Re: Spaces before units (Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP/Agilent/Keysight version of Tek Wiki?)
Dave McGuire wrote: On 1/8/22 6:05 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
The big issues come when line wrapping splits the units from their quantities.? I can't stand that. (The non-breaking space U+00A0 was invented for avoiding such line breaks.
As with ? and ¦¸, that is easier to type on some platforms than on others.
Unfortunately, my mail composer doesn¡¯t seem to like it at all.)
? Well, I'm an ASCII man here.? Just like leaded solder, I figure I can stay in that world until I'm dead.
????????? -Dave I like the attitude :-) .? After all, we adapted pretty fast to early personal electronic communications' limits on technical issues under all-caps platforms.? What does the string "100 MFD" or "100 UF" mean?? And regarding solder: I don't like unleaded solder. However, I would like to have the experience of silver-soldering: some instruments from the mid-20th century look just darn beautiful with silver solder. In non-english conversations, waters are even more troubled. Language-regulating institutions do exist, and some of them insist on using local language translations for the names of standard units in the SI system, in clear violation? of SI rules.? I quarrel all time? about this with my colleagues in Colombia. carlos.
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Re: Spaces before units (Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP/Agilent/Keysight version of Tek Wiki?)
On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 10:00 PM, Larry McDavid wrote:
¡ã ¦Ð ¡À ¡Þ ? ¦¸ €
All arrived safely from my Yahoo+ account on my iPad Pro Larry AC9OX
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Re: Spaces before units (Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP/Agilent/Keysight version of Tek Wiki?)
On 1/8/22 6:05 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: The big issues come when line wrapping splits the units from their quantities. I can't stand that. (The non-breaking space U+00A0 was invented for avoiding such line breaks.
As with ? and ¦¸, that is easier to type on some platforms than on others.
Unfortunately, my mail composer doesn¡¯t seem to like it at all.)
Well, I'm an ASCII man here. Just like leaded solder, I figure I can stay in that world until I'm dead. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Re: Spaces before units (Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP/Agilent/Keysight version of Tek Wiki?)
Re: use or non-use of a "space" character following a numeric value and preceding the unit-of-measure symbol. For example, per ISO: 1750 ¡ãC.
I am familiar with using a non-breaking space in Microsoft Word but I had not tried it in my Thunderbird email client. I just did that and it seems to work ok when entered from my laptop keyboard using the Fn keyboard entry for its numeric keypad simulator and ALT+0160. For this entry method to work, the numeric keypad must be used, or its simulator available on many laptop keyboards.
I routinely enter several special characters this way. My desktop computer keyboard has a numeric keypad but my laptop keyboard does not, although it allows entry of numeric keypad number characters by holding down the Fn key and striking various letter keys.
I find the ALT+nnnn method convenient to enter several symbols I frequently use:
¡ã ¦Ð ¡À ¡Þ ? ¦¸ € as well as some Spanish and German characters. There are keystrokes available for *many* special characters this way. I keep a table handy...
It will be interesting to see if the special characters I entered above appear in everyone's email reader. I typed: degree, pi, plus/minus, infinity, micro, Omega and Euro symbols above.
Many folks seem unaware of this simply way of directly entering special symbols from a keyboard. A Google search will find many references and tables available.
I frequently have to enter symbol characters for both temperature degrees and angular or coordinate degrees; if you want to follow the ISO standard, you have to *think* before entry...
If you are writing for publication, there is usually a style manual imposed or referenced and a particular publication may or may not be in accordance with ISO. In such case, the Golden Rule applies: he who has the gold makes the rule...
Larry
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On 1/8/2022 3:05 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: On 2022-01-08, at 23:11, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:
The big issues come when line wrapping splits the units from their quantities. I can't stand that.
(The non-breaking space U+00A0 was invented for avoiding such line breaks.
As with ? and ¦¸, that is easier to type on some platforms than on others.
Unfortunately, my mail composer doesn¡¯t seem to like it at all.)
Gr¨¹?e, Carsten
--
Best wishes,
Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)
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Re: Spaces before units (Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP/Agilent/Keysight version of Tek Wiki?)
On 2022-01-08, at 23:11, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:
The big issues come when line wrapping splits the units from their quantities. I can't stand that.
(The non-breaking space U+00A0 was invented for avoiding such line breaks. As with ? and ¦¸, that is easier to type on some platforms than on others. Unfortunately, my mail composer doesn¡¯t seem to like it at all.) Gr¨¹?e, Carsten
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Re: Spaces before units (Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP/Agilent/Keysight version of Tek Wiki?)
AS / ISO 1000:1998 is the standard for display of SI units. It says there should be a single space between the numeral and the unit-cum-multiplier. Is that a current standard?
No.
Just to clarify that ¡°No¡±: ISO 1000 was a standard promulgated by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO). *They* are saying this no longer is a current standard, having been replaced by ISO 80000-1. Whether ISO (which has allied with IEC here), or BIPM, or (for me) PTB in Germany is the ¡°authoritative¡± organization for Metrology can be debated ad nauseam. I tend to use both BIPM¡¯s SI Brochure (the English language half of it [1]) *and* ISO/IEC 80000 in my work. Fortunately, they generally agree (with the little drawback that ISO is really slow updating some of the standards). The SI Brochure of course has the advantage that it is available at no cost. On the other hand, ISO/IEC 80000 goes into more details on some domains of expertise (you still need weird stuff like ISO 7027 in addition to that, though). Gr¨¹?e, Carsten [1]: [2]:
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Re: Spaces before units (Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP/Agilent/Keysight version of Tek Wiki?)
On 1/8/22 4:39 PM, Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd wrote: >> AS / ISO 1000:1998 is the standard for display of SI units. It
says there should be a single space between the numeral and the
unit-cum-multiplier.
>
> Is that a current standard?
No.
During the start of the pandemic, the National Physical Laboratory (NPL) put a lot of courses available for free - normally they range from free to nearly
?1,000 GBP. I did every one of them. I know it was clearly stated there that there should be a space between the numerical part and the unit. Well that's annoying, as it seems to have been a matter of someone's personal preference. One that I don't happen to share. ;) The big issues come when line wrapping splits the units from their quantities. I can't stand that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Re: Spaces before units (Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP/Agilent/Keysight version of Tek Wiki?)
On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 at 07:17, Carsten Bormann < cabocabo@...> wrote: On 8. Jan 2022, at 05:40, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:
>
>> AS / ISO 1000:1998 is the standard for display of SI units. It says there should be a single space between the numeral and the unit-cum-multiplier.
>
> Is that a current standard?
No.
During the start of the pandemic, the National Physical Laboratory (NPL) put a lot of courses available for free - normally they range from free to nearly ?1,000 GBP. I did every one of them. I know it was clearly stated there that there should be a space between the numerical part and the unit.?
I can¡¯t be bothered, but the following reference is about as authoritative as you would get.?
The International Bureau of Weights and Measures (Bureau International des Poids et Mesures, BIPM) is the intergovernmental organisation through which Member States act together on matters related to measurement science and measurement standards.
-- Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd, drkirkby@...Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100 Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892. Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom
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If anyone wants to play with rejuvenation, I have a B&K 465 CRT Tester/rejuv with all the manuals and adapters that needs a new home. $60 shipped in the US. Pictures on request.
73, geo - n4ua
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That could be a bad/dirty intensity pot, or the sign of a CRT
wearing out. Google for "double-peaking" (although you're not seeing
the second peak, which is why the "bad pot" hypothesis is worth
looking into).
--Tom
--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 1/8/2022 08:30, WB4IUY wrote:
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I have a 141T mainframe that working, OK, but I noticed if I
advance the intensity (brightness) adjustment close to max the
intensity falls back off. It doesn't go out, it just gets dimmer.
Any ideas on this before I dig into it?
Thanks,
Dave
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Re: Spaces before units (Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP/Agilent/Keysight version of Tek Wiki?)
Wonderful, Chuck. Clarity, as you rightly point out, should be the cherub of greater minds.
If only the editors of journals would agree...
-- Cheers,
Tom
--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
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On 1/8/2022 05:57, Chuck Harris wrote: Ralph Waldo Emerson once wrote:"
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do.
He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall.
Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak
what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict
every thing you said to-day.
¡ª 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.'
¡ª Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood?
Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus,
and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton,
and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh.
To be great is to be misunderstood.
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds
adored by little statesmen and philosophers and devines.
With consistency a great soul has nothing to do.
He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall."
The convention of putting a space, or not putting a space, between a
number and a unit is about clarity.
It's your writing. If you find it more clear when you put in a space,
then do that. If you find it more clear when you don't put in a space,
then that is what you should do.
It's your writing, and the only payment you are ever going to get for
doing that writing is the pleasure of spending some of your precious
little time on this earth writing... Well, that and the pleasure of
being criticized because you didn't write it the way some reader wanted
to read it.
99% of the time, I choose to not put a space between the number and its
units, because I find the spacing of the fixed pitch typographic fonts
that I prefer, to be rather wide already. Adding a space divorces the
unit from the number. Further, automatic line wrapping algorithms take
no heed of your desire for the number and unit to be together, and often
will put those at the end of a line onto different lines.
Which, rather doesn't improve the clarity of your writing.
-Chuck Harris
On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 08:17:10 +0100 "Carsten
Bormann" <cabocabo@...> wrote:
On 8. Jan 2022, at 05:40, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:
AS / ISO 1000:1998 is the standard for display of SI units. It
says there should be a single space between the numeral and the
unit-cum-multiplier. Is that a current standard? No.
See ¡ª the ISO/IEC 80000
series has replaced most earlier standards in this space (quantities
and units).
But the rule stands.
ISO 80000-1:2009 Section 7.1.4 has this to say:
7.1.4 Expressions for quantities
The symbol of the unit shall be placed after the numerical value
in the expression for a quantity, leaving a space between the
numerical value and the unit symbol. It should be noted that this
rule also applies to the units per cent, % and per mil, ¡ë. It
should also be noted that, in accordance with this rule, the
symbol ¡ãC for the degree Celsius shall be preceded by a space when
expressing a Celsius temperature.
The only exceptions to this rule are for the units degree, minute
and second for plane angle, in which case there shall be no space
between the numerical value and the unit symbol.
Can¡¯t provide a link, because
hides
most of the document until you pay for it. (Most of ISO/IEC 80000
actually is accessible there because it is in the definitions
sections, which are not behind the paywall. But not this rule.)
If you don¡¯t want to buy tons of ISO standards, the basics of units
and quantities for electrotechnical work have been written up by
Rohde and Schwarz (who used to be the distributor of HP equipment in
Germany a few decades ago, but mostly peddles their own instruments
right now). I found this document, of all places, in their career
section; apparently you are supposed to be able to read, write,
calculate, and clearly express your units if you want to work there:
If you don¡¯t trust URL shorteners, here is the full link:
Mandatory reading.
(The specific rule that there is a space between the number and the
unit is so ingrained that isn¡¯t even spelled out as such here, but is
consistently used in the examples.)
(I don¡¯t like all these rules, just like I don¡¯t always like English
spelling very much :-) But it is the standard¡ So I don¡¯t meik ahp
mai oun ruulz.)
Gr¨¹?e, Carsten
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Besides the manual method of rejuvinating the CRT, you could
use something like a Sencore CR70 or the more expensive CR7000
which automate the rejuvinating process and tend to be a
bit kinder to the tube. Still have the possibility of killing
the tube though, but they offer multiple levels of rejuvination
so you can optimize the harm/benefit choice. You used to be
able to find CR70s for $50 more or less, but they seem to be
pricier now.
Rejuvination seem to get you somewhere between a few hundred and
a thousand hours or so before it fades again. But that's quite
a lot of usage for a hobbiest.
Full disclosure: I have a CR70 and a double peaking Tek 576 that
I plan to use it on, but it's a ways down the queue. I'll get to
it someday.
On the bright side, 141s are pretty common so it shouldn't be
too hard to find a parts unit or grab a usable CRT if you aren't
successful at rejuvination.
If you ever saw the video from Tektronix on how they built their
scope tubes, it would seem possible to rebuild them. Given
the investment in equipment and skill though along with the
size of the potential market, I can't see how you could break
even, let alone make any money doing that.
Paul
--
Paul Amaranth, GCIH | Manchester MI, USA
Aurora Group of Michigan, LLC | Security, Systems & Software
paul@... | Unix/Linux - We don't do windows
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Re: Spaces before units (Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP/Agilent/Keysight version of Tek Wiki?)
I don¡¯t want to extend this thread indefinitely, but I just ran into exhibit 1 :-)
We generally write microfarads as uF instead of ?F because the latter may be a bit harder to type on some systems, and it is somewhat unlikely to actually need ¡°u¡± (atomic mass units) in conjunction with farads.
Now I ran into a case of hypercorrection [0]:
The manual for a capacitor decade, made by the quite respectable Time electronics [1].
This consistently uses greek prefixes, e.g. in:
¦ÌF = Red
¦ÇF = White
¦ÑF = Yellow
You may need to squint, but the u?? (mu for micro) reverse correction, where we add a little stem to the u to make it a mu, was extended to n?¦Ç (eta for nano) and p?¦Ñ (rho for pico).
You can¡¯t make this stuff up¡
So please don¡¯t try to be *too* correct.
Gr¨¹?e, Carsten
[0]:
[1]:
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Not controversy to me.? But I did want to point out that the solution has a tradeoff.? Not sure how obvious the tradeoff happens to be.
Harvey
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On 1/8/2022 12:31 PM, Mike Feher wrote: As I said, maybe a "while longer". Why always so much controversy on here? - Mike
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Harvey White
Sent: Saturday, January 8, 2022 12:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 141T CRT Question
Using a booster on a CRT is roughly equivalent to stuffing a new wick in an old candle and lighting both at the same time.
Increasing the filament voltage does make the cathode hotter, but the boosters don't do this for a little bit and try to clean off the cathode surface, they just increase the voltage. Since lifetime of the filament is related to the voltage/temperature, you're shortening the life of the tube.
Of course, that makes an unusable CRT useable, but for only so long.
Always tradeoffs.
Harvey
On 1/8/2022 11:52 AM, Mike Feher wrote:
It has been a long time since I had a 141T. However, I remember back
in the early 60's I worked at a Radio/TV repair shop and often had TVs
with dim video. There used to be a "booster" that would temporarily
fix the problem by increasing the filament voltage, hence the
emission. I do not know if that is feasible on the 141T design but it
may prolong the CRT's usable life a while longer if it is. 73 - Mike
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Saturday, January 8, 2022 11:35 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 141T CRT Question
On 1/8/22 11:30 AM, WB4IUY wrote:
I have a 141T mainframe that working, OK, but I noticed if I advance
the intensity (brightness) adjustment close to max the intensity
falls back off. It doesn't go out, it just gets dimmer. Any ideas on
this before I dig into it? This is "close to" a classic symptom of a CRT with low emission. I believe the classic symptom is for the visible brightness to decrease and then increase again as the intensity control is increased. Chuck can probably explain better here.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
There is a way to evaluate the CRT. You can use an old TV tube tester and make sure the pins are correct for the tester. Usually these testers are cheap and come with several adaptors for different pin outs. They also can have a booster function that burns off the tube a bit. I don't know if this would work or not. TV pic tube testers are cheap. I just gave away a nice one to someone who works on old scopes and I do have access to 2-3 other units
What tube does the 141 use??? Not sure about the 141.. I have an original US WWII unused CRT that was used in lots of scopes (Box sez EICO, but Heath and others used the tube)
Tube is free but I do not think it would ship well.
Wally KC9INK, located Indianapolis IN
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As I said, maybe a "while longer". Why always so much controversy on here? - Mike
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Harvey White Sent: Saturday, January 8, 2022 12:25 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 141T CRT Question Using a booster on a CRT is roughly equivalent to stuffing a new wick in an old candle and lighting both at the same time. Increasing the filament voltage does make the cathode hotter, but the boosters don't do this for a little bit and try to clean off the cathode surface, they just increase the voltage. Since lifetime of the filament is related to the voltage/temperature, you're shortening the life of the tube. Of course, that makes an unusable CRT useable, but for only so long. Always tradeoffs. Harvey On 1/8/2022 11:52 AM, Mike Feher wrote: It has been a long time since I had a 141T. However, I remember back
in the early 60's I worked at a Radio/TV repair shop and often had TVs
with dim video. There used to be a "booster" that would temporarily
fix the problem by increasing the filament voltage, hence the
emission. I do not know if that is feasible on the 141T design but it
may prolong the CRT's usable life a while longer if it is. 73 - Mike
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Saturday, January 8, 2022 11:35 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 141T CRT Question
On 1/8/22 11:30 AM, WB4IUY wrote:
I have a 141T mainframe that working, OK, but I noticed if I advance
the intensity (brightness) adjustment close to max the intensity
falls back off. It doesn't go out, it just gets dimmer. Any ideas on
this before I dig into it? This is "close to" a classic symptom of a CRT with low emission. I believe the classic symptom is for the visible brightness to decrease and then increase again as the intensity control is increased. Chuck can probably explain better here.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Using a booster on a CRT is roughly equivalent to stuffing a new wick in an old candle and lighting both at the same time.
Increasing the filament voltage does make the cathode hotter, but the boosters don't do this for a little bit and try to clean off the? cathode surface, they just increase the voltage.? Since lifetime of the filament is related to the voltage/temperature, you're shortening the life of the tube.
Of course, that makes an unusable CRT useable, but for only so long.
Always tradeoffs.
Harvey
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 1/8/2022 11:52 AM, Mike Feher wrote: It has been a long time since I had a 141T. However, I remember back in the early 60's I worked at a Radio/TV repair shop and often had TVs with dim video. There used to be a "booster" that would temporarily fix the problem by increasing the filament voltage, hence the emission. I do not know if that is feasible on the 141T design but it may prolong the CRT's usable life a while longer if it is. 73 - Mike
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Saturday, January 8, 2022 11:35 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 141T CRT Question
On 1/8/22 11:30 AM, WB4IUY wrote:
I have a 141T mainframe that working, OK, but I noticed if I advance
the intensity (brightness) adjustment close to max the intensity falls
back off. It doesn't go out, it just gets dimmer. Any ideas on this
before I dig into it? This is "close to" a classic symptom of a CRT with low emission. I believe the classic symptom is for the visible brightness to decrease and then increase again as the intensity control is increased. Chuck can probably explain better here.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Bruce via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2022 9:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 141T CRT Question
?
Look on line - there is a piece on CRT restoration. It involves
pulsing the cathode current substantially above rated values to clean
it. It should be done carefully and ONLY after going the CRT set up
procedure to be sure the CRT bias and intensity limit are set properly.
The document is probably on this forum somewhere
FOUND IT - see attached - DO NOT try till you have done the CRT Z axis
adjustments. and if i get some time, I will forward it to you if you
cannot find it.
Cheers!
Bruce
Quoting WB4IUY <wb4iuy@...>:
> HI Dave,
>
> I remember in the days of vacuum tube HV rectifiers, this would
> happen when the rect tube was weak...but in this mostly solid state
> scope, I didn't think that would be the issue. I'll put my nose to
> the ground at swapmeets (and here!) for a spare CRT, just in case.
>
>
>
|
Look on line - there is a piece on CRT restoration. It involves pulsing the cathode current substantially above rated values to clean it. It should be done carefully and ONLY after going the CRT set up procedure to be sure the CRT bias and intensity limit are set properly.
The document is probably on this forum somewhere
FOUND IT - see attached - DO NOT try till you have done the CRT Z axis adjustments. and if i get some time, I will forward it to you if you cannot find it.
Cheers!
Bruce
Quoting WB4IUY <wb4iuy@...>:
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HI Dave,
I remember in the days of vacuum tube HV rectifiers, this would happen when the rect tube was weak...but in this mostly solid state scope, I didn't think that would be the issue. I'll put my nose to the ground at swapmeets (and here!) for a spare CRT, just in case.
|
On 1/8/22 11:45 AM, WB4IUY wrote: I remember in the days of vacuum tube HV rectifiers, this would happen when the rect tube was weak...but in this mostly solid state scope, I didn't think that would be the issue. I'll put my nose to the ground at swapmeets (and here!) for a spare CRT, just in case. The emission I'm talking about is that of the CRT's cathode, not something in the power system. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Larry McElhiney
Dave McGuire
Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd