?

To start with, the 8516 test set does not use a serial communications scheme. The cable is most likely a parallel cable. Why it was specified as RS-232 is strange, unless the thought was that those were very common so a couple of crossed wires (pins 2 & 3 as I recall) were anticipated. Or, they simply did not use those pins since I doubt they needed 25 conductors anyway. This is based on my experience with the 8753 test sets, however,.

?

?

PALs are combinational logic, such as (using address lines)? A4 and A3 and not A2 and A1 and not A0.

To decode serial data, you need flip-flops, some storage to convert serial to parallel and then act on that.

CPLD's can do that, but with most PAL chips, depending on what's internal, it would be difficult.

Generally, PALs are used to decode address lines to enable a specific chip.

Harvey

?

I know it is labeled RS232 but unfortunately that does not mean a regular RS232 Cable can be used , I looked through the service manual for the 8340B and it indicates the pin numbers on the rear panel connector of the 8340 but it refers to control bit numbers which would indicate a parallel port rather than serial , also the 8516 service manual indicates that the pins are connected to a PAL on the doubler control board , I am a RF not a digital guy but I don’t think you can use a PAL as a serial decoder

?

Sent from for Windows

?

From: gk5220 via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 10:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question

?

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 07:20 AM, Lothar baier wrote:

08516-60009

You might a standard RS232 cable. It's labeled "CABLE ASSEMBLY, RS232" in the 8516A S-Parameter Test Set Operating and Service Manual.
-George

?

?

PALs are combinational logic, such as (using address lines)? A4 and A3 and not A2 and A1 and not A0.

To decode serial data, you need flip-flops, some storage to convert serial to parallel and then act on that.

CPLD's can do that, but with most PAL chips, depending on what's internal, it would be difficult.

Generally, PALs are used to decode address lines to enable a specific chip.

Harvey

?

I know it is labeled RS232 but unfortunately that does not mean a regular RS232 Cable can be used , I looked through the service manual for the 8340B and it indicates the pin numbers on the rear panel connector of the 8340 but it refers to control bit numbers which would indicate a parallel port rather than serial , also the 8516 service manual indicates that the pins are connected to a PAL on the doubler control board , I am a RF not a digital guy but I don’t think you can use a PAL as a serial decoder

?

Sent from for Windows

?

From: gk5220 via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 10:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question

?

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 07:20 AM, Lothar baier wrote:

08516-60009

You might a standard RS232 cable. It's labeled "CABLE ASSEMBLY, RS232" in the 8516A S-Parameter Test Set Operating and Service Manual.
-George

?

?

PALs are combinational logic, such as (using address lines)? A4 and A3 and not A2 and A1 and not A0.

To decode serial data, you need flip-flops, some storage to convert serial to parallel and then act on that.

CPLD's can do that, but with most PAL chips, depending on what's internal, it would be difficult.

Generally, PALs are used to decode address lines to enable a specific chip.

Harvey

?

I know it is labeled RS232 but unfortunately that does not mean a regular RS232 Cable can be used , I looked through the service manual for the 8340B and it indicates the pin numbers on the rear panel connector of the 8340 but it refers to control bit numbers which would indicate a parallel port rather than serial , also the 8516 service manual indicates that the pins are connected to a PAL on the doubler control board , I am a RF not a digital guy but I don’t think you can use a PAL as a serial decoder

?

Sent from for Windows

?

From: gk5220 via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 10:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question

?

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 07:20 AM, Lothar baier wrote:

08516-60009

You might a standard RS232 cable. It's labeled "CABLE ASSEMBLY, RS232" in the 8516A S-Parameter Test Set Operating and Service Manual.
-George

?

I know it is labeled RS232 but unfortunately that does not mean a regular RS232 Cable can be used , I looked through the service manual for the 8340B and it indicates the pin numbers on the rear panel connector of the 8340 but it refers to control bit numbers which would indicate a parallel port rather than serial , also the 8516 service manual indicates that the pins are connected to a PAL on the doubler control board , I am a RF not a digital guy but I don’t think you can use a PAL as a serial decoder

?

Sent from for Windows

?

From: gk5220 via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 10:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question

?

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 07:20 AM, Lothar baier wrote:

08516-60009

You might a standard RS232 cable. It's labeled "CABLE ASSEMBLY, RS232" in the 8516A S-Parameter Test Set Operating and Service Manual.
-George

?

?

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 07:20 AM, Lothar baier wrote:

08516-60009

You might a standard RS232 cable. It's labeled "CABLE ASSEMBLY, RS232" in the 8516A S-Parameter Test Set Operating and Service Manual.
-George

Getting more back on topic, my original point was that a narrower search filter might be either: Filing date (before release), or Grant date (after release)? The assumption being that Grant is unlikely to occur before Release, and Filing is unlikely after Release.

