OshPark's two-week delay doesn't impact me too much, but every now and then clients demand faster service.  $2-3K would be difficult right now, since production runs have basically stopped due to component availability issues, but hopefully that will clear up before too long.

          -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

Lothar baier

#123943

With FR-4 you definatly have issues with ER lot variations this is why you use materials like rogers 4350B

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

On 3/18/22 22:19, Lothar baier wrote:
If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than 
the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has 
to be considered is the roughness of the edges   Yes.  There's a great deal of activity in building replacement boards and modules for instruments like ours (trying to bring this further on-topic), so if the results there are adequate, this does open up some possibilities.  One thing that causes trouble with the more affordable board houses is that sometimes they change substrate compositions, so the published dielectric constant isn't always something you can count on.

            -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

#123942

Whether or not a board under etches traces, or over etches traces
is entirely dependent on the resist used.

Insulating resists don't create any fields in the tank, so they
tend to over etch the traces: \^^^^^^^^/ .

Metallic resists (gold, solder) do create electric fields that
electrolytically deflect the etching action away from the resist,
so they tend to under etch the traces:  /^^^^^^^^^\ .

(Or is it the other way around?  It has been so long ago.)

-Chuck Harris


On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 00:52:13 +0000 "Lothar baier"
<Lothar@...> wrote:
Eventually dad bought a etch tank from isel , it used a different
cchemical (ammonia persulphate )  and the agitation was done by the
means of air bubbles generated by a airpump ! The problem with ferric
chloride was that while it worked great for most boards dad did I had
issues with under etching on my microwave boards 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Zentronics42
via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 6:27 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: BS, was Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

I still etch with ferric chloride here at the house. But I do use an
earth sciences Hot shaker table with a water bath rather than food
prep area. So at least some improvement.

Zen

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 6:55 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: BS, was Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

Oh lord , I remember me and dad etching circuit boards using ferric
chloride solution on the kitchen stove 
On Mar 18, 2022, at 17:22, Dave McGuire via groups.io
<mcguire@...> wrote:

?On 3/18/22 18:00, Zentronics42@... wrote:  
   Zen is one of my names I guess. Living in the digital age you
seem to collect things like names. I have gone by Zenwizard on
line for going on 25 years now. For off line use I am an Eric,
however there are also some that know me as Adain (there is a LONG
off topic story there).   Ah, sorta.  I've been living in that same digital age, but never
did the nickname thing.  We don't have rigid rules here, but this
is a mailing list of mostly professional types, so we do prefer the
use of given names.  I'm by no means bossing you around on that,
but just consider it a light suggestion from a list moderator.

 Either way, welcome!
  
I am honestly looking to push the lab in to the RF space. But even
now the gear is cost prohibitive to acquire at a rapid pace. I
have recently (with in the last year) been able to acquire proper
spectrum analyzers for the lab. HP E4411B and HP 8596E.  I have my
10 Mhz reference sorted this year as well. So lab building is
going well but it is slow. I am targeting some VNA and some
microwave equipment as well as precision DC and calibration
standards. I am in to the expensive toys it seems.   RF is great fun, and a wonderful thing to sink your teeth into.
But yes, it does get expensive.  The "good/fast/cheap (pick any
two)" rule applies here; amazing deals can be had if you're
patient, but personally I think patience isn't all it's cracked up
to be.  If we keep waiting, by the time we're dead, we'll have
great stuff...No thanks!  But really good deals do come along from
time to time, if you're lucky.

 Your E4411B and 8596E are a great start.  You'll need some good
signal sources too, and a good microwave counter.  Next would
probably be a power meter.  Fortunately these are all pretty easy
to come by, with the possible exception of a sensor for the power
meter. 
   As for background it is extremely wide and varied. But most of
it has been electronics based, computer based, or getting the two
to talk to each other in some way. I'll also be taking two
students to their first swap meet in a few months... their first
one will be the Dayton Hamvention. So we are going to start
small?   Hahaaa yes, trial by fire indeed. ;)  If their minds aren't
totally blown by that, they might survive! B-)

 I'm about 4.5hrs East of Dayton; I may have some gear for you, but
you'd need some car space.  That may be a challenge after
Dayton. ;)  I also run the Large Scale Systems Museum (google it)
which you might find interesting, if it would be convenient for you
to extend that Hamvention road trip.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA




  

Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

Lothar baier

#123941

开云体育

A few words on FR-4 and RF boards ,? FR-4 generally “works”? ok for RF boards up to 2GHz but if you use coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers you are going to have the time of your life getting repeatable results !

