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Re: I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

 

开云体育

Thanks Paul….

?

Waiting for a ship to come in that isn’t afloat is time otherwise spent, like maybe if these boards could be powered externally with a proper 40 kHz source… my reservation is what is the expected loading and if unloaded would the design misbehave destructively.?

?

尝补迟别谤…

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Paul Bicknell
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 2:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

Hi Gene

?

Regarding assembly extension cables I have yet to find anyone with one and there is $100 waiting for one hear

I am actually collecting the parts to make such an item

The starter is a plug unit that has been pulled apart but it must have the all the connections in the rear connecter for it to be universal

The other thing is not to flex the fragile ribbon cable to the rear socket and just Mary up with the connecter that is on the ribbon

?

Best of Luck Paul

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gene Silvernail
Sent: 26 November 2021 21:08
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

I' m poorly equipped, without assembly extension cables, to test powered which would be a plus. Has anyone tried to pipe 40 kHz to the 70900A PS board unloaded?

?

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device
Get

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Gene Silvernail via groups.io <genesilvernail@...>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 1:00:00 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

Hugh,

?

I believe that makes sense it what I'm seeing on measurements (Q, DF, ESR)? taken with my DE-5000 meter. I measured in circuit and couldn't get any readings above 1kHz, e.d. 10 and 100 kHz. Cutting them loose produced same readings so meter as advertised was able to read in-circuit.?

?

As a comparison, I measured similar Al caps and was able to get 10 and in some cases 100 kHz believable values. Did this across various OEMs incuding USA, Japanese and PRC. As expected , the PRC caps showed worst of the lot with very few producing any readings above 1kHz.

?

Panasonic FR caps will be ordered to replace the lot on the 70900A. As the condition of caps in the display, IF and RF are unknown, I need to composite a full list... just to cover my lower anatomy.?Did Dr. Frankenstein ever ponder the economics of his rejuvenation efforts, I wonder.

?

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device
Get

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Hugh Gilbert <gilbhugh@...>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 7:37:55 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

From my experience, new aluminum electrolytic capacitors will often measure 10-20% low on capacitance.

Older caps that from nonuse need to be reformed will measure higher due to thinner dielectric.

When the capacitors start to dry out due to electrolyte loss, the ESR will increase by 10X or more before the capacitance falls off.

?

?

On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 2:34 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

Perhaps, it is a cult, but I don't think so.? Cult-ship
usually implies a blind following of a personality.

ESR meter users are just happy that the instruments
cut a lot of time and effort out of repairs.? Failed
capacitors usually have very obvious ESR signatures: 10 to
1000x the expected ESR.

If you are looking at 1.5 ohm measured ESR vs 1.25 ohm,
expected ESR, as a sign of a failed capacitor, you are
using the ESR meter wrongly.

Capacitors have to get really bad before the circuitry
will fail, in most cases.

The dissipation factor is very useful for designing a
power supply, but a bit awkward to use for repair purposes.

Most meters that read DF need the capacitor out of circuit
to give any sort of useful reading.? ESR meters measure
at such a low voltage that the semiconductor part of the
circuit is not activated.

The other thing I notice is the ESR meters generally work
at 50KHz, but bridges that measure DF are mostly 1KHz.

50KHz measurements usually mean a lot more to me when I am
repairing switching power supplies, than does 1KHz.

-Chuck Harris


On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:44:14 -0500 "Dave McGuire"
<mcguire@...> wrote:
> On 11/24/21 6:40 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
> >? ?? It may prove more useful to use dissipation factor rather than
> > ESR even though both are a measure of the same thing. Since DF is a
> > ratio of reactance to resistance it varies with frequency and may
> > be more indicative of capacitor quality than plain ESR.
> >? ?? There is a good, short article on DF at:
> > <>?
>
>? ? You know, I keep telling people that, and people keep telling me
> I'm crazy.? All converting DF to ESR does is introduce a frequency
> dependency that gets in the way of deciding "good capacitor" or "bad
> capacitor".? There's almost a "cult of ESR" these days, it seems.
>
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
>




Re: Battery for HP 415E

 

Jeremy,

?

I still have NiCads still holding their own after 15 years in several pieces of test equipment.? I keep a periodic recharge list to keep track of when they need attention if the equipment sits on the shelf for extended periods of time (up to a year or more).

?

One unit still has cells manufactured by the out-of-business Gould brand and is still going strong.

?

Steve (WB0DBS) -? not sure where you looked for a battery pack build.? That outfit is robbing people blind.? The local Batteries + Bulbs here in town does a much cheaper job at rebuilds.? The problem is that they also use cheaper NiCads than I prefer.? I choose to “roll my own” with high quality cells.

As for Li-ion pack builds you will find that very few battery fab houses will even touch those things given the liability issues should a failure occur.

?

Ordering NiCad cells with installed? tabs on the top and bottom allows you to connect interconnecting wires without having to own a small spot welder.? And if you Google “battery pack shrink wrap” you will find numerous sources for the overwrap to finish things off.? There are also YouTube videos on how to build your own battery pack.

?

I rebuilt the battery packs in my Tek 1502 & 1503 TDRs for $30 each.