Also, my impression was that the important "start date" is NOT the filing date, but rather the earliest date that the inventor can show documentation of the idea, which can include hand-written notes in a notebook, or other means. I remember I was required to provide that type of info early in the process. And I just read online that the U.S. had (prior to 2013) a 1-year grace period to allow filing after "disclosure".

Pete

On Feb 21, 2022, at 19:39, Richard Knoppow <dickburk@...> wrote:

? McDonald's secret sauce is, I am sure, Bob's Big Boy thousand island dressing. The Big Mac is very similar to the Big Boy except the Big Boy has more flavor. Bob's was a favorite hangout when I was in highschool (the Toluca Lake one).

On 2/21/2022 5:13 PM, Steve - Home wrote:
And McDonald’s secret sauce and KFC’s “11 herbs and spices” ?

Steve

On Feb 21, 2022, at 6:53 PM, Tom Lee <tomlee@...> wrote:

?A classic example of trade secret protection is the formula for Coke. Patents expire, but trade secret protection lasts as long as the secret can be kept.

Tom

On 2/21/2022 4:45 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
To be clear, once an application has been made there is considerable protection until the patent is issued. As someone mentioned there are lots of patent applied for notices on manufactured items.
Also, Some companies relied more on trade secret protection. Eastman Kodak did this for many years because there is no time limit on it. They began to rely more on patents when the rate of discovery of new products became rapid enough for a patent to last through the market life. A trade secret can protect one against having a product design stolen but not against independent discovery.
Patent law seems to be extremely convoluted although it still not as bad as copyright law.

On 2/21/2022 3:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io wrote:

No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing.

The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial. That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent.

I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing. The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important. Many patents take years to be awarded.

Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees. Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them. Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives that matched funding available for patents with business needs.

Best, Francesco K5URG

*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Steve - Home
*Sent:* Monday, February 21, 2022 5:14 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment

?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.

Steve



On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io
<k5urg@...> wrote:

?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product
hits the market!



On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete)
<saipan1959@...> wrote:

?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against
Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is
that Grant is almost certainly going to be after
product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During
development, there is often little time to do the
patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers
(may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and
they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...

Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE.
DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In
the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee
of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in
Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need
for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply
submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee
$100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid
another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and
8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was
granted (but it was submitted first).

Pete

--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070

--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@...
WB6KBL

? McDonald's secret sauce is, I am sure, Bob's Big Boy thousand island dressing. The Big Mac is very similar to the Big Boy except the Big Boy has more flavor. Bob's was a favorite hangout when I was in highschool (the Toluca Lake one).
On 2/21/2022 5:13 PM, Steve - Home wrote:

And McDonald’s secret sauce and KFC’s “11 herbs and spices” ?

Steve

On Feb 21, 2022, at 6:53 PM, Tom Lee <tomlee@...> wrote:

?A classic example of trade secret protection is the formula for Coke. Patents expire, but trade secret protection lasts as long as the secret can be kept.

Tom

On 2/21/2022 4:45 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
?? To be clear, once an application has been made there is considerable protection until the patent is issued. As someone mentioned there are lots of patent applied for notices on manufactured items.
?? Also, Some companies relied more on trade secret protection. Eastman Kodak did this for many years because there is no time limit on it. They began to rely more on patents when the rate of discovery of new products became rapid enough for a patent to last through the market life. A trade secret can protect one against having a product design stolen but not against independent discovery.
?? Patent law seems to be extremely convoluted although it still not as bad as copyright law.

On 2/21/2022 3:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io wrote:

No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing.

The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial.? That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent.

I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing.? The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important. Many patents take years to be awarded.

Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees.? Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them.? Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives? that matched funding available for patents with business needs.

Best, Francesco K5URG

*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Steve - Home
*Sent:* Monday, February 21, 2022 5:14 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment

?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.

Steve



??? On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io
??? <k5urg@...> wrote:

??? ?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product
??? hits the market!



??????? On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete)
??????? <saipan1959@...> wrote:

??????? ?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against
??????? Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is
??????? that Grant is almost certainly going to be after
??????? product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During
??????? development, there is often little time to do the
??????? patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers
??????? (may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and
??????? they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...

??????? Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE.
??????? DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In
??????? the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee
??????? of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in
??????? Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need
??????? for a patent."
??????? But HP was very generous with patents. Simply
??????? submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee
??????? $100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid
??????? another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and
??????? 8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was
??????? granted (but it was submitted first).

??????? Pete

--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070