First of the dielectric constant of FR-4 is not tightly controlled and can vary from batch to batch , dielectric loss is also higher compared to microwave materials !

Generally for most applications rogers 4350 or 4003 are popular ,? the cost is competitive , the boards are fairly ridged comparable to FR4 and most FR4 lines can process them with no problems making it easy for board manufacturers .

For mm wave applications or if extremely low losses are required 5880 or 5880 are commonly used but those substrates require special processing especially for plated through holes and the materials are expensive

?

Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Jim Ford via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

?

Definitely true for garden-variety FR-4 board material.? For serious microwave work, say >6GHz, you'd want a more stable material, like those made by Roger's, Isola, etc.

?

Jim Ford

?

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device

?

-------- Original message --------

From: Dave McGuire <mcguire@...>

Date: 3/18/22 7:22 PM (GMT-08:00)

To: [email protected]

Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

?

On 3/18/22 22:19, Lothar baier wrote:
> If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has to be considered is the roughness of the edges

?? Yes.? There's a great deal of activity in building replacement boards
and modules for instruments like ours (trying to bring this further
on-topic), so if the results there are adequate, this does open up some
possibilities.? One thing that causes trouble with the more affordable
board houses is that sometimes they change substrate compositions, so
the published dielectric constant isn't always something you can count on.

??????????? -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

#123940

Back in 1972, when I worked for DEI, I did photo resist
application on circuit boards, and it is trivial.  

We had a stainless steel rectangular tank, big enough so
you could vertically dip the biggest card we did, but small
enough so that it held a minimal amount of chemicals.  The
tank was bent out of sheet metal in our shop, and had a 
little S.S. lid, like a gift box, that covered the tank when
we weren't using it.

We cleaned the copper until it was shiny, and did a final 
clean with tri-chlor, and then simply dipped it in the KPR
and extracted it, letting it drip dry in a dark space.

It's that easy.

I am sure that someone still makes KPR, though I have no
idea who.

Exposure was done as a contact print, with a small carbon
arc lamp as the source.  It was developed by dipping the
exposed board in tri-chlor, where the unexposed KPR would
wash away.

-Chuck Harris


On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 01:04:22 +0000 "Lothar baier"
<Lothar@...> wrote:
I stopped doing it years ago mainly because the materials I mostly
use ( Rogers 4350,6010)  are not available with photo resist coating
and if you send them out for coating than the lot charge is quite
high ,also the process for plating through at home is not easy to do
and requires quite nasty chemicals so I resort nowadays to just have
the boards made by a board shop 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bryce
Schroeder via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:59 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: BS, was Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

I've started "etching" PCBs with a fiber laser engraver. The bog
standard 1064 nm ones can do it, which somewhat surprised me. Glad to
not have to coat PCBs in photosensitive goo anymore since the laser
can remove copper and solder mask selectively. (Well, I still need
goo for silk screen, but that is much less critical.)

Re: Agilent 3458A Troubleshooting

tmillermdems

#123939

开云体育

You can get the clip from Artekmedia. The first step is always to check all the low voltage power supply voltages. The calibration on the 3458a just needs a precision 10 volt reference and an accurate 10 k resistor. It is a wondeful instrument but repair and cal Keysight is a bit painful. It is still in production.

Regards and good luck.

On 3/18/2022 10:30 PM, Labguy wrote:

I am trying to restore an HP3458A DVM and I need a little help.

I acquired this unit on ePay some time ago and I finally found some time to check it out. The outside and inside are both neat and clean. The build date is 1988, but someone has maintained over the years, because it has the latest firmware ROMs fitted (Rev 9). The Dallas NV RAMs are 2012, so they are nearing end of life. It is fitted with Option 002? Improved DC reference stability 4 ppm/year(!). The Cal sticker says it was last calibrated in 2013.

A visual check of the PCBs revealed nothing obvious, so after setting the mains switch to 230V I decided to power it up. I was greeted with a sizzle and an acrid smell. I have been there before with other old test gear - the Schaffner mains filter kacked itself. So I ordered a new one and replaced it.

When I powered the unit on again, I was greeted with a short BEEP and the first rectangular block of the green electroluminescent display flashes ON and OFF. That's as far as it gets. I have searched the Agilent manuals, all the info I could find on the internet and watched some excellent Youtube clips on repairing and calibrating 3458A's. I cannot find any troubleshooting reference for a flashing single character block on the display.

I am thinking there may be something wrong with the firmware code in one of the EPROMs that is causing it to hang while booting. I have an EPROM reader/burner, but I am reluctant to go there until I am sure I have to. I would be most grateful for any advice anyone may care to offer.

Cheers,
George

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

Re: Agilent 3458A Troubleshooting

#123938

On a quick note - just wanted to congratulate you for the score - assuming you didn't pay an arm and a leg for it (as they tend to go for, last I checked).?

Good luck with the repair! I'm certain this group will help to reach a positive resolution.

Radu.?

Show quoted text

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 7:32 PM Labguy <georgg@...> wrote:

I am trying to restore an HP3458A DVM and I need a little help.

I acquired this unit on ePay some time ago and I finally found some time to check it out. The outside and inside are both neat and clean. The build date is 1988, but someone has maintained over the years, because it has the latest firmware ROMs fitted (Rev 9). The Dallas NV RAMs are 2012, so they are nearing end of life. It is fitted with Option 002? Improved DC reference stability 4 ppm/year(!). The Cal sticker says it was last calibrated in 2013.

A visual check of the PCBs revealed nothing obvious, so after setting the mains switch to 230V I decided to power it up. I was greeted with a sizzle and an acrid smell. I have been there before with other old test gear - the Schaffner mains filter kacked itself. So I ordered a new one and replaced it.

When I powered the unit on again, I was greeted with a short BEEP and the first rectangular block of the green electroluminescent display flashes ON and OFF. That's as far as it gets. I have searched the Agilent manuals, all the info I could find on the internet and watched some excellent Youtube clips on repairing and calibrating 3458A's. I cannot find any troubleshooting reference for a flashing single character block on the display.

I am thinking there may be something wrong with the firmware code in one of the EPROMs that is causing it to hang while booting. I have an EPROM reader/burner, but I am reluctant to go there until I am sure I have to. I would be most grateful for any advice anyone may care to offer.

Cheers,
George

Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

#123937

开云体育

Definitely true for garden-variety FR-4 board material.? For serious microwave work, say >6GHz, you'd want a more stable material, like those made by Roger's, Isola, etc.

Jim Ford

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device

Show quoted text

-------- Original message --------

From: Dave McGuire <mcguire@...>

Date: 3/18/22 7:22 PM (GMT-08:00)

To: [email protected]

Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

On 3/18/22 22:19, Lothar baier wrote:
> If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has to be considered is the roughness of the edges

?? Yes.? There's a great deal of activity in building replacement boards
and modules for instruments like ours (trying to bring this further
on-topic), so if the results there are adequate, this does open up some
possibilities.? One thing that causes trouble with the more affordable
board houses is that sometimes they change substrate compositions, so
the published dielectric constant isn't always something you can count on.

??????????? -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Agilent 3458A Troubleshooting

#123936

I am trying to restore an HP3458A DVM and I need a little help.

I acquired this unit on ePay some time ago and I finally found some time to check it out. The outside and inside are both neat and clean. The build date is 1988, but someone has maintained over the years, because it has the latest firmware ROMs fitted (Rev 9). The Dallas NV RAMs are 2012, so they are nearing end of life. It is fitted with Option 002? Improved DC reference stability 4 ppm/year(!). The Cal sticker says it was last calibrated in 2013.

A visual check of the PCBs revealed nothing obvious, so after setting the mains switch to 230V I decided to power it up. I was greeted with a sizzle and an acrid smell. I have been there before with other old test gear - the Schaffner mains filter kacked itself. So I ordered a new one and replaced it.

When I powered the unit on again, I was greeted with a short BEEP and the first rectangular block of the green electroluminescent display flashes ON and OFF. That's as far as it gets. I have searched the Agilent manuals, all the info I could find on the internet and watched some excellent Youtube clips on repairing and calibrating 3458A's. I cannot find any troubleshooting reference for a flashing single character block on the display.

I am thinking there may be something wrong with the firmware code in one of the EPROMs that is causing it to hang while booting. I have an EPROM reader/burner, but I am reluctant to go there until I am sure I have to. I would be most grateful for any advice anyone may care to offer.

Cheers,
George

Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

Lothar baier

#123935

Laser toner wont work for microwave circuits for a variety of reasons….. 
The way i did my boards was to plot out a layout magnified 10:1 , then dad took the thing to work and used a repro camera to scale it and create a negative film , the film was put on a photo resist coated board , exposed and developed.
Once developed the bare copper showed where the traces would be , the board then went into a plating tank and was gold or silver plated , once the plating was done board was stripped and etched.

Show quoted text

On Mar 18, 2022, at 21:19, Lothar baier <Lothar@...> wrote:

?If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has to be considered is the roughness of the edges

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 18, 2022, at 21:04, Dave McGuire via groups.io <mcguire@...> wrote:

?On 3/18/22 21:57, Bryce Schroeder wrote:
Yes, it can hold 50 micron / 2 thou trace separation. I am in the
(slow) process of preparing a complete tutorial and open-source tool
chain. (It works, but actually using it at this point is quite an
undertaking for software reasons. I only just last year reverse
engineered the proprietary protocol used by the engraver:
 ) The calibration process is also
somewhat involved, but it's important (I imagine especially if you are
doing microwave filters and other things where the dimensions are
highly critical to be accurate not just precise.)Nice!  I'll look forward to your tutorial.

The engraver I'm using is an inexpensive (relatively) Chinese one.
They don't really have a brand name, but the control board is Beijing
Golden Orange (Bejing JCZ) and the laser source is usually JPT or
Raycus. A 20W one will work fine though 30 or 50 W should be faster.
They cost $2-3 grand, though, so this may be cost prohibitive if you
don't do a lot of PCBs.I design probably twenty PCBs per year, so in-house prototypes would be a big deal here.  I just try to interleave my tasks so OshPark's two-week delay doesn't impact me too much, but every now and then clients demand faster service.  $2-3K would be difficult right now, since production runs have basically stopped due to component availability issues, but hopefully that will clear up before too long.

         -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

#123934

Sure, Dave, I'll send you an email off list to request the address. Thanks!

Show quoted text

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 at 22:20, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:

On 3/18/22 22:14, Lothar baier wrote:
Would be interesting to look at the edges of the traces under a Microscope or SEM and compare against etched boards   I have an SEM in my lab.  Bryce, if you can send me over a small
sample, I'd be glad to do some imaging.

            -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

#123933

I've looked at the laser'd traces from above a lot, tested their
isolation with a megger, etc and found them all satisfactory, but I
don't know how the roughness is side-on. It would be interesting to
investigate. The laser is fundamentally a pulsed device, but the pulse
rate is in the 10s of kHz (up to maybe a MHz depending on the
particular kind of laser) and cutting through even ordinary half oz
copper is a lot of individual passes. Definitely something to
investigate.

Show quoted text

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 at 22:19, Lothar baier <Lothar@...> wrote:

If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has to be considered is the roughness of the edges
On Mar 18, 2022, at 21:04, Dave McGuire via groups.io <mcguire@...> wrote:

?On 3/18/22 21:57, Bryce Schroeder wrote:
Yes, it can hold 50 micron / 2 thou trace separation. I am in the
(slow) process of preparing a complete tutorial and open-source tool
chain. (It works, but actually using it at this point is quite an
undertaking for software reasons. I only just last year reverse
engineered the proprietary protocol used by the engraver:
 ) The calibration process is also
somewhat involved, but it's important (I imagine especially if you are
doing microwave filters and other things where the dimensions are
highly critical to be accurate not just precise.) Nice!  I'll look forward to your tutorial.

The engraver I'm using is an inexpensive (relatively) Chinese one.
They don't really have a brand name, but the control board is Beijing
Golden Orange (Bejing JCZ) and the laser source is usually JPT or
Raycus. A 20W one will work fine though 30 or 50 W should be faster.
They cost $2-3 grand, though, so this may be cost prohibitive if you
don't do a lot of PCBs. I design probably twenty PCBs per year, so in-house prototypes would be a big deal here.  I just try to interleave my tasks so OshPark's two-week delay doesn't impact me too much, but every now and then clients demand faster service.  $2-3K would be difficult right now, since production runs have basically stopped due to component availability issues, but hopefully that will clear up before too long.

          -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

#123932

On 3/18/22 22:19, Lothar baier wrote:
If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has to be considered is the roughness of the edges  Yes.  There's a great deal of activity in building replacement boards and modules for instruments like ours (trying to bring this further on-topic), so if the results there are adequate, this does open up some possibilities.  One thing that causes trouble with the more affordable board houses is that sometimes they change substrate compositions, so the published dielectric constant isn't always something you can count on.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

#123931

On 3/18/22 22:14, Lothar baier wrote:
Would be interesting to look at the edges of the traces under a Microscope or SEM and compare against etched boards  I have an SEM in my lab.  Bryce, if you can send me over a small sample, I'd be glad to do some imaging.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

Lothar baier

#123930

If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has to be considered is the roughness of the edges

Show quoted text

On Mar 18, 2022, at 21:04, Dave McGuire via groups.io <mcguire@...> wrote:

?On 3/18/22 21:57, Bryce Schroeder wrote:
Yes, it can hold 50 micron / 2 thou trace separation. I am in the
(slow) process of preparing a complete tutorial and open-source tool
chain. (It works, but actually using it at this point is quite an
undertaking for software reasons. I only just last year reverse
engineered the proprietary protocol used by the engraver:
 ) The calibration process is also
somewhat involved, but it's important (I imagine especially if you are
doing microwave filters and other things where the dimensions are
highly critical to be accurate not just precise.) Nice!  I'll look forward to your tutorial.

The engraver I'm using is an inexpensive (relatively) Chinese one.
They don't really have a brand name, but the control board is Beijing
Golden Orange (Bejing JCZ) and the laser source is usually JPT or
Raycus. A 20W one will work fine though 30 or 50 W should be faster.
They cost $2-3 grand, though, so this may be cost prohibitive if you
don't do a lot of PCBs. I design probably twenty PCBs per year, so in-house prototypes would be a big deal here.  I just try to interleave my tasks so OshPark's two-week delay doesn't impact me too much, but every now and then clients demand faster service.  $2-3K would be difficult right now, since production runs have basically stopped due to component availability issues, but hopefully that will clear up before too long.

          -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

Lothar baier

#123929

Would be interesting to look at the edges of the traces under a Microscope or SEM and compare against etched boards

Show quoted text

On Mar 18, 2022, at 21:01, Lothar baier <Lothar@...> wrote:

?There are different reasons for this ,  first of I use AWR MWO to design and simulate circuits so in order for the simulations to match or come close to the actual build you need to have defined tolerances and you have to be able to do the through holes in a consistent manner , even if I were to set up at home I would not be able to do this effectively defeating the purpose of using simulation tools .
The second and probably most important reasoning though is that I have a 5 year old granddaughter who has been my shadow since she arrived in this world spends a lot of time at our house and takes a keen interest in anything opa does a curiosity I intent to foster and encourage so having any nasty chemicals around the lab or fumes is not a good idea

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 8:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

  Just yankin' your chain.. ;)  I've done ferric chloride etching too, way back when, and got yelled at by my grandmother about holes in my jeans.  Now I send my Gerbers off to OshPark for prototypes, and get production boards made by the big board houses.  There are plenty of nasty chemicals in my mostly-electronics lab, but no PCB etchants.

          -Dave

On 3/18/22 21:51, Lothar baier wrote:
I still design circuits , I build them and I test them so I am still 
doing about 80% of the work

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] 
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire 
via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 8:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

On 3/18/22 21:04, Lothar baier wrote:
I stopped doing it years ago mainly because the materials I mostly 
use ( Rogers 4350,6010)  are not available with photo resist coating 
and if you send them out for coating than the lot charge is quite 
high ,also the process for plating through at home is not easy to do 
and requires quite nasty chemicals so I resort nowadays to just have 
the boards made by a board shop   Hey wait, weren't you the guy who was just complaining that nobody 
does anything anymore? ;)

              -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: HP83595A/B (HP 8350) ROM firmware required

#123928

If you don't need version 7 specifically, version 9 for 83595 is available from the KO4BB archive:

           -Dave

Show quoted text

On 3/18/22 22:02, Yves Tardif wrote:
Hi, I have 8350B ver7 with 83595A with version 3, have you found firmware V7 for plugin 83595A ?
Is there a version 7 for this plugin?
*De?:*[email protected] <[email protected]> *De la part de* Yue
*贰苍惫辞测é?:* 8 novembre 2021 22:22
*??:* [email protected]
*Objet?:* [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP83595A/B (HP 8350) ROM firmware required
Hello!
Any one has an 83595 plugin (HP 8350) with firmware rev.7 ? I need the U1 U2 ROM contents to make it work with 8510B. At this moment I only found the rev. 4 on KO4BB, and seems only the rev.7 work with 8510B.
If you got an 83595 with firmware rev.7 please upload the ROM content to KO4BB, and/or let me know.
Thanks lot !
p.s? to check the plugin firmware revision:? switch 8510B on [ shift ] [ 99 ]. Look the number shows on the plugin display.