?

Greg
Re: Battery for HP 415E

 

On 2021-11-26, at 23:14, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:

From what I understand about Li-ion, you have to have a very carefully designed charger circuit that matches the cell voltage (there are at least four) and must be current limited and voltage limited. While many Li-ion packs have protective circuitry in them, many (and I think it's specific to the ones designed for RC high current) do not.
This is 24 V (6S == 25.2 V), with a charging current of some 30 mA (!).

You could use a cheap 6S RC battery plus a 6S BMS with balancing function.
Should be below $30. Don’t like that the BMS is probably optimized for several A.

Or you could use a six-pack of protected (!) 18650s plus a $2 balancer board — that will be able to handle the 30 mA for you; no BMS needed (but, again, too much current delivery capacity for my taste).

I would probably prefer three of the Soshine protected 6F22s in series (I don’t know how well they would balance; maybe you have to take them out every ~ 500 h of use and charge each of them on their own, or you build some crude balancer with 9V Zeners in parallel to each 6F22 that keep the other batteries charging when the overcharge protection goes off on one; with 30 mA needs to be able to dissipate some 270 mW each — maybe easier to use TL431s with two resistors each, but these will discharge the batteries at a few ?A).
(White)%20UK.html

(3 9V 6F22 primary cells + one series diode so there is no charging should do it, too, of course; just don’t know how much fiddling is needed when replacing them every 60 hours of use.)

Grü?e, Carsten
Re: I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

 

开云体育

Hi Richard

?

Pictures of the 70900 module extender outside and inside would be good

Could you please make them each smaller than 1 meg as I will put them on both HP sites

Regards Paul

?

PS I was hoping the line was going to say I have a spare module extender but alas not

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Richard Parrish
Sent: 26 November 2021 23:02
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

I actually have both the service kits made for the 70K series, there are a LOT of cables and extender cables of one kind or the other.? I think that there are roughly 30+ extension cables for the series and a module extender that isn't very user friendly.? If I remember correctly, there's one service kit for the 70900x and one kit for the series in general.? I can take some pictures if it would be helpful.

Richard

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Paul Bicknell via groups.io <admin@...>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 4:50 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

Hi Gene

?

Regarding assembly extension cables I have yet to find anyone with one and there is $100 waiting for one hear

I am actually collecting the parts to make such an item

The starter is a plug unit that has been pulled apart but it must have the all the connections in the rear connecter for it to be universal

The other thing is not to flex the fragile ribbon cable to the rear socket and just Mary up with the connecter that is on the ribbon

?

Best of Luck Paul

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gene Silvernail
Sent: 26 November 2021 21:08
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

I' m poorly equipped, without assembly extension cables, to test powered which would be a plus. Has anyone tried to pipe 40 kHz to the 70900A PS board unloaded?

?

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device
Get

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Gene Silvernail via groups.io <genesilvernail@...>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 1:00:00 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

Hugh,

?

I believe that makes sense it what I'm seeing on measurements (Q, DF, ESR)? taken with my DE-5000 meter. I measured in circuit and couldn't get any readings above 1kHz, e.d. 10 and 100 kHz. Cutting them loose produced same readings so meter as advertised was able to read in-circuit.?

?

As a comparison, I measured similar Al caps and was able to get 10 and in some cases 100 kHz believable values. Did this across various OEMs incuding USA, Japanese and PRC. As expected , the PRC caps showed worst of the lot with very few producing any readings above 1kHz.

?

Panasonic FR caps will be ordered to replace the lot on the 70900A. As the condition of caps in the display, IF and RF are unknown, I need to composite a full list... just to cover my lower anatomy.?Did Dr. Frankenstein ever ponder the economics of his rejuvenation efforts, I wonder.

?

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device
Get

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Hugh Gilbert <gilbhugh@...>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 7:37:55 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

From my experience, new aluminum electrolytic capacitors will often measure 10-20% low on capacitance.

Older caps that from nonuse need to be reformed will measure higher due to thinner dielectric.

When the capacitors start to dry out due to electrolyte loss, the ESR will increase by 10X or more before the capacitance falls off.

?

?

On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 2:34 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

Perhaps, it is a cult, but I don't think so.? Cult-ship
usually implies a blind following of a personality.

ESR meter users are just happy that the instruments
cut a lot of time and effort out of repairs.? Failed
capacitors usually have very obvious ESR signatures: 10 to
1000x the expected ESR.

If you are looking at 1.5 ohm measured ESR vs 1.25 ohm,
expected ESR, as a sign of a failed capacitor, you are
using the ESR meter wrongly.

Capacitors have to get really bad before the circuitry
will fail, in most cases.

The dissipation factor is very useful for designing a
power supply, but a bit awkward to use for repair purposes.

Most meters that read DF need the capacitor out of circuit
to give any sort of useful reading.? ESR meters measure
at such a low voltage that the semiconductor part of the
circuit is not activated.

The other thing I notice is the ESR meters generally work
at 50KHz, but bridges that measure DF are mostly 1KHz.

50KHz measurements usually mean a lot more to me when I am
repairing switching power supplies, than does 1KHz.

-Chuck Harris


On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:44:14 -0500 "Dave McGuire"
<mcguire@...> wrote:
> On 11/24/21 6:40 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
> >? ?? It may prove more useful to use dissipation factor rather than
> > ESR even though both are a measure of the same thing. Since DF is a
> > ratio of reactance to resistance it varies with frequency and may
> > be more indicative of capacitor quality than plain ESR.
> >? ?? There is a good, short article on DF at:
> > <>?
>
>? ? You know, I keep telling people that, and people keep telling me
> I'm crazy.? All converting DF to ESR does is introduce a frequency
> dependency that gets in the way of deciding "good capacitor" or "bad
> capacitor".? There's almost a "cult of ESR" these days, it seems.
>
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
>




Re: Battery for HP 415E

 

And specifically replying to Greg Muir’s post, NiCads do not have a very long shelf life OFF charge. In particular, HP designed the charger circuits in these instruments to be low-current trickle chargers, only a few milliamperes, and to be connected to line voltage at all times, unless the instrument is actually needed to operate off-grid.?



On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 2:50 PM Jim Ford <james.ford@...> wrote:
I second the caution about Li ion batteries causing fires when improperly charged.? A young man I know inadvertently started a fire in his parents' house by doing exactly that.? It can happen.? ? ? ? Jim Ford?



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "Greg Muir via " <big_sky_explorer=[email protected]>
Date: 11/26/21 2:32 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Battery for HP 415E

I still replace my old NiCads with new ones made by Tenergy.? They last for years, are cheap and I don’t have to worry about waking up one night and finding that a “best guess” charging circuit for a Li-ion replacement managed to barbecue my lab.

?

If you are going to go the Li-ion route, make sure that you install batteries with the internal protection circuit.? In addition make sure that you purchase ?quality Li-ion batteries.? There is no guarantee that the off-brand consumer-grade cheapos have the necessary quality built into them.

?

I personally prefer the gradual meltdown of a NiCad versus the oxyacetylene flame of a failed Li-ion.

?

And if you only use that instrument once in a blue moon be reminded no matter what battery you put in it will still need periodical charging.? Their charge doesn’t last forever and all batteries will fail from lack of attention.

?


Greg

--
Jeremy Nichols
6.
Re: I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

 

开云体育

I actually have both the service kits made for the 70K series, there are a LOT of cables and extender cables of one kind or the other.? I think that there are roughly 30+ extension cables for the series and a module extender that isn't very user friendly.? If I remember correctly, there's one service kit for the 70900x and one kit for the series in general.? I can take some pictures if it would be helpful.
Richard

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Paul Bicknell via groups.io <admin@...>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 4:50 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?
?

Hi Gene

?

Regarding assembly extension cables I have yet to find anyone with one and there is $100 waiting for one hear

I am actually collecting the parts to make such an item

The starter is a plug unit that has been pulled apart but it must have the all the connections in the rear connecter for it to be universal

The other thing is not to flex the fragile ribbon cable to the rear socket and just Mary up with the connecter that is on the ribbon

?

Best of Luck Paul

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gene Silvernail
Sent: 26 November 2021 21:08
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

I' m poorly equipped, without assembly extension cables, to test powered which would be a plus. Has anyone tried to pipe 40 kHz to the 70900A PS board unloaded?

?

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device
Get

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Gene Silvernail via groups.io <genesilvernail@...>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 1:00:00 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

Hugh,

?

I believe that makes sense it what I'm seeing on measurements (Q, DF, ESR)? taken with my DE-5000 meter. I measured in circuit and couldn't get any readings above 1kHz, e.d. 10 and 100 kHz. Cutting them loose produced same readings so meter as advertised was able to read in-circuit.?

?

As a comparison, I measured similar Al caps and was able to get 10 and in some cases 100 kHz believable values. Did this across various OEMs incuding USA, Japanese and PRC. As expected , the PRC caps showed worst of the lot with very few producing any readings above 1kHz.

?

Panasonic FR caps will be ordered to replace the lot on the 70900A. As the condition of caps in the display, IF and RF are unknown, I need to composite a full list... just to cover my lower anatomy.?Did Dr. Frankenstein ever ponder the economics of his rejuvenation efforts, I wonder.

?

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device
Get

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Hugh Gilbert <gilbhugh@...>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 7:37:55 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

From my experience, new aluminum electrolytic capacitors will often measure 10-20% low on capacitance.

Older caps that from nonuse need to be reformed will measure higher due to thinner dielectric.

When the capacitors start to dry out due to electrolyte loss, the ESR will increase by 10X or more before the capacitance falls off.

?

?

On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 2:34 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

Perhaps, it is a cult, but I don't think so.? Cult-ship
usually implies a blind following of a personality.

ESR meter users are just happy that the instruments
cut a lot of time and effort out of repairs.? Failed
capacitors usually have very obvious ESR signatures: 10 to
1000x the expected ESR.

If you are looking at 1.5 ohm measured ESR vs 1.25 ohm,
expected ESR, as a sign of a failed capacitor, you are
using the ESR meter wrongly.

Capacitors have to get really bad before the circuitry
will fail, in most cases.

The dissipation factor is very useful for designing a
power supply, but a bit awkward to use for repair purposes.

Most meters that read DF need the capacitor out of circuit
to give any sort of useful reading.? ESR meters measure
at such a low voltage that the semiconductor part of the
circuit is not activated.

The other thing I notice is the ESR meters generally work
at 50KHz, but bridges that measure DF are mostly 1KHz.

50KHz measurements usually mean a lot more to me when I am
repairing switching power supplies, than does 1KHz.

-Chuck Harris


On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:44:14 -0500 "Dave McGuire"
<mcguire@...> wrote:
> On 11/24/21 6:40 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
> >? ?? It may prove more useful to use dissipation factor rather than
> > ESR even though both are a measure of the same thing. Since DF is a
> > ratio of reactance to resistance it varies with frequency and may
> > be more indicative of capacitor quality than plain ESR.
> >? ?? There is a good, short article on DF at:
> > <>?
>
>? ? You know, I keep telling people that, and people keep telling me
> I'm crazy.? All converting DF to ESR does is introduce a frequency
> dependency that gets in the way of deciding "good capacitor" or "bad
> capacitor".? There's almost a "cult of ESR" these days, it seems.
>
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
>





Re: I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

 

开云体育

Hi on the same subject of 70900 repair?

?

Has anyone ever had a different fault other than capacitors and repaired it ?

As in? looking for other stock faults

?

Is there a replacement yig available that will fit into the existing space as there seems to be? a few 70900 appear on Ebay missing the yig ?

?

Regards Paul

?
Re: FS/FT: Agilent E4418B power meter

 

On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 11:01 AM, Tom B wrote:
I am looking for a reasonably priced Rohde & Schwarz? CMU200
IMO, there are no reasonably priced CMU200.?
Re: Battery for HP 415E

 

开云体育

I second the caution about Li ion batteries causing fires when improperly charged.? A young man I know inadvertently started a fire in his parents' house by doing exactly that.? It can happen.? ? ? ? Jim Ford?



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "Greg Muir via groups.io" <big_sky_explorer@...>
Date: 11/26/21 2:32 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Battery for HP 415E

I still replace my old NiCads with new ones made by Tenergy.? They last for years, are cheap and I don’t have to worry about waking up one night and finding that a “best guess” charging circuit for a Li-ion replacement managed to barbecue my lab.

?

If you are going to go the Li-ion route, make sure that you install batteries with the internal protection circuit.? In addition make sure that you purchase ?quality Li-ion batteries.? There is no guarantee that the off-brand consumer-grade cheapos have the necessary quality built into them.

?

I personally prefer the gradual meltdown of a NiCad versus the oxyacetylene flame of a failed Li-ion.

?

And if you only use that instrument once in a blue moon be reminded no matter what battery you put in it will still need periodical charging.? Their charge doesn’t last forever and all batteries will fail from lack of attention.

?


Greg
Re: I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

 

开云体育

Hi Gene

?

Regarding assembly extension cables I have yet to find anyone with one and there is $100 waiting for one hear

I am actually collecting the parts to make such an item

The starter is a plug unit that has been pulled apart but it must have the all the connections in the rear connecter for it to be universal

The other thing is not to flex the fragile ribbon cable to the rear socket and just Mary up with the connecter that is on the ribbon

?

Best of Luck Paul

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gene Silvernail
Sent: 26 November 2021 21:08
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

I' m poorly equipped, without assembly extension cables, to test powered which would be a plus. Has anyone tried to pipe 40 kHz to the 70900A PS board unloaded?

?

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device
Get

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Gene Silvernail via groups.io <genesilvernail@...>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 1:00:00 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

Hugh,

?

I believe that makes sense it what I'm seeing on measurements (Q, DF, ESR)? taken with my DE-5000 meter. I measured in circuit and couldn't get any readings above 1kHz, e.d. 10 and 100 kHz. Cutting them loose produced same readings so meter as advertised was able to read in-circuit.?

?

As a comparison, I measured similar Al caps and was able to get 10 and in some cases 100 kHz believable values. Did this across various OEMs incuding USA, Japanese and PRC. As expected , the PRC caps showed worst of the lot with very few producing any readings above 1kHz.

?

Panasonic FR caps will be ordered to replace the lot on the 70900A. As the condition of caps in the display, IF and RF are unknown, I need to composite a full list... just to cover my lower anatomy.?Did Dr. Frankenstein ever ponder the economics of his rejuvenation efforts, I wonder.

?

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device
Get

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Hugh Gilbert <gilbhugh@...>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 7:37:55 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

?

From my experience, new aluminum electrolytic capacitors will often measure 10-20% low on capacitance.

Older caps that from nonuse need to be reformed will measure higher due to thinner dielectric.

When the capacitors start to dry out due to electrolyte loss, the ESR will increase by 10X or more before the capacitance falls off.

?

?

On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 2:34 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

Perhaps, it is a cult, but I don't think so.? Cult-ship
usually implies a blind following of a personality.

ESR meter users are just happy that the instruments
cut a lot of time and effort out of repairs.? Failed
capacitors usually have very obvious ESR signatures: 10 to
1000x the expected ESR.

If you are looking at 1.5 ohm measured ESR vs 1.25 ohm,
expected ESR, as a sign of a failed capacitor, you are
using the ESR meter wrongly.

Capacitors have to get really bad before the circuitry
will fail, in most cases.

The dissipation factor is very useful for designing a
power supply, but a bit awkward to use for repair purposes.

Most meters that read DF need the capacitor out of circuit
to give any sort of useful reading.? ESR meters measure
at such a low voltage that the semiconductor part of the
circuit is not activated.

The other thing I notice is the ESR meters generally work
at 50KHz, but bridges that measure DF are mostly 1KHz.

50KHz measurements usually mean a lot more to me when I am
repairing switching power supplies, than does 1KHz.

-Chuck Harris


On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:44:14 -0500 "Dave McGuire"
<mcguire@...> wrote:
> On 11/24/21 6:40 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
> >? ?? It may prove more useful to use dissipation factor rather than
> > ESR even though both are a measure of the same thing. Since DF is a
> > ratio of reactance to resistance it varies with frequency and may
> > be more indicative of capacitor quality than plain ESR.
> >? ?? There is a good, short article on DF at:
> > <>?
>
>? ? You know, I keep telling people that, and people keep telling me
> I'm crazy.? All converting DF to ESR does is introduce a frequency
> dependency that gets in the way of deciding "good capacitor" or "bad
> capacitor".? There's almost a "cult of ESR" these days, it seems.
>
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
>





Re: Battery for HP 415E

 

I still replace my old NiCads with new ones made by Tenergy.? They last for years, are cheap and I don’t have to worry about waking up one night and finding that a “best guess” charging circuit for a Li-ion replacement managed to barbecue my lab.

?

If you are going to go the Li-ion route, make sure that you install batteries with the internal protection circuit.? In addition make sure that you purchase ?quality Li-ion batteries.? There is no guarantee that the off-brand consumer-grade cheapos have the necessary quality built into them.

?

I personally prefer the gradual meltdown of a NiCad versus the oxyacetylene flame of a failed Li-ion.

?

And if you only use that instrument once in a blue moon be reminded no matter what battery you put in it will still need periodical charging.? Their charge doesn’t last forever and all batteries will fail from lack of attention.

?


Greg
Re: Battery for HP 415E

 

Indeed!? Running it up on the bench supply, it only draws 8mA ... hardly worth worrying about, 3 x PP3 will do it nicely. If i can find 3 pp3 NiMh that will be even better.

I'm just using a simply Schottky diode in a vaveguide mount as my detector, seems to work. It would be nice to get a proper HP detector like a HP423B or similar, I guess I need to keep my eye on the auctions ...


On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 22:01, Steve - Home <steve-krull@...> wrote:
I think most of the guys doing antenna testing at the roundtables and etc. are doing something similar. We all have long cables but three little batteries are so much easier!

Steve
WB0DBS



On Nov 26, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Robin Szemeti <robin@...> wrote:

?
Thanks for that Steve, that isn't the worst solution I have heard either ... I just need ti for occasional use testing antennas in the field ... I'd rather not drag a mains cable out there really ...

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 21:51, Steve - Home <steve-krull@...> wrote:
Robin,

I disabled the charging circuit by pulling one leg of the resistor and attached three bog standard 9v batteries in series, stuck to the back panel with double sided foam tape. The current draw isn’t much and the batteries have lasted for years of intermittent use. It’s not fancy but it works. The local battery supply place wanted over $100 to build a replacement NiCd battery pack. I’ve got less than $10 in this solution and I figure it will outlast me.?

Steve
WB0DBS



On Nov 26, 2021, at 2:49 PM, Robin Szemeti <robin@...> wrote:

?
What would people recommend as a battery for an HP415E?? The original battery option was a NiCd, but that tech is well past its sell by date ... I guess Lithium of some flavour is the preferred option these days .. anyone got suggestion for a suitbale pack?

-- 
Best regards,

Robin Szemeti

Redpoint Consulting Limited 

E: robin@... 
T: +44 (0) 1299 405028 
M: +44 (0) 7971 883371 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE 
The information contained in this e-mail is intended only for the
confidential use of the above named recipient. If you are not the
intended recipient or person responsible for delivering it to the
intended recipient, you have received this communication in error 
and must not distribute or copy it. 
Please accept the sender's apologies, notify the sender immediately 
by return e-mail and delete this communication. 

Thank you.

Re: Battery for HP 415E

 

开云体育

From what I understand about Li-ion, you have to have a very carefully designed charger circuit that matches the cell voltage (there are at least four) and must be current limited and voltage limited.? While many Li-ion packs have protective circuitry in them, many (and I think it's specific to the ones designed for RC high current) do not.?

For Nicd/Nimh batteries, they can typically stand charging continuously as long as the rate is less than C/20 the heat generated by continuous charge (when fully charged, the chemistry isn't reversing, so the energy goes into heat) won't damage the cell.? May be lower for Nimh.

For cell reversal, it generally doesn't happen unless the cells are discharged quite a bit, I think it's below half a volt.? It happens in battery packs when the rest of the batteries aren't as discharged and the voltage across an individual cell is reversed.

There's lots of different ways to charge Nimh and Nicd cells, some of which monitor cell voltage, some of which monitor cell temperature.? Those generally come into play when fast charging cells that are designed for it.

Harvey



On 11/26/2021 4:14 PM, Robin Szemeti wrote:

The "charging circuit" is a 383 ohm resistor hung off the raw DC ... Li Ion is much less sensitive to charging than previous technologies. I'm sure it will be fine ... I was just interested if anyone knew af a decent Li 24V pack that woudl fit in the case ...


On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 21:01, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:

? ?Back in the day we thought they were just fine, because that's what
we had.

? ?Volts are volts, but charging circuits aren't charging circuits.
Plan to redesign the charging circuitry if you change battery chemistry,
or you'd better make sure your homeowner's insurance is up to date.

? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave

On 11/26/21 3:55 PM, Robin Szemeti wrote:
> No thanks, they were a crap battery when they first came out, they go
> bad with a lack of use, the technology? hasn't improved.? Volts are volts.
>
> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 20:50, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...
> <mailto:mcguire@...>> wrote:
>
>? ? ?On 11/26/21 3:48 PM, Robin Szemeti wrote:
>? ? ? > What would people recommend as a battery for an HP415E?? The
>? ? ?original
>? ? ? > battery option was a NiCd, but that tech is well past its sell by
>? ? ?date
>? ? ? > ... I guess Lithium of some flavour is the preferred option these
>? ? ?days
>? ? ? > .. anyone got suggestion for a suitbale pack?
>
>? ? ? ? ?Honestly, if it was designed for NiCd, I'd replace it with NiCd.
>? ? ?It's not like they've gone away or anything, we just don't use 'em for
>? ? ?phones and tablets.
>
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
>
>? ? ?--
>? ? ?Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
>? ? ?New Kensington, PA
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Re: Battery for HP 415E

 

开云体育

I think most of the guys doing antenna testing at the roundtables and etc. are doing something similar. We all have long cables but three little batteries are so much easier!

Steve
WB0DBS



On Nov 26, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Robin Szemeti <robin@...> wrote:

?
Thanks for that Steve, that isn't the worst solution I have heard either ... I just need ti for occasional use testing antennas in the field ... I'd rather not drag a mains cable out there really ...

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 21:51, Steve - Home <steve-krull@...> wrote:
Robin,

I disabled the charging circuit by pulling one leg of the resistor and attached three bog standard 9v batteries in series, stuck to the back panel with double sided foam tape. The current draw isn’t much and the batteries have lasted for years of intermittent use. It’s not fancy but it works. The local battery supply place wanted over $100 to build a replacement NiCd battery pack. I’ve got less than $10 in this solution and I figure it will outlast me.?

Steve
WB0DBS



On Nov 26, 2021, at 2:49 PM, Robin Szemeti <robin@...> wrote:

?
What would people recommend as a battery for an HP415E?? The original battery option was a NiCd, but that tech is well past its sell by date ... I guess Lithium of some flavour is the preferred option these days .. anyone got suggestion for a suitbale pack?

-- 
Best regards,

Robin Szemeti

Redpoint Consulting Limited 

E: robin@... 
T: +44 (0) 1299 405028 
M: +44 (0) 7971 883371 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE 
The information contained in this e-mail is intended only for the
confidential use of the above named recipient. If you are not the
intended recipient or person responsible for delivering it to the
intended recipient, you have received this communication in error 
and must not distribute or copy it. 
Please accept the sender's apologies, notify the sender immediately 
by return e-mail and delete this communication. 

Thank you.

Re: Battery for HP 415E

 

Thanks for that Steve, that isn't the worst solution I have heard either ... I just need ti for occasional use testing antennas in the field ... I'd rather not drag a mains cable out there really ...

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 21:51, Steve - Home <steve-krull@...> wrote:
Robin,

I disabled the charging circuit by pulling one leg of the resistor and attached three bog standard 9v batteries in series, stuck to the back panel with double sided foam tape. The current draw isn’t much and the batteries have lasted for years of intermittent use. It’s not fancy but it works. The local battery supply place wanted over $100 to build a replacement NiCd battery pack. I’ve got less than $10 in this solution and I figure it will outlast me.?

Steve
WB0DBS



On Nov 26, 2021, at 2:49 PM, Robin Szemeti <robin@...> wrote:

?
What would people recommend as a battery for an HP415E?? The original battery option was a NiCd, but that tech is well past its sell by date ... I guess Lithium of some flavour is the preferred option these days .. anyone got suggestion for a suitbale pack?

-- 
Best regards,

Robin Szemeti

Redpoint Consulting Limited 

E: robin@... 
T: +44 (0) 1299 405028 
M: +44 (0) 7971 883371 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE 
The information contained in this e-mail is intended only for the
confidential use of the above named recipient. If you are not the
intended recipient or person responsible for delivering it to the
intended recipient, you have received this communication in error 
and must not distribute or copy it. 
Please accept the sender's apologies, notify the sender immediately 
by return e-mail and delete this communication. 

Thank you.

Re: Battery for HP 415E

 

开云体育

Robin,

I disabled the charging circuit by pulling one leg of the resistor and attached three bog standard 9v batteries in series, stuck to the back panel with double sided foam tape. The current draw isn’t much and the batteries have lasted for years of intermittent use. It’s not fancy but it works. The local battery supply place wanted over $100 to build a replacement NiCd battery pack. I’ve got less than $10 in this solution and I figure it will outlast me.?

Steve
WB0DBS



On Nov 26, 2021, at 2:49 PM, Robin Szemeti <robin@...> wrote:

?
What would people recommend as a battery for an HP415E?? The original battery option was a NiCd, but that tech is well past its sell by date ... I guess Lithium of some flavour is the preferred option these days .. anyone got suggestion for a suitbale pack?

-- 
Best regards,

Robin Szemeti

Redpoint Consulting Limited 

E: robin@... 
T: +44 (0) 1299 405028 
M: +44 (0) 7971 883371 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE 
The information contained in this e-mail is intended only for the
confidential use of the above named recipient. If you are not the
intended recipient or person responsible for delivering it to the
intended recipient, you have received this communication in error 
and must not distribute or copy it. 
Please accept the sender's apologies, notify the sender immediately 
by return e-mail and delete this communication. 

Thank you.

Re: I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?

 

开云体育

Dave,

Understood and probably am and that is my next step. I never cross bridges before I get there but I do carry waders in my backpack.

Cheers

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device
Get

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Dave McGuire <mcguire@...>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 1:09:48 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?
?

?? Gene, forgive me, but you are overthinking this.? Just replace the
capacitors and test the module in a frame.? This is a very common,
well-known failure, and the most efficient way to get from point A to
point B here is to plug it in and see if this fixes the problem.

???????????? -Dave

On 11/26/21 4:07 PM, Gene Silvernail wrote:
> I' m poorly equipped, without assembly extension cables, to test powered
> which would be a plus. Has anyone tried to pipe 40 kHz to the 70900A PS
> board unloaded?
>
> Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device
> Get Outlook for Android <>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* [email protected]
> <[email protected]> on behalf of Gene Silvernail
> via groups.io <genesilvernail@...>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 26, 2021 1:00:00 PM
> *To:* [email protected]
> <[email protected]>
> *Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K
> system is old; good or bad omen?
> Hugh,
>
> I believe that makes sense it what I'm seeing on measurements (Q, DF,
> ESR)? taken with my DE-5000 meter. I measured in circuit and couldn't
> get any readings above 1kHz, e.d. 10 and 100 kHz. Cutting them loose
> produced same readings so meter as advertised was able to read in-circuit.
>
> As a comparison, I measured similar Al caps and was able to get 10 and
> in some cases 100 kHz believable values. Did this across various OEMs
> incuding USA, Japanese and PRC. As expected , the PRC caps showed worst
> of the lot with very few producing any readings above 1kHz.
>
> Panasonic FR caps will be ordered to replace the lot on the 70900A. As
> the condition of caps in the display, IF and RF are unknown, I need to
> composite a full list... just to cover my lower anatomy. Did Dr.
> Frankenstein ever ponder the economics of his rejuvenation efforts, I
> wonder.
>
> Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device
> Get Outlook for Android <>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* [email protected]
> <[email protected]> on behalf of Hugh Gilbert
> <gilbhugh@...>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 26, 2021 7:37:55 AM
> *To:* [email protected]
> <[email protected]>
> *Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K
> system is old; good or bad omen?
>? From my experience, new aluminum electrolytic capacitors will often
> measure 10-20% low on capacitance.
> Older caps that from nonuse need to be reformed will measure higher due
> to thinner dielectric.
> When the capacitors start to dry out due to electrolyte loss, the ESR
> will increase by 10X or more before the capacitance falls off.
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 2:34 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...
> <mailto:cfharris@...>> wrote:
>
>???? Perhaps, it is a cult, but I don't think so.? Cult-ship
>???? usually implies a blind following of a personality.
>
>???? ESR meter users are just happy that the instruments
>???? cut a lot of time and effort out of repairs.? Failed
>???? capacitors usually have very obvious ESR signatures: 10 to
>???? 1000x the expected ESR.
>
>???? If you are looking at 1.5 ohm measured ESR vs 1.25 ohm,
>???? expected ESR, as a sign of a failed capacitor, you are
>???? using the ESR meter wrongly.
>
>???? Capacitors have to get really bad before the circuitry
>???? will fail, in most cases.
>
>???? The dissipation factor is very useful for designing a
>???? power supply, but a bit awkward to use for repair purposes.
>
>???? Most meters that read DF need the capacitor out of circuit
>???? to give any sort of useful reading.? ESR meters measure
>???? at such a low voltage that the semiconductor part of the
>???? circuit is not activated.
>
>???? The other thing I notice is the ESR meters generally work
>???? at 50KHz, but bridges that measure DF are mostly 1KHz.
>
>???? 50KHz measurements usually mean a lot more to me when I am
>???? repairing switching power supplies, than does 1KHz.
>
>???? -Chuck Harris
>
>
>???? On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:44:14 -0500 "Dave McGuire"
>???? <mcguire@... <mailto:mcguire@...>> wrote:
>????? > On 11/24/21 6:40 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
>????? > >? ?? It may prove more useful to use dissipation factor rather than
>????? > > ESR even though both are a measure of the same thing. Since DF is a
>????? > > ratio of reactance to resistance it varies with frequency and may
>????? > > be more indicative of capacitor quality than plain ESR.
>????? > >? ?? There is a good, short article on DF at:
>????? > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissipation_factor
>???? <>>
>????? >
>????? >? ? You know, I keep telling people that, and people keep telling me
>????? > I'm crazy.? All converting DF to ESR does is introduce a frequency
>????? > dependency that gets in the way of deciding "good capacitor" or "bad
>????? > capacitor".? There's almost a "cult of ESR" these days, it seems.
>????? >
>????? >? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
>????? >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Re: Battery for HP 415E

 

Ah yes, NiMh!? I had (almost) forgotten about that, thank you!? I'll have a dig around!

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 21:13, Dave_G0WBX via <g8kbvdave=[email protected]> wrote:

??
From: Dave McGuire
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 12:50:06 PST

On 11/26/21 3:48 PM, Robin Szemeti wrote:

What would people recommend as a battery for an HP415E?? The original battery option was a NiCd, but that tech is well past its sell by date ... I guess Lithium of some flavour is the preferred option these days .. anyone got suggestion for a suitbale pack?

Honestly, if it was designed for NiCd, I'd replace it with NiCd. It's not like they've gone away or anything, we just don't use 'em for phones and tablets.

-Dave

Better choice is NiMh.? Better capacity than NiCd, less memory effect, and tolerant of the crude NiCd charger circuits.? But, will usually need more time to reach full charge due to better capacity.? Terminal voltages are very similar to NiCd in use and on charge.

Lithium is certainly the tech' of the moment, but unless you are going to change the charging and battery monitoring systems, to suit Lithium cell's (not trivial) best stick with what is known and is intrinsically safe.? Well, relatively safe.

73 Dave G8KBV


-- 
Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source software:
Re: Battery for HP 415E

 

开云体育

I thought NiMH was very picky about charging.? Was I wrong?? Are they okay with cell reversal?

?

Dave Wise

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave_G0WBX via groups.io
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 1:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Battery for HP 415E

?

??
From: Dave McGuire
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 12:50:06 PST

On 11/26/21 3:48 PM, Robin Szemeti wrote:

What would people recommend as a battery for an HP415E?? The original battery option was a NiCd, but that tech is well past its sell by date ... I guess Lithium of some flavour is the preferred option these days .. anyone got suggestion for a suitbale pack?

Honestly, if it was designed for NiCd, I'd replace it with NiCd. It's not like they've gone away or anything, we just don't use 'em for phones and tablets.

-Dave

Better choice is NiMh.? Better capacity than NiCd, less memory effect, and tolerant of the crude NiCd charger circuits.? But, will usually need more time to reach full charge due to better capacity.? Terminal voltages are very similar to NiCd in use and on charge.

Lithium is certainly the tech' of the moment, but unless you are going to change the charging and battery monitoring systems, to suit Lithium cell's (not trivial) best stick with what is known and is intrinsically safe.? Well, relatively safe.

73 Dave G8KBV

?

-- 
Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source software:
Re: Battery for HP 415E

 

The "charging circuit" is a 383 ohm resistor hung off the raw DC ... Li Ion is much less sensitive to charging than previous technologies. I'm sure it will be fine ... I was just interested if anyone knew af a decent Li 24V pack that woudl fit in the case ...


On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 21:01, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:

? ?Back in the day we thought they were just fine, because that's what
we had.

? ?Volts are volts, but charging circuits aren't charging circuits.
Plan to redesign the charging circuitry if you change battery chemistry,
or you'd better make sure your homeowner's insurance is up to date.

? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave

On 11/26/21 3:55 PM, Robin Szemeti wrote:
> No thanks, they were a crap battery when they first came out, they go
> bad with a lack of use, the technology? hasn't improved.? Volts are volts.
>
> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 20:50, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...
> <mailto:mcguire@...>> wrote:
>
>? ? ?On 11/26/21 3:48 PM, Robin Szemeti wrote:
>? ? ? > What would people recommend as a battery for an HP415E?? The
>? ? ?original
>? ? ? > battery option was a NiCd, but that tech is well past its sell by
>? ? ?date
>? ? ? > ... I guess Lithium of some flavour is the preferred option these
>? ? ?days
>? ? ? > .. anyone got suggestion for a suitbale pack?
>
>? ? ? ? ?Honestly, if it was designed for NiCd, I'd replace it with NiCd.
>? ? ?It's not like they've gone away or anything, we just don't use 'em for
>? ? ?phones and tablets.
>
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
>
>? ? ?--
>? ? ?Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
>? ? ?New Kensington, PA
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
31241 - 31260 of 151545