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: HP83595A/B (HP 8350) ROM firmware required

Lothar baier

#123927

开云体育

Just out of curiosity why dont you upgrade your 8510B to a C ?

Show quoted text

On Mar 18, 2022, at 21:02, Yves Tardif via groups.io <yves_tardif@...> wrote:

?

Hi, I have 8350B ver7 with 83595A with version 3, have you found firmware V7 for plugin 83595A ?

Is there a version 7 for this plugin?

?

De?: [email protected] <[email protected]> De la part de Yue
贰苍惫辞测é?: 8 novembre 2021 22:22
??: [email protected]
Objet?: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP83595A/B (HP 8350) ROM firmware required

?

Hello!

Any one has an 83595 plugin (HP 8350) with firmware rev.7 ? I need the U1 U2 ROM contents to make it work with 8510B. At this moment I only found the rev. 4 on KO4BB, and seems only the rev.7 work with 8510B.?

If you got an 83595 with firmware rev.7 please upload the ROM content to KO4BB, and/or let me know.?

Thanks lot !

p.s? to check the plugin firmware revision:? switch 8510B on [ shift ] [ 99 ]. Look the number shows on the plugin display.

Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

#123926

Actually, I don’t use photo resist. I am using the laser toner method of making PCB's still need an etchant but all you need is bare copper, a laser printer (NOT A BROTHER) and a laminator. When I am out of ferric I am thinking about switching to cupric chloride as in theory I should not have much of a waste product. 

Zen

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 10:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

There are different reasons for this ,  first of I use AWR MWO to design and simulate circuits so in order for the simulations to match or come close to the actual build you need to have defined tolerances and you have to be able to do the through holes in a consistent manner , even if I were to set up at home I would not be able to do this effectively defeating the purpose of using simulation tools .
The second and probably most important reasoning though is that I have a 5 year old granddaughter who has been my shadow since she arrived in this world spends a lot of time at our house and takes a keen interest in anything opa does a curiosity I intent to foster and encourage so having any nasty chemicals around the lab or fumes is not a good idea

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 8:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

   Just yankin' your chain.. ;)  I've done ferric chloride etching too, way back when, and got yelled at by my grandmother about holes in my jeans.  Now I send my Gerbers off to OshPark for prototypes, and get production boards made by the big board houses.  There are plenty of nasty chemicals in my mostly-electronics lab, but no PCB etchants.

           -Dave

On 3/18/22 21:51, Lothar baier wrote:
I still design circuits , I build them and I test them so I am still 
doing about 80% of the work

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire 
via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 8:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

On 3/18/22 21:04, Lothar baier wrote:
I stopped doing it years ago mainly because the materials I mostly 
use ( Rogers 4350,6010)  are not available with photo resist coating 
and if you send them out for coating than the lot charge is quite 
high ,also the process for plating through at home is not easy to do 
and requires quite nasty chemicals so I resort nowadays to just have 
the boards made by a board shop    Hey wait, weren't you the guy who was just complaining that nobody 
does anything anymore? ;)

               -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

#123925

On 3/18/22 21:57, Bryce Schroeder wrote:
Yes, it can hold 50 micron / 2 thou trace separation. I am in the
(slow) process of preparing a complete tutorial and open-source tool
chain. (It works, but actually using it at this point is quite an
undertaking for software reasons. I only just last year reverse
engineered the proprietary protocol used by the engraver:
 ) The calibration process is also
somewhat involved, but it's important (I imagine especially if you are
doing microwave filters and other things where the dimensions are
highly critical to be accurate not just precise.)  Nice!  I'll look forward to your tutorial.

The engraver I'm using is an inexpensive (relatively) Chinese one.
They don't really have a brand name, but the control board is Beijing
Golden Orange (Bejing JCZ) and the laser source is usually JPT or
Raycus. A 20W one will work fine though 30 or 50 W should be faster.
They cost $2-3 grand, though, so this may be cost prohibitive if you
don't do a lot of PCBs.  I design probably twenty PCBs per year, so in-house prototypes would be a big deal here.  I just try to interleave my tasks so OshPark's two-week delay doesn't impact me too much, but every now and then clients demand faster service.  $2-3K would be difficult right now, since production runs have basically stopped due to component availability issues, but hopefully that will clear up before too long.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA